Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => W11x chassis cars => Topic started by: JedinDetroit on May 27, 2021, 18:24:06
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Hello fellow enthusiasts,
My name is jed. I live in the Detroit suburbs and I’ve been a Mercedes enthusiast for many years now. I have some history with W116, W108, W109 but just a picked up my first W111. A 66 250se coupe.
I found it locally through a broker who was selling it on the behalf of an estate from an elderly gentleman who is in failing health. Best I can tell the car hasn’t run in about 12 years and I bought it as a non-running vehicle. It appears fairly original and complete. During the first few weeks I did a major tuneup, overhauled entire brake system including two siezed calipers, replacing the shocks, flushing the fuel system and replacing all the ribber fuel lines I got the car running. It’s actually been running very well. Replaced some shift linkage bushings in the steering column for the automatic transmission which made a world of difference as the old ones had literally disintegrated. For my latest problem I’ve hit a brick wall.
But before I get into that I want to thank the board contributors for the immense amount of information regarding not only the W111 but more importantly the M129 engines. Information and posts have been so helpful with so many problems including dialing in my injection pump, cleaning a blocked cold start valve and so much more.
In any case I’m currently stumped on my frozen linkage on the transmission pressure modulator. I’ve had the classic hard shifts particularly when slowing down and after reading every possible post I could find on this topic I discovered that the linkage was seized. The 3 position solenoid is working however the linkage arm coming out of the transmission modulator is stuck. I’ve been spraying it with PB blaster for about 10 days with no success. I have tried to manhandle the linkage back-and-forth with some vice grips and it will not budge. I got to the point where I was bending the linkage arm so I backed off and straightened up the arm. I went so far as to partially remove the modulator down in the tunnel with the hopes that I could see the internals but I can’t get to them with the brown/black plastic intermediate plate in the way. I am stumped! I’m not sure what to do next. I have tried tapping on the arm with a light punch and mallet and again instead of the arm moving i found myself bending the arm. Short of removing the transmission so that I could properly access the passenger side of the transmission (even then i am not sure what i will do) are there any other options? I have read many posts about these linkage arms freezing up but only a couple posts about how to free it up with a lot of elbow grease and lube which has not worked for me. Surprisingly there’s very little corrosion on the exterior of the transmission so I’m wondering if perhaps there’s not something internally wrong that’s locked the linkage? I have the vehicle service manual but it really is quite limited on any transmission internals so i don’t really know what i would be dealing with internally.
Anyway sorry for the crazy long post and thanks in advance for any ideas on freeing up this pressure modulator linkage!! Ive attached a pic of the car on its way to its new home.
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someone put the 112 molding on it.
are your sure it's a 250SE?
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M300cab The car is a 250SE, I know the car and bought parts from the estate.
JedinDetroit.
Here is the TRUE story of the car...
The owner has been deceased for awhile, and he did not have a will. He owned this car along with 2 red 190SL a 1956 and 1957 and they have all been tied up in probate court. The attorney delegated the task of reconciling the cars to a paralegal whom which she is not a car person.
Even though she was not knowledgeable on classic Mercedes she knew the offers she was getting were people trying to steal them. So tired of dealing with these "wholesalers" she signed a contract to a consignment dealer that you bought the car from because he promised a $ figure for all 3 cars. The total of the 3 cars were nowhere near what was promised.
I remember there was rust on one of the front fenders behind the headlight, and then on one of the rear quarters below the rear bumper. I recommend getting those 2 areas taken care of sooner than later-the rest of the body looked pretty good.
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That's a really good looking colour combo - do you know the paint codes?
I think the side mouldings could be specified on any vehicle because many have them. I believe they were offered as standard on the 300SE.
Congratulations on the car.
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Vander,
thanks for the insight. Small small world....yes I saw both of the 190s. I was told one had sold but the other had not yet. I would think they would both be sold by now.
Do you happen to know anything more about my car? its history? how long it sat?
It has really been a joy so far, getting it running. I repaired some minor non structural rust on the under body. You are correct regarding the headlight rust and the rust around the rear wheel well which also extends to the spare tire well. I will most certainly have both repaired once I have the car running as it should.
thanks again
Peter, the colors are 181H and 408G I believe light beige and havana brown
Also, I suspect the chrome 112 molding may have been a factory option as there is a single option code I could not identify that I suspected may have been the molding, code 992 which I guess is a non coded option. The car has virtually no factory options, not even a factory radio, no AC, manual windows...really bare bones...i kind of like the simplicity, though it is a bit of pain to roll down the back windows driving down the road with no Air and the earlly spring heat :)
regards,
Jed
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Exterior color looks like DB 158 (grey white) and what is on my W128 220SE. I thought all 250Ses had the center hubcap and the outer trim ring? The wheel was then painted body color. These look like older 280SE wheel covers. Also, usually the hubcaps are painted body color unless it is a two tone or a cab model. The side mirror and rear view mirror look to be a 250SE though. Pretty car. This site is valuable for the W113 and the W111 as well since they all share similar mechanicals.
I do not believe any cars other than the 300SE had the extra chrome trim. I am sure if you had enough money and influence at the time, you get the dealer to add it to the car. These look to be add-ons because you can see the rubber gasket on the backside of the trim. The originals are heavy brass pieces where as the addons are lighter weight stainless with a rubber back piece. Many add these to hide damage on the wheel arch.
Sorry, can't help you on the trans issue. I suggest you post this in the regular SL113 section since this is a problem that is shared by W113 and W111 cars alike. All will learn!
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Hi Wallace
Not sure about the hubcaps. May have been replaced. They have certainly been repainted to match the roof (yes it’s two tone, Havana brown) so makes sense that they are not original to the car.
The paint codes are right off the plate under the hood but likely been repainted so I can’t say for sure what color she is now. I did order some touch up paint with the codes and it’s a pretty good match
The wheel well arches definitely have rubber trim below them so I guess they are added after the fact. Good to know.
Yes I would love to get some help with the trans issue. If I don’t get any help here in a couple days I’ll consider reposting on the 113 side but I’ll refrain from double posting for now.
Thanks
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Jed....try posting on the fintail.org forum too
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The replacement arches are stainless and you can usually tell apart. The ones in the picture look like chrome but hard to tell. I could be wrong about the rubber strip on the repro Vs. originals. The most conclusive way to tell is by what they are made of.
If you have paint made to the code and it matches your car, then that is a pretty good indication that what is on there is correct to the code. Not uncommon for the paint to be a shade different from the factory because of the different pigments and paint types now days.
I just looked it up and the hubcaps for the 250SE were two piece 14”. The 280SE had the one piece 14”. The 220SE also had a one piece cap but was 13” and had a a deeper dish than the 280SE. The original caps were chromed steel where as the replacements and cars built 70ish and after had stainless caps.
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Well I got a little fed up today and decided to just drive the car the way it is until the fall and give it another go at that time. So I put the pressure modulator back on put it all together topped off the transmission fluid and went for a spin. Unfortunately things went from bad went to worse. Now the car will not up shift. It seems to be stuck in either first or second gear. Not sure which gear it is but when I put the shifter in to 2 it never up shifts.Essentially it is stuck in a very low gear either first or second.
Ahh, the joys of working on your own car. Back to the drawing board.
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I wonder if there is a transmission shop in your area that is familiar with your transmission? Maybe the pressure setting is out of tolerance now and giving the new issues? Black Forest in WI can probably rebuild this if needed. Looks like a 6 hour drive from Detroit and not too bad.
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We had a very similar issue on a 280SL last week. After a lot of work, it finally freed up. Odds are the whole trans will need to come out. I've found that when the modulator isn't working right it can affect how the trans shifts.
Too bad the border is closed. Your car could certainly come to see us but not you in person right now.
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Jed, if you are serious about sorting out your issue (lots of people are all talk, no action or will spend years trying to do something themselves but never go to a pro) take your car to Motorwerks Group in Commerce Township. Speak first with the owner, Satish Tummala. My Pagoda is being finished up there now and I’m quite certain they can help.
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What a nice car. This group and site has been so helpful to me as well.
Question: Does your car have a working hydronuematic compensator installed?
Can't help with the tranny but I would be careful if you outsource getting it done that that you find a shop with experience and the special tools needed sometimes to do major jobs on these.
I also believe the wheel well and side chrome trim must have been added. If you ever repaint you could restore the original look if you wished.
Brad
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Gentleman,
thanks for the suggestions. Actually i truly enjoy working on my own cars, at least as much as I can. Unlike most people I take more joy from wrenching than I do driving my cars. Yes, I know, a bit weird...however, in this case I may be in over my head. Other than fluid and filter changes, and R&R, I've never really done any trans work before. Of course, if all else fails I will work my way to a specialist.
Mdsalemi, thanks for the suggestion. I am familiar with Sattish and his shop. If I remember correctly you were an officer of our local MB club? I've been reading your emails for years but sorry to say we never met. It seems you have moved south?
Dr Benz, where are you located in Ontario? I expect it wont be long before the border opens up again and from reading so many related threads it is clear my car would be in good hands with you. May I ask what it took to free up the linkage in the SL you recently worked on? Any tips to give me a chance?
bracurrie, thank you. Yes the car has a hydropneumatic compensator. Best I can tell its working. At first I was concerned about the stance of the car sitting a little low in the rear, but after looking at so many pictures of these cars it looks about right. I also have one in a 73 280SEL 4.5 (w108) that I have and that one sits way low in the rear and seems to be getting a little worse each year. I haven't decided If I will have that one rebuilt or replace it with the standard spring. As far as the trim, I kinda like it. I think it gives the car a more finished, classy look. Just my 2 cents. I am sure there are strong feelings both ways :)
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Mostly patience and it was seized tightly. Lots of penetrants and slowly working the lever back and forth and I was prepared to remove the transmission if necessary. This car hasn't been driven in 20 years and hasn't run in 10 so I expect lots to do.
I'm not very far from Algonac MI if the auto ferry was still running.
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Mdsalemi, thanks for the suggestion. I am familiar with Sattish and his shop. If I remember correctly you were an officer of our local MB club? I've been reading your emails for years but sorry to say we never met. It seems you have moved south?
Yes I moved south. Got a little fed up with the taxes, the cost of insurance in Michigan, and the infernal winters.
Yes I served on the board of the Mercedes-Benz club of America international stars section for many years…
Dr. Benz, Dan Caron: he’s quite close to Sombra Ontario which is just across the river from Marine City, Michigan. That’s just up at 94 to 32 mile Road. However the ferry from Marine City to Sombra is shut down (damage) and separate from that, so’s the border for casual transit. Presently what was a short and lovely drive is now impossible. He may as well be a million miles…😞
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I know its expensive to replace the hydro, but after driving a W108 with and without the hydro, I think the hydro is worth it. It's a great piece of automotive technology that is VERY unique. To me the stance of the car is important to its appearance.
I agree about the wheel well and added side chrome trim pieces being more classy. I am not an strident originalist about these cars, but I do like the correct wheels and tires. No white walls either as I had to brighten up too many when I was a kid.
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Well, still no luck freeing up the modulator linkage. It is STUCK! I'll probably try some kroil oil this week but I am not at all optimistic. If nothing changes and barring any other suggestions I will be pulling the trans as soon as I can find the time (hopefully this weekend). I am confident with the trans out I will have a much better chance of freeing it up.
I was so desperate the other day I nearly 'expanded' the cut out in the passenger footwell to allow direct access to the linkage! Yes, pure despair! Then I came to my senses and walked away.
Any other suggestions out there???
Joe from ohio? (I have read a zillion of your posts, you seem to be an expert on trans work. Any other ideas to free it up before the trans drop?
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Hello Jed, Do you know if the linkage is stuck at the top or down at the modulator or both?
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Hi Joe,
It’s definitely stuck at the bottom. I’m able to disconnect the ball joint at the top and while I can’t get it out completely because the linkage gets trapped between the ball and a mounting bolt I can get the solenoid to move freely. Definitely stuck at the bottom.
I’ve sprayed it for nearly 2 weeks now And it will not budge. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
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Looks like you need to remove the transmission support and allow the transmission to drop down so you can work on the stuck modulator pivot. You should have plenty of room without removing the transmission.
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Joe, when you say transmission support are we referring to the the rear mount? So if I remove the rear mount and leave the transmission attached to the bell housing/engine it should drop enough? So does the whole engine tilt with it? Sounds promising and certainly a better option than pulling the whole thing if I don’t have to.
Thanks!
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Made some progress today with Joes help.
I Lowered the trans and removed the modulator then removed the entire spring cover. Came out nicely. Now i am letting the kroil soak in.
I cant get the (bakelite) intermediate cover off to access the lower half of the actuating arm. There seems to be a little pin holding it on that i suspect moves in and out with actuating lever (which is seized).
No worries, time is my friend.
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Kroil is your friend too, that stuff is amazing.
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You might also try a different type of penetrant. Maybe the other type may have something else that works in this situation. Just a thought.
You should also try heat as long as there is nothing there that can be damaged. I would think a heat gun would suffice. That will activate any penetrant you use.
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Yeah i have heard that about kroil. I will find out shortly.
My wife wants to know why the kitchen smells funny??
Sshhh! 😉
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Thanks wallace. I believe there is a little rubber seal at the top of the shaft that keeps the fluid in (and I am not sure i can replace)?so avoiding heat for now.
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Looks like you have a grip on it now. A heat gun at distance should not hurt the seal. Work the shaft while still warm.
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If its not Moving by morning I will try the heat gun. At this point it will not budge. Not even a millimeter either way. Strange how it freezes up internally and there is really no external sign of corrosion.
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Free at last, free at last....I put it in the vise this morning and the lever freed right up with a little elbow grease. I started reinstalling today but I am on hold now waiting for a new trans mount as mine was falling apart. I am optimistically hopeful that she will shift again and properly this time. Ill let you all know how it goes when the parts come in and I have her back together.
thanks again for the guidance so far!
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So you have the tranny out?
Any thoughts on "while we are there"? Asking just to have it in the notes if I am in a similar situation: having tranny out for whatever reason, what are the things to look at and do?
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Actually no I took Joe’s advice and lowered the back of the tranny. Of course I had to release the exhaust and lower that with it. Surprising how much it came down. Hopefully I didn’t damage anything up on the engine side? Time will tell. So no no other projects other than the flex disk and the tranny mount that I’m going to replace at this time. There is a write up that I came across describing many of the suggested items to address while the tranny‘s out I’ll see if I can find a link.
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Update:
Well I have good news and bad. First the good; I replaced the rear trans mount, trans filter and cork gasket, replaced the flex disk, Changed the fluid and put it all back together. She is shifting again thru all gears na I am very happy to report that the brutal clunking I was getting while slowing down and a stop sign or light is completely gone. 100% better. This was most certainly the result of the seized trans to solenoid linkage that would not allow the linkage to shift back to low pressure during downshift.
The bad news is I am still having a rough and late upshift from 2to3, (but a remarkably smooth upshift from 3to4). I have spent several hours trying to adjust the modulator linkage arm, shorter, longer but no cure. Shortening gave me very erratic and harsh shifting. Lengthening gave me a little improvement in the 2to3 upshift, less clunky but still shifting too late and it made the 3to4 upshift too early.
So, next I tried to adjust the modulator itself. I turned it two full turns in (CCW), trying to decrease the pressure. The first test drive was very good. Earlier shift at 25kph and much less harsh, 3to4 shift was also appropriate at about 40kph. I thought I had succeeded however as things warmed up and I drove about 7 miles, the 2to3 shift got much harsher and clunky and later again. Ugh. Does that make any sense? that the shifting (pressures) would change as the temperature got warmer. I guess it would. So I spent the afternoon with trial and error, turned it in, out...nothing productive.
Very frustrated. I guess I will need to take a more scientific approach. Can anyone provide a source to get the appropriate M8 Banjo bolt and banjo fitting to attach a gauge and measure pressures. I suppose this is the best way to get closer.
Well at least the downshift clunking is gone! (felt like I was getting hit from behind everytime I slowed down)
Slow progress....
Any and all suggestions would be appreciated!
thanks
Jed
happy fathers day to all the fathers out there!
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Oh, by the way, the kickdown switch is now also working as it should (it didn't work at all before) and I have kept track of the original position of the linkage and the modulator adjustment screw so I can restore the 'original settings' if need be.
Jed
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I haven't been following all your posts but have you changed the trans fluid? It can cause bad 2-3 change... Also make sure the level is correct
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I have changed the fluid, filter and verified the level. Thanks Col
I ordered what I think is the correct M8 banjo fitting and a pressure gauge so I should be able to check the pressures and dial things in a bit better later this week (finger crossed).