Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => W11x chassis cars => Topic started by: hansr433 on February 12, 2021, 15:21:01
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My car runs rich, amongst some other probably related issues, and I found a trusted mechanic about 500km from my house who knows the early M127.984 engines. I want to do some simple things myself, such as proper linkage adjustment, before undertaking the trip to his garage and having the car transported there is not realistic due to cost. I found this video on youtube but it is for a different engine (SL). The adjustment starts about halfway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmwXC7j1dqA&feature=emb_logo
My intake manifold looks different. See attached photo. I am missing the nipple to insert the 10mm tube into in order to lock the assembly. The air intake mechanism also looks different from the one which Bergsma uses in his videos. Could a full member please check if the Link Tour in the restricted area covers my engine or only the SL types with a different manifold?
thanks
Hans
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Hello Hans,
Many the elements and specifications with your engine concerning the linkages adjustments are different than in "The Linkage Tour". For one thing, your engine uses the two piston injection pump. Some of your linkage rods are different lengths than the W113. For your car disconnect the linkages, make sure the intake venture stop is adjusted properly. Use or make the 10mm tool to align the linkage ball, then adjust the linkages rods so that both the intake lever and injection pump lever rest on their stops. Never unfasten and move the position of the lever on the injection pump.
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Hello Joe, thank you for the quick reply. I have a short length of 10mm OD tubing as seen the youtube video, but I cannot see where on the manifold it would be inserted in order to lock the linkage assembly. What am I missing or misunderstanding?
Hans
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Hans,
Your fuel injection system is obviously different to the Pagoda. Have a look at the red circle in my photo. This could be what Joe is referring to.
I am sure he will respond in due course, but in the mean time you could have a look see if that is what he meant.
Regards
Chris
Ps, I used to own a 220SE Coupe as well as a 220SE Cabrio
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Looks like there is a recess in the intake adjacent to the socket of the rod going to the venturi. Could that be the alignment spot? I have a 220SE engine, but is a Ponton. The pump is basically the same but the linkage system is very different. I do recall that in the service manual (starting 1959), there is extensive information on your injection system. May need to get that.
Like Joe said, the concepts of the adjustment are the same, but none of the actual dimensions are. Because this site is SL113, it covers the SL cars in detail. Some information is similar to the W111 cars and you have to sort that out. For whatever reason, there are no sites for W111 cars that are as well organized and extensive as this site. If you plan on working on the car yourself, the service manual will be your best friend.
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Thank you, Chris and Wallace. I do have the Maintenance manual and it talks about an angle measuring tool, etc, which I do not have. Thus trying to figure it out from resources available on the net (i.e. nice, helpful forum members).
Hans
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Hans,
Also adjust the rod which is attached to the bar which runs across the firewall to the accelerator pedal. This part of the linkage runs underneath the exhaust manifolds. Adjusting it is described in Job No 30-3. Mine was way off, this is probably often overlooked.
My initial suggestion (without too much deep thought) for comments on the forum
1. Disconnect the rod to the fuel pump.
2. Adjust the accelerator rod as described in Job 30-3 to get the full load position on the inlet right.
2. Check/adjust the rod / stops at the inlet so you know it is just slightly sticking closed with no throttle.
4. Adjust the length of the fuel pump linkage rod as required and reconnect it. As Joe says don't mess with the stop on the fuel pump.
5. Work the linkage and see how it looks to ensure both parts inlet/fuel are fully open and fully closed simultaneously.
6. See how it runs and try the split linkage test.
Hope this helps.
Peter
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To begin the adjustment of the linkage disconnect the rod going to the intake and the one going to the injection pump. Make sure that the lever on the intake is adjusted correctly so that the intake flap is completely closed but does not bind closed. Also make sure that the lever on the injection pump returns to its stop. cfm65@me.com is correct in his picture. The opening is the 10mm alignment bore. You can make your own alignment pointer by cutting a 10mm rod or tube or even a 10mm drill bit. After inserting the short rod into the bore, it should line up with the linkage ball center and this is the starting point for linkage adjustment.The special tools shown in the manuals, with degree scales should not be needed. Next adjust the rod going to the injection pump so it can be connected without moving the linkage ball off the 10mm center bore. lastly adjust the linkage rod going to the intake so it also does not disturb the alignment at the 10mm center bore. Never disturb the position of the linkage lever or its stop on the injection pump. It is critical that you read-up on the adjustment of the venture flap on the intake first. If yours an automatic transmission, shifting will be affected by a incorrectly adjusted intake flap. Once your linkages are correct, you can use the idle air screw and/ or the mixture thumb screw to smooth out your idle and adjust your idle fuel mixture. Try to read-up on the split linkage test to understand if your system is rich or lean after your linkage adjustment so you can adjust the mixture. As age and miles accumulate on your engine, the injection system tends to "wear rich" and may require some other more complex adjustments.
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Hi Joe,
I never knew the purpose of that socket on the inlet manifold so thanks for clarifying.
I will start again adjusting my linkages as you describe. I will also ponder how to make a special tool for this task.
Regards
Peter
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Awesome - thank you all who replied. I will post my experience in adjusting the linkage.
Hans
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Hi Peter, with a W113 engine, the alignment bore automatically should align once the injection pump linkage length is set to 233mm.
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I know this has been discussed before, but don't be surprised if the length of the rod is not exactly 233mm when the linkage is set with the alignment bore. Mine was off 2mm. Not much, but enough that it bothered me and I went back and checked everything and came up with the same result. Could have been any number of variables and the tolerances that stacked up. I went ahead and stayed with the alignment bore as the main guide. I guess that is pretty close considering 50+ years of wear and usage.
It can be quite shocking how badly these can be set up by people who are in over their heads. The PO for mine, like many, was using the stop screw on the Venturi as the idle speed adjustment. :o
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Hans,
I think maybe it’s time you spent $30 for Full Membership and gain full access to the Technical Manual of the Pagoda Group that has in there Joe Alexander (ja17) doing a complete video of the Linkage Tour that fully explains how to do all this rather than just asking questions on the individual parts of the Tour from restricted areas of our Tech Manual.
Just saying 😉😉🥱😳
Garry
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Some cars won't have any alignment holes or places to reference rod length. If I remember correctly, the BBB says to use the 233mm measurement in the absence of any other option.
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Hans,
Regarding the lengths of the linkage rods. Next week I will go through mine as described and then take some measurements.
It is worth comparing our values as these early cars (pre 64) are not the same as a W113 230SL. The 233mm may not be correct.
Regards
Peter
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The pump rod measurement more than likely will not be the same as the SL or the 250/280SE cars. Those used six plunger pumps and the 220SE cars always had the two plunger pump. Completely different set up. Would be nice to have those dimensions documented.
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The pump rod measurement more than likely will not be the same as the SL or the 250/280SE cars. Those used six plunger pumps and the 220SE cars always had the two plunger pump. Completely different set up. Would be nice to have those dimensions documented.
Precisely!
@Gary, not trying to be clever and circumvent access to the restricted material, but my original question was meant to find out if this material is relevant to my specific model, which is does not seem to be.
Of note to other owners with M127.984 engines - the alignment bore on my manifold is a tad smaller than 10mm, so the choice is to bore it out to 10mm, or ask my friendly machine shop to make me a specific rod of 9.6mm OD and 8.5mm ID. I did my linkage alignment, and was off by a tiny amount. Now I have to wait for the snow to melt before doing a trial run. While I was under the hood, I checked the airfiliter and found it to be wrong. The photo shows the installed filter sitting on the packing of the correct filter. My plugs (Bosch WR 7DC) looked sooty, so I replaced them with NGK BP6ES gapped to 0.8mm. As a reminder to all readers, my engine was rebuilt approx. 4000km ago at a cost in excess of $13000 and is now burning oil. Needless to say that I am less than happy with the company which did the work.
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One more question on the split linkage test. What does it mean if moving either the pump (adding only fuel) or the intake rod (adding only air) cause the RPM to drop? Does it it mean that the engine is adjusted correctly? When the linkage is all connected, the engine revs nicely without hesitation or pops.
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Correct, the linkage must be disconnected (split) to do the test. However when moving open the split intake linkage, a slight rpm increase is best (up to 200 rpms). Otherwise the idle adjustment screw could not function properly.
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Thank you, Joe.
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Hi Hans
I'm not a mechanic, but the plugs look sooty (too rich) rather than oily (rings or valve seals)
Others may have a different opinion, but things should clear up if you get the mixture/linkages set up.
I have a 220seb also with the later M127 engine. I'm very interested in hearing the rod dimensions for these engines. I will try the process in parallel to compare notes. Mine isn't running badly, but the alignment the '10mm OD rod' hole is off by a significant amount and wide open throttle isn't achieved before the fuel pump is on it's stop.
I didn't realise there was an alignment for the pedal itself, is this completed after or before the rod linkage alignment?
All the best
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Hello Australia,
Until I am able to drive the car the recommended 20km, to thoroughly warm the engine up, and then check the plugs, I am unable to tell whether the adjustment has done some good. My gas consumption was WAY up there at 20l/100km, so probably there are other factors at play than just a linkage adjustment. At least I feel better having done what I can before undertaking a 500km trip to a recommended mechanic. If there are any Italian W111 owners from Tuscany, Umbria or Lazio reading this, whom would you bring your car to to have the motor diagnosed and repaired?
I also noticed that the main linkage rod has a bit of play. The 2 bushings holding the rod in place should have been replaced during the rebuild, but who knows after all the omissions and botched repairs I found. How tight should this rod be? Can someone perhaps do a short video of moving the rod laterally by hand? Here is a link to my video of me moving the rod.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f3dfu0j2feigw44/MB%20220SE%20Main%20throttle%20linkage%20movement.MOV?dl=0
What are the thoughts on the movement?
thanks
Hans
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Hi Hans,
I checked mine as I have replaced both bushings. There is some axial play (a mm or two) but zero radial.
regards
Peter
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Peter, thank you for the feedback. Was it a big job to replace the bushings? Would you still have the parts numbers?
best,
Hans
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The job is easy Hans. There are some little spring clips which keep them in place. I think you just have to pop them in and out with a small amount of force. Have a look but it is certainly not a challenge.
Part No 1270720185
I bought from MBClassics @ 5.95 each - possibly reproduction but they fitted fine.
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Hans,
Just remembered...in order to fit the one which sits above the spark plug wires you have to remove the end piece from the linkage. The part with the ball to connect the fuel pump linkage rod. That was fiddly, a small pin retains it and you need something of really small diameter to drive it out.
Regards
Peter
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Thanks Peter.
Would anyone following this thread be able to post a detail photo of their 2-cylinder fuel pump, which shows how the cold start thermostat housing fits? I took the top of the housing off to check the movement of the thermostat and now i cannot get to fit back tightly. I am attaching a photo of how mine fits now for reference and want to confirm if this is the correct fit. There was no gasket between the top and the bottom, and now it looks as if water could leak between the 2 metal surfaces.
thanks.
Hans
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The housing does don't clamp down all the way. It is a compression fit and a gap is normal. If it does not leak, its fine.
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My 220 SE Ponton injection pump (ZEA) has a phenolic spacer between the housing and the pump body. It is sort of oval shaped with flat edges and about 3/16" thick. I didn't see that on yours and then looked around at other 220SE Fintail pumps (ZEB) on the internet. The ones I could find did NOT have the same spacer I have. So maybe the Pontons had it and the Finatils didn't. The pumps did have some significant differences but were both basically similar two plunger style pumps. You could call an injection pump rebuilder and they would know for sure.
Joe is correct (as usual) that the thermostats seal to the housing by compression. You can add a thin layer of sealer for insurance, but you shouldn't need it. And yes, there should be a small gap between the housing and the pump body.
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Joe and Wallace - thanks for your replies. As you can probably tell, my experience working on a W111 is extremely limited. I am better with vintage BMW bikes.
Here is what my housing looks like, open. Do you see any issues I should address before putting it all together? BTW, how is the thermostat removed if one wants to test it?
Hans
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The thermostat bulb is in the housing that has the coolant lines going in and out. It should come out with no force, but may be corroded in. The thermostat is brass and the housing is steel BTW. Do you have your coolant drained at the moment? If not, you will get a rush of coolant coming out the housing when the bulb comes out. Drain it first.
Also while there, check the small hex head screw to the left. It has an offset pin that when rotated, will lower the mechanism and effectively disarm the WRD operation. You would do this if the thermostat bulb is stuck in the cold position. Make sure the offset pin it is not in the position where it is pushing the piston down.
Do you know that your thermostat bulb is working?
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It doesn't hurt to add a drop or two of thin oil on that sliding piston while you have it open.
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The thermostat bulb is in the housing that has the coolant lines going in and out. It should come out with no force, but may be corroded in. The thermostat is brass and the housing is steel BTW. Do you have your coolant drained at the moment? If not, you will get a rush of coolant coming out the housing when the bulb comes out. Drain it first.
Also while there, check the small hex head screw to the left. It has an offset pin that when rotated, will lower the mechanism and effectively disarm the WRD operation. You would do this if the thermostat bulb is stuck in the cold position. Make sure the offset pin it is not in the position where it is pushing the piston down.
Do you know that your thermostat bulb is working?
Wallace, I am about to check. The motor is full of coolant and I would hate to drain it. Is it safe to clamp the 2 coolant lines with a Vicegrip or similar to avoid the coolant rush, or will this destroy the hoses?
Which hex screw are you referring to?
I made little video of moving the plunger (?). The movement seems firm but smooth.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4789zv3c7rk763q/MB%20220SE%20Cold%20Start%20Plunger.mov?dl=0
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Great advice. I have some 3-in-1 oil, or should I just use clean motor oil?
Hans
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Your 3 in 1 is fine, auto transmission fluid, a thin synthetic motor oil etc.
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You don't have to take thermostat out if you don't want to. I thought you mentioned that you did. Yes, hose clamps pliers will help some. Having coolant drain out is a problem in that you don't want it getting into the pump and all over the plunger below. Other that, it is just a small mess.
The head of the screw with offset pin is between the WRD housing and the red "OEL" cap. If you can push your plunger down a bit, that screw is probably not set in the disarm position and I wouldn't worry about it.
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Is it safe to clamp the 2 coolant lines with a Vicegrip or similar to avoid the coolant rush, or will this destroy the hoses?
You can cover the vice grip jaws with two sockets. This will provide a smooth surface when clamping the hoses. Or you can buy a specific tool that does the same job.
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Thank you for your answers. I have circled the bolt in red what I think Wallace is talking about, but not moved it yet. Is that the bolt used for locking the plunger? Also, the brass plate has a cutout circled in red. If this plate were turned clockwise a bit until it reaches the small pin, then the plunger assembly would probably rise since it is spring loaded. It is currently in the correct working position?
I started another thread "M127.984" with some videos of me testing the thermostat and the engine hunting and will continue to post there. If one of you has some thoughts on why the engine is behaving like this, please let me know.
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Yes, that is the bolt I am talking about. My understanding is that you press the bolt in and then rotate the bolt to the right 90*. The pin is offset and will move the plunger down far enough so the pump is locked in full warm mode. If the pin is in the upper position then it allows the thermostat to act on it. This is described in the workshop manual for Passenger cars starting 1959. It is on page 07-10/12. The bolt is #59 in that illustration.
I have never completely torn my WRD down on this this car like I have the later 280SE. So I am not as familiar with the internals. Not sure I am aware of the notch in the brass piece.
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Hans,
For the record I have adjusted the linkages and came up with 237/238 mm centre to centre on the fuel injection pump rod.
Regards
Peter
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To make this clear to casual readers, this is for a 1963 W111 with the two plunger injection pump. Not a W113.