Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: john.mancini on January 13, 2021, 00:59:26
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Holy $hy?%#! I'm sure that many of you have seen the lofty prices that sub par Pagodas are fetching on Bring a Trailer. There are a lot of first time W113 buyers who are throwing big money at these cars. Maybe they're right and I'm wrong.
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Because BaT is a playground for people with WAYYYYYY too much money...
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Is it time to sell my no.2 1963 230 SL?
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As said elsewhere many times, BaT is not a place to go when you in the market to buy. If you have a piece of mediocre crap for sale, you will get more there than anywhere else.
Just compare prices on BaT with those at life auction events like Mecum or Barret-Jackson
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I wrote something on bat about this car. Unfortunately it has not been published.
But there were references to this pagoda, the buyer has been informed about the car. But he stuck to the people who praised the glossy paint.
Peter
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I wrote something on bat about this car. Unfortunately it has not been published.
But there were references to this pagoda, the buyer has been informed about the car. But he stuck to the people who praised the glossy paint.
Peter
Which one?
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The red one.
Peter
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This is not unique to 113
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There is one BAT commenter that callout members of this site for pointing out incorrect items or major potential problems with the cars for sale. It is quite sad that a few buyers may be in way over the value then to make it right to have to spend that again. I guess if I had millions of dollars I wouldn't feel that way...
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See attached.
I don't think the nice-looking graph is of much value without other metrics thrown in, such as model (280 does better than 230 but not always) and some kind of assessment of condition.
As with a lot of data, throw out the outliers (high and low) and look at a trend line, and if you do that from a seat of the pants analysis, I see prices moving from the $50K to $70K range in 3-4 years. But, without that condition assessment, it's all just a bunch of numbers...
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I believe classic care prices are going up in general. Who want to invest in DOW 31,000 or bonds at zero interest. The Mecum auction I watched just a few days ago was at almost a 100% sale through rate.
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I believe classic care prices are going up in general. Who want to invest in DOW 31,000 or bonds at zero interest. The Mecum auction I watched just a few days ago was at almost a 100% sale through rate.
I would never think of a car as an investment. And I understand the reluctance to poor more money into an already over-valued stock market. So there really isn't a good solution for what to do with money, other than to be happy you have it...
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I believe classic care prices are going up in general. Who want to invest in DOW 31,000 or bonds at zero interest. The Mecum auction I watched just a few days ago was at almost a 100% sale through rate.
...and then, your Porsche Turbo sold too low, John, IMO!
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...pour more money into an already over-valued stock market.
If you bought a Tesla Model S a year ago, it would have cost you just north of $80,000.
If you bought 750 shares of Tesla stock instead at that time, at about that same investment, today you'd have enough for that Tesla S...and probably over $500,000 in the bank.
Overvalued? Could be...you just have to know when to buy and when to sell.
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If you bought a Tesla Model S a year ago, it would have cost you just north of $80,000.
If you bought 750 shares of Tesla stock instead at that time, at about that same investment, today you'd have enough for that Tesla S...and probably over $500,000 in the bank.
Overvalued? Could be...you just have to know when to buy and when to sell.
? Maybe I should be thinking about bitcoin....
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Yes, collector car prices are going up. I really should know better, but following some of these Pagoda BaT auctions is like watching a train wreck in progress. I can't turn away! There have been quite a few tremendous overbid mistakes by some very unsuspecting buyers. Sellers get nasty when shortcomings are pointed out. Many of these buyers will become W113.org members. Buyer Beware.
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Yes, collector car prices are going up. I really should know better, but following some of these Pagoda BaT auctions is like watching a train wreck in progress. I can't turn away! There have been quite a few tremendous overbid mistakes by some very unsuspecting buyers. Sellers get nasty when shortcomings are pointed out. Many of these buyers will become sl113.org members. Buyer Beware.
Many of them won't become sl113.org members. They are just rich guys with no particular interest in Pagodas. I don't think BaT is a good barometer for car prices - it's all over the map. I agree that there have been some overbid mistakes, but most of the people doing the overbids don't seem to care...
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I think you are 100% correct.
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Yes, maybe some of these people bought bit coins 5 years ago. Then it does not matter.
Peter
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BaT--and I have no affiliation with them, and not much care about them or the guy who founded them--is absolutely no different than any other "venue" to sell a car. They run an auction. So does Whether you do a sealed bid/bid sale, consign to a boutique dealer (and there are plenty of those all around the world) or consign to one of the major auction houses, the complaints echoed HERE have been similar for years. Everyone will pick apart what they see (without actually seeing it of course) to the "nth" degree.
Auction houses that actually take possession of a car have been accused of "tarting up" a car to make it look good. Ditto for the showrooms.
Prices have been both underbid and overbid on auctions. Closed sales have been both good and bad price wise, depending on when, and the car, and a hose of other criteria. An otherwise uneducated buyer of any vehicle may very well end up paying too much. A highly educated buyer in the right place at the right time can do exceedingly well.
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Michael: I don't think the sentiments are directed against BaT as an organisation, but rather against the environment that is represented. And that, of course, is largely created by the people who are there and participate in the banter.
One thing, however, REAL criticism of prices and vehicles does not fly on BaT. People who dare to speak up are being censored.
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Michael: I don't think the sentiments are directed against BaT as an organisation, but rather against the environment that is represented. And that, of course, is largely created by the people who are there and participate in the banter.
One thing, however, REAL criticism of prices and vehicles does not fly on BaT. People who dare to speak up are being censored.
...and I simply offer, it's not much different than any other place. It's just another place to buy and sell cars. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Hi all. I recently sold my very nice '71 Pagoda on B a T. Did not get a high price for it, but I wasn't greedy, and pleased the new owner was enthusiastic. He joined the Pagoda SL Group before even seeing the car. Conversely, I sold my Alfa Montreal, also on B a T, and got way more than expected due to a last minute bidding war. Never can tell.
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...Did not get a high price for it...got way more than expected due to a last minute bidding war. Never can tell.
My emphasis added. You never can tell. There are those that buy and sell regularly (at least they did prior to the world virus situation) on/at major auctions, and must carefully hope and pray for good positioning (early vs late) and hope that a fog hasn't clouded over an otherwise normal auction where many prices are down. Some auction houses insist upon no reserve; some sellers won't sell w/o it knowing that some weirdness can always pop up when something goes for way less than it should just due to the set of circumstances at that exact moment.
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...and I simply offer, it's not much different than any other place. It's just another place to buy and sell cars. Nothing more, nothing less.
Actually Michael I think it is quite different. It provides entertainment for the arm chair car collector and a venue for rich people who don't want to get off their asses to go look at cars in person. Granted, that's not all of the people on BaT, but it does seem to be a majority. It's like on-line gambling in a way - entertainment you can get at your computer, except you end up with a prize!!! (A possibly over-priced car). And _then_ what do you do with it? I _really_ wonder about these crazies who buy things like TANKS on BaT. Really? Does someone want or need a tank????
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Before BAT we would have to travel to an auction, get a hotel room & pay a fee per person of $300 or so to see and bid on cars. With BAT no fee to get in and 5% buyer fee is less that what you paid before to the auction houses and it is capped at $100K or $5,000. So it can be a helpful tool we didn't have before.
You always need to educate yourself before buying and resources our Pagoda SL Group offers is a great place to start. That will help you filter out the good banter from the bad on BAT. You may find a car to bid on in BAT, but you need to know when to walk away and check other places like Hemmings etc.
Maybe with stock market at high values, interest rates super low. You might have people now investing in cars that weren't before?? If they are less knowledgeable & paying too much. If we are buying, be careful. If selling, might be a good time?
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There's also Ebay? It seems many people buy and sell vehicles there, and it's an auction site as well.
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Here in the UK there are some very silly prices being paid. I went to a local Auction a couple of months ago and this 250 Pagoda was sold for £25000 plus the auction costs so about £28000 total. ($38,000 ish)
It was totally rotten, many chrome parts missing, someone had "had a go" at replacing panels - very badly. I would honestly think it was scrap or ok for some (few) parts.
Seems a lot of money for a car that needs 100% rebuild.
https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2020-12-12/cars/ref-81-1967-mercedes-benz-250sl-pagoda-dg/
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In addition to the cars, on BaT, certain sellers are being hyped up by the comments. Right now, there is a red 1968 280SL that is restored supposed to be set to fetch a record price for a W113.
While the restoration is nice, it is far from close to what the original car was and thus the value is debatable. But because of the seller's supposed reputation, many are all up in arms about it. I don't know if i would pay 80k for it.
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I just looked at the red 280SL that Mike has referred to. Yikes! At least the restorer put in the fake, perfectly spaced, inner fender welds. ;) ;)
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There's also Ebay? It seems many people buy and sell vehicles there, and it's an auction site as well.
Yes, Cees--my point exactly. And, Hemmings, too.
Don't forget that most of the auction houses, during the times of Covid (where we still are) have pivoted to models that include remote bidding, online auctions, and all other manner of sales where you don't have to "travel to an auction, get a hotel room & pay a fee per person of $300 or so to see and bid on cars."
Be reminded that for the formerly large attended auctions (such as those at Scottsdale) attracted large numbers of people who WANTED to get on a plane, pay an entrance fee, blah blah blah, because that was, to them, "an event" even if they weren't buying. Based on attendance at places (pre-Covid) like Scottsdale, those surrounding Amelia, Pebble, etc. it was a successful model.
What the feature of BaT seems to be is the ability for armchair people to sit back and comment on things remotely. Some of the comments are interesting on the red Pagoda. While the price is $120K now, it is far from "a record" for a restored car. Someone picked up on the US spec car with a km/h speedo; that's worth a query. The seller put the wrong steering wheel on for a photo and it got by...but was picked up on.
Good luck to both buyer and seller on that!
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wrong, right, whatever. I think most buyers of 113s don't really care. They just like the car and want it to look and drive well, which many do. Some prefer the mods, both cosmetic and mechanical. I think the 113 appeal is that it's a very "modern" vintage car; comfortable, functional, great to drive, easy to live with and great to "show up" in. And, it appeals to women too.
There also seems to be a negative bias here towards perceived "rich" people. BAT has sold some very sophisticated cars to what have to be knowledgeable, sophisticated and rich buyers.
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An earlier conversation we had about this seller.
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=23900.msg172293#msg172293
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My takeaway from this discussion:
Looking to sell? Use BAT
Looking to Buy? Look elsewhere.
As with any auction site for any product, the final price is what the market will pay at a given moment. How educated the market is about the product is almost irrelevant. Sellers who are proud and honest about their offering, welcome discussion and feedback. Those that are looking to pass along their problems to others can be creative, deceitful and plead ignorance. Both groups are out there. Always will be. This applies to anything being sold. Caveat emptor.
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I think that BAT is great entertainment for anyone who loves classic cars. The pictures, presentations and comments are fun to look at and you get to see some unique cars. What's not to like?
I view BAT almost daily just for fun.
Would I buy a car sight unseen from BAT ? No. But I would buy a car from BAT if I could inspect in person.
Just my opinion.
jz
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It makes you wonder. Here's a red 280SL on BaT, with a faked data plate, a made up data card, mis-matched body panels, poorly reproduced inner fender welds, and more, that sells for over $150K, (including the buyer's premium). What's an original, documented W113 worth? The argument about matching numbers being important to buyers just got shot to hell.
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Oh dear, I obviously sold mine much to cheaply - but I feel good about it, as it was an honest deal for both buyer and seller !!
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Here in the UK there are some very silly prices being paid. I went to a local Auction a couple of months ago and this 250 Pagoda was sold for £25000 plus the auction costs so about £28000 total. ($38,000 ish)
It was totally rotten, many chrome parts missing, someone had "had a go" at replacing panels - very badly. I would honestly think it was scrap or ok for some (few) parts.
Seems a lot of money for a car that needs 100% rebuild.
https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2020-12-12/cars/ref-81-1967-mercedes-benz-250sl-pagoda-dg/
I’m sure the seller was reasonably chipper about it
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It makes you wonder. Here's a red 280SL on BaT, with a faked data plate, a made up data card, mis-matched body panels, poorly reproduced inner fender welds, and more, that sells for over $150K, (including the buyer's premium). What's an original, documented W113 worth? The argument about matching numbers being important to buyers just got shot to hell.
John: This particular auction clearly illustrates one of the problem issues with BaT. Certain auctions are being hyped up by members of the audience because of the seller. Some others with "reputations" in the field, compliment and praise the seller and thus the item for sale must be outstanding.
That car is a collection of different parts from different W113 specifications, and while probably nicely done and in great shape, it will never have a spot among top originally restored SLs.
In addition, I would be careful about buying a car that was finished in the Dominican Republic and then brought to the U.S. for sale.
If you would make a comment to that on BaT, you would probably be flagged as "non constructive"
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That car is a collection of different parts from different W113 specifications, and while probably nicely done and in great shape, it will never have a spot among top originally restored SLs.
In addition, I would be careful about buying a car that was finished in the Dominican Republic and then brought to the U.S. for sale.
If you would make a comment to that on BaT, you would probably be flagged as "non constructive"
But, the buyer wasn't looking for a spot among top originally restored SLs. That's what too many in this audience don't seem to appreciate, there's an entire market (demand) for non-original-correct 113s. The universe of buyers for 113's is bigger than 113 originalists.
I've seen another restoration by the Dominican Republic restorer. It's not a car I would buy, and not because of incorrectness.
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For everyone’s information we at one time had a very active member here who even showed up at a PUB in Blacklick Ohio at least once who was from Santo Domingo Dominican Republic.
Maybe it’s the same operation that is restoring these cars showing up on BaT?
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For everyone’s information we at one time had a very active member here who even showed up at a PUB in Blacklick Ohio at least once who was from Santo Domingo Dominican Republic.
Maybe it’s the same operation that is restoring these cars showing up on BaT?
That would most likely be the same place and owner. I've been to this place in the DR and saw their work. Picking on one place seems unfair when no one is restoring these cars to their original condition for a moderate price.
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Picking on one place seems unfair when no one is restoring these cars to their original condition for a moderate price.
I don't know if it's picking or not, but the example I saw had serious shortcomings, and I'm not talking about correctness. Did you drive one? I did.
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Mike,
You raise some very good points. I am watching the BaT auction of the light ivory 70 280 SL. The latest comment is from another seller/dealer vouching for the current seller. What the forum needs is input from knowledgeable enthusiasts, not one used car salesman cheering on another!
Mike
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I don't know if it's picking or not, but the example I saw had serious shortcomings, and I'm not talking about correctness. Did you drive one? I did.
No, nothing was drivable during the time I was there which was for about a week. That was 9 years ago and I'm thinking their work has improved over time. So what was wrong with the car you drove?
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My initial point regarding BaT was that there were very high prices being paid for "sub-par" Pagodas. It really had nothing to do about originality, just the poor quality of many of the W113's that were being auctioned. Mike, you're right, negative comments are now highly criticized and flagged as non-constructive. I once felt the need to chime in on BaT but have since learned that most bidders don't want to hear any "critical" facts about the cars. Now I just sit back and enjoy the train wreck. ;D ;D
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No, nothing was drivable during the time I was there which was for about a week. That was 9 years ago and I'm thinking their work has improved over time. So what was wrong with the car you drove?
To be honest, I don't remember. I just remember the owner (acquaintance of mine and friend of a friend) had to have a lot of stuff sorted out by Black Forest and then ended up selling it at a loss. I remember on close inspection, a number of corners were cut. I'm not making a statement about all of their restorations (how would I know), but this one was clearly lacking.
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A bit late to the discussion here, and maybe I'm in the minority, but I enjoy watching BAT auctions on the cars I care about. There aren't many other auction venues where the car can be vetted online for days ahead of time. Yes, some of the questions and comments are silly, ill-informed or irrelevant, but there are also a lot of helpful discussions for any potential buyer who may not be an expert in a particular make and model. And it's free entertainment when you've got nothing better to do.
That said, I have noticed a tendency for dealer sellers to get what appears to be their dealer friends praising the car to goose up interest and bids. Not sure that always works. And with Pagodas, in particular, there are a couple of "cheerleader" posters who attack any criticisms as "nitpicking." To me, the nitpicking is what helps inform the buyers. And occasionally, even as a longtime Pagoda owner, I learn a thing or two. They are supposed to have a rule about not attacking personalities, which doesn't seem to be regularly enforced. I haven't had any "non constructive" censorship of my critical comments, but I try to be constructive.
As with any auction, if there are two or more bidders who really want the car and get caught up in "winning," prices can go above market. Classic cars often are an emotional purchase, not a rational one. And it does seem that with recent Pagodas, emotion and a nice paint job have overruled common sense. So be it.
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I’m sure the seller was reasonably chipper about it
;D
He was!
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Very late to the discussion.
I just purchased an original 230sl on bat
I’ve followed the car my entire life last viewed in 2017 prior the dealer getting it. I feel like it wasn’t cheap and I’m an enthusiast level car guy. That said it’s the only rust free pagoda that I’ve known for my entire life. Since the auction ended the selling dealer has been contacted buy another buyer asking how much for me to step aside on the purchase.
So did I buy right?? I’m not sure.
Apparently Lowell?? From this group wanted the pictures for Baseline records to help determine originality of other cars.
Love to hear your comments.
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The other dealer wants to do a flip sell. I know you paid a lot but if you really want the car it will be in a good home with you. If he offers you some ridiculous amount like $50,000-$100,000 to walk away then do it and find another original one. A tough call...
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That’s along the lines of what I was thinking.
I’ll never see it again if I let it go.
Any idea who it was that wanted the pictures from this group for authenticity data?
I’d love to chat as I had a few minor improvements in mind but don’t want to spoil originality.
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i_ralley,
Welcome to the forum. Congratulations on your purchase. I would hang tight unless an over the moon offer to walk away materializes.
As far as improvements are concerned, one of the strengths of our forum is the knowledge, experience and wisdom of the collective group. You can feel free to post your ideas or ask questions in the various threads on the forum and be assured of getting good advise, answers and feedback. Your car is very original and provides a good reference for many details. That being said, all of our cars have a few warts and with a little effort you can work through those on your car.
You joined as a full member giving you full access to our technical manual. Familiarization with the contents would be a worthwhile exercise.
The search function at the top of the page is also a very valuable tool.
Again welcome to the forum.
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From what I have read, here and elsewhere, I think you waited a very long time to realize your dream, much longer than the 14 years I waited to become the current custodian of my 230SL. Keep it and cherish it. Many of us here will be waiting to hear of your first drive and meet you at a future Pagoda Group event.
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Thanks for the advise
The improvements I was thinking of was a little surface rust under the trunk Matt on One side.
Two spots under the cargo covers behind the seat and pealing paint on the bottom
Of the fuel tank
The car is at one the top shops in Canada where it had been maintained.
So my thought was cost would be very low
We can document the touch ups.
It’s very minor and I will always store the car in a heated dry place but why leave those spots.
They are on the auction photos
Everything on the car functions as original so nothing else is needed.
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Hi,
Seems a great car, I viewed the video - drives and sounds good!
I see you are in Port Alberni so no doubt you've seen the car many times. If only you could have found it for sale before the dealer did!
It's interesting to see how the body has held up in the northwest. The climate there seems much friendlier to the paint and the tex, compared to California where my car lived. But not so good for corrosion. The surface rust you can probably keep at bay with rust converter and penetrating oil but watch out for the patch of rust on the hardtop pillar.
For those who haven't pored through the 300 photos, it is nice :)
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The car was always garaged and from the 80’s till present moved to Victoria where it basically attended car shows and Sunday cruises.
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It's interesting to see how the body has held up in the northwest. The climate there seems much friendlier to the paint and the tex, compared to California where my car lived. But not so good for corrosion. The surface rust you can probably keep at bay with rust converter and penetrating oil but watch out for the patch of rust on the hardtop pillar.
I agree that the small areas on the trunk floor may benefit from careful cleaning and application of POR-15, as may the hidden areas under the parcel shelves. When I viewed the 300+ photos on the auction website the area of corrosion near the base of the hardtop pillar adjacent to the chrome rear window surround was of the greatest concern, due to what additional damage may lurk out of sight in what can be a critical area for corrosion perforation and loss.
Just to prevent a future issue, I think that one of the two small square pads that protect the underside of the soft top lid from being dimpled/damaged by the windscreen latching screws when the top is stowed may be missing. A replacement square should be easily created and glued in place, provided one can source some rubber material of similar thickness.
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Great thanks I appreciate the help
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i_ralley,
There are a couple of other things that you might want to consider putting on your "to do" list. The firewall pad is in pretty rough shape and if I were you this is one of the first things I would consider replacing. Another item to consider is the paint inside the trunk. If you are going to address the minor rust there, you will be doing some painting. I would return to the proper color in place of the glossy black there now which takes away from the originality of the car as a whole. The missing trunk lid decals can be replaced after re-paint.
These items are not urgent but can be taken care of before the beginning of the driving season. Wishing you all the best with your car.
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This is the debate I don’t want to change the nature of the car.
Also don’t want to leave anything that could adversely effect the car.
Does keeping certain patina benefit the story and originality of the car.
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Fix what is necessary to prevent deterioration and maintenance to keep it in good running condition. Keep it clean and drive it.
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Pagoda sold prices on BAT are all over the place.
Some go for $100k+, others in same condition barely hits $70k.
SOMETIMES, there are good deals.
I think a lot depends on the color combo.
For some reason, silver cars gets big money. Browns not so much.
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How's this for a BaT flip:
https://www.lagunaclassiccars.com/vehicles/465/1969-mercedes-benz-280sl
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1969-mercedes-benz-280sl-50/
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This is the debate I don’t want to change the nature of the car.
Also don’t want to leave anything that could adversely effect the car.
Does keeping certain patina benefit the story and originality of the car.
The paint color in the trunk is no longer original and correcting it and replacing the decals would bring the trunk space closer to original. The deteriorated firewall pad as shown in BAT photo 138, while no doubt original, is not in keeping with the character of the rest of the car. IMHO addressing these two items would be positive rather than adversely affecting the car. Fix what is important to you and enjoy!
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How's this for a BaT flip:
https://www.lagunaclassiccars.com/vehicles/465/1969-mercedes-benz-280sl
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1969-mercedes-benz-280sl-50/
I don’t understand how this is a “flip” - it did not sell on BAT (reserve not met) and now available for sale on consignment through a dealer.
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The paint color in the trunk is no longer original and correcting it and replacing the decals would bring the trunk space closer to original. The deteriorated firewall pad as shown in BAT photo 138, while no doubt original, is not in keeping with the character of the rest of the car. IMHO addressing these two items would be positive rather than adversely affecting the car. Fix what is important to you and enjoy!
I would concur with Ralph about the firewall pad. There is no particular benefit to leaving it as is. Its original condition is well documented, and replacing it falls into the same category of conservation as, for instance, the selective repaint of the hood that was performed prior to the auction. (I would also include the selective repair and repaint of the hardtop in this category of conservation, if it proves to be necessary.)
Regarding the interior of the trunk, the first thing I noticed when first reviewing the 300+ photos on BAT is that the tire pressure decal is still in place on the underside of the trunk lid, but was painted over when the interior was touched up. Has anyone had any experience successfully stripping paint from the trunk decal without harming the decal itself?
As for the color of the trunk interior paint itself, we all know how difficult it is to determine the true color of the painted surfaces in a trunk from photos. The "dark grey" finish will appear to be black in some photos and not so black (ergo, "dark gray") in others. It may come to pass that revealing the now painted-over sticker and dealing with the surface rust along the seams under the cargo mat might be all that is necessary to conserve the trunk area of this Pagoda.
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@kampala Ah my bad, I remembered seeing the car before when I saw the dealer advert, and thought it had ended in a sale on BaT.
Damn, guess my car hasn't appreciated by 65% in 4 months then!
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I will repair the minor corrosion spots
Last thought on this the soft top
Is original and warn.
The car will never see rain with me....
Would you replace it or leave it?
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Maybe see whether you actually use the soft top, you might not. It looks serviceable for occasional use at least.
The problem with renewing anything is that it might start you on a complete restoration. So I would second Brad's "keep it clean and drive it".
(also keep the clogs ;))
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Those will stay for sure
Yes the idea with this car was not to restore....
Preserve and enjoy
Thanks for all the advise
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Hey i_ralley,
You sure bought a very original car there, and since you are very interested in originality, I've noticed a few things you might want to research.
I mostly know 280SL, so I might be wrong on some of these:
1. Check out your clock bezel. It is pointed (the cross-section has a point, it is not circular). I believe this is not original to the car.
2. I know in the later cars, the defrost "plaque" (near the center of the heat/air controls) is not on European cars, and it is on the US cars. Since your car was delivered to North America, I believe it should have the plaque and you don’t.
3. Do I see an exhaust tip with a flat section on it???? It looks like one new one (round cross-section) and one original one (flat area on the cross-section). These are extremely rare and I would not replace it even if you have one of each on your car.
I hope I am not wrong on everything and this comment has some value to you.
Enjoy your new Pagoda. It is only original once.
Mark
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I mostly know 280SL, so I might be wrong on some of these:
1. Check out your clock bezel. It is pointed (the cross-section has a point, it is not circular). I believe this is not original to the car.
2. I know in the later cars, the defrost "plaque" (near the center of the heat/air controls) is not on European cars, and it is on the US cars. Since your car was delivered to North America, I believe it should have the plaque and you don’t.
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You are wrong, Mark. :o
Both details are correct for a 230SL, but of course not for a 280SL.
https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Electrical/Clock
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Thanks for correcting me Alfred. I really don't want to give out wrong info.
Interesting that in most cases the harder parts to come by are the early parts, not the late parts.
But, the last time I had a clock re-built, they had the bezel with the peak on it in inventory and not the round one I needed. Interesting. Luckily they were able to re-use my very nice original one.
Thanks again for setting me straight.
Take care,
Mark
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Hello All,
First, I would like to Thank a good friend on this site for alerting me on the interesting back and forth on our product. I'm the owner of Performance & Vintage Classicos, and we take pride for the work we do -- Is it perfect?... perhaps not... is it the best, perhaps not... But it is damm good! and it is honest! -- You want to pick away at someone's work -- we all know that even the Classic Center's work can be picked apart if that is your bailiwick. We have folks from the group pretending to be the all mighty of restoring these cars, and make comments for the wrong clamps being used ... Well we use NORMA clamps on our cars ... so does the Classic Center, and folks pay $250K for their cars. Comment on recreating a DATACARD as a negative... well we issue the original datacard, and one by our company with any deviation from the original... Is this a sin? Why do we need to be so pity... why don't we just create a community that celebrates our cars, our relationships and has an appreciation for what we are all doing? We need to stop behaving like old ladies criticizing a soap opera -- There is no value in sitting behind a keyboard and making pity comments... It does not elevate one and it does not elevate this usergroup. In fact, very few of the folks on this group takes the time to say things like Joe Alexander is wonderful, or Dan Caron is amazing... Let's keep it positive!
I actually think our cars are worth $200K+ ... that you may not want to pay that, I respect that... this is why there is a market!
I love an original car ... and we will continue to strive to restore our cars as close to the original factory car as possible... But I will let you know (here first), we are presently working on 6 Pagodas that will be electric cars. Now, I can see some of you turning over and calling this the ultimate insult... Well, guess what? Customers want them! The market wants them. 3 of the six are already under contract. So please forgive me for not being the 'purist' some of you may be.
I learn a ton from folks on this forum... but would enjoy a little more positive tone on all the commentary!
Regards,
Pablo
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Still learning and digesting a lot in my hunt for my personally ideal W113 (euro, manual, driver quality).
Someone a few posts ago mentioned they doubted BAT bidders would belong to a forum like this. I actually learned of the forum from a just closed auction and wouldn’t have joined if the member posting their car hadn’t been as open, forthright, and engaged in the comments on the thread.
No doubt I will learn a great deal more here than from the dozens of YouTube videos and BAT threads I’ve consumed in the past few months.
But I did want to say that the representation of the forum from at least that member was positive and I’m looking forward to learning more.
Having bought an Alfa Romeo 4C from BAT last year I’d say that it isn’t always the ideal way to buy, but it can be a good outcome for both parties. For me at least, owner engagement in the comments has a lot to do with whether I’ll bid or not.
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At least one of the current/recent sales of a W113 is a member here.
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Yeap, that is probably me ;)
i have looking for about 1 year, in multiple places, and also in Bringatrailer. Finally i felt comfortable with one vehicle and purchased it.
i restored multiple land rover defenders, but always wanted a W113.
know looking for a good mechanic in the Miami area to maintain it.
regards Norberto
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I was talking about a SELLER.
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Curious as to what electric package you are using...
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https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1967-mercedes-benz-230sl-28/
A record for a 230SL?
BAT prices are all over the place. Kind of a high price for a #2 car?
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U-n-b-e-l-i-e-v-a-b-l-e ... ???
For a Two-thirtie....?
Never heard of such a price for a 230 in the States before...
Wonder whether this sales price is real ....
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I stand by my earlier statements that BaT is an absolute farce. A bunch of "know-it-alls" who show up at auctions for the same vehicle models, others who "butter up" the seller because they know him.
And then in excess of $100,000.- for a car ON LINE that you haven't seen....Come on! Since when is this the way to buy a car.
I don't care if calcowboy or whipcity or ChicagoGas - who haven't seen the car either!!!! - say it is the greatest car ever to be on BaT.
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Hi Mike,
I was the seller of the car that NavPatagonia won the bid on. I will say it is a painful process dealing with many of the commenters. My car was a very nice two owner car with a well known history. I did disclose that there was an accident 22 years ago requiring replacement of the trunk lid and a quarter panel, that disclosure probably cost me $20k. Many of the 113’s sold have had 4 or more owners, who knows the true history of those cars. Was the 230SL that sold today for $145k really worth more than twice my car?
Mike
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Mike;
I saw your auction. I thought it was really well presented and addressed all possible questions one could have. Then there were these guys who put it down because it was "not original".
One can discuss the difference in value to no end and the question whether the gree 230 was worth more than twice of ours can be answered easily: No!
Unless you buy a car for a museum, in 10 years, that originality of a car when driven, is no longer there, because things will need to be replaced. If you take half the difference and put that money into your car, it is a better "investment".
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I have also wondered why one car will bring two or three times the price than one that appears to be as good or better. Seriously tempted to offer any car I would want to sell through BAT but with a reasonable reserve price, because it seems to be an easy way to end up receiving more, or far more, than otherwise likely to happen. Although quite unpredictable as it also seems in the end it's always between only two or three serious buyers.
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On one of the recent auctions, in reading through the comments at one point, the statement was made that the BaT auction comments on the 113 were the place to learn what you need about the Pagoda. Almost fell off the chair chuckling at that one! I am with Cees, just crazy bidding on some of the cars.
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Hi All,
Did any Pagoda owners notice the green 230sl sold on BAT yesterday for 145,000 usd. Looked very nice but in reality not a great deal different from the others sold on bat around the 50-60,000 mark. Interesting that the manual makes a premium over the auto. Had a few of both gearbox types over the years. Always found the manual a bit clumsy in it's change and not particularly well geared. The auto is seamless in it's change but only if the car is set up correctly.
Happy driving! Matt
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Yes I saw that green 230 SL sale yesterday, I think it was referenced in another thread here in the forums. My point exactly, that is a nice car but the seller bought it only a few years ago for (as I recall) 60 or 80K and now it sold for twice what similar cars sell for all the time. Go figure.
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Hi Mike,
I was the seller of the car that NavPatagonia won the bid on. I will say it is a painful process dealing with many of the commenters. My car was a very nice two owner car with a well known history. I did disclose that there was an accident 22 years ago requiring replacement of the trunk lid and a quarter panel, that disclosure probably cost me $20k. Many of the 113’s sold have had 4 or more owners, who knows the true history of those cars. Was the 230SL that sold today for $145k really worth more than twice my car?
Mike
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1970-mercedes-benz-280sl-48-2/
Yes, the accident damage did hurt your car somewhat. Maybe $5k.
BAT is just weird. Your car is beautiful and with a great color combo. A car like your's averages between $60-80k.
Color is probably the thing that separates the big dollar cars and for some reason...green W113s get big dollars. Don't know why. Brown probably gets the lowest.
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This 560SL is crazy. A few guys with big wallets showing off. Just looks foolish to me.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1988-mercedes-benz-560sl-182/?utm_source=dm&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2021-04-03
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Why not $250K next time.
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Not sure why these R107s are going nuts now:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1986-mercedes-benz-560sl-125/
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The reason is, the "collectors" with more money than brain, confuse them with the w113s.... 8) ;D
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. . . or maybe because the last of the R107s combined a pagoda hardtop and looks and style of an earlier decade with decent performance, a smooth and effective autobox, A/C that works, and safety features such as ABS and airbag SRS. They are not Pagodas, but a few folks here have both, so there must be some attraction . . .
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Sure, it is not a bad car. Some say, it is the last of the true quality MB cars. But over 100k...???
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And nice R129s can go for as much as 50. Very nice cars, those 129s are.
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A W113 with a 350 V8 conversion was entered on BaT. Let's see what that brings. The resident experts have already started to praise it.
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I'm starting to see resto-mod 190 and Pagodas showing up on a regular basis on Bat and other sites. I don't care much for them but when I see club presidents praising the efforts of completely bastardized examples I really have to wonder what's going on. As some of you may remember, I was the one to ask that we move all of the modify your car posts on this site to a separate forum that I called R&D.
A decent 560SL with under 50,000 miles was already bringing good money as much as 10 years ago so a time capsule with 6,000 miles on it is hardly surprising at 100K. How many can there be?
129? Well MB shot their foot off on that car. Very nice looking cars with lovely interiors but a mechanical POS. When MB realized that people were repairing the amplifiers for idle speed, cruise control, ECU, and other expensive electronics that often fail on 107's, they cleverly filled all of those units on 129's with epoxy so they couldn't be repaired - only replaced with new. 129 are cheaper than 107's for a reason and that's one of them. No one wants them - they can quickly become one of the worse buys you've ever made. Great way to promote customer loyalty, I might add.
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Hi Dan
I have a R129 (1991) model and I think that there electrical problems are with the later post 1993 models that had issues with the wiring harness.
My car has only had issues with the distributor caps (known problem with moisture) but this was easily solved with upgraded caps. Other than the basic maintenance items, the only other common issue is the soft top hydraulics which again can be repaired with better & upgraded units (not expensive).
Touch wood, my car and other colleagues with R129s have not experienced issues with electrical components, although the later cars may be more prone, especially the models that had the M113 engine & 5 speed 722.6 auto
The earlier models with M119 engine and the four speed 722.3X autos are pretty bullet proof. My car is driven regularly and it's one of those cars that I can hop into and go anywhere without fear of stopping or breaking down.
Regards
Franjo
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I'm starting to see resto-mod 190 and Pagodas showing up on a regular basis on Bat and other sites. I don't care much for them but when I see club presidents praising the efforts of completely bastardized examples I really have to wonder what's going on.
What's going on is you've gotten old and the market is changing. The market is moving toward vintage styling and modern comfort, performance and reliability. You may not like it, but the buyers with the bucks do and that market is growing across many marques.
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What's going on is you've gotten old and the market is changing. The market is moving toward vintage styling and modern comfort, performance and reliability. You may not like it, but the buyers with the bucks do and that market is growing across many marques.
That may be true but I see NO value in encouraging people to hack up perfectly decent cars. If they do, that's on them and it's their car that they can do with as they please. The reason why so many resto-mod American iron is because the vast majority of it was junk when it was new and you can only improve it by doing so. Not so with our cars that were beyond modern even when new.
Either we're committed to preserving original cars or we aren't. Praising those who would turn a 113 into something that it isn't and was never meant to be is not what this club is or should be all about.
I'm old alright; old enough to know better. :)
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Hi Dan
I have a R129 (1991) model and I think that there electrical problems are with the later post 1993 models that had issues with the wiring harness.
My car has only had issues with the distributor caps (known problem with moisture) but this was easily solved with upgraded caps. Other than the basic maintenance items, the only other common issue is the soft top hydraulics which again can be repaired with better & upgraded units (not expensive).
Touch wood, my car and other colleagues with R129s have not experienced issues with electrical components, although the later cars may be more prone, especially the models that had the M113 engine & 5 speed 722.6 auto
The earlier models with the M119 engine and the four-speed 722.3X autos are pretty bulletproof. My car is driven regularly and it's one of those cars that I can hop into and go anywhere without fear of stopping or breaking down.
Regards
Franjo
You've been lucky if that's the case. There are a number of fuses behind the back trunk panel that can give trouble and you might want to check and clean them. 129's go very cheap around here. I'm aware of the wiring harness problems which is another issue but it's the amplifiers that can really cause problems and are very expensive. My local climate is high humidity which probably doesn't help.
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You've been lucky if that's the case. There are a number of fuses behind the back trunk panel that can give trouble and you might want to check and clean them. 129's go very cheap around here. I'm aware of the wiring harness problems which is another issue but it's the amplifiers that can really cause problems and are very expensive. My local climate is high humidity which probably doesn't help.
Hi Dan - I hear you about the humidity. That made the issue with the distributor caps even worse ! Took me a while until I figured this was a common issue. I have done the fuse checks at front & back. All in very good order and terminals have no corrosion etc. Given that this version uses the CIS set up, it is pretty robust. I think the M119 is one of the best Mercedes engines ever made !
I guess a lot comes down to how the car is looked after and stored. But I would not buy the later R129s. More problems, unnecessary added complexity and the M113 engine, which in itself is a good engine, is nowhere near the M119. I have had cars with both, and the M119 is many notches above. Mine has zero oil consumption, no leaks, engine temp stays pegged at 80C. I personally think its one of the best Mercs ever built (ie early version V8 models).
Regards
Franjo
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That may be true but I see NO value in encouraging people to hack up perfectly decent cars. If they do, that's on them and it's their car that they can do with as they please. The reason why so many resto-mod American iron is because the vast majority of it was junk when it was new and you can only improve it by doing so. Not so with our cars that were beyond modern even when new.
Either we're committed to preserving original cars or we aren't. Praising those who would turn a 113 into something that it isn't and was never meant to be is not what this club is or should be all about.
I'm old alright; old enough to know better. :)
Who says they were perfectly decent cars to begin with? You don't know, nor I. No matter how advanced Mercedes 50's technology was, it isn't compared to current technology, performance and reliability. I don't think anyone is encouraging restomodded cars in a particular marque, just admiring the effort and final product. There is more than an abundant supply of preserved and restored cars to relative factory originality, that market has been thoroughly exploited, hence the move by some to take the styling (which they like) of the era to another dimension (and bypass what they don't like).
As far as preserving original cars, I think the $100K 560 SL is testament that market is alive and well.
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Dan: I am totally with you. But we are fighting a battle we cannot win. I stopped arguing with the people in another community, who think sticking a Porsche flat six into a 914-4 will make it a greater car.
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Who says they were perfectly decent cars, to begin with? You don't know, nor I. No matter how advanced Mercedes 50's technology was, it isn't compared to current technology, performance, and reliability. I don't think anyone is encouraging resto modded cars in a particular marque, just admiring the effort and final product. There is more than an abundant supply of preserved and restored cars to relative factory originality, that market has been thoroughly exploited, hence the move by some to take the styling (which they like) of the era to another dimension (and bypass what they don't like).
As far as preserving original cars, I think the $100K 560 SL is a testament that the market is alive and well.
Generally, I agree with you but:
I do know how good a 113 is because I've been working on them for 35 years. They're one hell of a lot better than most cars were in their day and are still very tractable in modern traffic.
I'm speaking only in terms of what we, as a club who are trying to preserve original cars, should be promoting. Personally speaking, I would be very dismayed to find our club president praising the efforts of any resto-modded 113 on our site. He may in fact privately admire the work; that's his call and there's a separate forum for those to do so. However, facts to the contrary hold no water for me. Either we are about original cars or we aren't. And if we aren't, then why have a club at all? Why even bother?
I'm speaking to everyone here. Make your choice and make it now, because the resto-mod crowd is on its way.
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Generally, I agree with you but:
I do know how good a 113 is because I've been working on them for 35 years. They're one hell of a lot better than most cars were in their day and are still very tractable in modern traffic.
I'm speaking only in terms of what we, as a club who are trying to preserve original cars, should be promoting. Personally speaking, I would be very dismayed to find our club president praising the efforts of any resto-modded 113 on our site. He may in fact privately admire the work; that's his call and there's a separate forum for those to do so. However, facts to the contrary hold no water for me. Either we are about original cars or we aren't. And if we aren't, then why have a club at all? Why even bother?
I'm speaking to everyone here. Make your choice and make it now, because the resto-mod crowd is on its way.
I guess I never saw a mission statement for the club, so, if preserving originality is it, then your position vis a vis the club is well taken. And, I thoroughly agree the 113 is a great piece of engineering and a very drivable car even by today's standards and I see little need for improvement. The 190 SL? Well, not so much, not even close to a 113.
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I guess I never saw a mission statement for the club
Seriously? It's in our charter needed for incorporation, and also for us to secure 501 c 7 non-profit status.
It's also shown in and on every Pagoda World.
It's here: https://www.sl113.org/wiki/About/Charter
It's all online here. Full transparency. Nothing hidden.
Summarized:
The purpose of the Pagoda SL Group is to facilitate the sharing of information and to encourage communications among enthusiasts related to the Mercedes W113 cars. The Club seeks to assist with the care, restoration, collection and preservation of these classic cars.
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Seriously? It's in our charter needed for incorporation, and also for us to secure 501 c 7 non-profit status.
It's also shown in and on every Pagoda World.
It's here: https://www.sl113.org/wiki/About/Charter
It's all online here. Full transparency. Nothing hidden.
Summarized:
The purpose of the Pagoda SL Group is to facilitate the sharing of information and to encourage communications among enthusiasts related to the Mercedes W113 cars. The Club seeks to assist with the care, restoration, collection and preservation of these classic cars.
Forgive me, I never read it. Nothing about originality.
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Not trying to get in the middle of this but your footer states a large number of ‘mods’ to your red rocket.
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I have been following this post. Rarely do I feel I want to jump in a share some of my own 2 cents but end up biting my tongue. But my tongue is about to be severed from my mouth. It seems there is a foggy distinction between what some want to believe and reality. Reality is that things sell for what the market in a given arena is willing to pay. There may be only 2 or 3 people who each want the same thing bad enough to spend more than what we think it is worth. Yet they are the ones forking out the cash. Their cash. Not my cash. Perhaps they will be happy or dismayed with their purchase. But what has been discussed here is actually going on everywhere. I could not believe what my neighbor just sold his house for. But someone just bought it. Airbnb stock opened at $68 last December and today was above $190. Many experts still argue that the company stock is worth that much. But there it is.
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Not trying to get in the middle of this but your footer states a large number of ‘mods’ to your red rocket.
Some are rare options and some are mods but all are done with vintage parts all collected from the time period when the 113 was current. I used parts that were both newer and older than my car ( 1966 ) such as early 230SL exhaust headers, a 22mm saw bar from a 111 coupe, a 280SL fuel tank, 280SL seats, 280SL LSD axle, 250SE engine from a 111 coupe, power steering from a 230SL, 230SL camshaft with offset woodruff key, and an ignition distributor from a 1965 300SE. There is nothing newer than 1971. I bought the car in 1993 with the ZF 5 speed option.
I did all of this work about 20 - 25 years ago and long before this club existed. There are very few high-performance parts available for our cars and I wanted to see what I could do with available items from the '60's. Anyone could do the same thing if they wanted to search out all of those parts.
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I did all of this work about 20 - 25 years ago and long before this club existed.
But, if the club had existed you wouldn't have? Point is, you did what you wanted and created a 113 that you enjoy(ed) and that others (113 interested) can admire and learn from. Same with restomods.
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But, if the club had existed you wouldn't have? Point is, you did what you wanted and created a 113 that you enjoy(ed) and that others (113 interested) can admire and learn from. Same with restomods.
No, not even close.
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There seems to be a penchant, perhaps more prevalent in the USA than other countries, of keeping classic/collectible Mercedes-Benz cars in their "as delivered" state. This is when compared to other countries, and when compared to other marques such as Audi, Porsche and BMW.
There are very few shops/firms that modify MBs, but of those that do--Lorinser, Brabus and Kleeman, for example--most are not in the USA. Yes, I know about RennTech and Weisstech.
Compare that to those aforementioned marques: take a look in their club magazines (Quattro, Panorama and Roundel) and you'll see a large number of firms doing all kinds of modifications. You simply don't see it at that level for MB here in the USA. Porsche aficionados also have a name for the modified cars: "outlaw".
I think there is more respect for the kind of mods that Dr. Benz has done on his Pagoda and on 190SLs than say, that small block Ford V8 that was shoehorned into a Pagoda some years back and featured in The Star magazine (complete with aftermarket polished valve covers engraved with "Mercedes-Benz" on them...)
I think the long history of the Classic Center and factory support of many of their cars (this barely exists at other marques) may have something to do with it.
As for our charter, no, we don't mention "restomods". We also don't mention "modification". We do mention communications, restoration and preservation...but note we do have a forum topic on modifications and research.
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adding to the thread of retro mods
mechatronic has been modifying sl's for a long time. Gernold at sl tech is or used to be a usa rep for them
https://www.mechatronik.de/en/new-tech/m-sl/
supposidly they take an sl, install new MB drive train BUT with no mods that cannot be undone so you can re install the original equip.
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If I remember correctly, there are a couple of members that have converted their W113s to V8s. One member (GRR?) did it himself and posted a lengthy and seemingly popular thread a while back. Another had Jim Cosgrove at Oldtimer Restoration Center (who has worked on my 280SL) in Harvard, MA do the job.
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Using MB parts and keeping with the element of high build standards is not so odious to me. Sticking a non-MB drive train in it kind of is. A 3.5 in a 280SL doesn't bother me much because it's still within the time frame of the build - vintage modified, and you haven't made the car unsafe to drive.
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I have a friend who has been a jaguar fanatic for many years ... Classic cars but even his modern ones are jaguar. He has xk120,140,150 fixed head and convertible few e-types, Mkii etc. all his cars were impeccable and restored to super original standards . He can buy in any condition and after a couple of years I would see them beautifull restored . Ex president of jaguar club.
He is in his sixties now ....bought another series I e-type ..... And now it was all resto mod......brakes, suspension, aircon etc etc .... Anything that could make it safer and more confortabe to drive as long as the exterior looks didn't change . surprise , it's now his favorite classic and the one he will drive more often... I never would never have thought that he would be "converted " , but he has . And it's a great drive...So agree , the rest mods are here and they're here to stay and grow. Electric engines on these will be thing that will keep these cars alive in the not so distant future
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This thread sure took a turn
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My point is very simple (but still will spawn discussions!): When is an original vehicle no longer what the original designation describes..? What makes a W113? What makes a 1974 911RS Carrera?
What makes a Honda CBX (it's a motorcycle!)?.. Name the key ingredients. Change some of them and then ask: Is this still what it is supposed to be?
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Not the original colour/interior
£184,000
https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2021-04-17/cars/ref-3-1969-mercedes-benz-280sl-jt/
And 230 at £87k
https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2021-04-17/cars/ref-169-1966-mercedes-benz-230-sl-pagoda-sb/
280 at £65k
https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2021-04-17/cars/ref-69-1970-mercedes-benz-280-sl-pagoda-dg/
123 TE £23k
https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2021-04-17/cars/ref-125-1982-mercedes-benz-280-te-estate-seven-seat-dg/
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I think that one point that's missing from this discussion about BaT is the fact that their platform simply provides the buyer with more information than other sites provide. Numerous photos, including the undercarriage, and the ability for the seller to add more photos in response to specific questions. Add in a driving video and you get a much clearer picture of what you're considering buying.
That's why everyone left eBay. BaT "found a hole and filled it". Now Hemmings got in the act, Cars and Bids popped up (1981 and newer only), and even the major auction houses dipped their toe in the water of online auctioning. BaT's timing as the established market leader when COVID hit couldn't have been better. Lots of people stuck at home looking for some excitement in their lives. And lots people wanting to post their opinions, too! :o
Upon submission to BaT, the car get vetted, the seller gets vetted, the title status get vetted, and fair or not, the commenters go on to vet it even further!
As to the prices, it's not unlike what you see at Mecum or Barrett-Jackson - sometimes unworthy cars sell for crazy money. But in the majority of cases, the big money goes to the cars that have great documentation, extensive photos, and engaged sellers. It all comes down to information.
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Ok so this is a big delay but I finally got my car home purchased on bat.
In this case I’ve known the car my entire life.......yes I wish it was cheaper.
But it was the car.... the first 230sl I had ever seen as a young boy.
One owner we connected last week.
I brought it to his home it was so emotional.
Usually I only like buying deals.
Did I over pay....maybe.
But the dealer that purchased it from him put it on bat and I guess I’m lucky to get the chance to buy it .
Before I finalized the deal a buyer that had internet failure during the auction called and ask how much for me to step aside....
Does this mean the price was good???
Still not sure
But In the end the car is home. It’s amazing and I’m glad to have the opportunity.
True my bank account is well....thin now.
Anyways maybe I’ve checked one of life’s boxes Or overpaid for an old car.
Time will tell.
I will mention I’m glad people from this forum chimed in if it wasn’t for the auction I wouldn’t have known about this amazing resource.
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This is interesting. It is at USD $92,500.00 !! And there is 1 hour left in the auction.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1969-mercedes-benz-280sl-59/?utm_source=dm&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2021-06-09
I'll let the buyers determine it's value.
But, a few facts are (at least I believe they are facts :D ):
No proof of any number matching at all. Nobody asked and the seller did not show pictures of the usual body numbers. We see the plate, so we have the number, but no one even asked if it is an original hood or soft top cover.
No driving video.
No radio (that's a bucket of money right there).
It went from $57000 to $92500 in four bids !! WOW.
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Numbers matching; classic car. Both are meaningless titles today.
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Dan,
I've heard what you have to say about "classic" cars, and I don't have an argument for that, but I sure believe that numbers matching means nothing to you, but plenty of collectors out there place some value on it. I don't understand how you could disagree with that.
Take care,
Mark
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The "matching numbers" importance depends a lot on the car model. I do think, however, the provenance of a car, supported by engine and chassis numbers as original to the vehicle are important.
There are too many hackers out there who put vehicles together from different donor wrecks and these things should not be considered on the same 'collectible" level as a vehicle with documented components.
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Porsche owners who are well aware that the early 911's popped engines like popcorn are starting to use the phrase "Born with engine".
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Dan,
I've heard what you have to say about "classic" cars, and I don't have an argument for that, but I sure believe that numbers matching means nothing to you, but plenty of collectors out there place some value on it. I don't understand how you could disagree with that.
Take care,
Mark
It makes sense for some cars but not all of them. At first, it was headlight notches, then it was fender spot welds, and now it's matching numbers. ::)
Aside from getting caught up in the minutia of all things 113, none of these things were rarely even known about or even discussed 10 years ago. Are we really that better informed these days?
My advice is to look at how well a car is blended. Does the paint look as good as the chrome? The interior look as good as the exterior? Does the engine bay blend with the rest of the car or is it the dog's breakfast? Does it drive as well as it looks? Are matching numbers on a car that's never been rated by that criterion more important than a well-blended one when it comes to price? Or, is it all smoke and mirrors; lipstick on a pig?
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I was encouraged by this sale result for a car that looks not much different from mine, and with nobody asking about 'numbers' before being ready to pay a high price. Good investment it has been so far - for a car, anyway.
Drove my '71 VW around town today, such a joy. I intend to sell it on BAT shortly, once it's finished (few more things to go). Meanwhile, I am counting on it making it to San Diego (from Long Beach) for this Saturday's get-together. Can't wait! Nor can I wait for the BAT experience - as far as I can tell, no VW 411 'Squareback' has ever sold on BAT so that should make some difference.
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My opinion on why this particular car sold for a high amount is:
* that the seller provided a very good look at the underside of the car and its much of it looked exceptionally nice -- the underside may have pushed the bidders to go for it.
* Green on Green - the color combo is one of those that folks seem to LOVE or hate and those who love it might pay up just for that -- we don't see too many Green on Green.
* Pagoda bull-market - seems to me the Pagoda pricing is heated at the moment, not sure if it's overheated and will cool off but there might be a sense of missing-out. I don't follow other cars, so not sure if bull-market crosses to many other cars.
* A/C working or not seems to drive sales up a bit (my opinion)
I agree, it was a bit odd to see holes in the parcel shelves, missing radio, mis-matched wheels (as pointed out by Scoot on BAT), no trunk floor photos, no data card etc.
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This is interesting. It is at USD $92,500.00 !! And there is 1 hour left in the auction.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1969-mercedes-benz-280sl-59/?utm_source=dm&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2021-06-09
I'll let the buyers determine it's value.
But, a few facts are (at least I believe they are facts :D ):
No proof of any number matching at all. Nobody asked and the seller did not show pictures of the usual body numbers. We see the plate, so we have the number, but no one even asked if it is an original hood or soft top cover.
No driving video.
No radio (that's a bucket of money right there).
It went from $57000 to $92500 in four bids !! WOW.
I’m the idiot that bought this car from BAT ::) I really wasn’t expecting to buy a Pagoda and only saw the auction the night before auction end. I have been looking and bidding to end but no win at Longhood Porsche 911’s and SL600 R129 when my wife said you keep buying old cars, you should get a Mr. Slim instead of those junk. So I looked and we both really loved this color so it was really the color that sealed it more than anything.
Also, I didn’t think I was going to win like in all my previous bids on BAT. We were abroad and it was 230am and I couldn’t wait for the auction end so I put in a bid ($2K more than the last bid) and went to sleep thinking impossible I would get it so I slept well knowing that my money would not be at risk. Oh BOy I was surprised when I woke up :o
Anyway, I just received the car yesterday. The paint and interior is in excellent condition and as represented. It must have been detailed well as there are no swirl marks on the paint. I looked under the hood and in the trunk (under the mat) and there are no signs of rust). The leather is in excellent condition but I think the seats need new padding as I could feel the spring/base when I sit on it. Everything looks pretty good in the interior. Perhaps the Vent controls need to be repaired but I haven’t really tried it.
There is no radio, as represented, but it came with an original radio cover so I’m thinking this car may have originally came without a radio. I probably will just put back the faceplate cover and run it without a radio. The holes on the rear deck, I’ll probably cover it with carpet again. I’ll just bring a portable BT speaker when I use the car ;D
The engine starts right up and idles well. It runs ok when going slowly but when you reach 3K rpm it begins to stutter and stall. However, it will restart no problem and run ok slowly. I’m sure it needs some tuning, cleaning and spark plugs most probably. The last service record was from 2001 and it has only covered around 1500 miles since then. The registration card sent together with the car shows the same owner since 1989.
Overall I think it was a pretty good buy. I am happy I got the color I wanted and my wife says it’s my best car purchase… Worth it, she says. It is scheduled to see the workshop next week so we will know more then. The BAT ad had one wheel 5.5” which was one of the comments but I checked the spare and it’s the correct 6” wheel so I will just exchange that and use the former as spare.
I was very scared after I won the auction but now I have the car, I will say it is as represented. It does have the original hood, the welds on the fenders and the slit on the headlights.
Talk to you guys here more in the near future.
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#s matching became all the rage bc you couldn't figure out if you had a 300hp C2 vette, or a 435hp tri-power from the VIN or anything else unless you had a tank sticker (only in 1967) or window sticker/invoice.
On a Pagoda? Doesn't it really matter if it's the original engine or not, as long as it's a W113 motor?
I guess the big money guys will pay extra for it. Makes no sense.
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Congrats @Azmurciev12!
Green cars always bring big money; at least for Pagodas.
She looks smart, but man, you'd think for that $$, it'd run better.
Get some pool noodles and stuff them under the seat and just enjoy the car (at least, after you sort out your stalling issue).
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Yeah for sure I was hoping I could cruise on it right away. But it wasn’t unexpected due to the car being in storage for a very long time, probably some 20 years with only minor movement. The owner was a 93 year old who couldn’t remember much about how much he had done to the car as relayed by the daughter.
Anyway, first order of business is get it sorted and maybe get the aircon running.
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Azmurciev12,
Welcome to this group. I'm glad you are happy with your purchase. Now you are the custodian of that fine car.
It sounds to me like you got lucky with some important things, but now you got to get it running right.
It's a 50 year old car, so I hope your mechanic is familiar with the model.
There is plenty of helpful information on our site (you might want to consider a full membership which will open up all of the info available). If you and/or your mechanic are patient enough to go through this material, I am confident you will be able to cure your running issues with you car.
"Enjoy the ride !!" as some of us say.
Thanks for telling us your story and please tell us how we can help.
Mark
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Seems like I got lucky and escaped any major expense. The mechanic just called up and he said “you have a very decent car considering its age” :D. So far all it needs are the radiator and brake hoses plus a major service (around $2500). He checked the compression and everything is well with it. Aircon might just need a recharge but will have to wait until the aircon guy comes in. Sent out the tach and clock for repair/ refurbish. Looks like no rust to report of at this time… it was probably all repaired as shown by the BAT pics of the underside.
Also, I might have to buy the radio since the tech said the car did come with a radio because it has an antenna. He says if it didn’t have a radio option then it shouldn’t have an antenna he says.
Well, it’s just waiting time right now until he is finished with the car. I am just glad it seems like I got a pretty good car.
Cheers
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That's great; and for that, you can thank the 93 year old who can't remember much about what he did to the car. Sounds like he was a responsible steward of the car, and it was probably his pride and joy. As Mark says, we'd be happy to help you continue on that path.
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Man, this one went for good money considering all the work it needs:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1971-mercedes-benz-280sl-85/#comments-anchor (https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1971-mercedes-benz-280sl-85/#comments-anchor)
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I think the buyer will get a bit of buyers remorse when he gets the car. A few of us commented on the work needed but I think the buyer is slightly inexperienced with cars in general. The front fenders are not correctly attached and the floor will need replaced. It also looks like the trunk lid is a little tight on the gaps. Strong money for the amount of work needed...
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I think its not always about what needs to be fixed. I think the w113 are once in a life time experience and its getting very hard to find anything that is actually running. a little rust here and there is to be expected. its half a century.
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The sale of this white 1971 280SL is exactly why I started this thread. It's not that Pagoda prices have become inflated, hell, everything is inflated. It's OK to pay a bit high for a real good car. This, however, is not a good car. Once the owner starts "fixing" things on this car, his eyes are going to pop out. Let's be honest, the car is a sad sack beast. Unfortunately, bidders on BaT have no idea what it costs to restore a W113 MB. Much better off paying another 50% for a decent, well sorted Pagoda.