Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Question and comments on Originality => Topic started by: Shvegel on October 03, 2020, 03:41:29
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Another one of those areas that rarely gets photographed. I am in the process of installing my seat belts and I have a question. When I bought my buckles I also received a pair of black plastic covers that are supposed to snap onto the upper mount plate covering the mounting bolt. Is this correct for a late 280SL with Kangol belts or should the plate just be left bare?
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I far as I know there were never covers for the upper hardware on pagodas. I have seen aftermarket ones or for later cars.
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For what it is worth, this is from EPC, from chassis 113.044 000656
A 000 868 00 30
Not claiming it is correct, etc., just what the system is saying. I guess the US mainly.
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Pawel,
Are you referring to something like this?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/293722720288
The eBay ad mentions 113 but you know how that goes 🤣
When I redid my seat belts I looked into the covers but was told 113 didn’t have them. I seem to remember someone put them on to look good but when you did you could no longer hang the belt on the upper bracket for storage like it was originally designed 🤷♂️
I will interested to hear others opinions.
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Yes, I think EPC indicates something like these black plastic covers. I could not spot them at the time I fit my belts. I used those metal ones, then I just put magnet on buckles and leave them on the sill.
Yes, it was generally said 113 did not have the covers. But the EPC says otherwise, the chassis number I quoted is from the footnote for the part number.
I am not pushing this idea, just provided what the system says. This is for 3point belts that were anyway rare, I suppose. It says it is US. I think there were not a lot of them, but in my view, they were there if the car had 3point belts for the US.
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Thanks for the responses. I am trying to decide if I am going to use them. It would seem like they would fall off easily. Maybe I'll put them on for showing only.
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Pat,
I assume you are using static retracting 3-point belts, correct? As long as the belt hangs down they will stay put. But they interfere with the rotation of the bracket that you need for the belt to function.
{typo corrected}
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I do not have the original bracket for the top achor point, I could not get it and I used what the factory who did my belts gave me. My current bracket is similar in shape to the original one (you see it is modern, just overall shape idea is similar) and I have it facing differently - forward and up, otherwise it was very inconvenient to use. I think I made additional L shaped bracket there to have it facing the right direction.
You need to try to fit it and see how it works, but if I took the bracket from Alfred's picture, I would turn it upside down - that would make it closer to what I have.
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Oh guys, TIME OUT.
Rarely am I ahead of the curve when compared to Alfred, but I must tell you, that my extremely original Anthracite (sold) 280 SL had the covers as pictured in the parts breakdown and the ebay link shown previously in this thread by mrfatboy.
AND, if you look closely at thelews (John) very original 250 SL, he has them installed where they should be. Look at the link on any of his posts. It is picture DSCN3158.
Shvegel, they are correct !!
Take care,
Mark
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Yes, that is how I would imagine the original look of it, thank you!
I think close to what Alfred posted, actually.
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You should put on the plastic covers. They don't fall off. The pictures in this thread that are showing retracting belts are not relevant to your application of Kangol 3 point static belts.
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Thanks Scott, I corrected my post since I had retracting belts in mind.
My 230SL came without seat belts or head rests. So when Joe A. worked on it we decided to put retracting belts in but using a better solution for the guide on top of the B-pillar. He used belts that are on W201 cars and others of that time since they have a better designed guide arrangements (photo 1).
Later I changed the belt out for Kangols and am very happy with the looks and the smooth operation. There is even a way to hang up the belt end when not in use.
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Retracting Kangols. Rare. Nice.
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As delivered (except for the dust).
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Just curious: is VIN above or below 113.044 000656?
I would not expect consistency here with what the system is saying, just curious.
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My 1971 280SL ..22774 came without seat belts because it is a German spec car and belts were not mandatory in Germany at that time. I have done some extensive searching for ways to install seat belts in my car and I can say that I did not find any evidence that W113s came with retractable seat belts from the factory. They were all aftermarket. Installation is sort of a mess and for some versions require cutting of the B Pillar cover at the bottom to hide the spool housing. All the non-retractable seat belt versions I have seen had the top plastic cover. Note that the bracket varies depending on whether the belt has to slide through it (retractable) or is fixed there (non-retractable)
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This subject is definitely a head scratcher. I now suspect that the statements “never had covers” and “always had covers” are both incorrect. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle and this thread will be right up there with the “what is the correct wiper blades?” and “What is the correct radio?” thread debates.
These types of discussions are fun and one of the main reasons why I like to participate on the forum.
Over the weekend our San Diego group put our heads together to try to narrow down seatbelt originality.
First off, Box 43 on there data card (upper right corner) indicates the safety belt option that came with your car.
43(-) - No belts (Dealer installed?)
43(0) – Safety Belt 3 point (Kangol, France Only)
43(1) - Safety Belts, 2 point
43(2) – Safety Belts, 2 point
43(4) – Safety Belts, US- version
43(5) - Safety Belts, US- version
The above information comes from the Parts Book mentioned below.
I went over several data cards that have been posted here on the forum as well as our local group’s.
49er, Neelryc, JonB, TylerS, mine and several others had no code in Box 43 except for one. The one that had the code was an early 250sl. It had code 43(4) in the box. At this time I do not know if they were lap belts or 3 point static. I am guessing lap belts because I was told that US 250sl’s did not ship 3 point static belts from the factory. Can anybody confirm?
So it would seem many of these belts were installed at the dealer. Did they have different versions to choose from? Just what’s available?
TheLew’s early 250sl pic above throws a wrench in the above premise. However, are we absolutely certain that his belts are original? How do we know if he didn’t upgrade later on? How did he get 3 point static for a 250? Did he special order? Data Card? I would like to see the manufaturering data on belt itself. Hopefully he can chime in on this.
For discussion purposes we need to consider several things – Factory Installed, Special Order, Dealer Installed, US vs Euro, Replacements, and different versions.
Just a note, an original USA Version 250sl & 280sl edition A 1972 10808 parts book was reviewed and the only reference to seatbelts was the SA55686 code that Pawel referenced above. However, there were no pictures or part numbers for the belts. Other early parts books were reviewed and there were no references to seat belts at all.
I came across this post by Scoot in 2008 that has much info about the belts.
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=9986.0
An excerpt
“If they are chrome (particularly for the shoulder) they also have a big chrome bolt holding it in and the head of the bolt is "thin" compared to most bolts. A thicker-headed bolt would be used in other locations where it is not visible. On later cars, the shoulder connector would be covered with a plastic thing like in the pictures above. In this case the connector and bolt would probably not be chrome. “
So it would seem there are at least two versions of the 3 point static belts. Early version has thin chrome bolt and does not have the plastic cap and the later version of none chrome bolt that cap can fit on.
As a data point, one of our group’s cars is a Sept 69 280sl with the non chromed bolt on the B pillar which would suggest that a plastic cap was required. If I remember correctly, Neelryc’s car is a ~Feb 69 280sl and has the chrome bolt which didn’t come with the cap. So we sort of narrowing in on the date range.
Also, to confuse things even more, since the belts seemed to be mostly dealer installed who knows what belts they had on hand at the time, all parts installed, etc.
If possible, it would be great if people could post their data card code, seat belt type, US/Euro, Year and the manufaturering date on the tag on the belt. It will be the black/white tag (not red color Kangol) with the date in the lower right hand corner. The tag may also indicate "This belt conforms to US Federal Moto Vehicle Safety etc".
There is much more to all of this and once again I learned something new about the pagoda 😊 I look forward to other’s opinions.
I have attached a picture of my B pillar belt hardware.
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One other point that may help clarify some questions, especially lap belt vs 3-point on earlier cars; My car, although no seat belts, has a factory installed top mounting point in the B-pillar.
So, if someone has a 250SL with a 3-point belt and the top mounting nut inside the pillar seems to be an "afterthought" the car was built for lap belt.
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My '71 280SL US car, production date February 19, 1971 (98 before the end of production) has Kangol original 3-point, non-retractable seatbelts. My Vehicle Master Inquiry (VMI) doesn't show seatbelts as an option.
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Do you have the thin chrome bolt at B pillar or non chrome bolt? I assume no cap?
What does your tag say?
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Non-chrome bolt, no cap.
Here's what's left of one label (other gone) - good luck reading it!
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Yes. Hard to read. Looks like 1970 or 1976. If 70, most likely original. If 1976 not so much 🤣
It would seem your belts require the plastic caps but don’t run out and buy just yet.
One of our group has a spare set of plastic caps and want to try them on a sept 69 car and see if they fit.
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The label is in English. That would indicate non-factory??
Interesting bit: My haynes manual on pg 169 talks about a seat-belt warning system:
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24 Seat belt warning system
1 cars covered by this manual and destined for operation in North America are fitted with a simple type of seat belt warning system.
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4 Switches are located in the seat belt retractor units...
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A picture, Fig.10.11 shows a retractor
One large picture over two pages in the 280SL original sales brochure shows a red car with black hubcaps, top open, a woman driving, a plastic cover over the top belt bracket.
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So, if someone has a 250SL with a 3-point belt and the top mounting nut inside the pillar seems to be an "afterthought" the car was built for lap belt.
My 250sl came with the 3 point provision with caged nut in the B-pillar even though it only had lap belts installed (3rd party dealer) It is blanked off with a plastic plug.
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The mounting point on top of the B-pillar was there almost right from the start, first with a 10mm and later with a 7/16inch thread. A second point was across on the tunnel, both were used for shoulder belts, NOT lap belts. It might help to read the factory information here:
https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Interior/Seatbelts
In the discussion here it will be helpful if owners with original 3-point static belts indicate whether these are Mercedes belts or Kangol belts.
Another question I have for these owners is whether the belts are rotated up on the top of the B-pillar or remain in the downward position while driving.
The Kangol installation instructions (unfortunately in German only) issued by MB indicate an upward position.
How many of you use the metal belt hangers?
Ralf and Gary (GM), how do you put them on, up or down?
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Alfred,
Truth be told, my original Kangol static 3-point belts are safe in a box in my garage! :o
My wife wouldn't drive in the car without inertial belts that she feels safer in, so guess what I have installed? ;)
Attached are pics of my installation, with no visible changes to the original interior, and everything reversible. To your question, the B-pillar anchor slot is installed "up" which provides about 2-3" more height to help clear the top of the seat.
Hat tip to Steve Freifeld for his recommendations and assistance in this installation.
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My Kangol belts were factory installed. Chassis number 007749. Delivered to me at Sindelfingen on February 12, 1969. My data card block 43 includes a “-“ and no number. My car was a tourist delivery for the USA. I am speculating but I think the belts were a part of the USA spec and were therefore not indicated separately on the data card.
To function properly the bracket must be turned upward when in use. This puts the belt at exactly the elevation of the top of the seat back so that the belt extends directly across the shoulder. A photo is attached. The Kangol label is visible in the photo. This is the only label on the fabric belt itself. Both pieces of the belt include this label. The metal latch also includes a Kangol label as shown in the second photo.
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I see no plastic covers and a metal hanger, correct?
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Gary: Would it be possible to post a picture of the retractor spool hiding under the rear floor covers? My original MB installation instructions 91.18 for retractable belts have me cut a hole in the B pillar cover
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Photos credit: Steve Freifeld
I have additional install detail photos if you need them
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mrfatboy and Alfred,
Here are some comments that I hope help you out:
I've sold one and still have one, both are 1970 280 SLs that were both built in August of 1969.
Vins: 012160 and 012287.
Both have 3 point static Kangol belts with Kangol tags dated 1969 and words in English (Kangol is an English company you probably know that).
Both are US delivered cars.
Both have a dash (-) in the "43" box on their respective data cards.
On the 012160 car the metal piece bolted to the B pillar used to hang down naturally.
On the 012287 car the metal piece bolted to the B pillar stays up for some reason, and this position makes more sense to me so that the belt approaches the seat from a higher point so the belt doesn’t have to go up and over the seat.
I have the plastic part that holds the metal U shaped chrome end of the belt that is shown on thelews car, but I have never been satisfied on how it fits and functions. John’s, thelews’, car shows the metal piece rotated down and the plastic piece looks nice on there, but when I have mine in that position, and I pull the belt taught, the plastic part has a tendency to fall off. When it is rotated up, it looks funny to me, but does not fall off. I believe Alfred stated that it should be "up" from the Mercedes documentation. So, it doesn't look right to me, but works that way !!
Very interesting topic ! Thanks.
Mark
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I see no plastic covers and a metal hanger, correct?
There are no plastic covers.
There is a metal clasp very near the attachment to the "B" pillar that the belt is threaded through. You can see it in my post #26 above. If you rotate the attachment bracket downward, you could possibly use this as a hanger for the "U" -shaped metal latch on the other end of the belt. Pretty useless IMHO and I have never used it for this or for anything else. See picture below.
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Here is pic of my belt setup and some docs. Notice the circled illustration on the right.
I do rotate the bracket 180 degrees to the 12 o’clock position when the belt is in use.
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On the 012160 car the metal piece bolted to the B pillar used to hang down naturally.
On the 012287 car the metal piece bolted to the B pillar stays up for some reason, and this position makes more sense to me so that the belt approaches the seat from a higher point so the belt doesn’t have to go up and over the seat.
I have the plastic part that holds the metal U shaped chrome end of the belt that is shown on thelews car, but I have never been satisfied on how it fits and functions. John’s, thelews’, car shows the metal piece rotated down and the plastic piece looks nice on there, but when I have mine in that position, and I pull the belt taught, the plastic part has a tendency to fall off. When it is rotated up, it looks funny to me, but does not fall off. I believe Alfred stated that it should be "up" from the Mercedes documentation. So, it doesn't look right to me, but works that way !!
Very interesting topic ! Thanks.
Mark
Thanks Mark.
The "metal piece" (we need to find a name for it!) should hang down when the belt is not in use and should not stand up. During use it should be turned up to provide more clearance over the seat and also distribute the forward pressure more evenly around the bolt head in the event of a head-on crash.
The reason why one stands up is most likely because it is tightened too much. There should be a bushing and a wave washer to allow rotation. I have also seen another type of bolt with a thicker head and a shoulder that allows rotation but I believe that this one should go onto the tunnel attachment point. Picture #1.
I am also attaching a picture of the two types of hangers that are discussed here, metal vs snap-on plastic cap, to be clear. Picture #2
The $60K question: where and when was the plastic hanger used and where and when the metal one?
My guess is that the plastic one was used when the the "metal piece" did not require rotation for use, that is, in sedans.
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I propose we call the end of the belt an "anchor".
Thank you all for the replies!