Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: Macfly on September 22, 2020, 21:43:04
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Hi all,
I was looking fro a 280, manual shift but seem to be seeing some earlier cars getting my attention. I've been given some good general advice on the models and values, but her is a bit deeper question. How about the difference between older and newer production fo the 230SL specifically? I have seen a very nicely preserved 1967 230 model and also see an ad here on this site for an early 1963 model. How much had they changed over that span? Drum brakes to disc, right? Other significant changes? Are there significant value differences over that span?
Thanks,
Greg
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230 SLs are the same basically, very early ones have a smaller gas tank. Buy the best car you can independent of 230/250/280 SL.
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This link will give you most of the major changes. I'm biased, but the early 250 has the original 113 cosmetics of the 230 and also has the mechanical improvements of the 280. Hardest model to find.
http://www.silverstarclassics.com/113SL.htm
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Greg,
If you join as a full member you will get access to Pagoda Notes, which lists all of the changes by year for the 113 cars over the course of a number of issues, all in order. It will not address the issue of current value, just the list of running changes to the car. They started in Volume 9 Issue 4 running through Volume11 Issue 3.
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Just buy the best car you can afford and you hopefully don't go wrong. They are all very good. Figure out what "flicks your bic" and look for that.
For me I just wanted my Dad's rusted out car as it was his car - if it was a BMW 2800 I would be part of the BMW club again - it just happened my Dad had a rusted out Pagoda in the back yard.
A friend bought his pagoda just because he liked the front end and the mini fins (sexy little things people always seem to caress) at the back and another guy I know bought his because he is German and wanted what was the "best" when he was a kid. None of us really care about gas tank size, drum vs disk rear brakes or extra chrome in the interior.
Just get one you can afford to purchase and maintain.
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230 SLs are the same basically, very early ones have a smaller gas tank. Buy the best car you can independent of 230/250/280 SL.
I always thought that 230SL fuel tanks were all the same size.
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For the most part all 230SL's are just about the same.
Very early cars had an additional chrome surround within the soft top cover and the far left and right fresh air dash vents were partially painted the color of the dash.
The early cars I believe had 5.5 inch rims whereas later examples had 6 inch depth.
The early cars had the spare mounted in the left of the boot and at a near vertical angle and later cars were mounted horizontally on the right side.
In october 1965 the original 230SL headers were replaced with cast manifolds.
I think there were some revisions to the seats.
Here is an example of a super original 1967 230SL. One of the very last ones.
This is an excellent reference car for essentially all 230SL's to see how these cars were when they were new.
A beautiful survivor and not to far off from as nice as you would ever find.
see:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1967-mercedes-benz-230sl-22/
The 230SL is my favorite of all of the Pagodas. It is the original design. It's pure.
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I always thought that 230SL fuel tanks were all the same size.
Oh, absolutely sure so, Sir! ;) ;D
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Thank you all for the replies.
It's clear I need to look at many until I find the magical moment. These cars are really hard to find in solid condition and at a reasonable price. So I need to find the car I want, not the deal I hope for. It will take some time...
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Greetings,
I’m currently helping my father search for a 230SL and was wondering whether there are significant changes between cars built for the US market and those in Europe. I’m based in the UK and have discovered that there seems to be quite a notable divergence between cars for sale in the US and over here in Europe and especially the UK which I assume is just because that’s where the blatant majority of the W113s originally went and thus there’s more supply. We’re currently considering the idea of importing an example from the United States as opposed to buying one from the home market but are curious as to whether one model is inferior to the other based on the original market in which it was built for as is the case with many cars from the era.
Appreciate any advice
Cheers
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Mr. Bracqtobasics - have a look in the archives of this forum - lots of discussion on this topic - but as far as I can tell the mechanics were basically the same with the later european models having a hotted up camshaft giving a bit more juice. the American cars may have seatbelts with headrests and different pockets in the interior and the most noticable being different headlights, bumper over riders and side marker lights. You may find the options were a bit different with more power steering and airconditioning on US models, different ratio rear ends and more emissions equipment. More US cars came with whitewalls. I'm sure I missed something.
Any car in the "right condition" for you should be fine - spend money on a good body first, mechanical 2nd and then everything else after that.
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Mr. Bracqtobasics - have a look in the archives of this forum - lots of discussion on this topic - but as far as I can tell the mechanics were basically the same with the later european models having a hotted up camshaft giving a bit more juice. the American cars may have seatbelts with headrests and different pockets in the interior and the most noticable being different headlights, bumper over riders and side marker lights. You may find the options were a bit different with more power steering and airconditioning on US models, different ratio rear ends and more emissions equipment. More US cars came with whitewalls. I'm sure I missed something.
Any car in the "right condition" for you should be fine - spend money on a good body first, mechanical 2nd and then everything else after that.
Aside from Euro 280SL's, all other engines are basically the same.
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Greetings,
I’m currently helping my father search for a 230SL and was wondering whether there are significant changes between cars built for the US market and those in Europe. I’m based in the UK and have discovered that there seems to be quite a notable divergence between cars for sale in the US and over here in Europe and especially the UK which I assume is just because that’s where the blatant majority of the W113s originally went and thus there’s more supply. We’re currently considering the idea of importing an example from the United States as opposed to buying one from the home market but are curious as to whether one model is inferior to the other based on the original market in which it was built for as is the case with many cars from the era.
Appreciate any advice
Cheers
The steering wheel is in a different place ;)
But a lot of folk buy a US car and import it as there’s likely better value to be had and - depending on the car/history - less chance of a rotten body. Especially if you’re after a driver rather than fully restored
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Hi Greg,
This is a matter of personal preference. Yes, the cars are enhanced each year, but I personally prefer having one from the first year of production, in this case, a '63. There's something special about one from the first year with the initial specs, etc., a 2020 living example of the original 230SL debuted in Geneva in '63. Also, some of the interior chrome work on the 230SLs, to me, is nicer than the 280SLs, such the ignition key housing; I also prefer the bolder 230SL steering wheel and horn ring over the later ones.
Cheers.
Cole
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What he said...
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What he said...
Hi. No comprendo. Please clarify.
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Sorry Cole. A little cryptic and a lot flippant. I was just agreeing with the previous post that having an early (1963) 230 SL is rewarding -- as it is sort of the primogeniture of Pagodas.
PS I have one...
James
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Thanks for getting back to me, James.
I thought maybe you'd been referring back to another post like you said.
BTW, I'm the guy with the #133 230sL and am down here in LA.
I noticed you live up in Cedar Ridge and just looked it up on the map. It looks like quite a nice area up there in the hills.
How early is your 230SL? A couple weeks ago, I talked with a guy who had #3 that he'd sold to someone in EU.
Cheers.
Cole
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.... A couple weeks ago, I talked with a guy who had #3 that he'd sold to someone in EU.
Cheers.
Cole
Cole,
If that guy really owned #3 then he sold one of the most sought after Pagodas anywhere. That car was the first 230SL on American soil and was featured dominantly at the New York Autoshow in 1963:
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=27320.msg196016#msg196016
You can read all about it in PW 14.
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Hey Cole. Mine is number 871. And number 25 with an Automatic transmission.
Yes Cedar Ridge is very pretty. Now to be clear I am in the CR in Nevada County CA. Essentially Grass Valley and Nevada City on the 49/174. There is another CR in Tuolunme? County. To quote Joe Walsh “Ain’t never been there, they tell me it’s nice.”
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Here is #15 which I shot in Padova, Italy about a year ago. This car was also formerly in the USA. Achim knew of this car before it went back to Europe and I believe he went down to look at it in Reggio Emilia late last year.
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Regarding the interiors of the early cars ( 230, early 250 SLs ) vs late model 250SLs and 280 SLs, I think the late model design is truest to the cars design and style.
The early cars were fitted with existing parts from the Pontoon and Heckfloss cars that were designed before the 113s.
To me the later model cars with their rectangular door pulls and mirrors suit the 113 " modern" design better then the earlier round shapes.
Mike S., what would Paul Brach say ?
jz
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The later design changes in the interior were only driven by US safety laws that forced the use of matt chrome, plastics and also the rounding and padding of the dash board top and not any “ modernisation” of design. Paul Bracq had left Mercedes Benz by the time the changes were made to go and work on the TGV high speed trains..
However, each to their own i guess and beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
Garry
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Thanks Garry. I knew I was spouting blasphemy.
But I do think the later style exterior rear view mirror is simpatico with the body's design.
jz
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The later design changes in the interior were only driven by US safety laws that forced the use of matt chrome, plastics and also the rounding and padding of the dash board top and not any “ modernisation” of design. Paul Bracq had left Mercedes Benz by the time the changes were made to go and work on the TGV high speed trains..
However, each to their own i guess and beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
Garry
After a night of working on that girl at the pub, the saying around here became, " Beauty is in the eyes of the beer holder."
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...design changes...only driven by US safety laws...
...Paul Bracq had left Mercedes Benz by the time the changes were made...
Many speak of US safety rules as if there is something WRONG with them. Eventually Europe and the rest of the world caught up with these rules, emissions and otherwise.
My uncle, the former owner of my [1969] 280SL, was nearly killed in his [1964] 230SL in a horrific crash--thank goodness for SOME safety design.
There's been talk on the forums often about "purity of design" and things such as removing the bumper overriders. Go price a new set of bumpers before you answer that question...
Having hit a deer once at 70MPH I'm sure glad I had a lot of "impure design" and lots of US safety features in my car. Thank goodness it wasn't the Pagoda. It would have been destroyed.
I'm very happy I have bumper overriders, proper and modern tail lamp colors, side markers instead of reflectors, retractable 3-point seat belts (done per MB specs) and anything else the MB engineers did on the Pagoda to make it a safer car. Pure of design or not.
Paul Bracq left MB in 1967 to work at Brissonneau and Lotz. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brissonneau_and_Lotz He didn't just work on trains, but also contract work for automotive which led to him being hired by BMW. Since a number of changes to the Pagoda series were in place by the 1969 production year, I'd suggest a lot of this design work may have been in the pipeline in Bracq's last days at MB though I don't know what he was working on in 1966-1967.
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But I do think the later style exterior rear view mirror is simpatico with the body's design.
jz
I just changed the side mirrors on my early 250SL from the later style to the early (and correct to my car) Goose / Swan neck mirrors and just love the look. I cant see shite out of my left hand mirror now (as I mounted it to cover the holes) and couldn't care less. It's all about the look to me - which I guess is something myself and Monsieur Bracq can agree on.
Then again - I'm a purist at heart - so even if they were ugly I probably would have changed them ;D
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...I cant see shite out of my left hand mirror now...
...and what makes you think visibility is any better with a later "impure" design? The only way my side mirrors (driver's and passenger!) became useful was when I fit the convex glass mirrors in them from the Classic Center. No, they are not stenciled "OBJECTS IN MIRROR ARE CLOSER" but I have something akin to a useful field of view! You may be able to find something like that and have it cut down to fit.
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Authentic Classics sells convex mirror glass for the gooseneck and the later 280SL mirrors:
https://www.authenticclassics.com/Convex-Mirror-Glass-for-Mercedes-190SL-230SL-250SL-p/auth-008946.htm
https://www.authenticclassics.com/Convex-Mirror-Glass-for-Optional-outside-Mirrors-p/auth-002816.htm
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hahahah. Good one Dan.
I am truly the beer holder....
jz
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...and what makes you think visibility is any better with a later "impure" design?
Visibility was good before with the later style (LH)mirror as it didn't interfere with the A-Pillar. It's the Goose neck that throws out the mirror position. Unfortunately, I was locked to the position as I wanted the new mirror to cover the holes of the old mirror. Good to know about the convex mirror but no help to me as I am not about to move my mirror and get my door repainted.
I'm not too bothered as some of my classics don't even have a LH side mirror. Funny to hear some (younger) people ask me how I can drive (and park) without a LH mirror? Quite the skill ;)
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Good to know about the convex mirror but no help to me as I am not about to move my mirror and get my door repainted.
You do NOT need to move your mirror and repaint your door to install the convex mirror; it's only a simple glass replacement done "in situ" and would probably serve to turn your mirror into something useful rather that useless; as it stands now if it can't be used it's "baroque ornamentation" and of that I can assure you, Monsieur Bracq is appalled at such things.
It took me but a few seconds to replace my mirror glass, I assume the older style mirrors don't prove any more of a challenge.
The trick is getting the part to you!
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Thanks Michael,
My issue with my LH Mirror is that The line of sight is now physically obscured by the A-Pillar, so changing the reflective glass won’t help.
( remember my car is a RHD)
I really need to physically move the mirror along the door towards the rear of the car - which will expose holes, etc.
This problem didn’t occur when the later style ( incorrect to my car) was installed.
Not a big deal - I still prefer the correct (goose-neck) mirrors.
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As the father said to his child: either fish or aquarium...
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Reminds me of when I was on a business trip and left my then 7y.o in charge feeding my Tropical fish (I had a beautiful 6ft tank)
She thought she would do me a favour and clean the tank - she had seen me use a scourer to clean the algae from the glass - same as is used in the kitchen...…...
…….. except she used detergent...………
I was sitting at Heathrow when I received the call ……all 50 Tropical fish gone to the big aquarium in the sky.
so in this case as the child said to the Father...….either Fish or Aquarium.