Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: stickandrudderman on July 06, 2020, 17:42:33
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Leaping off on a tangient:
I've often wondered what qualifies someone to "judge" these cars?
Just curious.
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In the case of the MBCA Silver Star Preservation Award, my understanding as a take-away from our training was, that an officer in the local chapter of the club was to verify, in person, what an owner represented about his car, in terms of originality, on several forms that he filled out. The officer is to do so only during a MBCA-sanctioned event (National or local level).
The chapter representative then verifies what the owner states. That's it. Then he signs it, and sends it off to MBCA HQ. This is a much less formal and competitive process, as compared to a judged national concours show, such as Amelia or Pebble. No trophies or public announcements are involved. (Although a nice grill badge is available for purchase if an award is made).
There are criteria provided by the MBCA to use when weighing the originality of the car. It's a points system, starting at 100 points, with points deducted for various replaced or non-original parts or finishes. It's a very objective process actually. Either the item or finish is original, or it isn't. If it has been replaced, either it was replaced with an OEM part, or it wasn't.
With this particular car, there were hardly any points deductions taken at all, due to the car's very original condition, as presented.
This being an award created by the Mercedes-Benz Club of America, I don't believe that you have an equivalent award such as this on your side of the Pond, or am I mistaken?
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Car Show Judges....blue blazers, straw hats...Little technical knowledge. Very familiar, personally, with everybody in the "scene"....
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Bit harsh! 😔
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I've been a judge at several concours and while my 25 years experience at a major automotive OEM may not make me a technical expert, I'm proud to collaborate with judges that have restored multiple Amelia and Pebble Beach winners, or are collectors that have deeply researched knowledge about their cars or are authors that have written award-winning marque histories. I certainly agree that there are sometimes disparities in judging qualifications, but, in my experience, many are appropriately qualified to perform their tasks.
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…..and if you show a car at Amelia Island or Pebble Beach and want to win an award, it is always helpful to be part of the "inner circle" 8)
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This thread has really strayed from the original topic. Mods, should it be moved/renamed?
I have judged at classic BMW motorcycle events in the category I am familiar with, bikes made from 1955-1971. I am qualified to do this because I have dismantled these bikes, researched them thoroughly, restored them and own a few. I would decline to judge other vintages because I lack the qualifications. Sure, I can judge the time and effort that went into a restoration, but not the accuracy and detail. Anecdotally, I was at the 2018 Villa Este Concorso, a very ritzy affair attracting some serious automobiles from around the world and noticed that one of the judges was Yasmin Le Bon, ex-model and wife of Duran Duran member Simon, looking very glam in Navy Blazer and Straw Hat....so much for qualifications. I doubt that she ever crawled underneath a car to fix something.
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Hi Colin,
I know and I have met some very knowledgeable Members here in our Group Colin that totally qualify to be judges for our cars. Some of them have owned one since brand new and followed the changes and modifications that have been made since the first car rolled off the assembly line in 1963 to the very end of 1971 when the last one rolled off the assembly line.
Some of them have taken them apart totally during restoration like yourself and during that period got to know what was original and/or improved on the early and late (230, 250 & 280SL), models. Those individuals in my opinion make excellent judges.
That is not to say that every judge qualifies to be a judge on cars or anything else. As you know there are good and bad individuals in every profession. It all depends on the individual's integrity and knowledge.
Anyway that is what I think :)
Dieter
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Car Show Judges....blue blazers, straw hats...Little technical knowledge. Very familiar, personally, with everybody in the "scene"....
That may be true--your pejorative description--for a true Concours d'Elegance employing French rules. The technical accuracy is often irrelevant. At many of the shows I've been to, the judges were surprisingly knowledgable--but you wouldn't know it unless you probed them.
The MBCA has judging schools. Our member here Peter Lesler has taught them for many years.
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There is certainly a difference in shows of a single brand/model/make as opposed to a "Concours" like Amelia Island or Pebble. The reason I am sounding a "bit harsh" is because I had my experiences, which made me decide some 20 years ago, not to enter a show anymore. Neither car nor motorcycle. While my SL is definitely not show material anyway, I have a couple of other drives/rides which are.
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There is certainly a difference in shows of a single brand/model/make as opposed to a "Concours" like Amelia Island or Pebble. The reason I am sounding a "bit harsh" is because I had my experiences, which made me decide some 20 years ago, not to enter a show anymore. Neither car nor motorcycle. While my SL is definitely not show material anyway, I have a couple of other drives/rides which are.
I've heard that complaint before and it's all about perspective. There are some members here who couldn't stand going to even an MBCA single marque concours, because they couldn't stand to be criticized on their car. I relished the criticism, and the likes of Peter Lesler, Joe Alexander and many more were what allowed me to improve my car immeasurably after the restoration. Some cannot stand to hear the truth, others embrace it.
A Pagoda will probably never win anything at an Amelia, and we'll all be long gone before one ever even gets to Pebble. But, "the third Concours"--Meadow Brook, now known as Concours of America at St. Johns, will invite a Pagoda, and in 2006, my car was invited. I was in a class with the last Big Block Corvette off the line, and very rare cars including a BMW 507, a British Daimler SP250, a 1962 Porsche 356 1600 Reuter Cabriolet to name those I remember. Not a snowball's chance in &^%$ that a Pagoda would stand to garner ANY ribbon in that bunch! But--and this is important--amongst ALL THAT majestic iron, and cars worth many hundreds of thousands of dollars, and exceedingly rare--what was the ONE CAR that brought the most smiles, and provided the most photo-ops for the attendees? Yes, the Pagoda.
Who needs a ribbon?
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-what was the ONE CAR that brought the most smiles, and provided the most photo-ops for the attendees? Yes, the Pagoda.
Who needs a ribbon?
Michael,
I could not agree more with your comment. A ribbon awarded by a few judges is nice but will never equal the satisfaction from all the smiles on the faces of those who see the car.
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I could not agree more !
Ray
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All that everyone is writing is spot on. Twenty years ago I was part of a judging team (not a judge but a recorder of information) at an event that had a Ralph Lauren Entry. It wasn't 1st in its Class but got moved up as I was told "we want him back next year." I realized alot from that.
Since that time I have been part of a number of Concours and I can say they cover all bases of expertise. Even some Pagoda only judging has it's flaws with judges not knowing the differences between 230-280sl (e.g. sub-frame covers) or even some production differences within the 230sl.
However there also is the reverse. Much can be learned from someone who has appropriate expertise, simply by entering a Concours.
Last Fall, I was fortunate to be invited to the Hilton Head Island Concours in South Carolina. My Class on Sunday included 190-280SL's reviewed by judges who also reviewed many other car models/classes and with some rules particular to HHI Show, not known before getting there. Oh well.
But, I also participated in the Mercedes-Benz Car Club showcase on Saturday attended by Peter Lesler. Peter spent much time with me "judging" but also analyzing and educating on subtleties of my Pagoda. That alone was "worth the price of admission"
So, All that everyone is writing is spot on.
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I was asked to be a judge at three of the 190SL conventions I went to. I could tell which car was going to win even before we even started but it was probably the best two hours of learning on those cars that I ever spent.
I think most people would agree that the black 600 we brought to COA in 2013 was a far better car than the green one but it wasn't good enough to beat out politics. I'd do it again without hesitation though. Great day.
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I can't imagine the knowledge required to even be a great Pagoda judge. After 14 years of study of literally every nut, bolt and screw on my car I consider myself an expert. However, my expertise only covers a very narrow range of 280's. I know the late run 1970's and 71's and only the US spec ones at that. The European ones are different. Just in the 280's there are about 6 major sub groups and countless assembly line changes. Hats off to anybody willing to put themselves out there.
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Judges do their best, it's a bit of a thankless job.
In any given judging event, the ranking of the cars is probably accurate (political influences aside) since the same judges are judging each entry and the same knowledge, biases and effort, or lack thereof, are applied to each entry. It's when comparing rankings from different competitions at different times, even within the same concours event, that you can find wide variation in the quality of a car the receives a particular judging outcome. In other words, a best of show winner one year in a particular judging event may be very different than a best of show winner in another year, and certainly from an entirely different judging event.
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I judged my first National Mercedes-Benz Club of America Concours at Road America Wisconsin in 1976. My teacher and judging partner was Count Marcus Cleary of Mercedes Benz AG. I've always tried to judge the cars on merit and leave the politics out.
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The politics shows up in the point tallying and awarding process.
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The politics show up in the point tallying and awarding process.
Sort of. Before we started someone spoke up and said that we didn't need to get too anal about scoring the cars. I disagreed saying that if we didn't they'd all score the same if went that route.
We split the car into several areas like engine bay, interior and trim, undercarriage, and exterior with trim. Each area had two judges and when we were done we tallied up the marks and then we compared notes. I believe the best car won because they were rated by 8 - 10 people who all had to agree on the same car. In this case, the home restored car beat out the professional operation. He kept bringing his car back until it scored near perfect.
This was at the West Point 190SL convention.
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Your explanation of the 190 SL International Group judging methodology is correct. It doesn't contradict my points. I'm very familiar with the 190 SL judging process and tried futilely to bring more objectivity to it so year to year judging scores were more comparative. Judging is what it is. Serves it's purpose, is a source of entertainment and education, and a sales badge of honor for owners and restoration shops.
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Nothing stays the same forever. Last time I was a judge at a 190SL convention was, I think 2002, so I expect some things have changed since then. I saw the experience as a good learning opportunity, which it was.
I've won awards at small local and regional shows and then I've seen nothing when I brought a 300SL to the same show the next year. It means nothing in most cases.