Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => W11x chassis cars => Topic started by: perry113 on February 08, 2020, 16:49:10
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I wanted to post some pictures for all to see of my 1963 220seb coupe. It has been a long and tedious 8 years of sympathetic yet comprehensive restoration of a totally rust free documented survivor. It was parked in a dry basement with next to the furnace in upstate NY when I discovered it. It was his deceased wife's car. She was willed the car by her deceased sister. The sister's once ran a gift shop in the Adelphi building in Saratoga Springs NY.
This car is a true rust free survivor. The original records show it to be a European USA spec delivery car. It was all over Europe in its first few months.
There are still minor details needed and I have not yet install the outer wheel trim rings.
The car was redone in it's original Papryus White 717 and Reseda Green 212 color combination. I could not help adding an optional Black Roof and center cap option to it.
The early W111 220seb's are wonderful cars that represent the original W111 design.
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Wow! Fantastic job. I think you made a good decision the just clean up the original underside instead refinishing it. That is a great example of what it would look like from the factory. Were the cream colored sill covers original to the car? I am a bit confused as to when it should be colored or just plain black. I am not sure what the formula was or maybe an option?
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beautiful exceptional car!
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That is fantastic looking.
It is the same year and spec as mine. My car is painted black but it should be Papyrus white too. The green interior is really rare too (or many people have changed it out in the past)
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Amazing !
Great that you shared the photos. Love the interior. My 250sl is a 717 color also. really great work.
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Beautiful car. Mine is white with black leather interior that I picked up at the factory in July, 1964. Personally, I'm sorry that you didn't resist the urge to paint the roof and cap centers black. IMHO. the introduction of the third color adds a discordant note and detracts from the body design. Dark color floor mats would also provide less visual conflict.
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Wow! Fantastic job. I think you made a good decision the just clean up the original underside instead refinishing it. That is a great example of what it would look like from the factory. Were the cream colored sill covers original to the car? I am a bit confused as to when it should be colored or just plain black. I am not sure what the formula was or maybe an option?
Hi Wallace.
Your question is a good one. When I got the car the rocker covers were black. So I assume and also in looking at other W111's saw them black so I restored them as such. Did some of them have body color rocker covers? If so were they 220"s?
Beautiful car. Mine is white with black leather interior that I picked up at the factory in July, 1964. Personally, I'm sorry that you didn't resist the urge to paint the roof and cap centers black. IMHO. the introduction of the third color adds a discordant note and detracts from the body design. Dark color floor mats would also provide less visual conflict.
I do appreciate your feedback. I admit I was torn about the 2 tone black roof and caps and hugely on the mats. I can see the car all 1 color and it would be possible to paint the roof and caps Papyrus White in the future. I had also seen other examples of the 2 tone set up and found it so striking. I really wanted black with green spot coco mats. I presented a business case to coco mats to make a run of them and posted in SL113, early911S, 912BBS, 190SL forums to stir the pot trying to get car owners who wanted them to calll to build the case. In the end I went back and forth on Black vs Calico vs Tan vs tan/White. Still uncertain but they could always be changed easily by myself or a future owner for that matter.
I would love to see pictures of your 220 ejboyd5 and PeterPortugal.
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Peter,
I love the black roof and wheel caps.
I have a silver 280SE coupe that looks plain. Some chap on here posted pictures of his with a black roof and wheel covers and I thought it looked fantastic.
EJBoyd - I respect your view too. It's all personal taste. I find the "Reseda Green" a bit in your face but as it's the original colour it's the right choice for this very original car.
Regards
Peter
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Wallace and Perry, the entrance rail sill coverings were color coded to the interiors (for the most part). One exception was that medium red and bright red interiors had 029 medium grey entrance rail sill coverings,while rust red interiors had 504 beige. Regardless, for interior trim code 212 the entrance rail sill coverings were originally Reseda Green, color code 1078. In the pictures below, note the pages out of the PKW-Austattungen. (Interior appointments book) Where it says "Scheuerschutz Fahrerraum, Einstiege", and then "Riffelgummi" out to the side of it.....this all translates to "Abrasion protection driver's cabin, entrances", and "Ribbed Rubber", respectively. This tells us what color all of the entrance rail sill coverings and interior anti abrasion pads were. These include the heel pad on the drivers floor carpet and the anti abrasion pad to the right of the foot feed on the transmission tunnel carpeting. Note that it says "1078 Resedagrün". It would be nearly impossible to find rubber matting both in the correct color and design, so black would have probably the best option over creme`. But if Creme` is what you like then I support your decision!
It's a beautiful car done very well! I would only recommend (very respectfully to you) to eventually install a scuff pad on the transmission tunnel carpeting, one on the drivers floor carpeting (if not already there), bound the top section of the transmission tunnel carpeting in vinyl, find a correct radio faceplate bezel and knobs, repair the fitment of the seat coverings and rid the front seat backrests of the sewn seams on the sides, straighten the front bumper, install a new turn signal stalk ivory knob, and install the 4 jack port coverings on the rocker panels. I'm at odds with the actual carpeting in that the color is spot on, but the material looks odd. Then again, finding short nap Reseda green wool carpeting with the dark flecks in it just isn't going to happen, so again you probably chose the next best thing.
Thank you for sharing this. I have an affinity for older 1960's and 1970's era Mercedes with green interiors. So I loved seeing the unusual Reseda green interior. :)
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Aaron,
Thank you for posting and that is very interesting! So did they have the color coded sill material during the entire run for of the W111s or maybe just the early 220SE? My reasoning here is that the early cars had more expensive interior appointments than the later cars. Much of it was done in the name of safety, but the changes always ended up being a less expensive alternative.
My '68 280SE W111 coupe has a dark olive green exterior and the cognac interior. I replaced the black sill material and am pretty sure it was original. Most of the interior had not been replaced and the sill material was very hard and brittle.
My '60 W128 220SE Ponton coupe is a grey white exterior and bright red interior. While not 100% sure it was original, the sill material was black. A friend has a '60 220SE W128 coupe with a black exterior and tan interior. His sill material is creme/beige and is for sure original. Are you saying my W128 should have a medium grey sill material?
Thank you for your help!
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Wallace, the W111 and W112 coupe` and cabriolets did have colored entrance rail sill coverings throughout the production run, but as the years went on they did drop a color or two. The last handful of 250 (Approximately the last 100) and all 280 models in particular were the recipients of this. For your car with the cognac interior the entrance rail sill covering would have been "dunkelbraun", or dark brown. (see pictures below) As this material ages it darkens, and you wouldn't be the first one to mistake what was once dark brown for black......because it really looks black when it gets some age on it. I feel that black was the best choice considering dark brown isn't available, and black seems to tie in with the cognac leather better than creme`.
However, for the 280 models the section covering the "Riffelgummi" changed the section description to "Belag Einstieg aussen", or "bottom entry, outside". I can only speculate that they did this because the heel pad and the anti scuff mat to the right of the foot feed always seemed to be the same color. Yet, I've seen just the opposite on several models. It wasn't uncommon for Mercedes to use a different color during production if they had run out of a certain color. Sadly, this would not have been noted anywhere.
For the late 250 and all of the 280 models there were a total of 4 colors used for the entrance rail sill coverings. Dark brown, dark blue, dark grey, and beige. The blue and brown fool even the best of us into making us think they were black all because they darken with age. They were really dark shades of brown and blue to start with, so it doesn't take much. Interestingly, the beige covering was used only on cars with interior trim code 251 Beige.
Now, with the very late W111 3.5 models (003455 onward) a two more colors were introduced, but two were removed. So only 4 colors were still available. The new colors were Bright beige and blue. These replaced beige and dark blue. Though, the majority of interior colors utilized the dark grey color. Where the different colors came in seemed to be for interior trim codes that specified a two two tone interior. For example, interior trim code 256 (parchment) came with dark brown entrance rail coverings and dark brown carpeting, and interior trim code 255 (also parchment) came with blue entrance rail coverings and dark blue carpeting. I imagine this was done to be more appealing to the eye when the door was opened.....they didn't want us to see a dark gray entrance rail covering with dark blue carpeting.
Conversely, for the 220 and most 300 models there were a total of 5 colors used for the entrance rail sill coverings. Medium grey, Creme`, Blue Grey, Beige, and Olive Green.
For the W128......I'd have to find my early interior appointments book to answer this part of your post with any certainty. Given that a lot of the very late W128 attributes carried over to the very early W111 and W112 coupe` and cabriolet models I can only assume that black or grey would be correct, as that's what was usually used with red interiors. When I get home I can look this information up for you. Just keep after me so I won't forget! :)
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All I have to say is WOW! I am sorry to Peter that I hijacked his thread, but what a treasure trove of information that came out. I am happy with the black in the 280SE, but not in the W128. So looking on-line, I did find medium gray sill material that was not available until recently. So it is headed this way! That is going to look nice. Thank you and if you do find the pages for the W128, I would appreciate it so I can document it.
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I'm only happy that some use came out of what I posted pictures of. :) Feel free to continue conversing with me via private message, Wallace.
Peter, my intent wasn't to hijack your thread, either. So back to you, kind sir.
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Regardless, for interior trim code 212 the entrance rail sill coverings were originally Reseda Green, color code 1078. In the pictures below, note the pages out of the PKW-Austattungen. (Interior appointments book) Where it says "Scheuerschutz Fahrerraum, Einstiege", and then "Riffelgummi" out to the side of it.....this all translates to "Abrasion protection driver's cabin, entrances", and "Ribbed Rubber", respectively. This tells us what color all of the entrance rail sill coverings and interior anti abrasion pads were. These include the heel pad on the drivers floor carpet and the anti abrasion pad to the right of the foot feed on the transmission tunnel carpeting. Note that it says "1078 Resedagrün". It would be nearly impossible to find rubber matting both in the correct color and design,
Wallace, Peter Aaron,
Surely you can find something more appropriate than boaring black. ;)
Here! :D ;D
https://www.ok-gummiwerk.de/produkt/en-turschwellerauflage-fur-klassische-mercedes-benz-fahrzeuge/?lang=en#prettyPhoto[product-gallery]/0/
At least "green" is availble but sadly not "brown".
But most important is here, Gentlemen, that light ivory is available in the exact color tone and pattern as was/is original on my '63 with its red interior (Code 203). ;) :D
I was looking for that correct door sill rubber for 32 years - until I found it ....!
Now, where's the dark grey for the '64 ... (interior code 201)? ::) :P :-[
Guess, I have to stain the (light) grey they have... ???
Achim
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Yay! Finally a place that offers most of what was offered. I wonder why dark brown isn't available?
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Thanks for posting Achim! Yeah, too bad. Dark brown would be great! I wonder how the caramel would look with the cognac and dark olive green exterior? I think the nougat would be too gaudy. The black mat that is in there now looks ok but not fabulous.
How easy is it to order from them for shipping to the US?
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Achim.....I was reading your post that you cited in your last bit of commentary. You stated:
"But most important is here, Gentlemen, that light ivory is available in the exact color tone and pattern as was/is original on my '63 with its red interior (Code 203)
Have a look at the picture below. You'll notice that this page covers 230SL cars with interior trim code 203. Look down on the left column where is says "Bodenbelag Fahrerbodenlinks und recht Einstiege", and then "Gummimatten". Out to the right under the "203" column you'll see a color code 6131 and a color name of Anthracite Grey. This essentially says that your entrance rail sill mats are supposed to be anthracite grey and not light ivory. If you already knew that then please disregard my commentary. :)
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Oh yes, Aaron,
That's correct - according to your list.
But the version of the "PKW-Austattungen -Interior appointments" book you have got is younger than my car. It is from post-1965,
and my (one) 230 is from 1963. There were very well different versions of these "PKW-Austattungen -Interior appointments" books available every few years.
And ah yes, there _have_ been some changes (for the 230 SL until 012466 and after 012467 to be exact) and for instance the grab handle on the passenger door panel, the padding on the ashtray and the padding in the window cranks were always black until this change-over in Aug 1965. Thereafter those were "roughly" in interior color - as your list indicates.
I have to dig out the earlier list (I have only got the part for the 230 SL, not for the other contemporary W111s and so on), and that earlier list clearly indicated ivory for the door sill rubbers - and that is what it was on my car.
Sorry ....
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Dark brown would be great! I wonder how the caramel would look with the cognac and dark olive green exterior? I think the nougat would be too gaudy. The black mat that is in there now looks ok but not fabulous.
How easy is it to order from them for shipping to the US?
Hello Wallace,
Well, I dunno! I have never ordered from them from outside Germany.
I ordered from them last year (from inside DE) and their service was top class.
I have got the pictured samples stack from them and will check how the "nougat" or caramel looks with cognac (my 114 has got 8006, code 250) and let you know.
I could also check for you whether they are willing to send to the US or not...
Best,
Achim
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Achim, The book I referred to in my picture is for 230SL models from production start up until 012466. I did not reference the later book. There were not different versions of the PKW-Austattungen book. There were only two publications put out during the production run of the Pagoda. However, there were many reprints, and those are the ones that are noted to have misprints and mistakes in them, as well as complete missing pages. The book I have was printed in 1963, while the other two e"early" books I have were printed in 1964 and 1965. Between the three there are differences/mistakes/missing pages.....but none of them show any red interiors with creme` entrance rail sill mats. With all of that in mind, I conferred with three other people that also have the original publication from 1963. All of their books showed that red interiors had grey entrance rail sill mats. There is one exception, though. Interior trim code 214 (rust red) had brown entrance rail sill mats for all 230SL, as well as early 250SL.
I find it hard to believe that Mercedes would do something so brazen as to pair Creme` sill mats with a red interior, as doing so goes against their previous and post color pairings. However, if you still disagree, then I respect that. All I ask is for you to reconsider the information that you presently have. And please don't apologize to me. We all make mistakes. No worries. :)
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Hello Wallace,
Well, I dunno! I have never ordered from them from outside Germany.
I ordered from them last year (from inside DE) and their service was top class.
I have got the pictured samples stack from them and will check how the "nougat" or caramel looks with cognac (my 114 has got 8006, code 250) and let you know.
I could also check for you whether they are willing to send to the US or not...
Best,
Achim
Yes, I am interested Achim if you don't mind.
Thanks.
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Yes, Wallace,
Will do so.
Unfortunately currently I have buried the samples somehow but will dig out these as soon as I can for you.
Here is a picture from them from the net...,
I think the nougat comes pretty close to cognac...
Best,
Achim
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Achim, The book I referred to in my picture is for 230SL models from production start up until 012466. I did not reference the later book.
Hello Aaron,
You might have realized it took me a couple of days to find the suitable words in order to answer properly to your comments - which are absolutely correct BTW.
Well, the point is we both had here for the second time conversations where it goes into deep detail...; although you are a very young "Group member" here (only 2 months so far), you have provided a wealth of knowledge here to the members, well looked into the details
- no wonder by your phantastic list of cars you own. Even a 600 Grand is in your collection!
Highly appreciate that.
Well (2nd 'well')...,
I did the very big mistake to buy the first (for me) buyable 230 SL I could get hands on 34 years ago... I was young back then ..., and I should not have done so. :D
Because that thing was a basket case, however a very early one - and my birth year! So I had to get it!
Well (3rd time) I learned a damned lot since then -especially by observing other people's cars, look and count the (often different) details and properly read the parts list and available factory literature - which wasn't much in the old days.
To make a long story short..., I do know very well that early 230ies with red interior (at least with some of the numerous red interiors available for the 230ies) came with ivory/beige door sill rubbers.
But I cannot prove it (anymore) right now. I have buried the pieces of factory proof somewhere in my archive stacks, and before I haven't reached out to them
- it is easy,
I cannot prove this - and you are right, and Achim is wrong.
It is that easy.
I can always claim whatever I want but if I cannot prove it - it's just not true. :o
So you are right for the time being. 8)
I go and dig out what I can find ....,
here is already a pic of VIN no. 000064 - barn find, non-restored.
On TechnoClassica in Germany 2016 - US version
red interior (2500) with ivory door sill rubbers.
No. 000015 had that too but with interior code 203 (leather 1079)...
Still, we need this piece of factory documentation here.
I keep on looking.
Sorry for the confusion here, please...
Best,
Achim
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Achim, I don't really have an interest in being right or wrong, per say. I only want to represent what the literature tells us. Even so, we also have to remember that it wasn't uncommon for Mercedes to use a different color if they were out of another color. So that may also have some bearing on this.....maybe.
However, I must correct myself....or at least try to explain where I misspoke in my previous commentary. ( I screwed up) Initially, I was only looking at leather interiors and not MB-Tex. It turns out that the early 230SL with interior trim code 122 (Hellrot MB-Tex) did have a light colored entrance rail sill mat....6415 beige. But not creme`. However, interior trim code 117 Rot did have grey sill mats. To our eyes there is an obvious difference between creme` and beige, but I'm not sure if Mercedes thought so. So your guess is as good as mine. I just wanted to let you know that I now see what you're talking about. However, nothing in any of the literature I have states that any of the red leather interiors had anything but gray entrance rail sill mats, that only the MB-Tex hellrot interiors had a beige sill mat. So at this point I'm going to just accept that some red leather interiors had light colored entrance rail sill mats for unknown reasons.
And thank you for the kind words and vote of confidence. Yes, I'm the new guy that no one wants to listen to. That's just how it goes. I can only hope that after a while my commentary will mean something to those who read. It is very hard not to come off as a "know it all", or as condescending or conceited. I'm the furthest thing from any of those. I just don't know any other way to relay the information......maybe if I make a video about some things and post the link that'll help to get rid of the stigma of it all.
So again, I see what you're talking about, and I hope you and the other readers will understand why I initially said what I had said. My apologies for any confusion.
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Dear Arron,
An Update here...,
I have to admit and I have to be fair against you...,
now I found one of my (two) pieces of factory documentation I was referring to,
and that document confirms clearly what you say.
There were very few interor colors (also one red) with 6415 beige door sill rubbers (yes correct of course: beige not creme, I was just inaccurate here...).
Or, with other words: Aaron was correct and Achim was wrong!
I cannot prove (by literature) what I was claiming,
so I am very very sorry what I said and have to withdraw my claim.
As I cannot prove this by now - it hasn't been in the old days - that's it.
Sorry to all for the confusion.
Mea culpa ....,
Achim
(unimportant as to whether some very very early cars had some "effects" that were barely anyhow documented.., my claim could not be proven by the literature..., that's it!)
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Aaron and Achim, dont want to interfere in your discussion , just want to say i really enjoy you guys being here and share all your knowledge with us.
thank you and keep going!
Mark
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https://www.ok-gummiwerk.de/produkt/en-turschwellerauflage-fur-klassische-mercedes-benz-fahrzeuge/?lang=en#prettyPhoto[product-gallery]/0/
At least "green" is availble but sadly not "brown".
But most important is here, Gentlemen, that light ivory is available in the exact color tone and pattern as was/is original on my '63 with its red interior (Code 203). ;) :D
I was looking for that correct door sill rubber for 32 years - until I found it ....!
Now, where's the dark grey for the '64 ... (interior code 201)? ::) :P :-[
Guess, I have to stain the (light) grey they have... ???
Achim
Great news!!!!! I received my samples from OK Gummiwerk. They have expanded their colors and now have 10! New ones include dark green, dark blue and......Dark brown!!! ;D Owners with Cognac interiors rejoice. The dark brown is conservative and I am torn between that and the"nougat" which looks better in person than on their website.
They do sell to the US also. The samples I received seem to have the correct pattern although a bit thicker and almost a full 4mm. Seems like the others I have see are 3mm or so. The thicker may fit better against the side chrome rails which always seem to have an annoying gap with the 3mm mat.
Their grey is lighter than the one that MB Classics (Germany sells). I have both now and can compare. So if you are looking for a darker grey. look here - https://www.mbclassics.de/sill-rubber-mat-set-W111cp-Ponton-Coupe-Cab-grey
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Looking at the samples I have, I changed my mind a bit on the W111 sill mat color. Mine car is a dark olive with Cognac leather.
According to Aaron's book, the door sill color should be dark brown. The dark brown from OK Gummiwerk is a bit on the purple side and only a bit more exciting than the black. My next thought was Nougat. But it is too much the same as the rest of the interior. So my final choice is..... Caramel! It looks really good with the dark olive and lightens up the other colors in the interior. Not what Mother Mercedes chose, but what I like the best.
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Here is a pic of the samples I got. Of note:
4th from left - Dark green
5th from left - dark blue
7th from left - Brasil (sort of dark brown)
9th from left - Caramel (what I am using for the W111)
10th from the left- Grey (what I am using for the W128 with white/gray and red leather)
I tried to get the color as close as I could to the actual samples. But everyone's monitors will be different.