Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: parabous on December 17, 2019, 11:10:38
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I'm considering taking my 280SL to concours standard or buying another and restoring it.
Are all parts available, will I need to remanufacture anything?
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I was in Brisbane in November; you could have bought me a beer and I'd have given you chapter and verse!
Anyway, you'll be surprised at how much of it is still available from Mercedes but some things will have to come from after-market and a small few parts will have to be made.
This forum generally has all the answers you'll need.
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I got myself the vdh catalogs from mercedesclubs.de in Germany. They have an engine and a body version. These are put together in coordination with Daimler Benz and show all the parts that are still available from the factory. If any part from the illustrated diagrams is not listed with a part-number, you have to look for it elsewhere. 8)
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Part of the fun in restoring any car is tracking down the parts. Virtually everything needed is out there depending on how deep your pockets are. If you are on any heart meds, I advise against the idea.
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Well, Parabous...,
What a question.... ::)
Are you aware what you are getting into?
A car up to concours level is a very high expectation.
Expect to do a lot of work, especially detailing, exact and proper detailling,
and throw in a lot of money.
Even if you do it yourself, expect a(n elevated) six-digit number then.
Don't know how good your own 280 SL already is,
but see Brian Peter's homepage:
www.motoringinvestments.com
and the description of his "award-winning restorations",
then you have already a pretty good overview of what you are getting into.
Basically it is about the following:
1) start with the best survivor (!) car you can get
2) make everything (at least) look like new
3) use as much the proper materials (leather, paint, carpet, hoses, etc.) as possible
4) apply the utmost highest standards you could achieve
5) and mainly...
...bringing a car (a Pagoda here) to award-winning condition is not so much about parts availability. You will find yourself able to commercially buy most if not all parts for your project you could imagine..., it's more about money.
5a) The main hurdle is to bring up the car to proper standard.
Today's jurors and judges are so trained, they see everything. And these cars are full of very special details like proper insulation mats, proper hose clamps here and there (different of course based on the location where they are placed), proper stickers, what is yellow cadmium plated and what is not and so on.... - and lots of differences based on the built year!
Basically,
it takes a lot of experience (!) to bring up a Pagoda fully to concours standard...,
there are many cars out there which are from their overall condition more or less perfect.
However, is always about the tiny details to make the difference.
Or, with other words, even the most expensive 'Hemmels' and 'Brabus'-like restorations, which we have discussed here pretty often, are usually a tank full of little incorrectnesses, which render them to "not good enough for concours level" although a $299,000 price tag was already posted behind the windshield.... :-X
Good luck!
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I have been in the "Vintage" or "Classic" (sorry, Dan Caron) vehicle business for quite some time. And as I said elsewhere here, my biggest pet peeve has become the frustration I experienced with the guys in the straw hats and blue blazers, who think they know something more than those who spend their lives involved with a certain vehicle and then mark it down for having the wrong air pressure in the tires. I WILL NOt, EVER put any vehicle in a show/concourse again in my life!
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Wow...!
Very well observed and spoken, Mike... :D
That's also my observation (albeit never being eligible for a concours level),
it's more about some (personally) important details, :o
rather than the overall condition ???
- which has to be excellent of course ...
As such, I prefer keep driving my car,
while maintaining the SL as good as I can & can get. 8)
;) ;)
(Remaining) life (expectation) is too short to spend the whole day disputing various matters on utmost little details,
which keep us off driving these cars.
Enjoy! ;)
Achim
(w/ nonperfect Strichacht and Pagoda)
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For all its worth this is how Hagerty defines car conditions:
#1 Concours
Condition #1 vehicles are the best in the world. The visual image is of the best vehicle, in the right colors, driving onto the lawn at the finest concours. Perfectly clean, the vehicle has been groomed down to the tire treads. Painted and chromed surfaces are mirror-like. Dust and dirt are banned, and materials used are correct and superbly fitted. The one word description for #1 vehicles is "concours."
#2 Excellent
Condition #2 vehicles could win a local or regional show. They can be former #1 vehicles that have been driven or have aged. Seasoned observers will have to look closely for flaws, but will be able to find some not seen by the general public. The paint, chrome, glass and finishes will all appear as excellent. No excessive smoke will be seen on start up, no unusual noises will emanate from the engine. The vehicle will drive as a new vehicle of its era would. The one word description for #2 vehicles is "excellent."
#3 Good
Condition #3 vehicles could possess some, but not all of the issues of a #4 vehicle, but they will be balanced by other factors such as a fresh paint job or a new, correct interior where applicable. #3 vehicles drive and run well, but might have some incorrect parts. These vehicles are not used for daily transportation but are ready for a long tour without excuses, and the casual passerby will not find any visual flaws. "Good" is the one word description of a #3 vehicle.
#4 Fair
Condition#4 vehicles are daily drivers, with flaws visible to the naked eye. The chrome might have pitting or scratches, the windshield might be chipped. Paintwork is imperfect, and perhaps the body has a minor dent. Split seams or a cracked dash, where applicable, might be present. No major parts are missing, but the wheels could differ from the originals, or other non- stock additions might be present. A #4 vehicle can also be a deteriorated restoration. "Fair" is the one word that describes a #4 vehicle.
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I recognize that the original post simply asked about parts availability but since following posts address the issue of "concours" quality let me add my 2 cents:
I agree with Mike and others here that I have no intention of ever submitting my car to be judge to a standard that I believe to be absurd. That said, and having judged cars in the past at a local level, the problem presents itself when multiple cars being judged are at a very high level of restoration or original quality. Judges have to look more closely at details to differentiate the cars and determine an ultimate "winner". This leads to the "picky little details" that seem trivial but are, alas, necessary in any judging contest.
To parabous: I would suggest you review high quality examples at websites / restoration facilities that specialize in W113 vehicles and determine in advance just how far you want to go with your "Concours Level" restoration. For some, the enjoyment is in the journey and not necessarily how many trophy's you bring home. That and your pocketbook should guide you along the way. :)
Good luck however you decide to move forward and keep us posted on your progress.
Norm
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… and then, of course, there is always the matter of making it so nice that one is afraid to even drive it!
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All fantastic input - thank you. I'm definitely not looking to actually enter the car into Concours events, my use of the word was to have the car to be as new (or as close to) as possible but not going to the levels required to go to Pebble Beach :)
I've been continuing my research and to find a restoration company experienced with Pagodas, I'm having to look further afield than Australia and so (being RHD), the obvious place is back in the UK. I've been looking at Hemmels https://www.hemmels.com/w113-280sl-pagoda-roadster (https://www.hemmels.com/w113-280sl-pagoda-roadster) but to purchase the car through them and import to Australia would mean it would become around $520k USD after all the fees so I'm now considering shipping my car to them and having my car as the donor so that I pay tax only on the increased value upon import.
I understand someone else in Australia has done the same thing and I'm going to try and track them down to hear about their experience.
Going this route is a little more hands-off than I'd envisaged so I'm still thinking about how to be involved with a local mechanic here in Australia (if I can find one) so that I can enjoy the parts sourcing and the journey a little more.
I also found these guys but got told they are fully booked until 2022: http://prostar.com.au/classic-mercedes-car-sales/ (http://prostar.com.au/classic-mercedes-car-sales/)
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There are a few places in Australia that will do good restorations of these vehicles
I am in Victoria so one suggestion is Reinhardt Klavers and son Michael phn 0466 121 918 who are down here in Melbourne.
He is ex Lindsay Fox Collection curator and does good work to concourse level. He just did a W111. that won the MB Australian Concourse this last year.
A job like that will take at least a year and maybe more to have done and very deep pockets in the $ hundreds of thousands.
Garry
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Hi Parabous,
Garry is 100% correct - in fact, everyone who has chimed in, is correct (once you factor that things cost significantly more in Aust. and RHD parts are also more expensive and harder to source).
I'm 5 years in to my restoration, so I know......Oh boy do I know!!! (3 - 6 months more to finish I would say).
I believe "Sleeping Beauties" in Qld do world class restorations. You might want to check with them before going to Hemmels?
Rob
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Parabus,
I agree with Rob re Sleeping Beauties - check out their web site - they have international clients who sent them cars for restoration - they are at Moorooka.
If you just want a chat about life, the universe and Pagodas send me an email and we can have a coffee/beer whatever. I`m at Birkdale.
George
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I've had a response to my classifieds ad seeking a former Mercedes specialist from a Master Mercedes engineer that has restored numerous cars locally for a well known collector...will keep you posted!
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Have you considered Brian Peters at Motoring Investments in San Diego, California? He is a Pagoda restoration expert and can source the "preservation" car as a candidate for your restoration. He goes over the cars with a fine tooth comb, and gives you his honest opinion at how much you'd be looking at to get it to the level you desire.(top level car is usually in the $300,000+ range depending on the initial state of the car). Disclaimer: I have a biased opinion as I work for him at MI, but I appreciate his thoroughness. Brian was also a speaker at the recent Pagodafest in Carlsbad and most people on this forum know his work or have heard of him.
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I've been getting more advice from an old contact of mine that had a classic car business for about 20 years and has always been in the game. His advice: Just buy the best and leave the headache and excess cost to someone else.
I'm pondering.
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This is an interesting thread regarding "Concours"
Before you begin, you need to define what "Concours" would mean to you.
Here in the US there are MBCA section level events, mixed show events and also the high level events like Amelia Island and Pebble Beach.
I have seen many Concours events utilize what I would call "Impression Judging" which simply is which car looks the nicest to the judge vs whether every thing is correct like the brake booster hosing is white (as on a 280SL) or is it the correct material coated hosing (as on a 230SL) or are there sub-frame covers on the judged 280SL (incorrect) etc.
Often, "Provenance" is a major factor separating cars. Two cars could be equally excellent (or even one better than the other) but one was owned by Ringo Starr or Marlon Brando - guess who wins.
I recently participated in the Hilton Head Island Concours. There was a 300SL Roadster there just finished by Scott Grundfor and which to me was excellent but won nothing. Another one won as it had "history."
Some things to consider before you start. And then, there also is Concours politics.
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NormI've been getting more advice from an old contact of mine that had a classic car business for about 20 years and has always been in the game. His advice: Just buy the best and leave the headache and excess cost to someone else.
I'm pondering.
Pretty good advice. If you are not into creating your version of the "perfect Pagoda" and find one that is confirmed at the level of restoration that you desire and fits your budget....... You win! ;D
Keep us posted what you find or how you decide to proceed.
Norm
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Listen: there are Concours, and there are Concours.
The "straw hats and blue blazers" type of shows don't pretend to know any vast knowledge about any pedantic details of any specific model or marque...though you may find the occasional judge who does indeed have very specific knowledge about some specific car. However in most of the notable Concours (you know the usual cast of characters) they are using what are known as "French Rules" for judging. Nobody will ding you for a few less PSI in your tires, but if those tires don't look drop dead spotless, that will be taken into account. Elegance, cleanliness, provenance and even who owns the car all come into play. Generally the judges don't know good from bad under carriage or underhood. That's not the point.
We all learn from each other and a quick way to do that is a Concours where your car is judged. The problem is many of us can't stand it when flaws are pointed out; others embrace the criticism as a way to get better, and that's what I did. I've been blessed early on with my car, in that it has been judged at a number of MBCA Concours by people (all highly respected experts) such as Joe Alexander, Peter Lesler, and Jon Bernardi--and many times I came away with a list of things to do. I have won many first place and Best of Show awards with my car...the first one when Dan Caron took my car (in his place for service) on a road trip to an MBC of Canada Concours. I didn't even know that until I saw a picture of it in an MBCA publication!!
Despite my car's long history of wins and all the trophys it has earned, in a general show--the straw hats and blue blazers--it will generally be lumped in with cars such as BMW 507, and 300SL. I'm here to tell you that no Pagoda will EVER "win" in a class for which there is a 300SL. If the 300SL is in bad shape, it's patina and original. If restored, well it's just a car that is rare and going to win every time.
But if you cherish the originality and authenticity that is highly defined in our standards here, and codified in the MBCA judging rules, going to a Concours can be a learning experience in many ways.
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Listen: there are Concourse, and there are Concourse.
The "straw hats and blue blazers" type of shows don't pretend to know any vast knowledge about any pedantic details of any specific model or marque...though you may find the occasional judge who does indeed have very specific knowledge about some specific car. However in most of the notable Concourse (you know the usual cast of characters) they are using what are known as "French Rules" for judging. Nobody will ding you for a few less PSI in your tires, but if those tires don't look drop dead spotless, that will be taken into account. Elegance, cleanliness, provenance and even who owns the car all come into play. Generally the judges don't know good from bad under carriage or underhood. That's not the point.
We all learn from each other and a quick way to do that is a Concourse where your car is judged. The problem is many of us can't stand it when flaws are pointed out; others embrace the criticism as a way to get better, and that's what I did. I've been blessed early on with my car, in that it has been judged at a number of MBCA Concourse by people (all highly respected experts) such as Joe Alexander, Peter Lesler, and Jon Bernardi--and many times I came away with a list of things to do. I have won many first place and Best of Show awards with my car...the first one when Dan Caron took my car (in his place for service) on a road trip to an MBC of Canada Concourse. I didn't even know that until I saw a picture of it in an MBCA publication!!
Despite my car's long history of wins and all the trophys it has earned, in a general show--the straw hats and blue blazers--it will generally be lumped in with cars such as BMW 507, and 300SL. I'm here to tell you that no Pagoda will EVER "win" in a class for which there is a 300SL. If the 300SL is in bad shape, it's patina and original. If restored, well it's just a car that is rare and going to win every time.
But if you cherish the originality and authenticity that is highly defined in our standards here, and codified in the MBCA judging rules, going to a Concourse can be a learning experience in many ways.
Yeah, I'm sneaky like that. :) I'm sure I told you won something at the time but I can only vaguely remember the event.