Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: lreppond on August 03, 2019, 00:21:00
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My father recently gave me his 1971 280SL. It’s a 4speed manual in 576G(red) paint with parchment interior. It’s low mileage (60,000). I’d like to do a complete restoration. Unfortunately I know of no one in the SF Bay Area who can do this type of work. Does anyone have an suggestions. I’m planning on attending PagodaFest in October to hopefully meet other owners and enthusiasts.
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Contact Roy Spencer in Burlingame at https://mercedesheritage.com/contact
he does restorations.
But keep in mind if you start a complete restoration now you'll have to drive another car to Pagodafest. You wont drive this one for 2 years. :o
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I hope you also checked the information on this forum about the cost of a complete restoration. You need deep pockets and it is usually more expensive than you budgeted. >:(
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I had a considerable amount of work done on my 230 SL in the Walnut Creek area with a variety of sources. I have a good mechanic who has a lot of experience with 113s mechanicals.
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10 or 12 years ago "bpossel" did a nut and bolt restoration of his SL. search his name and read his posts for great detail on the restoration and important background reading for anyone starting the process. . as i recall he did most of the work himself. upon completion i think he sold the car for north of $100k. here is an idea of what you will find in this repost.
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=23914.msg171233#msg171233
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It depends on how you define a "complete restoration". If you are talking about a concours level W113 restoration I would agree with the others that you are into $100K
and higher depending on the starting point. Jurgen Klockemann, San Jose, 408-985-8722, has done many high end, concours restorations of W113s, 300SL gullwings/roadsters and numerous other Mercedes. I can speak to the quality of his work. He restored my 1958 220S cabriolet a few years ago which one first in class
at the Palo Alto Concours.
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I’d like to thank those members who responded to my request. I’ve always loved my dad’s car but unfortunately he never cared for it and although it was maintained mechanically the interior and paint are probably beyond preservation. Both Burlingame and San Jose are close enough to consider.
I realize this is a costly endeavor.. so with limits, I’m prepared. My dilemma is I really don’t want a car I’m not afraid to enjoy/drive. And this is an area where I’d appreciate the advice of others.
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The more you drive a Pagoda the more reliable it becomes.
If the car was mechanically maintained well then drive it first as is, that is, after a qualified mechanic went through the brake system, checked age of tires, radiator, and lighting, etc. Don't worry about the paint and the interior at this point, but make sure the seats are not broken and are comfortable.
After you have gotten used to its idiosyncracies drive it to Pagodafest and talk to fellow owners and then decide what to do next and how.
My $0.02 ...
In any case enjoy the car and welcome to the group.
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66andblue.... you are spot on! The car is currently in Sonoma and I plan on having it trucked down to the Bay Area (where I live) to a local workshop to perform those very tasks. The driver’s seat is broken down even though the upholstery is in decent, albeit dirty, shape. That’s my #1 priority after changing out fluids, replacing low mileage but old Michelin tires, brakes, etc.
Honestly I’m very excited not only about the car but meeting other enthusiasts with much experience under their belts.
Thanks again for your two cents!
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what's your budget?
Does it need EVERYTHING? Mechanical and body/paint/interior?
Nice gift, but unless it has real sentimental value, you're better off getting one done and unloading this one.
Helps if YOU are also mechanically-inclined and likes to work on cars. Saves a lot of money.
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Get it running, drive it and decide if you are in Love before you toss 100K at it. Don't pay for the divorce before you go to the wedding. Any expense in getting it running and driving properly will not be lost in the restoration.
If it were me I would skip local shops and send it to Brian Peters at Motoring investments in San Diego or Hatch and Sons out East. Very few shops have the in depth knowledge of our cars and I have seen so many cars that are wildly off the mark in terms of correctness that the owner's return on investment was destroyed. It doesn't take that much more to have a known restorer do the work and in the long run you will have a much more valuable car.
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Some 20+ years ago, I inherited my SL from my grandfather. I quite literally grew up in the passenger seat of the car, and when he passed, the family turned it over to me. The car had been sitting idle for 10 years at that time.
Upon hearing this, my mechanic (Steve Marx in Costa Mesa, CA) gave me sound advice: you don't want to restore this car. This is an heirloom, not a show car. You want a show car? Buy one that somebody else already restored, who won their trophies, and is ready to move on to a new project.
Since then, other than mechanicals, I have rebuilt the seats, had the interior wood restored, replaced the heater levers (pure torture), wet-sanded and polished the paint, and addressed a variety of other little cosmetic items. But I am not afraid to drive it. Were I $100k+ into a full restoration, I would be paranoid to drive it. But that's just me. :)
My dilemma is I really don’t want a car I’m afraid to enjoy/drive. And this is an area where I’d appreciate the advice of others.
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To your question of drivability: this car feels and drives like a relatively modern car. It has enough zip, brakes are good, power steering. The manual transmission also helps. A decent repaint doesn't have to cost a ton (less than $2,000 here in France) and I got very good quality new seat covers and carpeting in California for less than $1,000. That will go a long way to restore the cosmetics. So long as there is no rust and the engine and other mechanicals are in good shape, you can enjoy this car for the next 20 years without breaking the bank.
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I was in the L.A. Area earlier this month and was able to swing down to the Mercedes-Benz Classic Center in Irvine and they had 2 W113s for sale in their showroom:
(https://i.imgur.com/1L2MT0g.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/akiCI24.jpg)
All I can say is yikes!!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_Classic_Center
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Hi. the complete restoration cost of w113 280SL will be maximum 80K plus missing spare parts. The transport from your place will be about 2K. The restoration workshop with 15 years experience located in Europe and specialized on Mercedes W111, W112 and W113. Home page and price list https://www.rmw.lv/page/en/Services
The restoration take one year.
They offer free shipping till the first of September.
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Bit ridiculous prices if you ask me that some vendors dare ask such as Classic Center. But I guess it's all down to market forces.
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Yes, and these two cars have been at the Classic Center for several years now...
Bit ridiculous prices if you ask me that some vendors dare ask such as Classic Center. But I guess it's all down to market forces.
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The 1971 is down in price to only $225,000!!
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If the classic car center can get $225k, more power to them. I’ve been told by a fellow watch collector that during the 1950s, Rolex was buying up used ones left and right to raise the cost and desirability of their brand. It worked! The Hunt brothers did basically the same with silver in the early 70s. They drove up prices precipitously. Locally, there is an Oriental rug dealer who attempted the same thing in the late 80s and made a killing by buying old rugs he purchased in Europe and merchandising them in such a way that he got at least three times more for them compared to dealers who had better quality!
I wonder if that’s the same strategy of MB? They certainly promote the desirability of their older cars as a way of selling their current models. As time marches forward, the number of 113s will decrease. Whether or not their value will increase will all depend on the market.
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If the classic car center can get $225k, more power to them. I’ve been told by a fellow watch collector that during the 1950s, Rolex was buying up used ones left and right to raise the cost and desirability of their brand. It worked! The Hunt brothers did basically the same with silver in the early 70s. They drove up prices precipitously. Locally, there is an Oriental rug dealer who attempted the same thing in the late 80s and made a killing by buying old rugs he purchased in Europe and merchandising them in such a way that he got at least three times more for them compared to dealers who had better quality!
I wonder if that’s the same strategy of MB? They certainly promote the desirability of their older cars as a way of selling their current models. As time marches forward, the number of 113s will decrease. Whether or not their value will increase will all depend on the market.
Yes, and it will also depend on MB and their price increases on parts.
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Currently doing a complete restoration on a 1970. You will never get out the door of a reputable shop under $100,000 USD today. The Classic center says 3,000 hours. Having done all my own work except the body I would say that’s about right. Buy 2 new Bosch headlight doors(AJ) and you are down $5500. That is 5 percent and you have restored the first inch of the body. The last couple of years have been a constant barrage of ridiculous prices. Luckily I bought most of the parts 12 years ago when the aforementioned headlight doors were $150 and fenders were a ridiculous $500.
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You are indeed correct! A complete restoration is expensive not just for the labor but the parts. I’m assuming that these parts are being produced in small enough quantities that the pricing has to be high. Two things I’d like to replace on my car are one head light door (AN headlight) and an OEM locking gas cap. Both are so astronomically expensive that it’s rather comical.
After joining this group a little over a month ago, I decided on a full membership. Now that’s DEFINITELY A GOOD BUY! The group has so many quality members who are willing to share their knowledge and expertise with others and help in any way they can. It’s really impressive! And with the archived forums, literally every question I’ve had thus far has been asked and answered by others.
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Lreppond,
Are you sure it is an AN? I think the 1971 USA spec cars came with AJ headlight doors(turn signals). I have never seen an AN. There should be a big raised AN, AC or AJ on the lower lens. If it is indeed an AJ I have a source for a perfect one for less than half price.
The parts prices as Dan (BenzDr) predicted seem to have been influenced by Mercedes. You are lucky if the part has quadrupled in the last 10 years. Some of them have gone up 10 fold.
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The light style changes are listed in the technical manual (and in the list of changes written up in Pagoda Notes and Pagoda World).
https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Electrical/USLamp
The change to the AN style began with 280 SL VIN ending 5608, the switch to the AJ style began at 280 SL VIN ending 11948
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I lean something new every day. Never knew there was an AN. Thanks Jon.
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Are the AJ lights interchangeable from left to right and right to left?
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Yes, the US lights are interchangeable.
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Ireppond, did you happen to see Jonny B’s post showing someone selling an “AN” headlight door on Ebay? https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=29623.0
Looks like its still available. Definitely ask the seller for more detailed photos. Especially of the upper plastic ring.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercedes-280-SL-Headlight-Door-US-Style-Also-for-230-250-SL/283596106341?hash=item4207a52a65:g:uRcAAOSwJ9RdITcH
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...Two things I’d like to replace on my car are one head light door (AN headlight) and an OEM locking gas cap. Both are so astronomically expensive that it’s rather comical...
Funny thing about parts prices. They are not going down. Oh, some mechanical parts that are routine maintenance items such as brake pads, etc. are reasonable and there are plenty of aftermarket versions available, but the proprietary parts are high and getting higher. So the bottom line is, if you want or need some proprietary part, don't stand around griping about the astronomical price, because while you do that it's going up.
I offer my own story of the [in]famous grill star and barrel. At the time I needed one in my restoration they were priced [new] somewhere near $250 or so, and I thought that to be high. So, my restorer found a used one somewhere for $75. The used one was good; not perfect, but it polished nicely. There was one bit of flaked off chrome on it noticable only to me. Meanwhile the prices of new ones kept going up and up and up. But, with the rest of my car having all freshly chromed or new trim, this star bothered me to no end. Lo and behold some member here lost to memory sent me a PM and offered me a NIB/NOS grill star and barrel for $300. I thought that was good, since the new ones from MB had now gone to over $350. So I bought it. In the time it took to get it, and install it a year later (yeah I don't move fast on some of this stuff) prices had risen again. I made the swap and received about what I paid for the new one, for the used on eBay! Meanwhile, back here a few years later the prices had risen to over $500 and those who needed this part were holding off on buying one, complaining about the price (as if magically it would go down).
Well the last time I broached the subject, Tom Hanson of the Classic Center told me that the last new one they sold was over $2,000 before they went NLA. I would like to think they will be made available again because they are fragile and they are proprietary, but I can assure you they won't be cheap! When I commenced my restoration in 1999, the Pagoda was just transitioning from an old car to a worthy collectible, so many parts were still reasonable. Nonetheless, it still took over 1,000 hours, not including sublet work such as brake restoration, plating, etc. There were tens of thousands of dollars of parts, at 1999-2001 prices. Labor was $45/hour. As they say, do the math...
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Len,
I am looking forward to seeing how far you will go with your car. The advice I would ad it to take lots of pictures and throw nothing away. The smallest things like original hose clamps or original Beru spark plug wires can be very hard to find if not impossible. Even if you decide you don’t want to restore it now you may change your mind someday.
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lreppond, there may be a middle ground. Get it mechanically sound then drive it for a season with the lousy interior and paint. Then mercilessly nit pick it mechanically and fix anything and everything you or a mechanic can find that needs fixed. Fix the seat so it is safe to drive. If you still find that driving and owning the car is a pleasure to you, then consider upgrading the interior and paint. This would be the time for a proper repair of any rust anywhere. Then get a good quality paint job in the original color with as little masking off as possible, i.e remove handles, headlights, maybe windshield, etc. Replace rotten weatherstrip everywhere too. Then go to the interior, seats, carpet, etc. Manually clean up the engine bay, but do not pull the motor to paint there.
You can end up with a driver++ car that is reliable and good looking, but not show quality. If after a few years if you want to take it to the next level, then you can. But my guess is that you will enjoy it more as a car you can drive. Yes, you will still worry about it sitting in a parking space, but you will not suffer in agony should a rock chip or garage scratch appear.
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When I bought my Pagoda in autumn 2008 the grille star was broken. I was a quite shocked when I heard the price which was 785 eur! I wasted a few months by thinking what to do. That was a mistake. Year 2009 came and the new price was 840 eur! I bought the star (and barrel) despite it did hurt. Today the price is 2711 eur on MB Classic center...
BR,
Matti
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...was a quite shocked when I heard the price which was 785 eur...wasted a few months...That was a mistake...new price was 840 eur! I bought the star (and barrel) despite it did hurt. Today the price is 2711 eur on MB Classic center...
Q.E.D. "Quod Erat Demonstrandum"
Yep, shoulda done it at the first price quote!
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Hey Bill. Good to see you on here.
I can't be in Charleston for the October event, as I will be out in San Diego with the rest of the Pagoda Gang. Might try to Have somebody from our local MBCA which covers Charleston Show.
Best,
Mike Mizesko