Pagoda SL Group

Off Topic => Way Off Topic => Topic started by: Rolf-Dieter on March 25, 2019, 03:15:31

Title: Need some help to make a decision
Post by: Rolf-Dieter on March 25, 2019, 03:15:31
Should I or should I not ship my Pagoda to Europe .... why would you ?.... you might ask.

Well last year was sort of a change in my life, not only did I turn 81 (surpassing my dad’s life span), I attended a great get together in Europe the Euro 2018 Event in France. I even managed to make it across to Bordeaux with Friends to visit the Paul Bracq Ateliers. On my return to Canada I had to face some health issues that I am now attending to. It makes one think and it also initiates changes in ones life style. Right now I use my Pagoda on short runs as often as i can. However, our Canadian Winters are long and i do need to take breaks here and then due to other responsibilities I still have. In the 5 years of Pagoda ownership I’ve driven the car over 15,000 miles, what can I say the car is a reliable driver and I love to drive.

Now here is the thing, I traveled North American highways on business and privately since the early 70s, in fact on my daughters wedding I traveled all the way from Alberta Canada to Halifax Nova Scotia in my then 1987 AMG my business partner called it “The Pimp Mobile” After the wedding I took the Ferry to Bar Harbour then made my way all the way across the USA to California, then up north along the Costal highway 1 and 101 to Vancouver Canada then back to Edmonton, Alberta (where we lived for 27 years). I made many more extended road trips, privately and on business. What I am trying to say I had the opportunity to see much of North America (Canada and the USA). I think it is time to make a change and take in some of the wonderful road trips that await one in Europe.

Now since I joined this fine Group here I made a few Friends and I seek your input as to what I should do, also what hurdles I need to overcome to accomplish this task I seek information from others that may have shipped there car to Europe from Canada or the US or some of you that live in Europe and found your car in the US then made arrangements to ship her to Europe.

I plan to put this into action this fall. Once the car is in Europe I plan to take at least 4 to 5 different weekly vacation trips a year to Europe and take the car on memorable road trips (unfortunately I will be taking those trips solo since my wife does not like to travel anymore).

To make it a reality I need some help with the following;-

1) Who knows of a reliable carrier (California or East Coast USA) to handle the shipment?
2) Must the trunk be totally empty or can I have some spares in it?
3) What would be the best Country to ship to (I am open for the UK, Holland, Germany or France).
4) What is involved to get the car certified for driving her in Europe.
5) What is involved to get her plates registered (I can use my Brothers address in Germany).
6)For Insurance can I use Hagerty insurance or do I need to engage a Euro Insurer.

Naturally I like to ship her to some shop that can look into mechanical issues before items 4 and 5 above can be accomplished.

It goes without saying, once I loose my Canadian Drivers Licence (lets be realistic we all will eventually), the plan is to sell my Pagoda in Europe. Unless I am made an offer I cannot refuse, then it would be earlier. I can always rent a Pagoda for a week or so :) I know Peter M. In Italy has several for rent.

This is all I can think of right now and I am looking forward to hear from anyone having undertaken such a project. Thank you in advance to anyone that can share there experience with me in this regard.

Thanks for reading,

Title: Re: Need some help to make a decision
Post by: wjsvb on March 25, 2019, 03:37:10
Dieter:  Others will have good advice on registration etc; I can contribute some experience shipping.  If you use a 20 foot container, the car will be safer from pilferage and you can take whatever spares you may need.  Over the years we've shipped plenty of cars to the Netherlands without problems, though use of an experienced broker is necessary.  Best of luck: the plan sounds like a rewarding and interesting one!  Jon
Title: Re: Need some help to make a decision
Post by: Cees Klumper on March 25, 2019, 04:13:59
I imported the Earl Camino from the US to Switzerland and used a shipper/broker for that, delivered to Holland. Importing to Europe is not a problem, but registering and insuring - you need to probably have a legal residence in Europe. European insurers may not want to insure someone who is not a resident, plus who does not have a European driver's license. Your Hagerty will likely not want to insure a car registered in Europe and driving in Europe.

Anyway that is the practicalities I ran into as I moved countries and vehicles. For a short temporary stint there are solutions, but bringing a car permanently to Europe, registering and insuring it without having a legal (do you have a legal right to become a resident in a European country?) residence there may prove difficult. Using a friend's address probably does not qualify and may be a violation in itself.

However, if you establish legal residence it all should be do-able, so long as you can get a local driver's license (without having to give up yout Canadian one, otherwise you get in trouble back home).
Title: Re: Need some help to make a decision
Post by: Garry on March 25, 2019, 10:43:49

I looked at shipping my car to Europe after using it in USA and found I was allowed to use it in europe with a current rego from Australia and an international drivers licence that I gould get for 12 months only, but here is the catch, you must not stay longer than  12 months and must remove the car before the time is up or you will have it impounded until you pay the full import taxes and duties.  As far as Insurance goes that is a tricky one and you will need to use your brothers address in Germany and take out a local insurance to cover it like I am doing with Haggerty in the USA for mine using a friends US address.

You cannot sell it or if you do you will need to firstly pay all the import taxes first before seeking to sell.

Tom Sergent has shipped his car over to europe several times and is probably a good one to ask the question.

Title: Re: Need some help to make a decision
Post by: Rolf-Dieter on March 25, 2019, 11:04:54
Thanks Jon, Ceres and Garry for your feedback on that. Much apprichisted.

Thinking about that I need to investigate if

a) the law differs in the different countries i’ve mentioned


b) what if I gift the car to my Brother (he is 7 years jounger then I). Perhaps gift tax is lower then import taxes?

I would still be able to use the car anywhere in Europe if he lends her to me. Have to dig into that with the different embassies in Europe. Unfortunatley my disughter Kim has no use or place for the car. She has a 120 year old house, no garage, lives on a small street with very strict parking rules. Parking a Pagoda on the street is not an option.

Looks like it turns into a project Garry :)

Title: Re: Need some help to make a decision
Post by: Pawel66 on March 25, 2019, 11:36:58
Rolf Dieter,

I am not sure if I can be of much help here, but certainly wish all your plans will work and it will all come true!

You might want to check if you need the car fit to regulations in Europe, e.g. lights.

Title: Re: Need some help to make a decision
Post by: Jordan on March 25, 2019, 12:42:44
Rolf, that is quite an undertaking you are planning.  I am assuming you and your wife will continue to live in Canada?  While our winters can be long there is really only about 4 months that you wouldn't really want to drive your Pagoda here (Southern Ontario).  Wouldn't shipping your Pagoda to Europe not further limit your ability to drive your car?  Sure you may have an extra month or two to drive depending on where you ship your car, but you limit yourself to driving your Pagoda to those 4 or 5 holidays you take.  You also wouldn't be able to drive your car to any North American events like PUB or the San Diego event.  Why not just keep your car here and rent a Pagoda in Europe for your weekly holidays? 

It sounds like you have already made your decision and I'm sure you have thought of this but I just wanted to throw it back out there.  I don't know if it would be easier if they (port authorities in whatever country you use) thought you were moving to Europe and are just bringing your car with you.  Taxes will be paid but then you can sell it in Europe as has been mentioned.  Assuming you have an EU passport which should also make it easier.
Title: Re: Need some help to make a decision
Post by: mBdrvr on March 25, 2019, 20:49:50
I've shipped cars to Europe and Australia. There is nothing better than to travel European roads with your own classic car. You'll get many more "thumbs ups" there than you do on this side.

There are two company's that I'd recommend: Cosdel and Schumacher Cargo Logistics

Cosdel is recommended by many but Schumacher offers more delivery and shipping options. Both will guide you with regard to insurance on the ocean and in Europe. Hagerty Insurance and probably other companies will cover any damage while on the water and will provide full coverage while driving in Europe too. Call your insurance carrier for competitive quotes. There are other companies but these are two I've used.

There are a two different methods of transport each at a different price point.

"RO-RO" shipping uses a roll on roll off vessel. This is the way many if not all manufacturers ship their cars. The car is driven to a freight forwarder at the port and then driven on the ship and strapped down. Its then driven off at the port to the local freight receiving facility where you pick it up. I shipped my car back from Europe once this way with no problem. This is probably the least costly. Don't be surprised if your car is dirty when you get it.

Container shipping is more secure and will protect the car better. The car is strapped down to the bottom of a container most likely with another car in a 20 foot container. The container is lifted onto a truck and then lifted onto the deck of a ship, lifted off and trucked to the receiving point.

Your choice of ports may be important. I've shipped to Rotterdam and Bremerhaven with no issues. Southern European ports many be more difficult and dodgy.

If you intend to leave the car in Europe you will have to pay import duties which vary from country to country, have it insured there an

d transfer the title.

I found that shipping my car versus renting a car for a few weeks in Europe will cost more but the extra fun of your own car is worth it.
Title: Re: Need some help to make a decision
Post by: NotRed on March 26, 2019, 04:09:33
Insurance is the tricky issue. You'll need to find an overseas agent . I used Norwich Union. I shipped my Abarth with me from Montreal to Tilbury London - but that cruise ship no longer runs from Canada. A friend of mine took his pre-war Alfa over to Italy for the Villa D'este Concours - I could ask him. Unfortunately, his Pebble Beach winning car came loose in the container and sustained continuous for/aft bashing for 10 days! Car theft will be a problem as well if you are touring as I was. Good luck C
Title: Re: Need some help to make a decision
Post by: stickandrudderman on March 26, 2019, 18:21:27
I would imagine the only practical way to make this work is to condense all of your trips to within one year, then sell the car in Europe to a buyer who is happy to pay the import duties. Being LHD will obviously increase the appeal to most Europeans.
Title: Re: Need some help to make a decision
Post by: Rolf-Dieter on March 26, 2019, 21:38:57
Pawel, Marcus, Paul, Red and Colin,

Thanks all for your feedback and experience on this issue. It will certainly give me something to think about before I make a decision.

Perhaps just shipping the car for a 12 month period to Europe then planning 4 to 5 trips to Europe (one week each) might be what I will do, then returning the car to Canada or as Colin suggests sell her in Europe. Colin, you drove my car last year when you dropped by, I think she should get a good price to cover the import tax as well should I decide to sell the car.

Also, I need to further investigate bringing her to Holland, i read that cars older then 30 years are only charged 9 % VAT.

Then there is my Daughter, she holds both German and Canadian Passports, I have to check into the possibilities here.

Anyway thanks everyone for your help including a few of my friends that provided help by PM.

For now I will close this thread whilst I think about what to do.

Thank you,

Title: Re: Need some help to make a decision
Post by: Peter van Es on March 27, 2019, 10:53:33
You could gift the car to me... I'll keep it for you. In fact, if I like yours better than mine, I may swap them without you noticing  ;)

Alternatively, sell the car to a European with a "right to use clause". That person could be your brother.

Title: Re: Need some help to make a decision
Post by: Rolf-Dieter on March 27, 2019, 11:26:09
Very funny Peter :) the only person that would be gifted this car would be my daughter. Unless of course you make me an offer I cannot refuse. :) when Colin visited us last year, he drove my car to and from the restaurant where we had lunch. I asked him what the car would sell in the UK he said 80 to 85K £, you being such a nice fellow I would properly give you a 10 to 15% discount. :)

However you gave me another idea about the “right to use clause”

Title: Re: Need some help to make a decision
Post by: Peter van Es on March 27, 2019, 11:29:57
The only person that would be gifted this car would be my daughter.

She can always just rent a garage space to store the car in the town she lives in. In the Netherlands garageboxes come up for rental frequently. Cees used to store his Pagoda in a garagebox when he was living in the center of Amsterdam. So whatever you do, if you lose your licence, keep the car in the family!
Title: Re: Need some help to make a decision
Post by: Rolf-Dieter on March 27, 2019, 11:56:33
Thanks for that tip Peter ! You always seam to come up with the right solution.

So far, shipping the car to Europe for a year, hiding her in a garage box in between 4 to 5 well planned Euro road trips then returning her to Canada looks like the way to go and keep her in the family.

BTW, i was about to add to my earlier post .....

The money from the sale would strictly be used to rent Pagoda’s wherever I travel, enjoy good food and wine (too late for downhill skiing). I am a great believer in what one of our great German singers believed “Hans Albers” and one of his songs ”Im Himmel gibt's kein Bier, Drum trinken wir es hier“ (In heaven there is no beer. That's why we drink it here)

Then you beat me to it with your reply :)

Have a great Wednesday!