Pagoda SL Group

W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: Cole on January 12, 2019, 08:05:19

Title: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Cole on January 12, 2019, 08:05:19
Hello All,

The following is an exchange that I had with Michael Kuemmerle at MB over in Germany regarding their recent, new policy of charging $150 for data cards. If you disagree with this policy, I encourage you to write to him about it as soon as possible. The more of us to speak up on this matter, the better.

===========

From: michael.kuemmerle@daimler.com <michael.kuemmerle@daimler.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2019 5:30 AM
To: ...
Subject: Datenkarten
 
Dear ...

The charge we put on the data cards was well considered. We are currently administering 10 million data cards from the end forties to the eighties. To cover some of the cost e.g. manpower, and IT systems, development and maintenance, we came up with this small fee. You also need to consider that this data needs to be handled very careful. Behind each VIN number you find detailed information which is very sensible, for example the key and lock numbers. In a very detailed process we are ensuring, that unauthorized people get access to this Information. This is in the interest of all Mercedes-Benz owners and causes a lot off efforts on our side. So we also contribute to reach the value of Mercedes classic cars.

I hope this gives a little insight and count on your understanding.

Best regards

Michael Kümmerle

---

From: ...
Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2019 10:49 PM
To: michael.kuemmerle@daimler.com
Subject: Re: Datenkarten
 
Hello Michael,

Thanks for your reply.
...

There are a  few related points here that are worth considering:

* There's obviously many, many Mercedes collectors and lovers all around the world who regularly buy various cars,  parts and services from MB and/or its associates. While this is probably not at the top of MB's revenue list, I would expect it is, nonetheless, a substantial income source for MB and alone defrays or could be seen to defray any lesser expenses in maintaining your archive of data cards and satisfying collectors with them.

* While your archive of ten million data cards is certainly a lot of data cards, such a database with today's technology, as we both know, is fairly minimal considering that it's likely a simple database indexed and accessed by VIN; and once the data was loaded, its use has probably been mainly a matter of retrieval for data cards or similar purposes.

* To fulfill a data card request, it is likely just a matter of verifying the validity of the request, retrieving the  data card from the database and emailing a copy to the requester --the main point being that it's not a terribly complicated or expensive proposition.

* The reasons for needing and wanting a data card can vary, but one scenario is to help a buyer confirm the specs of a given car before actually buying it. And it can obviously happen that the data card discloses something that disqualifies the purchase leaving the buyer with a $150 data card and no car. It's clear that the simplest solution is for the data card to be free, the way it's been for years.

* In short, with all the intelligence, resources and affluence that Mercedes Benz possesses, as well as the fact that many or most MB collectors around the world are already paying well for Mercedes cars, parts and services, MB does not need to resort to this $150 charge. To do so is inappropriate and cheapens Mercedes image. It can easily assimilate the minimal database and organizational expenses and if necessary, comfortably defray these costs elsewhere in the company.

The simple and clear solution is return to the earlier policy of offering data cards for free.
...

I probably speak for many other MB collectors in appreciating your consideration and help with this.

Thanks.
...
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Cole on January 17, 2019, 21:54:43
Update:

    I haven't heard back from Michael Kuemmerle at MB regarding my last email to him on Jan 2, 2019 despite two nudges to him since then. It's possible that this policy is under review or he/they have more or less just dismissed my arguments against their arbitrary $150 data card charge.
    But so far, this policy is still in place so more emails from us collectors will help get it cancelled. Again, his email address is michael.kuemmerle@daimler.com.

Thanks.

Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Tom in seattle on January 18, 2019, 04:35:38
Michael: I am a USA owner of a heritage M Benz 250 SL vehicle as well as an owner of new and preowned MB cars for daily use from 1971 until today while I own a 2011 C 300.  While attempting to acquire a data card for my old SL I was informed that I would now need to pay, through a local MB dealer, a $150 fee to get the card.  Not a good plan on your part:  I don’t NEED the card and I’m not going to pay $150.  This is a alienation between MB and me and will not result in my buying a new car from my local dealer.  It will certainly not increase the likelihood that I will want to do business between me and the MB Classic Center .

Tom Averill
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Cees Klumper on January 18, 2019, 13:05:33
MB is learning that if you start charging for something that was free before, even if it is valuable to the customer and costs you to provide it, people will notice. Had they always charged a small fee, say $25 back in the day, and then gradually increase it (but by more than inflation, as they have been doing on all parts for our cars) then the backlash would have been much less.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Benz Dr. on January 18, 2019, 14:40:32
Inflation has never been that high. Price increases of 2 - 4 times higher in one go are not uncommon.

 When you buy 3 or 4 parts for your car every year you won't notice it. When you buy 3 or 4 thousand dollars worth of parts every month, you will notice.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: mrfatboy on January 18, 2019, 15:10:34
😁

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Cole on January 19, 2019, 05:56:53
Good one! Maybe us lovers of frogs, Versailles and French women will consider dumping the SL Glockenspiels in favor of classic Renaults!
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Cole on January 19, 2019, 06:03:11
Well said, Tom. Thanks for speaking up!
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: ejboyd5 on January 19, 2019, 13:35:12
MB is learning that if you start charging for something that was free before, even if it is valuable to the customer and costs you to provide it, people will notice. Had they always charged a small fee, say $25 back in the day, and then gradually increase it (but by more than inflation, as they have been doing on all parts for our cars) then the backlash would have been much less.
Somewhat akin to boiling a frog.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: russelljones48 on January 21, 2019, 14:19:06
I would offer an alternative reason for this charge: to change the thought process of those requesting the "service" from "why not, it's free" to "Do I need it and am I willing to pay $150 for it".  I also suspect that the lack of continued dialog with MB indicates that they aren't willing to discuss it further and have made THEIR decision.  I also suspect that the service costs them far more than $150 per request to provide - I've priced corporate services and this seems a reasonable charge - probably doesn't cover their costs..  Personally I'd like to see the non-sensitive data put into the public domain..  but that's probably also peeing into a strong wind with MB too.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Cole on January 26, 2019, 05:32:16
Russell,

    I definitely do not agree with what you've surmised about the pricing of data cards and you haven't offered concrete info to support your opinion. The fact that after many years of providing data cards for free,  MB has now arbitrarily decided to start charging for data card does not automatically mean that doing so was right or justified. Also your suggestion that people order data cards because "why not, it's free" is a weak argument and does not hold water when it's more than likely because they simply need and want the specs and data on the data card.
    MB creates a package of data for each of its cars that obviously includes a data card containing basic specs for a vehicle. This data card is created regardless of whether anybody will want a copy of it or not. And, again, MB offered it for free for many years as many of us know.
    So the data card is already in their system and basically all that's needed to fill an order for one is to retrieve it from the database and send it to the customer. I'm an experienced  software developer and know that this is a tiny aspect of MB's sophisticated systems, and given today's software development and database technology is comparatively very inexpensive, contrary to what you indicate.

Here is my last email to Michael Kuemmerle (michael.kuemmerle@daimler.com) on Jan 16, 2019:

"Hello Michael,

    I still haven't heard back from you on my email to you below, on Jan 2, in which I made some important points regarding this recent, very unpopular policy of charging $150 for a data card. I'm hoping that you've been in the process of re-evaluating this.
    A lot of people are against this policy, including people who work for MB here in the U.S. Also, many people are speaking up against it online. The only ones that I know of who supports it is you and people who you work with there.
    This policy is causing MB dissent from it collector base and resorting to this charge affects MB's image. When you dine at a Michelin 3 star restaurant, you aren't charged for a copy of their menu.
    We hope that you will cancel this policy right away.

I appreciate your consideration."

We still need more people writing to MB about this and being very clear about it so as to get this policy cancelled. You can write to the person above or perhaps somebody higher up over there that will rectify this. Please update us if you know of such a person and perhaps include a copy of your email here so we can follow what's happening.

Thanks!
Cole


Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: stickandrudderman on January 26, 2019, 14:05:22
Homosapien non urinat in ventum .
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Mike Hughes on January 26, 2019, 16:35:48
Homosapien non urinat in ventum .

"You don't pull on Superman's cape..."
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Cees Klumper on January 26, 2019, 18:48:35
Poor Michael Kuemmerle. He has to respond to things like this.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Cole on January 27, 2019, 08:05:38
Mike,

    We Pagoda-philes hereby accept your compliment of us as super men... and your offer to represent us admirably when you rise to the occasion, toss on your cape, fly over to Stuttgart and set things right with this data card issue!
    And word has it that Uncles Gottlieb and Karl, the Ghosts of Daimler Benz Past and Future, are on our side.
    Good luck, Mike. This message will self-destruct when you complete your mission.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Mike Hughes on January 29, 2019, 19:02:31
Hi Cole -

I was merely quoting first line from the chorus of the Jim Croce song "You don't mess around with Jim" from which I thought Stick might have been quoting in Latin.  Alas, when looking it up later I discovered that the second line goes," You don't spit into the wind..." rather than doing something else into the wind!

Now if you know that song, you also know that someone did mess around with Jim and now you don't mess around with Slim.  So go for it Slim!  ;^)
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Cole on January 31, 2019, 09:28:16
Good on your humor, Mike! I do recall that Jim Croce song, though not all the details.

Regarding the $150 data card saga, I didn't hear back on my last couple of emails to Michael over there which was a little less than cordial. Please let your thoughts be known over there, fellow Pagoda-philes. Every vote counts!
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: zoegrlh on January 31, 2019, 22:55:00
Cole,
It has been my experience in the past that Michael at MB Classic Center,  does not return emails and phone calls. When I was planning the P-50 Pagoda 50th Anniversary celebration in Williamsburg, Va. I tried to contact him regarding The Classic Center’s support of the event. Never heard back from him. I guess we are the little people that is below his stature. Anyway good luck with getting MB to drop the charges. Maybe if I go to sell my SL in the future I should add another $150. To selling price because I have the data card.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Cole on February 01, 2019, 08:56:26
Thanks, Robert!
If anybody knows of somebody higher up than Michael Kuemmerle (michael.kuemmerle@daimler.com) over there, please let us know and we can contact him.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Pawel66 on February 01, 2019, 09:15:33
What I usually do in similar circumstances is to file a complaint under the general Company e-mail address in the "Contact" tab on their main webpage. It seems like some of the senior managers get daily reports on various types of complaints. It often worked ok for me (not with Daimler necessarily, but with other companies).

Everyone have their views on this, but my experience is that the fairly high level of customer service orientation culture that you may know e.g. from the US (I know you can give a lot of examples proving otherwise) is not so common in Europe. I learned it the US way (many years in the Coca-Cola Company) and I know a little bit how it differs compared to some of the European organizations.

Perhaps the said gentleman's profile does not exactly match one you would have for, sort of, front-line employee.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Cees Klumper on February 01, 2019, 19:21:01
In my first face to face encounter in 2002 with the head of the classic center in Stuttgart, where I went to present our group together with another (German) board member who was well-known there, I almost walked out of the meeting after 2 minutes, that's how rude and arrogantly we were treated. It never much improved from there.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: bstreep on February 01, 2019, 19:30:49
This is just representative of the continuing decline of the customer relationship.  I've always felt that those that purchased cars from MB and were promised "Free Lifetime Roadside Assistance" got severely screwed when they changed the policy a few years ago. 

Bill
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Benz Dr. on February 01, 2019, 22:23:30
There is little reason for MB not to accept the 113 crowd into their group of clubs. Given that there really weren't that many produced and how popular these cars have become as of late, you'd think they'd see the notion of a profitable return on a minimal investment. It's not like MB isn't already making a piss pile of money from vintage car parts, many of which are for our cars. ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: John Betsch - "SADIE" on February 02, 2019, 16:43:55
This thread is very interesting!  I believe it all comes down to cost and bother.  Will $150. significantly add to their bottom line- no. The Company is letting us know they don't want to be bothered with this task. Luckily I have my data card and also a 11x17 "ZertifikAt" that was offered for purchase in the early 2000's

AND

The Roadside Assistance issue has always been bothersome to me.  I remember getting the letter (attached for those who haven't seen it) and writing to MBUSA about it, with no response.  Roadside Assistance always gave me confidence knowing "they had my back" in the case of any issue. 

While I can understand them not wanting to address/fix a car not maintained by them  I have NEVER found a dealer interested nor willing to work on a 1965 car.  Their technicians are now more "computer techs" who connect to diagnostic systems and do not have the finesse to understand the workings of an older car like ours.
 
What a Catch22.

JB
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: pch2021 on February 05, 2019, 18:47:57
I have to respond to this one....the $150.00 data card charge is straining the frivolous requests from tying up the phones lines at classic center. if you need it, $150.00 is nothing. If you don't, then even $20 is too much. As far as the email goes, i doubt you'll hear from Michael. MB classic tries to maintain as little contact as they can with the public.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Benz Dr. on February 05, 2019, 19:59:30
I have to respond to this one....the $150.00 data card charge is straining the frivolous requests from tying up the phones lines at classic center. if you need it, $150.00 is nothing. If you don't, then even $20 is too much. As far as the email goes, i doubt you'll hear from Michael. MB classic tries to maintain as little contact as they can with the public.

I've been told that the Classic Centers are the most profitable divisions of MB. Even if they aren't, I'm sure they're doing just fine and certainly don't deserve any special concern from any of us.

As any business will tell you, you're going to get a lot of useless calls in a given week. Get over it or get out.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Shvegel on February 06, 2019, 08:40:43
I think you might be mistaking a cultural difference for rudeness.  I am a large yacht engineer (mechanic) and since most of the finest yachts come from Germany and Holland I do spend a fair bit of time dealing with businesses in those countries.  In a business setting not hearing back is an implied no.  I guess it is seen as a way to not directly embarrass the customer.

Porsche charges $110 for a certificate of authenticity (COA) and it has far less information than our data card.  I look at the data card as nothing more than another part I must consider the price of and buy or not buy.  The price is the price and in this case there is no shopping around.  One does not negotiate with someone who quite literally holds all the cards. 

Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Cole on February 12, 2019, 08:38:48
Pierre,

Needing or wanting and ordering a data card doesn't classify as a "frivolous request".
The simple fact is that MB gave them out for free for many years as it made plenty of $ from us collectors. And now it appears that someone over there became a cheapskate and started charging for it. Are the portraits of Herr Daimler and Herr Benz wincing?
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Jordan on February 12, 2019, 12:16:05
Cole, as much as I agree with your position, you are beating a dead horse.  MB was the last hold out I know of that finally started charging for this service.  It use to be free from Alfa Romeo until about 2 years ago when they started charging for it.  Any other existing or former manufacturer (VW, Posche and Studebaker) that I've contacted charge for the service.  Considering how many VW's are out there, the 50 Euros they charge must add a point or two to their bottom line.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: pch2021 on February 12, 2019, 13:29:25
Cole,
a lot of dealers, sniffers, brokers and flippers call classic center all day long wanting data cards. these are the frivolous requests I was talking about. T.H. has mentioned before that the majority of data card requests are from non-owners.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Cole on February 16, 2019, 02:55:21
Hi Pierre,

Per MB's policy, you can't get a data card unless you can prove you're the owner of the car with a copy of the title and, I believe, a copy of your driver's license. They tightened up on this several years ago, so perhaps you're referring to the period before that when anybody could get one, frivolously otherwise.

As an FYI, below is my last email to Michael Kuemmerle (michael.kuemmerle@daimler.com) on Jan 16, 2019. That he didn't respond was at best inconsiderate and a little rude.

"Hello Michael,

    I still haven't heard back from you on my email to you below, on Jan 2, in which I made some important points regarding this recent, very unpopular policy of charging $150 for a data card. I'm hoping that you've been in the process of re-evaluating this.
    A lot of people are against this policy, including people who work for MB here in the U.S. Also, many people are speaking up against it online. The only ones that I know of who supports it is you and people who you work with there.
    This policy is causing MB dissent from it collector base and resorting to this charge affects MB's image. When you dine at a Michelin 3 star restaurant, you aren't charged for a copy of their menu.
    We hope that you will cancel this policy right away.

I appreciate your consideration."

---

It appears that several of you don't care about this new charge for data cards or are just willing to roll with it even though you may not agree. Ok. But, gentlemen, that ain't how battles are won.

    If you do think that this new policy is inappropriate, cheap, or whatever, does it matter what Porsche or VW are doing? So what? Maybe if MB cancels their policy, the other cheapsters will follow suit. I know what you doubters are saying. "Fat Chance!", right? Come on, guys. There's lots of real life David and Goliath stories out there.
    Just think, you could be one of the few to stand up in a Stuttgart beer hall with your arm around luscious fraulein Schmidt and announce loudly: "I'm a proud member of the Pagoda Data Card Patrol who helped spare Mercedes from being cheap you-know-whats!" ... and then maybe get tossed out of there and wind up sued or in jail. But so what?! You helped save the free data card grail!

:) Cole

Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: BRYANH815 on February 16, 2019, 03:53:00
Gentlemen as one of you nicely stated if you want the data card you will pay the price. This is capitalism. The price is what the traffic can bear. I myself will eventually get around to purchasing the said data card fro my 1970 280SL as part of the underpinnings of the car.
I understand the frustration but MB will do as they will. Mercedes Uber Alles
Bryan Hepper
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Cole on February 17, 2019, 05:42:20
Bryan,

    Your statement "...if you want the data card you will pay the price. This is capitalism. The price is what the traffic can bear." begs a free enterprise response: no, I will not necessarily pay the price at all. And "the price is what the traffic can bear" based on what and according to who?
    Of course we have a capitalist/free enterprise system here in the U.S., which has seen many great business successes as well as colossal failures based on misevaluation of markets or customer bases, e.g., an arbitrary decision/dictate by some executive based on wrong assumptions and false data.
    In a free enterprise system one can freely succeed or freely lose one's derriere by being arrogant and stupid. And that could include Mercedes, esp. with a "Mercedes uber alles" (Mercedes Above/Over All) viewpoint, right?
    Perhaps if you write a good email to Michael at the address above suggesting that they cancel the data card policy, he will offer you your data card at no charge because they decided, with your help, to revert their policy. And Fraulein Schmidt will offer you some special schnaps on your next trip to Stuttgart. What better capitalist reward could you possibly ask?

:) Cole
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: BRYANH815 on February 17, 2019, 22:57:44
Although I agree that Benz is being arrogant. As you said it is their choice and we  PAGODA as a group aren't strategically important to them. Their go to market strategy will ultimately come back and bite them. it is a fact that they set price policy and we decide to purchase or not.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: hauser on February 18, 2019, 01:04:32
Cole,
a lot of dealers, sniffers, brokers and flippers call classic center all day long wanting data cards. these are the frivolous requests I was talking about. T.H. has mentioned before that the majority of data card requests are from non-owners.

I always thought that proof of ownership was one of the requirements!   Am I wrong?
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Mike Hughes on February 18, 2019, 22:05:17
It was a requirement even when I ordered a copy of my data card 14 years ago.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Benz Dr. on February 19, 2019, 04:47:38
Although I agree that Benz is being arrogant. As you said it is their choice and we  PAGODA as a group aren't strategically important to them. Their go to market strategy will ultimately come back and bite them. it is a fact that they set price policy and we decide to purchase or not.

I agree to a point. However, sometimes it's not a case of whether we buy or not but rather that MB has complete control of the market and therefore set the prices as they see fit on parts everyone needs. This has always been the case for a lot of parts but it's only been the last few years where prices have increased so drastically. And, anything that has their logo on it is REALLY expensive - small hub caps are around $500.00 now!
Not all aftermarket parts are as good as original pieces but some are and they're usually priced at a considerable savings even though they're produced in limited runs.   
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Cole on February 19, 2019, 07:57:49
Hi Hauser,

Up until maybe five years ago, no proof of ownership was required for the data card. I would just send in the VIN and receive it. The fact that they tightened up with the proof of ownership rule has a positive side by eliminating some of the frivolous ones.

Cole
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: hauser on February 19, 2019, 15:07:17
That's what I thought!  I f they just gave it to anyone they'd be giving away key codes, right? 

The $150.00 is that for the actual card or is it for a copy?  I'm not sure if I read thru it properly.  The was also an official 'ZERTIFIKAT' that was pricey fancy piece of paper.

In the end it is what it is.  We pay if we want it because there's always someone else who will.  I fear that one day I and others will be pushed out of ownership due to extravagant prices that continue to rise.



 
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Mike Hughes on February 19, 2019, 17:13:30
It is a copy, either of the actual original card in an archived card file or from archival microfiche (more likely).
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Cole on March 17, 2019, 01:18:40
Hello All,

It appears that this $150 data card matter has lost some of its steam, perhaps as some people at MB Germany expected it would. And one of the main reasons for this is that not enough of us bothered to write to them.
FYI, below is the last email that I sent to Michael Kuemmerle on Feb 27, 2019 --which got no response.

This $150 data card policy can be canceled, but it probably won't be unless we in the collector/owner base speak up loudly enough against it. So, again, you're encouraged to write to Michael Kuemmerle about this at the email address above.
Also, if one of you guys is a Facebook champ, which I'm not, by all means post some things on there about it, loud and clear, and get your friends to.
Lastly, if any of you knows of someone else over there, preferably above Michael Kuemmerle, please let us know so we can contact him.

Thanks.
Cole

---

Wed 2/27/2019 9:13 PM
To: michael.kuemmerle@daimler.com

Hello Michael,

    I'm disappointed that you didn't respond to my last emails below and evidently have not  canceled the fairly new policy on charging $150 for data cards.
    As I mentioned, a lot of collectors disagree with this policy which you can verify yourself, and you will find that they want it cancelled.
    Just one negative aspect of this policy is that it tends to tarnish Mercedes-Benz's image; i.e., people are wondering why a very successful company like Mercedes-Benz is resorting to charging $150 for an email copy of a data card; is Mercedes-Benz perhaps having financial issues? This policy cheapens MB's image, it is a PR oversight and as a lot of Mercedes lovers disagree with it, they simply want it canceled.
    The fact that neither you or anybody else there has responded to my last two communications and not canceled this policy can give the impression that you're being arbitrary and arrogant in this policy decision and detached from your collector base.
    Again, we hope that you'll re-assess this policy and cancel it.
    Also, if there is someone else there that you suggest we discuss this with, please let me know.

Thank you.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: ejboyd5 on March 17, 2019, 11:21:37
Cole:  You've wasted much more that $150 of your own time tilting at this windmill.  M-B has an obvious reason to impose a charge and that reason is to discourage requests from the number of people inspired by this site and many others to apply for "free" information that they mistakenly believe is important to their ordinary production vehicles.  Responding to these requests is costly and M-B is simply trying to level the playing field by imposing a charge designed to limit requests to those who have a pressing need for the data and to winnow out those who are requesting information simply because it would be nice to have and it's free. It's time for us to move on.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Cees Klumper on March 17, 2019, 13:08:43
In the 20 years of my ownership I never felt the need to get the data card for my 280 SL, free or not. The $150 is reasonable to me and makes no difference in whether I will or will not obtain one. I always thought it was kind of nice of MB to offer them free but don't fault them at all for having started to charge.

When I was importing my cars and motorcycles from Switzerland into France I needed manufacturers' ccertificates of EU compliance. Honda was the only one who did not charge a fee for that. Volvo, Mercedes, KTM and Piaggio all did, with Volvo being the cheapest at €70 and Piaggio the dearest, at €330. So that's the actual practice.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Cole on March 19, 2019, 07:54:11
Hello ejboyd5,   

    Got it. But we'll take your message as you speaking for yourself, not the rest of us, ok? And a number of us disagree with you.
    Your data and logic is a little flawed regarding your point about all the supposed time being consumed by MB over there re data cards, the need for "leveling the playing field", etc. Please. If supporting their collector base with free data cards was such an unbearable task and expense for them, why did they wait --forty years-- or more to start charging for them? The answer is that it wasn't nearly as big a deal or expense as you're trying to make it sound.
    Furthermore, as a very experienced software and database developer, I can assure you that a database holding even millions of individual cars' data, indexed by VIN, is tiny and simple compared to other parts of MB's systems. And they would obviously be maintaining this database regardless of whether data cards were being provided to the customer base or not.
    Also, you make a pompous, incorrect assertion that those wanting a data card "apply for "free" information that they mistakenly believe is important to their ordinary production vehicles." How do you know they're "mistaken"? You sound as arbitrary and arrogant as those over at MB Germany who came up with this $150 data card policy. Do you by chance work for or with them?

    Please consider what I originally wrote about this to Michael Kuemmerle below.

   To the rest of our group who are interested in this, I'm not going to keep beating the drum on this matter. I appreciate your interest and, again, encourage you to make thout thoughts known to the folks over at MB.

Thanks.
Cole.

Sent to Michael Kuemmerle on Jan 2. 2019:

"There are a  few related points here that are worth considering:

* There's obviously many, many Mercedes collectors and lovers all around the world who regularly buy various cars,  parts and services from MB and/or its associates. While this is probably not at the top of MB's revenue list, I would expect it is, nonetheless, a substantial income source for MB and alone defrays or could be seen to defray any lesser expenses in maintaining your archive of data cards and satisfying collectors with them.

* While your archive of ten million data cards is certainly a lot of data cards, such a database with today's technology, as we both know, is fairly minimal considering that it's likely a simple database indexed and accessed by VIN; and once the data was loaded, its use has probably been mainly a matter of retrieval for data cards or similar purposes.

* To fulfill a data card request, it is likely just a matter of verifying the validity of the request, retrieving the  data card from the database and emailing a copy to the requester --the main point being that it's not a terribly complicated or expensive proposition.

* The reasons for needing and wanting a data card can vary, but one scenario is to help a buyer confirm the specs of a given car before actually buying it. And it can obviously happen that the data card discloses something that disqualifies the purchase leaving the buyer with a $150 data card and no car. It's clear that the simplest solution is for the data card to be free, the way it's been for years.

* In short, with all the intelligence, resources and affluence that Mercedes Benz possesses, as well as the fact that many or most MB collectors around the world are already paying well for Mercedes cars, parts and services, MB does not need to resort to this $150 charge. To do so is inappropriate and cheapens Mercedes image. It can easily assimilate the minimal database and organizational expenses and if necessary, comfortably defray these costs elsewhere in the company.

The simple and clear solution is return to the earlier policy of offering data cards for free."
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: specracer on March 19, 2019, 11:56:32
Its proprietary information, takes human labor, that gets a paycheck, to produce and send it, while I would not mind it being free, im OK with $150. In fact I'll be ordering one today.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: 66andBlue on March 19, 2019, 23:19:50
.....
Got it. But we'll take your message as you speaking for yourself, not the rest of us, ok?
I hope you agree that you also speak only for yourself, and not for me by chance. Correct?
Quote
And a number of us disagree with you.
Who? How many, 1, 2 or 3? How did you count?

High time to read Don Quixote again.  ;D


Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Cole on March 20, 2019, 05:08:23
Hello 66andBlue,

I'm not interested in trying to speak for you in this matter. I'd prefer that you spoke for yourself and got back to the main point, i.e., do you agree with MB Germany in this matter and the way they handled it or not? And if not, what do you suggest?

Thanks.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Jeremy Uglow on January 06, 2022, 13:52:44
Im trying to source a data card in the UK for my US 1963 Sl230, the local dealer are struggling with my VIN as it doesnt have any letter prefixes.

Does anyone have a solution to obtaining a data card in the UK?
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Pawel66 on January 06, 2022, 14:24:36
Jeremy,

I am not sure how exactly it should go in the UK, in my area here is what happened:
1. I went to the dealer with the proof of ownership.
2. The guy in the parts department verified my identity, verified my proof of ownership, scanned the documents and sent them via e-mail to Daimler HQ in Poland (not sure which department, they may have some classic car person there)
3. Daimler processed it and within a week or so I received the pdf via email with data card.

I am not sure why the dealer are saying that they need letters as prefix for VIN. The system is accepting the VIN as is and it is also accepting the first 6 digits of the VIN. If they are stubborn, ask them to put WDB at the beginning, it will work too. But they do not really need it. Maybe they are looking for the datacard from the system - but this works for newer cars (I think as of R107). For W113 the datacard button in the system is not active.

If none of that works and folks at Milton Keyes are not helpful, I would write to Classic Center, Germany.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: stickandrudderman on January 06, 2022, 15:20:48
Contact me and I can get a data card for you.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: jw_clark on March 04, 2023, 22:29:03
My apologies - I have skimmed this article and I am a little confused - what is the current process in the US for requesting a data card ? Do I take documentation to a local dealer or do I need to reach out to a Classic Center (?) Any help would be appreciated. This request relates to a 1966 230 SL 5-speed.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: alpina on March 04, 2023, 22:34:15
email
classicdatacards@mbusa.com
they will be able to help.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Benz Dr. on March 04, 2023, 23:46:48
email
classicdatacards@mbusa.com
they will be able to help -

you out of 150 bucks.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: jw_clark on March 06, 2023, 17:04:08
Thank you for the information.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: mdsalemi on March 06, 2023, 19:40:38
You should realize this is just another situation where somebody wants to put their hands in your pocket.

On my daily drivers, Ford used to supply map updates for our cars. Now they charge quite a bit of money for the map update. What was infuriating is that the map that they originally supplied on our car was woefully out of date at the time of delivery.

One of my clients, an elderly lady, was charged $600 from Subaru for her SD card map update.

I hear BMW is charging a monthly subscription fee for certain options.

The greed is astounding and getting worse I’m afraid.

Thankfully got the awful print from microfiche for my data card when it was free. It certainly wasn’t worth $150.

Also thankful that Apple Maps, Google maps, Waze and other mapping programs feature real time updates, don’t go stale, and are free.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: rwmastel on April 27, 2023, 13:19:56
Thankfully got the awful print from microfiche for my data card when it was free. It certainly wasn’t worth $150.
I am looking at my 23 year old "awful print from microfiche for my data card" this morning and it's unreadable in parts.  I think I'll cough up the $150 for good images before it gets even more expensive.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Lorsar on April 27, 2023, 14:09:11
Rodd, I don't think you'll get anything better from MB classic center.  You might consider contacting Alpina to recreate the card set.

https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=36477.msg266714#msg266714
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Davek1 on April 27, 2023, 19:19:35
I just had Alpina produce a set of cards for my car. Must say he was first class
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: vnaar123 on July 29, 2023, 04:25:45
I requested data card from classic center and this what they emails back odd. does anyone know what this means?

Dear Mr.

Thank you for your inquiry.

 We apologize, but we (Mercedes-Benz Classic Contact Center) are not able to issue a data card for your vehicle. Please therefore contact your local Mercedes-Benz dealership to apply for a data card.

The department for service and parts is able to order the data card for your vehicle in the archives of the Mercedes-Benz Group AG.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Pawel66 on July 29, 2023, 08:40:14
It may mean they changed procedures and delegated issuing of data cards in the US from Classic Center to dealers.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: dirkbalter on July 29, 2023, 19:26:45
I requested data card from classic center and this what they emails back odd. does anyone know what this means?

Dear Mr.

Thank you for your inquiry.

 We apologize, but we (Mercedes-Benz Classic Contact Center) are not able to issue a data card for your vehicle. Please therefore contact your local Mercedes-Benz dealership to apply for a data card.

The department for service and parts is able to order the data card for your vehicle in the archives of the Mercedes-Benz Group AG.

My be what Pawel says is true. I would call them and talk to one of their sales people.
They are usually quite helpful. Have them
confirm that they no longer supply these.
I am happily working with Jon Sigerrson on my part needs for a long time. He will tell you.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Sead on July 31, 2023, 11:29:12
It may mean they changed procedures and delegated issuing of data cards in the US from Classic Center to dealers.

As I work for a local Mercedes dealer I can tell you what happened...
MB has partially "out sourced" issuing and Classic Center is not more responsible for doing this. We (as MB dealers) have a special platform communicating with M@RS DaCar  ( https://mercedes-benz-publicarchive.com/marsClassic/de/instance/ko/Willkommen-bei-Classic-MaRS.xhtml?oid=34685039 (https://mercedes-benz-publicarchive.com/marsClassic/de/instance/ko/Willkommen-bei-Classic-MaRS.xhtml?oid=34685039) ). Procedure is much faster and we as dealers are payin little les than 150,- bucks for getting data card from them.
Regards
Sead
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: stickandrudderman on August 01, 2023, 15:02:28
Interesting error in the text for 113 in Sead's link.
Who can spot it?
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: neelyrc on August 01, 2023, 16:07:18
….7 camshaft bearings….
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: stickandrudderman on August 01, 2023, 17:09:58
It was too easy for this well informed group!
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: rwmastel on August 01, 2023, 17:26:25
Sead's link is to a German language site and not a site for W113's, so I had no hope to find what you were talking about.  What am I missing?
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: neelyrc on August 01, 2023, 19:25:37
Rodd, The site also has an English language option.  Maybe not so obvious at first glance.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: rwmastel on August 01, 2023, 19:57:45
OK, I didn't see it.  Very subtle.  I I see the next step was to dig deep through the menu on the left side.  A bit of a treasure hunt, but fun.  I still don't see a reference to the number of bearings.  Must be in one of those supporting docs?
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: BobH on August 01, 2023, 21:05:15
Rodd, if you can't find it, it might make you a bit cranky!
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Logix66 on November 10, 2023, 23:09:03
Hi all, so we are finally ready and have all our paperwork straightened out and need to get the data cards for our 1968 280SL and i went to the site posted (new one a few post back) cant find any info on the topic. We need keys for the car !! lol fricken locksmiths won't come to car and make a key even ! Can't take out the key mechanism with breaking the darn steering wheel lock.
Please help me find the right spot with the info i need, 2 years now and i want to be able to turn the steering wheel! lol I can fire it up by the hotwire rig. need muffler system from manifold back. and finish up the rear brake lines. hopefully on the road next spring.
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Vander on November 10, 2023, 23:27:42
Hi all, so we are finally ready and have all our paperwork straightened out and need to get the data cards for our 1968 280SL and i went to the site posted (new one a few post back) cant find any info on the topic. We need keys for the car !! lol fricken locksmiths won't come to car and make a key even ! Can't take out the key mechanism with breaking the darn steering wheel lock.
Please help me find the right spot with the info i need, 2 years now and i want to be able to turn the steering wheel! lol I can fire it up by the hotwire rig. need muffler system from manifold back. and finish up the rear brake lines. hopefully on the road next spring.

For data card email classicdatacards@mbusa.com  You will need to provide a copy of the title and your ID as proof of ownership.

For key email classicparts@mbusa.com They should be able to cut a key as long as the ignition is original, will also have to provide proof of ownership as above

For exhaust call Timevalve manufacturing for a complete OEM style stainless system from the manifold back. 321-254-7200
Title: Re: $150 Charge for Data Cards - Update - Your help is needed
Post by: Logix66 on November 10, 2023, 23:40:27
Thank you very much for the extremely fast reply, am on it as we speak. Going to kill a few birds with 1 stone as they say,lol. Won't be til next month on the exhaust. But first time her and i drive it out of the garage first pic goes here ! Without the abundance of information on this site I or we Her and I rather would never have been able to pull it off. Thank you very much !!