Pagoda SL Group

W113 Pagoda SL Group => Wanted To Buy => Topic started by: Harry on December 02, 2018, 13:57:59

Title: Big Blue Book
Post by: Harry on December 02, 2018, 13:57:59
I know these are like hens teeth, but where might a BBB be found for a 230SL?  Where should you look?
Title: Re: Big Blue Book
Post by: mbzse on December 02, 2018, 14:37:23
Quote from: Harry
.../... where might a BBB be found for a 230SL?.../...
How about Mercedes? try this link:
https://www.mercedes-benz-classic-store.com/en/literature-media/technical-literature/?p=1 (https://www.mercedes-benz-classic-store.com/en/literature-media/technical-literature/?p=1)
Title: Re: Big Blue Book
Post by: Pawel66 on December 02, 2018, 14:53:18
I found mine on e-bay. Make sure you get the correct one.

Haynes is also what people use.
Title: Re: Big Blue Book
Post by: Vander on December 02, 2018, 14:55:46
I have extras of the early BBB- Service Manual 1959 I would sell which will cover 230SL, I don't have the late one.
Title: Re: Big Blue Book
Post by: mnahon on December 02, 2018, 15:42:20
search on ebay for 'mercedes maintenance manual 1959'. There are a few.
Title: Re: Big Blue Book
Post by: ja17 on December 02, 2018, 16:06:53
Try to find later editions with all the supplements included.
Title: Re: Big Blue Book
Post by: scoot on December 02, 2018, 16:57:41
I have two listed on ebay right now and I would sell them on sl113 for 2/3 of what I have them listed at.   Both in excellent condition.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/153265535849
https://www.ebay.com/itm/162384025215

Same manual, just the second one is a later publication.
Title: Re: Big Blue Book
Post by: MikeSimon on December 04, 2018, 14:25:05
I have both the 1959- and the later from 1968 version and I am disappointed of how little use they are for the 113. There is hardly anything in there that is usable for our Pagodas. Great waste of money for what you get. Frankly, I use a "Haynes" manual more often.
Title: Re: Big Blue Book
Post by: scoot on December 04, 2018, 16:24:16
I have both the 1959- and the later from 1968 version and I am disappointed of how little use they are for the 113. There is hardly anything in there that is usable for our Pagodas. Great waste of money for what you get. Frankly, I use a "Haynes" manual more often.
There is everything related to the drivetrain and nothing related to the body.  What specifically have you been disappointed to not find in the BBB? 
Title: Re: Big Blue Book
Post by: MikeSimon on December 04, 2018, 17:20:41
M130 engine stuff is almost completely absent. I cannot find anything specific to the late model cylinder heads.
Title: Re: Big Blue Book
Post by: ja17 on December 04, 2018, 18:19:50
Mike, make sure you have the version with all the supplements or you are missing a lot of M130 information. The first edition of the BBB was published prior to 1968 so all changes and variations in the M130 were not included. Dealers BBB's were "loose leaf binders". The factory sent out supplements every few months of production as variations, and changes occurred. So if you have an early "hard bound" edition you may not have all the supplements. At some point after production ended, the factory printed hard bound versions with all the supplements included. In the prefix of the complete BBB it will state that it is the "final and complete edition and that no more changes or supplements will be issued". These complete versions usually have a printing date of 1972 or later. As I said in the past, the BBB's are like a soap opera, relevant information is often covered in previous model BBB's then not covered later. In addition they contain a huge conglomeration of material from many different models all mixed together.  Having both complete BBB's and some factory "Technical Data" booklets is a nice combination for reference. I also have a selection of Haynes, Chilton and more for quick reference. Sometimes its just easier to find information in some of these model specific publications. I love my early "Glenn's" manual it has many great easy-to-use charts for tuning, torques etc.

These BBBs are not the perfect reference for sure. The most valuable place to find information on your Pagoda is right here!
Title: Re: Big Blue Book
Post by: dirkbalter on December 04, 2018, 19:07:01
These BBBs are not the perfect reference for sure. The most valuable place to find information on your Pagoda is right here!
[/quote]

I couldn’t agree more.
Title: Re: Big Blue Book
Post by: MikeSimon on December 04, 2018, 20:39:59
I must agree with that also. I have gotten more and better instructions here than from thumbing through the BBBs uncounted times.
I have both a German and a still brand new English version of the 68-up books. They both end with section 83, a May 1971 supplement for the a/c service.
Nothing in there about M130 cylinder heads. I had raised that question in another post before and someone said I needed the 1959-up BBB to find Inline 6 motor info. So I got one. Nothing in there either, at least nothing useful I can use for a M130 head. Which probably makes sense. But where is anything?
Title: Re: Big Blue Book
Post by: mbzse on December 04, 2018, 21:04:30
Quote from: ja17
.../...These BBBs are not the perfect reference for sure.../...
One must be aware, these binders (BBB) were aimed at professional Mercedes mechanics at certified Dealerships. Thus, Mercedes writers foresaw and expected each workshop to have the whole series (set) of binders. Because of this, repetitions of what was previously published was avoided.
Also the level of description took for granted that the reader/mechanic was well versed in all basic workshop procedures, these are not explained in the BBB!
In fact, Mercedes specifically kept this technical documentation restricted, true also for parts lists etc. It changed in the 90s, which has meant that we nowadays as laymen are free to aquire M-B tech doc.

https://www.mercedes-benz-classic-store.com/en/literature-media/technical-literature/?p=1 (https://www.mercedes-benz-classic-store.com/en/literature-media/technical-literature/?p=1)
Title: Re: Big Blue Boo
Post by: Rolf-Dieter on December 04, 2018, 22:01:28
Mercedes like some other high end manufactures made changes once production was lunched. To keep dealerships up to date they issued those update supplements and made sure that dealerships had them.

I’m sure that any BBB was not kept up to date as they left dealerships for whatever reason. I have a BBB that I purchased at PUB in 2013, now that i no longer gave a garage i’m Thinking of selling it anyone interested PM me I would sell it for the same price I paid $100- US. The main page after the blue cover photo and some detail pages are attached. When I purchased the book my plan was to use it often, what cai say no more garage and everything changed for me in 2014. I’m sure it will be of value to someone that is reassembling his Pagoda :) if there is no interest here I will bring it to PagodaFest next year.

When I worked for GE we had a similar procedure for the Frame 5 and 7 gas turbines (25 to 50 MW). Technical Information Letters were issued with revised indexes for our Customers Operating and Maintenance Manuals. Those TIL’s were religesly forwarded to any Customer that had a Gas Turbine in there plant.

Dieter

UPDATE, SORRY THE PARTS LIST IS NO LONGER AVAILABLE AND HAS BEEN SPOKEN FOR
Title: Re: Big Blue Book
Post by: mbzse on December 04, 2018, 22:23:59
Quote from: Rolf-Dieter
.../... I have a BBB that I purchased at PUB.../...
Please note Dieter, what you have there is a full Parts List 10202 edition C. Very fine and most useful for late 250SL and 280SL owners :)

However, it is not the workshop manual (BBB) discussed in this thread
Title: Re: Big Blue Book
Post by: dirkbalter on December 04, 2018, 22:29:24
Dieter, that looks like a spare parts list. Not the BBB.
Title: Re: Big Blue Book
Post by: Rolf-Dieter on December 04, 2018, 22:38:25
Yes I know Hans and Dirk,

Still someone putting his car back together and needing new parts it would be most helpfull. My bad about referring to it as the BBB I thought the name was due to the Blue Cover. Goes to show you live and learn :)

Dieter

UPDATE, SORRY THE PARTS LIST IS NO LONGER AVAILABLE AND HAS BEEN SPOKEN FOR
Title: Re: Big Blue Book
Post by: ja17 on December 05, 2018, 04:12:20
Mike some M130 cylinder head info in the BBBs:    BBB Late p. 00-0/16 misc. (head torque info),  BBB late p. 00-3/1 (valve adjustment) BBB late, p. 00-9/3 (off set camshaft keys),  BBB late p. 01-0/3 (M130 cylinder head critical dimensions), BBB late p. 01-0/4, p. 01-0/7, p. 01-0/8 (misc. M130 cyl. head valve guide info).,  BBB late p. 01-9, p. 01-11/1 through p. 01-13/1 (M130 cylinder head changes), BBB late p. 05-0/1 through p. 05-0/3 ( M130 cyl head valve, valve spring, chain tensioner info), BBB late p. 05-1/1 through 05/3/1 (M130 cyl head valve seals, chain tensioner, rocker arms, BBB late p. 05-9 (cyl head rocker arms M130 changes). BBB late p. 18-7/1 (M130 cyl head modifications). Some discussion on vertical and horizontal timing gears can be found in the early BBB p. 18-6/3.

It is interesting that I do not see a set by step cylinder head removal and installation procedure for any injected 6 cly engine in either of the two BBBs! Most likely covered in an earlier BBB on a different engine. ?  Keep your membership up to date, this site fills in the information gap!

Title: Re: Big Blue Book
Post by: mbzse on December 05, 2018, 10:13:46
Quote from: ja17
.../...It is interesting that I do not see a set by step cylinder head removal and installation procedure for any injected 6 cly engine in either of the two BBBs! Most likely covered in an earlier BBB on a different engine ?
Most likely covered in the 220 (Ponton etc.) workshop manual/binder of the 1950's
Title: Re: Big Blue Book
Post by: MikeSimon on December 05, 2018, 15:06:46

It is interesting that I do not see a set by step cylinder head removal and installation procedure for any injected 6 cly engine in either of the two BBBs! Most likely covered in an earlier BBB on a different engine. ?  Keep your membership up to date, this site fills in the information gap!

OMG, Joe! what a gem you are to put together all that info. I printed it out and stuck a copy in my BBB.

But the above comment of yours was exactly the reason for my disenchantment with the BBB. I took the head off and I am flying by the seat of my pants.... 
Title: Re: Big Blue Book
Post by: Chris_ATL on December 05, 2018, 15:11:01
I think the Mercedes book is nice to have as an extra for the car... but i find personally this website and the Haynes manual are the best practical guides

Title: Re: Big Blue Book
Post by: UJJ on December 05, 2018, 16:01:12
I have the BBB (later version) both in English and in German.
I prefer the German version since the language is quite better. I think the translation into English sometimes does not make sense.
I find it quite useful and I use it, however, this forum fills in the blanks, especially Joe's linkage adjustment for example, which is not covered in the BBB. Thanks to all of you.
Best, Urban
Title: Re: Big Blue Book
Post by: KevinC on December 06, 2018, 20:05:27
I have both the English and German version but the German version doesn't make sense to me. I wonder why?  ;)
Title: Re: Big Blue Book
Post by: MikeSimon on December 06, 2018, 21:05:30
So, you mean you can't figure out what the "Nockenwellenbeleuchtung" and the "Zwischengasbehälter" are???? :o
Title: Re: Big Blue Book
Post by: UJJ on December 07, 2018, 15:40:58
I wonder what size of bulb to use for the camshaft lightening (Nockenwellenbeleuchtung)? Not covered in the BBB.
How about a "Steinschlagschutsschuerze" ? Also known as a bra. ;D
Title: Re: Big Blue Book
Post by: MikeSimon on December 07, 2018, 20:07:47
 ;D ;D The German language has a reputation of creating words by stringing words together, thus making these long, long descriptive words you would not find in any dictionary
When I was a kid the term "Donaudampfschiffartskapitän" was always used to illustrate this. Those involved in our hobby are familiar with "Kraftfahrzeugbundesamt" or "Verbrennungskraftmaschine" or "Kraftstoffeinfüllstutzen"  ::) ::)
Title: Re: Big Blue Book
Post by: Rolf-Dieter on January 04, 2019, 19:47:41
Mike,

Speaking about the long German words, I needed help in my younger days and got myself some German to English help. The best book I found at the time was TECHNISCHES ENGLISH By Henry G, Freeman (Published in Düsseldorf in 1956) it helped me greatly in the 60s and 70s. Now that I am retired I have no longer need for it :)

I also have Volume I and II of Dubbels Taschenbuch für den Maschinenbau by F. Sass - Ch. Bouche - A. Leitner

I plan to list them on eBay perhaps someone in their younger years might need them.

Dieter

Title: Re: Big Blue Book
Post by: MikeSimon on January 04, 2019, 23:13:48
Hello Rolf-Dieter:
The "Dubbel" was strongly recommended by our professors at the Technische Hochschule Darmstadt, where I got my Engineering Degree.
I still have it. Together with the "Klein Technische Normen" it is still invaluable TODAY for me as a reference in my wrenching hobbies.
As far as a English-German translation help is concerned, I use Henry G. Freeman's "Technisches Taschenwörterbuch deutsch-englisch" and my trusted 2-Volume German-English/English-German Schöffler/Weis Dictionary, which is not particularly technical but plain amazing. Even after living in the U.S. for 30+ years, I still find words in there, I did not know.... ::) 8)
Title: Re: Big Blue Book
Post by: dirkbalter on January 04, 2019, 23:25:13
Now I have to show my books too. (But not yet for sale).