Pagoda SL Group

Off Topic => Other cars => Topic started by: mdsalemi on November 28, 2018, 15:54:55

Title: Tesla Model X
Post by: mdsalemi on November 28, 2018, 15:54:55
The Tesla model X is Tesla's answer to an entry in the SUV or crossover market.

https://www.tesla.com/modelx

When our local MBCA section had a tech even recently at our local tuner/independent, Motorwerks

https://www.motorwerksgroup.com

there was a Tesla model X in for crash repair. What happened is that at a stop, the driver was hit in the front right at about 5 MPH.

Alarmingly, and expensively, all the airbags in the Tesla went off. In a nod to unbelievably poor design (think Elon Musk is a genius? Maybe he should send all his trash into space...) the airbags in the seat burst the leather, by design, thus destroying completely the seats. So,two completely new front leather seats were required. The fit and finish on this car is like a Chrysler/Dodge circa "the dark days". There were lot of parts shortages, ongoing. The crash happened (keep reminding yourself that this was 5MPH) back in late July, and here it is mid November, and the car is still in pieces waiting on parts. Once all the parts have arrived (except those with airbags) and put together, the car has to be flatbedded to the nearest dealer, in Cleveland for installation and testing of the airbags. Total bill will be well over $10,000. Remember, 5MPH.

It is OK to say "if this is our future I want no part of it". The consensus from those who are taking the car apart to put it back together is that it is poorly made and poorly engineered.
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: UJJ on November 28, 2018, 16:02:51
Thanks for sharing Michael, alarming story.
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: Jack Jones on November 28, 2018, 17:41:54
Mike,

Very interesting story and this does not surprise me in the least. I have been asked many times about my opinion of the Tesla brand and it has been and still is that it is the flavor of the week for the people that want everyone to know how green they are. When it comes down to it, the major auto manufactures can and do build a better product and will be around long after Tesla is gone.

Jack   
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: MikeSimon on November 28, 2018, 20:15:08
Mike,

Very interesting story and this does not surprise me in the least. I have been asked many times about my opinion of the Tesla brand and it has been and still is that it is the flavor of the week for the people that want everyone to know how green they are. When it comes down to it, the major auto manufactures can and do build a better product and will be around long after Tesla is gone.

Jack

Jack: Truer words could not be spoken!
My personal opinion is, that Elon Musk's greatest talent is, to bilk investors and people with fat wallets out of their money!
One of these days, it will all come together and he will disappear or end up in jail..


On the E-car craze in general: Any idea why most of these electric vehicles run in SoCal (besides the fact that there is an overproportionate amount of rich residents..)?
--- The worst way to make heat is through electricity. A couple of years before I retired, our company worked on an alternative (to R134) a/c system.
The advantage of our approach was, it could run in reverse and be used as a heat pump. In order to demonstrate the advantage, we experimented with a Nissan Leaf and a Chevrolet (forgot the model name). The operating range of these things when using the (electrically powered) heater system dropped from 120 to 35 miles......
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: mdsalemi on November 28, 2018, 22:28:19
Any idea why most of these electric vehicles run in SoCal

I'll tell you why, exactly: it's the elephant in the room that nobody talks about. I had TWO PEV plug-in hybrid Ford Fusions. As long as it's 72 degrees (or say between 65 and 75) and you don't need any heat or a/c, you are OK. As soon as you need climate control those batteries drain faster than a water tank shot up with a .50 caliber machine gun. Nobody talks about it, nobody at all. Where do you get that temperature range consistently? SoCal! What a surprise!

Further to that drain, the batteries themselves are like humans: they work best ONLY when they are between that same temperature range of human comfort. There was an auxiliary battery heater in the Ford to heat the batteries. Where does that power come from? The batteries! When our battery heater failed, and no part was available, our car was not drivable for a month...because the car could not heat the batteries. Nobody talks about that. Nobody.

A great example of batteries and temperature is what happened today. My iPhone 6S, a few years old, has the original battery in it. It was at 100% when I removed it from the charger yesterday morning. I spent about an hour checking some things on line, and reading the morning paper. When I was done, it was at 90%. My battery health monitor indicates that the battery is at about 85% of new capacity. I placed the phone in my pocket, went outside in 27 degree weather, and returned 45 minutes later. Without any active use or screen use, the battery was at 53%, falling from 90%. The temperature of the phone was 52 degrees in my pocket. While the battery didn't rise above 53%, it held at 53% for the rest of the day, as I took photos, and used the phone. iPhones don't have battery heaters...

I lived with those Ford Fusion PEV Hybrids as a two year, low-cost experiment. They were $40,000+ MSRP each, tricked out cars, for $200 a month, how could I say no? But sure glad they were leased and turned in! Even sold the Level II charger for about as much as I paid for it.

Airbags are only supposed to go off in a head-on collision. Airbags that destroy costly leather seats are just bad design. God only knows how that one collision will tilt the cost of insuring a Model X across the board.

The panel gaps showed unbelievable variation, signs of poor engineering and manufacturing...
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: wayne R on November 29, 2018, 03:59:33
Michael ,Thanks for sharing that  really interesting  article.
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: pj on November 29, 2018, 05:28:09
A friend who owns a Tesla X tells me that he was required to sign an information release, giving the Tesla company complete rights to use all video captured by the 27 cameras on board. Some folks might think that's too much of an intrusion on privacy.
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: star63 on November 30, 2018, 10:24:09
I'll tell you why, exactly: it's the elephant in the room that nobody talks about. I had TWO PEV plug-in hybrid Ford Fusions. As long as it's 72 degrees (or say between 65 and 75) and you don't need any heat or a/c, you are OK. As soon as you need climate control those batteries drain faster than a water tank shot up with a .50 caliber machine gun. Nobody talks about it, nobody at all. Where do you get that temperature range consistently? SoCal! What a surprise!

I installed an auxiliary petrol heater (Eberspächer) to my BMW i3 two weeks ago. It seems to help maintaining my electric range in the winter time (about 30% longer range). I can also use it for pre-heating. Very happy with it!
Naturally, the battery capacity is affected by the low temperature but not as much as I thought.
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: Cees Klumper on November 30, 2018, 14:27:48
I am happy that there are at least a few companies like Toyota and Tesla who are seriously investing in a future without oil.
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: AGT on November 30, 2018, 14:54:50
I am with Cees on this as, in our cities at least, we need to switch to non ICE cars.

I admire what Tesla has done by investing in its supercharger network and building the Model S (which is on many levels a very fine car). The future of electric cars is going to be about the charging network, battery technology and the quality of the software. The electric motors are boring and logically drive all four wheels. It will be much harder for Audi, BMW and Mercedes to retain their premium branding without their superb ICEs and with ride and handling compromised by the weight of the on board batteries. Without these key differentiators, the individuality of our cars will become blurred.

I have ordered a Jaguar I-Pace and, while I am very much looking forward to its arrival, it certainly does not kill the Model S and arguably lags behind in some key areas such as powertrain efficiency. JLR may not be a premium brand and the new offerings from Audi and Mercedes may be better, but I would not write Tesla off just yet.

Regards
Andrew
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: mdsalemi on November 30, 2018, 16:34:38
Another elephant in the room that nobody talks about is the drain on electrical infrastructure.

The power grid around the world, presently, could probably not handle all non-fossil fuel cars. Natural gas accounts for ~45% of electricity generated in UK; coal 31%; nuclear 14% and renewables less than 6%. Thus, the electricity to power these electric cars is coming mostly from fossil fuels. Around the world, these numbers change but we still make a lot of electricity with fossil fuel.

I have no idea how the displacement would work (how much more infrastructure we'd need), but in the heat of summer in the USA, brownouts and "peak shaving" of turning off high demand usage is common. To add a large load to this network only increases the amount of fossil fuel burned. You are just shifting it back upstream you don't make it go away.  The largest and fattest electrical wire in my home is the 8 gauge required to power the Level II charger. This unit required 40A, 9,600 watts in operation when charging. That's more than the a/c and heat pump I have, more than the electric ovens, too.

But my initial posting wasn't about fossil fueled cars versus electric, not at all: it was about how such a costly car as a Tesla Model X was so poorly engineered. There is no way a car that gets hit at 5MPH should require 14 new airbags and new seats--no excuse on that at all except poor engineering.

I laugh at the post from Star63...an electric car, with an auxiliary petrol heater! What a concept!
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: AGT on November 30, 2018, 17:58:04
Michael

Agreed that I am guilty of going off-off-topic.

You've been to Scotland and you know that  its wet and windy! Even in the height of summer. In 2017 more than 2/3rds of Scotland's energy needs were met without fossil fuels. As long as I only charge my car at home that's not too bad.

I don't disagree that Tesla's priorities can seem the wrong way round for us "petrolheads". I personally don't like their interiors. However, the things that Tesla does get right are at the very heart of what makes a good and usable electric car.

Regards
Andrew
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: mbzse on November 30, 2018, 18:10:10
Quote from: mdsalemi
.../....I laugh at the post from Star63...an electric car, with an auxiliary petrol heater! What a concept!
One unfortunate thing is, those aux heating devices are emitting pollutants. There is no cleaning of the exhaust fumes and this affects claims of the "null emissions" from electric vehicles...
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: MikeSimon on November 30, 2018, 20:21:51
I am familiar with the Eberspächer "Standheizung" from the old days of the Volkswagen Beetle, but how do you manage fuel supply to these units in an electric car like a Tesla without a gasoline tank. Hybrid I understand, but full electric... ??? ::)
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: star63 on December 01, 2018, 15:05:35
I laugh at the post from Star63...an electric car, with an auxiliary petrol heater! What a concept!

Actually, quite practical. Living in Michigan you know that proper heating makes driving much more comfortable in the winter time. Gasoline engines have a very poor energy efficiency. This is why electric cars make much sense. Modern auxiliary heaters, on the other hand, have a very high efficiency. And the fuel consumption is very low => low emissions. And you can burn ethanol instead of gasoline...  :)
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: mdsalemi on December 02, 2018, 14:05:14
Actually, quite practical. Living in Michigan you know that proper heating makes driving much more comfortable in the winter time. Gasoline engines have a very poor energy efficiency. This is why electric cars make much sense. Modern auxiliary heaters, on the other hand, have a very high efficiency. And the fuel consumption is very low => low emissions. And you can burn ethanol instead of gasoline...  :)

According to "Energy and Power Plants" by Dr. John Zactruba, here are some efficiencies to consider:

Coal fired power plants: 32-42% (supplies 41% of the world's electricity for the grid)
Natural gas power plants: 32-38% (supplies 20% of the world's electricity for the grid)
Hydro Turbines: 85-90% (YAY Canada!)

Therefore, the energy to charge a very efficient hybrid car is coming from, generally, electrical sources on the grid that are at fairly conventional efficiencies. Of course if you live in Canada, and your power comes mostly from hydro, that's a different story. So driving an electric car today makes the owner/lessee feet very green, all they are doing is pushing the carbon emissions and efficiency (or lack thereof) upstream where the electricity is generated.

Now if you have an electric car, but have any kind of heat engine (petrol, alcohol or whatever) to "keep it warm" or related, you are just negating the effects of the car's electrical efficiency! As others pointed out small engines are not subject to any kind of emission controls.

Because we have cold winters in Michigan (gotta heat the batteries and heat the occupants) and hot summers (gotta cool the batteries and cool the occupants) PEV cars just don't make a lot of sense in this climate. The car is spending a lot of energy just managing the climate control of the occupants AND the batteries. Not so in SoCal as someone pointed out...

Unlike many who speak of PEV cars, I've owned TWO of them. They are "not ready for prime time" but I'm sure glad there are early adopters. Rather than pure PEV cars I think the Prius and Chevy Volt powertrains are the best ones for today's society, since they are well done hybrids. The Prius, ugly as it is and uninspiring in so many ways. has a solid, mature, highly engineered powertrain platform.

But again this thread wasn't about electric cars in general, or PEV vs hybrid vs gas only, but just how poorly thought out the Tesla X engineering was. This was from a high end shop that regularly tears apart everything from gull wings to Ferraris and knows a well done car when they see one. Keep reminding yourself: $10,000+  plus 90+ days to fix a 5 MPH crash...that's what started this thread here.

We of all people here, this group of Pagoda owners, shouldn't be speaking of carbon efficiencies or pollution or green or anything of the sort. A well tuned Pagoda puts out a huge amount of everything that caused the US EPA to create pollution mandates!
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: Jonny B on December 02, 2018, 16:19:42
One anecdote I have heard, a Pagoda emits more emissions parked, with the engine off, than a modern car does with the engine running!
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: mbzse on December 02, 2018, 17:24:16
Quote from: Jonny B
One anecdote I have heard, a Pagoda emits more emissions parked, with the engine off, than a modern car does with the engine running!
For certain a Pagoda sure oozes out more style, even when parked   ;)
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: mdsalemi on December 03, 2018, 18:09:30
Speaking of "emissions" and "Pagodas" let me hijack my own thread on this topic.

For a continent that once seemingly dismissed the mandated USA emissions controls, Europe has gone so crazy green that it is beyond comprehension...let's forget the biodegradable "green" wiring harnesses on some Mercedes of a certain vintage, and focus on...my book "Pagoda Style".

Those of you in the know, might remember that a large number of these books were sold at the MB Classic Center Museum Gift Shop in Germany. I think they ended up buying from me (which founding members enjoyed in the profit-return) about 60 copies of the book and I think they sold them for 79 Euros.

A long time after the last book was sold, I got a form from the Classic Center bookshop that had to be filled out. You see, they had to pay some kind of carbon tax on the (Polyolefin) plastic wrap that protected each book, because the books were delivered without some kind of "green dot" on them. So, without the most accurate scale and with nothing even remotely like this at the retail level in the USA, the printer had to weigh the plastic on a book. It turns out that this small amount of plastic wrap weighed approximately 4g (.14 oz) per book. Then the bookshop had to fill out some form, and pay some tax to be in compliance with Germany's (or maybe EU???) "Packaging Act, Section 6 Paragraph 1". I had to send them MSDS sheet on the Sealed Air Cryovac D-955 Multi-purpose shrink film that was used. I did not have to pay any tax, but Daimler did...yes, for the usage of approximately 240 grams of polyolefin plastic wrap. Ridiculous.
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: MikeSimon on December 03, 2018, 22:51:39
As a German expatriate and having spent my first 36 years in Europe, I can confirm all that. I always found it funny how the rules and regulations regarding the environment swung around. Especially in the auto industry. Catalytic converters were in the US, long before they came to Europe.
Let's not forget, that the short life of the 250 version of our W113 was caused by the US EPA emission rules. 
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: hkollan on December 03, 2018, 22:56:25
Let's not forget, that the short life of the 250 version of our W113 was caused by the US EPA emission rules.

Just wondering how you came to that conclusion.

Hans K
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: zak on December 04, 2018, 00:57:32
Yes, being a 250 SL owner I am curious about your comment, Mike.
Interesting.

jz
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: MikeSimon on December 04, 2018, 01:23:05
If you look into the history of the EPA rules in the United States, you will find changes in 1967 that forced Daimler Benz to re-evaluate their engine offerings. They were not able to meet these requirements with the M129 and had to redesign the motor. Thus the M130. There was no such need for a change in the homeland.
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: 66andBlue on December 04, 2018, 07:13:20
Mike,
I am not sure whether the EPA in 1967 had that much influence on Daimler's board.
If you read Engelen's account (I hope you do have this book) you'll find that the decision to install the M130 engine in the W113 was driven by the competition (Porsche and BMW) who had more powerful engines and by changes in consumer taste. New customers no longer desired GT rally cars but spirited open air touring cars. Here are two excerpts from the book describing a board meeting in February 1967 when the decision for the 280SL was made.
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: MikeSimon on December 04, 2018, 14:18:43
Well, this was the story we were given by Daimler Benz marketing guys in the 80s. Considering that roughly 50% of all SLs went to the U.S., and 1967 was a pivotal year for DOT and EPA in the U.S., it seemed believable.
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: mrfatboy on December 04, 2018, 14:35:39
Going back to the Tesla topic, I just saw this crazy article this morning 🤪

https://fox5sandiego.com/2018/12/03/dui-suspect-caught-sleeping-in-tesla-traveling-70-mph-officers-say/?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=5c065f6f04d3014ac2dfdfe7&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter (https://fox5sandiego.com/2018/12/03/dui-suspect-caught-sleeping-in-tesla-traveling-70-mph-officers-say/?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=5c065f6f04d3014ac2dfdfe7&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter)


Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: thelews on December 04, 2018, 16:05:10
And, the 280s have power robbing pollution stuff on them that the 230 and 250 don't, I believe.
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: UJJ on December 04, 2018, 16:11:00
Obviously this is not specific to the Tesla cars since all modern cars come with all kind of gismos, which in my opinion is dangerous because it takes away the focus on driving.
Perhaps the DUI driver will argue that he was not driving under the influence but the car was?
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: mdsalemi on December 04, 2018, 16:43:52
Well, this was the story we were given by Daimler Benz marketing guys in the 80s. Considering that roughly 50% of all SLs went to the U.S., and 1967 was a pivotal year for DOT and EPA in the U.S., it seemed believable.

Anything is speculation and also believable.

In 1966, a Porsche 911 had 130 HP, and a 912 had 90 HP.  The BMW "Neue Klasse" 1800 had 90 HP.  The 1964 230SL of course had 148 HP, so it was better to start than the "competition".

What car line or the era wasn't offered with increasingly larger engines and more HP? I don't think any; they all were increasing all the time.
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: waltklatt on December 04, 2018, 17:10:03
And, the 280s have power robbing pollution stuff on them that the 230 and 250 don't, I believe.

Remember back when I was 14 yrs old, following the 'Family Mechanic', driving a euro spec 280SL, and the mechanic driving an american spec 450SL.
I was way faster than the him and chirped the tires in each gear, even with the wide AMG wheels.

That's how bad the emissions were on the US models.
Now the emissions are much more improved.

Walter
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: MikeSimon on December 04, 2018, 17:29:30
Murky, murky....When I brought my 1970 280SL over to the States in 1988 (less than 25 years old then!) and started to look into the differences because of the Federalization requirements, I had info the only difference in the motor was the cam with different overlap and a lower compression. Now everybody in the U.S. says they have a 9.5:1 compression head on their 280 and my German spec car has a 9.0:1 head. Go figure.
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: 49er on December 04, 2018, 17:57:12
 I had/have two “out of the box” SL’s, a 67 250 and a 69 280. Maybe it was just a marketing ploy but the 280 definitely felt more peppy. As far as the Tesla goes, there are lots of them here in CA and I have a few neighbors that own the model S and they are pretty happy with them. Just my 2 cents.

John
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: mdsalemi on December 04, 2018, 18:58:49
there are lots of them here in CA and I have a few neighbors that own the model S and they are pretty happy with them

Any been crashed? See any repair bills? Talk to any independent repair facilities about what they found during a repair? That's the origin of the thread. Keep reminding yourself. 5 MPH collision. 90+ days wait for parts. $10,000+...
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: MikeSimon on December 04, 2018, 22:54:51
most of these electric vehicles run in SoCal 

What I said!
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: ghenne on December 05, 2018, 14:50:36
Here's a thought provoking presentation by Tony Ciba.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxryv2XrnqM&t=164s

It runs almost an hour and is worth every minute. Big changes are coming: he explains why with careful research.
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: waltklatt on December 07, 2018, 16:28:07
Has anyone seen the new offering from Aston Martin?
They seem to be offering a retrofit kit and installation to your vintage Aston Martin car for a fee.

The kit includes a full conversion to EV can and it's completely reversable back to the original gas unit, if you change your mind.

Wonder if Mercedes will be into that too.

Walter
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: thelews on December 07, 2018, 16:41:40
You can do that on a Jag XKE too.
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: MikeSimon on December 07, 2018, 22:28:45
You can do that on a Jag XKE too.

Wow... what a concept!! Take out that 12 cylinder and replace it with a soundless, wired, stator/rotor. I bet you can hook a lot of kids and turn them into real motorheads for the future..... :o
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: mdsalemi on December 07, 2018, 23:24:43
In the 1968 song "Born to be Wild", first recorded by Steppenwolf, the first lines are:

Get your motor runnin'
Head out on the highway
Lookin' for adventure
And whatever comes our way

And those simple sentences, though perhaps meant in a motorcycle sense, sum up car culture quite succinctly. While I wouldn't discount some kind of culture developing (besides the green one) around electric vehicles*, I don't think there are a lot of young kids today pining for a Prius, or thirsting for a Tesla. They are appliances.

*we think of personal computers as appliances, too...but there is a culture or subculture that has developed around them with "hackers" overclocking their CPUs, and taking the architecture of the machine to limits and pushing the envelope with cooling systems, memory etc. So, I suspect in time something will happen with electric cars too...they'll be hacked for more power...
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: Bonnyboy on December 08, 2018, 01:36:54
I don't know if we are different here in Vancouver Canada but electric vehicles are seen as being fun to many of the younger crowd.   Here at work we have 3 different electric vehicles, 3 hybrids and 3 regular petrol vehicles used as pool vehicles for staff.  The electric vehicles are the first to be booked as they seem to have the fun factor - the Chevy Volt in Sport Mode is lots of fun and I think that is what will sell these electric vehicles over time.  The Chrysler Pacifica has lots of "oomph" that makes it fun in town as well.     You just can't find them in the dealerships as they sell out as soon as they get them.

I know three people who bought used Nissan Leafs for cheap and the plan is to use them until they die and sell them cheap to the "electric car rebuilders" at that time. The expected horizon seems to be much less than a comparable gas vehicle but people seem to think they are saving so much money it will be worth it.    I still drive my 14 yr old Dodge 4x4 with a 5.7 hemi and gas hasn't killed me yet so I think the claims of saving tons of money with electric are over exaggerated.     There are businesses that have sprung up fixing the electric cars and batteries and it all seems to be heading the way the government wants, albeit a bit slower then they project. 

The electric bicycles and scooters are commonly upgraded significantly and are zipping in and out of traffic to the point where I think they are dangerous (coming from a scooter rider). 

The times are a changing.




Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: mdsalemi on December 08, 2018, 18:19:54
Ian,

Of course you are different in Vancouver. First, you are polite--the Canadian way. You gave us Diana Krall and so much more...but I digress. The weather. When you get to -10 and -20C (like so much of Canada does, and a large swath of the northern USA) and 32 to 37C in the summer, those EV folks might be singing a different song.

Last gas tank fillup I paid USD $2.08/gallon. Diesel is $3.30. electricity is steady at $0.12 kwH

The Volt is cancelled, so better get your fun with it while it lasts.
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: mnahon on December 10, 2018, 12:32:37
Diana Krall is from Nanaimo. Yes, Nanaimo is on Vancouver Island, but that shouldn't be confused with Vancouver.

Isn't digression wonderful?
Title: Everyone in Mongolia drives a Prius
Post by: 66andBlue on January 10, 2019, 03:40:56
I'll tell you why, exactly: it's the elephant in the room that nobody talks about. I had TWO PEV plug-in hybrid Ford Fusions. As long as it's 72 degrees (or say between 65 and 75) and you don't need any heat or a/c, you are OK. As soon as you need climate control those batteries drain faster than a water tank shot up with a .50 caliber machine gun. Nobody talks about it, nobody at all. Where do you get that temperature range consistently? SoCal! What a surprise!
Different worlds ... different needs.  8)
"But the clincher is the Prius’s reliability. Ulaanbaatar may be the chilliest capital in the world. On a winter morning drivers must sometimes start their cars in temperatures below -30°C. Cars that run on petrol and diesel tend to sputter and die at such temperatures. The Prius can use its battery to power its electrical engine until the car warms up enough for the petrol engine to run smoothly—saving many a Mongolian from freezing frustration."

https://www.economist.com/asia/2018/12/22/everyone-in-mongolia-drives-a-prius
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: Benz Dr. on January 10, 2019, 07:34:32
And, the 280s have power robbing pollution stuff on them that the 230 and 250 don't, I believe.

What power robbing stuff would that be?
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: mdsalemi on January 11, 2019, 17:18:02
Well, Alfred--the Prius is a hybrid, not a PEV. Yes, in the world of Ulan Batoor it makes sense particularly when you can get used ones for $2K, and they don't carry the taxes of other cars.

I could only imagine a full PEV in the metropolis of Mongolia. Oh sure, there are power charging stations all over the place...NOT!
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: 66andBlue on January 11, 2019, 20:09:06
Hi Michael, yes I know that the Prius is a hybrid.
But you wrote "I had TWO PEV plug-in hybrid Ford Fusions" - so these are not hybrids? Then what they are "hybridized" with?  ;)
Anyway, I just was surprised what makes certain cars popular in far away lands.
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: mdsalemi on January 16, 2019, 15:06:53
Hi Michael, yes I know that the Prius is a hybrid.
But you wrote "I had TWO PEV plug-in hybrid Ford Fusions" - so these are not hybrids? Then what they are "hybridized" with?  ;)
Anyway, I just was surprised what makes certain cars popular in far away lands.

Getting technical, Alfred, there are a number of cars out there....Hybrids with both batteries and gas engines, but no place to plug them in (such as the Honda Civic Hybrid Gen 1, 2003, the Ford Escape Hybrid Gen 1, 2005); hybrids that you can plug in such as the Chevy Volt, and the Ford Fusion Energi, the latter not to be confused with the Ford Fusion Hybrid. Then there are the pure PEV's such as Tesla with no gasoline engines at all.

I fully stand by my assessment of how ambient temperature, which results in changing climate control needs for a car, wildly affect how such a car can perform. That's why it's the elephant in the room, and why these are often tested in [temp stable] SoCal. For anyone to expect a battery to perform the same in -20 degrees and 105 degrees doesn't know about batteries, I'm afraid...
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: AGT on January 17, 2019, 15:30:35
Jaguar launched its I-pace in the summer with deliveries coming on stream just as the European winter was coming. Sales were focussed on the Netherlands where a tax benefit would expire at the end of 2018 with Norway also taking a lot of the early deliveries. Initial range reports from owners were disappointing and Jaguar in the Netherlands has now confirmed different ranges for summer and winter. The summer range for combined city/highway use is 267 miles and the winter range for combined city/highway use is only 201 miles.

The extra resistance of winter tyres further impacts range although this can be offset by running your winter tyres on reduced size wheels.

Assuming you have the luxury of plugging the car in every night you can start your winter morning with a pre-heated interior and pre-conditioned battery pack which means that the warm up phase during winter need not impact that day's range.

Andrew
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: MikeSimon on January 18, 2019, 01:28:24
It needs to be considered that the fuel mileage numbers are not being determined by actual driving cycles, but by running the vehicle on a dynamometer with simulated ambient and road conditions. How close these results are to the real world is anybody's guess. And there is ample evidence and history of such numbers being fudged in order to look good on a data sheet and in a comparison.
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: mdsalemi on January 25, 2019, 19:30:35
I fully stand by my assessment of how ambient temperature, which results in changing climate control needs for a car, wildly affect how such a car can perform. That's why it's the elephant in the room, and why these are often tested in [temp stable] SoCal. For anyone to expect a battery to perform the same in -20 degrees and 105 degrees doesn't know about batteries, I'm afraid...

I went for a walk this morning with my iPhone at 95% charge. It was 5 degrees F. When I returned 40 minutes later, my phone--without use, but merely from ambient temperature--was down to 5% and in low power mode...
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: Mike Hughes on January 26, 2019, 20:40:10
... which means that, even though you weren't "using" your device, there were multiple search, connectivity and data apps running in the background while you were out on your walk, such as Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, navigation/location, time, weather, Internet access etc, and the path of your walk may have also caused your devicee to have to search for and switch among multiple cel towers to maintain voice and data connectivity.  It wouldn't be fair to say that the drop in available charge you observed was due to extreme low temperature alone.  The device was working the same as it would likely have been working on a more temperate day drawing current for normal stand-by and background operations, but in less than ideal temps.  Still it IS certainly an interesting observation.  I suspect it would still be more on such a cold day than on a more temperate day, but I wonder how much the charge would have dropped if all of the power robbing apps that we so rely on for near instant personal communications gratification these days were disabled?  For example, my Motorola Droid can go four or more days between charges - IF I switch off inductive charging, Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, Google Maps, Wayz, time zone, weather report, Chrome, and e-mail.   Airplane Mode gives about the same charge interval.   If I just switch off Bluetooth and Wi-Fi I can still go three days.  If everything is active it's about two. and if I am making a lot of calls, sending and receiving a lot of e-mails, opening attachments, doing Google searches, opening web-pages, downloading, etc., I may have to recharge again by the end of the day.
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: MikeSimon on January 26, 2019, 21:18:55
Well.... it looks like Elon Musk is starting to feel the heat (and reality). Latest reports have him addressing his employees asking for extra efforts...or maybe preparing them for the inevitable...the demise of Tesla.
No great loss in my book - sorry if I offend anybody who thinks we need this for the future. :o
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: mdsalemi on January 27, 2019, 20:12:29
... which means that, even though you weren't "using" your device, there were multiple search, connectivity and data apps running in the background

Mike, with all due respect: nonsense. I walk the same route every single day. Exactly the same path, give or take a few feet or so. My phone does not appreciably change charge in the spring or summer, and even when it's in the 30s or 40s, it's not changing much. But, drop down to that 0-15 degree mark, all kinds of havoc.

We are (and we're not alone) having one of those infernal "polar vortex" phenomenah. It's a new set of words, we used to call a "Canadian air mass" but I guess that annoyed our neighbors to the north (or south from where I am). It's been 3 degrees to 12 degrees F in the mornings, and for the past three days, my phone has gone from nearly fully charged at the start of the walk, to nearly dead upon my return. Today, it was at 3%, after starting at 86%. On a normal day, it may not show any drop at all, or just a few % if anything...nothing noticable or appreciable. Oh, in case you are asking, a battery app I have indicates from its own testing that my battery is at 85% of its rated life. So, it's not my specific battery.

Therefore it's the temperature pure and simple, and having had two PEV (Fusion Energi Hybrids) I can tell you that cold temps and batteries do not mix. Do. Not. Mix. I'd start with a full charge--18 mile range--and in half a mile it would drop to 12, and before you know it the Atkinson-Cycle engine would be doing all the work...in the cold.

Russel Jones, we can't get to Mooresville fast enough... ;)
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: Mike Hughes on January 29, 2019, 20:32:51
Hi Michael -

I wasn't disputing the fact that your phone's battery is discharging heavily in severe cold, but rather asking, as a matter of intellectual curiosity, if the rate of discharge is solely due to the cold, and not to the multiplicity of background functions the phone may be carrying out during your walk.  I then noted my phone's battery life in normal operation and also in various stages of restricted operation, such as Airplane mode (in admittedly more normal temperature ranges).  I'm still curious how much your phone would discharge if it was, for instance, placed in airplane mode during your walk in the extreme cold conditions you are currently experiencing.

I will explain why I am asking:  When Lucy and I go up to out cabin in the mountains where there is no cell service, if I don't turn the phone off it will completely discharge by the next day.  The reason why I am told is that some things running in the background cause it to be constantly "pinging" to find and connect to a cell tower.  Putting it in airplane mode slows the rate of discharge substantially.  So this ongoing discussion has piqued my curiosity:  We are likely to see some really low temps up there this weekend and I plan to leave it out in the truck in airplane mode one night to see how much more it discharges just because of the cold.
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: mdsalemi on January 30, 2019, 16:21:40
...When Lucy and I go up to out cabin in the mountains where there is no cell service, if I don't turn the phone off it will completely discharge by the next day.  The reason why I am told is that some things running in the background cause it to be constantly "pinging" to find and connect to a cell tower.  Putting it in airplane mode slows the rate of discharge substantially.

Your observation is spot on. When a phone has issues trying to connect to a tower, the power to the transmitter is turned up, and this increases your power consumption. My daughter's high school (thank goodness!) had very poor cell service in the building; kids were not allowed to keep phones on them anyway, but she'd put it in her locker at full charge at 7:30am, and when it was time to leave at 2:15pm it would be nearly dead--as the phone spent all day trying to connect, cranking up the power trying in a futile attempt to grab a tower. Turned out that this was exacerbated by a partial failure of the transmitter in the phone which just exacerbated the problem.

There are plenty of academic research studies on this, just google "effect of temperature on lithium ion batteries" and you'll see. My Ford Fusions had battery heaters. When the battery heaters don't work, the car is essentially disabled. Been there and done that, and waited 5 weeks for a replacement heater a few years ago, rendering the car unusable during that time period. "Waiting for Godot".
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: mbzse on February 12, 2019, 14:45:00
Quote from: mdsalemi
..../....how ambient temperature, which results in changing climate control needs for a car, wildly affect how such a car can perform. That's why it's the elephant in the room, and why these are often tested in [temp stable] SoCal. For anyone to expect a battery to perform the same in -20 degrees and 105 degrees doesn't know about batteries, I'm afraid...
AAA have published a thesis on this theme, see https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/10/18217041/electric-car-ev-extreme-weather-polar-vortex (https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/10/18217041/electric-car-ev-extreme-weather-polar-vortex)
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: mdsalemi on February 12, 2019, 15:06:02
AAA have published a thesis on this theme, see https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/10/18217041/electric-car-ev-extreme-weather-polar-vortex (https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/10/18217041/electric-car-ev-extreme-weather-polar-vortex)

...and don't forget battery-sucking hot weather as well!  When you have that AC on MAX when the ambient temperature is in the 90s and the cockpit temperature is a dog- and child-killing 120 degrees, try running a 3 to 5 ton capacity air conditioner on AA cells...which exactly what the EV's use.

Oh, and here is an update on that infamous Model X that engendered this thread.  It is STILL at the repair shop! Yes, it's all done, but waiting on Tesla's team to come and re-program the ECUs (they won't allow anyone else to do that) and once they do that it still has to get flatbedded to the nearest dealer in the Cleveland area for the airbag install. Remember this crash happened last summer.

My friend at the shop told me this morning that he ordered a control arm for this Model X at the beginning of September, and it was 6 weeks before Tesla shipped the part. By contrast, he recently ordered a similar control arm for an Audi A8, and Audi had it at his shop in 6 hours.

So I've yet to jump on board the EV train or drink the Tesla Kool-Aid. And, while I'm at it, the whole self driving car phenom, or "mobility 2.0" as some want to call it has a LOOOOOONG way to go in sensor technology before it is "ready for prime time".  I understand the sensors not working properly in freezing rain and sleet--but guess what folks--that's the weather!  Last week my adaptive cruise sensors stopped working in the heavy rain...long, long way to go...
Title: Re: Tesla Model X
Post by: neelyrc on February 12, 2019, 16:01:10
.....Oh, and here is an update on that infamous Model X that engendered this thread.  It is STILL at the repair shop!........

Yesterday the Wall Street Journal reported on the Tesla Service problem.
 
https://www.wsj.com/articles/tesla-is-cranking-out-model-3snow-it-has-to-service-them-11549810800