Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: Koolmarca on September 08, 2018, 17:28:05
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My 1965 230SL that I bought in Germany in 1984 and shipped to the USA has had one engine rebuild and currently I am told it can't be rebuilt and I have to have a "New" old engine installed. Help... is this true or does anyone have a 1965 230 SL engine I can buy to install in my baby!! Its a manual 4 on the floor stick shift.
Thanks!! I need an engine yesterday or someone who can look at my engine and let me know if it is a goner or can be rebuilt.
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What exactly did they tell you, why it cannot be rebuild? Usually, if the engine needs bored, it can be done 2 or 3 times if oversize pistons are available.
If the first rebuild required a substantial size overbore due to a catastrophic failure, you may be at the limit.
Difficult to comment without a tad more detail. I would think that short blocks for the 230SL should not be that difficult to come by. The M127 was a fairly common motor.
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Short blocks are indeed very hard to come by because they are unique to the 230SL.
Only an engine that has suffered serious mechanical damage to the block is irreparable (and even then if the value is high enough you will be amazed at what can be saved.
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There is going to be a point in which these engines will need to be sleeved. The tech exists, its just a matter of time until used units dry up completely.
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If it could be of any help, I have a solid 250SE engine, in case you cannot find a 230SL.
Reach out via PM if you don't find exactly what you are after.
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Short blocks are indeed very hard to come by because they are unique to the 230SL.
I was thinking a 220SE short block M127 could be bored to 82mm for a 230SL, also, what is the difference between the 230SL M127II short block and that of the 230S of 1965 - ???
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I have no experience with this specific engine but I think the cylinder walls may not be thick enough to handle a sleeve. I think you run the risk of cutting through the existing cylinder wall if you cut it that much. That being said without specific information like what was the engine bored to on the last rebuild or if it has and bearing damage it is hard to comment on it's rebuildability.
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.../...what is the difference between the 230SL M127II short block and that of the 230S of 1965 - ???
The fitting for the Fuel Injection pump (230 S has carburettor).
The FI pump mounting is an integral part of the steel casting
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My engine did not suffer catastrophic failure... it just kept losing more and more power to the point where it was very difficult to go up hills... and Berkeley does have a lot of hills! My engine is a solid cast aluminum body... very pretty to look at... 6-cylinder. Does this help with figuring out if it can be saved? Also I saw on this site where someone said they shipped their engine to the Mercedes factory in Berlin and it was rebuilt or at least replaced with a "New" old certified engine with a new serial number.
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If you have an alloy block you have the wrong engine!
all M127 engines are cast iron.
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The fitting for the Fuel Injection pump (230 S has carburettor).
The FI pump mounting is an integral part of the steel casting
Forgot about the FI pump. 220SE block would not work either. For one reason, FI pump has the wrong drive ratio.
If someone, who is not that familiar with the hardware, looks into the engine bay and sees the intake manifold and the cylinder head, he may mistake the motor for all-aluminum alloy. 8)
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I may be mistaken in what my engine is made of.... it is the original engine with serial number. I am the third owner of this car. I purchased it in 1984 when I was stationed in Wuerzburg, Germany... so it was made for the European market.
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Someone asked already, but it was not answered yet:
What is the reason that the current engine cannot be rebuild?
Also, who told you? May be you should get a second opinion from a Mercedes specialist before you are looking for alternative engines?
Dirk
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Keep in mind that there are 3 different versions of the 230SL engine plus you can also use a 250SL block in place of a 230 but I would think you would need to change the IP to a 250 for everything to work right. There are options available - it's not nearly as bad as it looks. Finding a head gasket may be your biggest hurdle.
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Headgasket: As there is a similar problem regarding availability with the later 280SL engine headgasket, I will proceed with my plans to talk to the local gasket manufacturer and find out how much a gasket repro for the M130 would cost. If it is anywhere close to decent, maybe we can check into having M127II gaskets made also and do a group buy. I will keep you posted.
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I gave my mechanic the Metric Motors contact information to get my engine rebuilt or swapped out. The website if anyone needs it is: http://mercedesengines.net/230sl-250sl/ - Once my engine is all nice and purring again...then I will work on her cosmetic work. I am planning on driving this car for the next 5 to 10 years all over California. I never heard back from the Mercedes factory in Stuttgart about whether they do engine rebuilds or swaps in any of their factories. There is a car restorer in Europe who specializes in Mercedes and Porsches - but that doesn't help me being here in California.
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You're in good hands with Metric Motors, and they are in California like yourself, so another plus. Keep us posted please.
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Metric Motors rebuilt the engine on my 230SL early this year so I can vouch for them. I shipped it to them from the Bay Area. Their turnaround was quick and with nearly 1000 miles on the rebuilt engine I've been satisfied and glad that I had them do the work.
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I agree
The engine in my 280 was rebuild by Metric Motors about 40K miles ago.
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thank you for the good news about Metric Motors! I can't wait to get my baby back... Then I will need to do a little body work and paint job plus some cleaning up on the inside. Has anyone had good luck with pagoda roof hoists?
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Koolmarca, the search function is your friend! ;)
If you do a search on “roof lift” or similar using the search function (fourth button from left above) you will find a number of Pagoda roof hoisting solutions.
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I just ordered and now have two complete head gasket sets for my 1966 230SL (head gasket, intake/exhaust, manifold, o-rings, etc). I got them from the local Mercedes Dealer.
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Someone needs this? not related or whatever...
https://www.ebay.de/itm/Zylinderkopfdichtung-fur-Mercedes-300SEL-W109-280SL-280SE-W111-280SEL-bis-Nr/263912479380
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This is the earlier head gasket, which is still available from numerous sources. The 280SL one which is not available, is the late version.
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you are in good hands with metric!
They rebuild motors for some of the stateside restorers.
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Update on my engine rebuild status.... after a bunch of crossed wires, my mechanic here in Berkeley is finally in contact with Mike at Metric Motors (they are in the LA area) and my engine will soon be on its way and hopefully I will have my baby again and then can get advice for getting her "makeup refreshed".
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Forgot about the FI pump. 220SE block would not work either. For one reason, FI pump has the wrong drive ratio.
If someone, who is not that familiar with the hardware, looks into the engine bay and sees the intake manifold and the cylinder head, he may mistake the motor for all-aluminum alloy. 8)
I'm not sure what you mean by '' drive ratio. '' Could you explain that for us?
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I'm not sure what you mean by '' drive ratio. '' Could you explain that for us?
The 6-plunger FI pump on the SL was driven at half engine speed as opposed to the 220SE which rotated at engine speed. Thus, it had a different "drive ratio"
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Are you saying that the distributor drive gear is half the size of a regular drive gear? How would they get the ignition distributor to work and somehow have the IP run at twice that speed? It's been a few years since I rebuilt one of those engines but I don't remember seeing anything different in the chain case or drive gears. Kind of confused here. ???
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The distributor always rotates at half the engine speed, because you fire each cylinder only at every other turn. The Fuel Injection pump drive gear is the difference. The 220SE pump ran at engine speed, the 230SL and all later SLs do not. I have not looked at a 220SE FI pump, but I would assume the drive gear looks quite a bit different to that of an SL
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I have to respectfully disagree here. The injection pump on the 220 runs from the same shaft as the distributor drive and is essentially the same as the 230SL. Since the cam gear and distributor drive gears are twice the size as the crank gear, both of those shafts turn at half crank speed. The IP is connected directly to the distributor drive gear shaft and so could only turn at the same speed.
The timing on a 220SE can be set at either TDC or BTC as it sprays into the intake manifold right at the parting surface of the cylinder head. The 220SE and the 230SL are more similar than they are different.
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Dan: You are the expert here, so I will not dispute that any further. The only thing is, the final speed of the FI pump is determined by the ratio between the shaft and the gear on the FI pump. As the 220 Pump does not have a separate piston for each cylinder, it will have to actuate more often than the 6-piston pump for the SL. I remember a write up at the introduction of the 230SL where the author referred to the difference in the FI pumps between the 127 and 127II engine being the drive speed. I may be able to find that.
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.../... I never heard back from the Mercedes factory in Stuttgart about whether they do engine rebuilds or swaps in any of their factories.../...
You can forget about the M-B factories... they of course produce the current, modern cars and cannot worry about 50 yr old stuff!
You should communicate with Mercedes Classic, they can help
https://www.mercedes-benz.com/en/mercedes-benz/classic/classic-service-parts/mercedes-benz-classic-world-wide/ (https://www.mercedes-benz.com/en/mercedes-benz/classic/classic-service-parts/mercedes-benz-classic-world-wide/)
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Ah, I think I know the difference. The 230SL has one lobe per cylinder on the camshaft inside the IP. The 220SE has two lobes for each of two cylinders inside the IP. So, in effect, it sprays twice per cycle rather than running twice as fast.