Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Research & Development => Topic started by: PagodaMafia on March 24, 2018, 00:53:19
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Hello, decided to spin up a fresh topic on my experience converting the terrible sluggish factory 4 spd to 6spd. The transmission from purchase from small boutique engineering firm in Poland that has been making a name for themselves in the European resto-modding scene. Without out doubt the most rewarding modification. The transmission totally transforms the cars driveability and higher speed cruising, not to mention the acceleration and torque. iIt actually feels like proper sports car. Anyway will post up some pics of the conversion and videos if anybody is interest?
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Anyway will post up some pics of the conversion and videos if anybody is interest?
Of course we would like to see some pics.
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Yes please. I’m in need of a new tranny sometime.
Thank you,
Kevin
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hi,
if you like to order one, please ride here k-max@live.de
thanks
tom
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMRBItafryM
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What is the cost? Are there modifications that need to be made or does it drop right in? Does the company have to do the change out or can the owner do the work?
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hi,
if you like to order one, please ride here k-max@live.de
thanks
tom
In the Wanted to Buy forum you claimed that 312 of your transmissions are installed in Pagodas.
Thus, let me repeat my questions here:
Where are these Pagodas located? Can you provide some proof for your claims?
How many are driving around in the USA? Can one contact a few dozen of these 312 Pagoda owners and ask them how satisfied they are, what problems they encountered during installation (if any), any subsequent repairs, etc, etc. ?
Otherwise all your claims remain virtual and not substantive.
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Hi Gentleman sorry for my late response. My 3 month old daugther has been keeping me busy. My little 280 sl is located in Sydney. My mechanic Alex is brillant had it installed in 2 days. That said the kit was professionally put together. I have heaps of pics can some tell me if i am allowed to post links to google photos. The guys at anna tom are amazing... not at all "virtual" and extremely professional and properly engineered no parts bin antics. Ken if you want Skype i can go and visit Alex and you can ask him stuff. Again not sure if it is forum policy ??
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See link i posted on offical w113 forum google group. https://plus.google.com/114683331210504169942/posts/TyY57Eo4Few
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I went to the photo link but only 4 pictures appear. The other photos are black screens. Your carpet shifter cutout indicates an automatic trans previously. Good to hear about your positive results.
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Hi doitwright. Again family have been keeping me busy. Try to look at the pics again they are all on google drive and high res so if you on slower internet connection it might black out while it down loads
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I agree with Frank. We need to establish some credibility on this tyranny conversion. If it's phenomenal then 100's will sell overnight. Thanks.
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Unless there's a substantial gear ratio change in 1st, 2nd, and third gear, I'm having a difficult time imagining how the same car with all other parts being the same, can suddenly transform into a cafe racer just by changing the transmission. What's the final drive ratio in 6th gear? And further to that, how is the MB 4 speed trans is sluggish? Are you referring to the auto trans - I could agree to that to some degree? You only have about 175 HP to work with so even on a good day, regardless of how you chop it up, you still have the same old salad.
Mr. Mafia? What's the rear axle ratio in your car right now? This is where performance comes from and 5 or 6 speed transmissions change that final drive to higher axle ratios inside the trans. I would not go higher than 3.27 and only in a 280SL with a 4 speed gear box. If you can keep your final drive ratio at or above 3.27 then it should be OK. This would indicate to me that your six speed is a close ratio gear box in 5th and 6th gears, or that 5th is 1:1 and 6th is overdrive.
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I am with the Benz Dr, here on this subject. (probably because we are both naturally "Doubting Thomases"). An optimum transmission "tuning" is done together with the engine power curves.
Ideally, you would reach a "shift-up" point when engine rpm reaches the hp max point. After upshift, engine rpm ideally should drop to the max torque point.
This way, you will have optimum engine performance in every gear. Of course, you can add an "overdrive" with a ratio that allows you to just hold your speed somewhat, which means it will drop engine rpm to somewhere below max torque.
The "wider" the power band of the motor is, the less gears you would need. For a narrow power band, you need more gears. Considering that our Pagodas were originally designed when the emission and compliance bureaucrats in the governments weren't all that abundant, I think our cars are doing pretty well the way they are. But if somebody comes up with a set-up that will allow him to beat a Porsche GT3 on the track - more power to them (punt intended)! 8) 8)
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I found this info, which I beleive is the tranny discussed: https://oldtimer-ersatzteile24.de/6-speed-gearbox-for-Mercedes-230SL-W113-Pagode
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Jowe, that is definitely the transmission from Anna Thom.
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I understand Benz Dr. comments. I have a rebuilt stock manual transmission and 3,27 rear end. They seem perfectly mated and I enjoy the car at in all gears. I can see where some improvement could be had with closer gear ratio changes. While my shift bushings are new the gear shifting experience is good for a 50 year old car. I can see where a more precise shift mechanism and closer gear ratios would be nice to have. I like my setup and don't think I'll change my mind.
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Any major modifications required?
Driveshaft shortening?
Tunnel enlargement?
Cutting/welding, etc.?
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Drive shaft would very likely need to be shorter but maybe that's part of the kit.
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Great idea. I am restoring a 1970 280SL. I was looking into some transmission upgrade. This seems to be what I am looking for. Please provide us with the information about the firm that provides the 6 Speed conversion.
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I am not opposing to upgrade to a 5 or 6 speed transmission, however, I modified my rear end to 3.27 about 10 years ago and I am very happy with that.
My 280 SL with the manual 4 speed and this rear end is not sluggish at all. At 3500 rpm I am cruising at 75 mph and if I need to accelerate to a higher speed, it really goes very rapidly to 80mph or higher.
For me this is a perfect set up.
Best, Urban
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Seems a 6-speed is overkill.
A Getrag 265 with a mechanical speedo would be WAY cheaper.
Even if you had to have it rebuilt by say...Metric Mechanic for $3200 USD, can get a good core for less than $800USD.
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Are there people who have recently installed a modern gearbox (5 or 6 speed) And may I ask about your experiences?
And are there any modern low cost alternatives to the already described Getrag 265/5 gearbox?
I am looking forward to any tips / offers :)
Kind regards, Fred
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I thought the Getrag was the modern cheaper alternative. I fitted one and it was fantastic.
There is the ex President here, Ray Hays, who fitted a T5 Tremag i think it was called that may be the alternative.
Garry
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...T5 Tremag...
Tremec, which used to be Borg-Warner.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg-Warner_T-5_transmission
https://www.tremec.com/menu/t-5/
There's a lot of different models and it's been a robust tranny made for decades.
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Thanks Garry, may I ask you what happened with your Getrag?
Kind regards, Fred
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Dear Michael,
Thanks for the advice!
Kind regards, Fred
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Before I even considered going to a higher gear ratio in final drive, I did a bit of research.
A typical 4.5 sedan has about 230 - 240 HP and weighs about 3,800 lbs.
A 280SL weighs about 3,000 lbs and has about 175 HP.
The 4.5 sedan has a power to weight ratio of about 16 lbs per HP.
The 280SL has a power to weight ratio of about 17 lbs per HP.
Of course, torque plays a major factor here and that's where the 280SL rises above the rest for axle ratio changes.
Ideally, a final drive ratio of 3.46 is just about perfect for our cars as it gives you lower engine RPM's but is still in the torque band of the engine. Driving at speed, outside of the engine's designed torque band is probably not a good idea. Modern cars are designed to work that way but ours need RPM to perform properly. You can tweak the parameters of the original design but at some point, you will have modified the car so much that all of the original character is lost. Why own one if you don't like it in stock trim?
I actually did the 3.27 conversion in a 280SL probably 25 - 30 years ago and while it worked OK it was in auto and the transmission really groaned until the car started to move. From that early experience, I knew that a four-speed would handle the higher gearing OK but not an auto transmission. This has been my only recommendation ever since. If you do a lot of high-speed long-distance driving on expressways, this could be OK for you. Live in the mountains where you rarely go that fast and need torque to climb steep hills? Maybe not so much.
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Fred,
After fitting the Getrag to my 280 that was data carded for five speed but missing that gearbox, and using the Mark Bull conversion kit, ZF then announced that they were producing 250 new 5 speed gearboxes suitable for our cars at €7800 and i was able to get one of these new ones. I hate to think what the price is now if you can find one.
I put it aside in its box and when i sold that vehicle some time later i also sold the gear box with it to the new owner who i believe had it fitted. I don’t know what happened to the removed Getrag gearbox but do know the car with zf 5 speed gearbox fitted ended up in Sydney.
Garry
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...but ours need RPM to perform properly...
...and yet, Dan, the constant chatter to reduce RPMs!
My car does lovely and feels best on the highway at a rip-roaring 4000 RPM. Cannot hear a bloody thing, and I often wear earplugs (no kidding; I keep them in the car). It is what it is.
If I want supreme luxurious highway comfort, I'll take my daily driver...at the same 78MPH its lolly-gagging at a leisurely 2200 RPM. Different engine, different car, and different times...
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Hi all.
I have been looking on the internet and unless I am wrong, the same picture keeps appearing when looking for a 6 speed gearbox.
One for 7000 USD: http://www.2040-parts.com/new-6-speed-manual-transmission-gearbox-for-mercedes-230sl-250sl-280sl-pagoda-i1646448/
This one for 7500 EUR: https://oldtimer-ersatzteile24.de/6-speed-gearbox-for-Mercedes-230SL-W113-Pagode
And even on SLShop the same paicture appears: https://www.theslshop.com/parts-shop/mercedes-benz-w113-sl-w111-4-5-speed-to-six-speed-manual-gearbox.html for 7850 Pnds.
According to SLS it is an Getrag. But they are currently named Magna PT.
Does anybody have any experience or even know what brand this gearbox is?
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Thanks Garry for your answer. Sorry for my late reply.
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Dear all,
My Pagode has been fitted with the 6 speed Anno Thom (Getrag) gearbox. This is to let you know my experiences.
I drive a silver 230SL. The car was restored in 1995 and later equipped with a 280 M130 engine. The body of the car has been restored to high standards and still looks great. The technical bits were not done right. The car was driven for a few years and then stored in a very dry garage and was driven a few miles on average each year.
When I bought the car, I was not really impressed with the way it drove. Very high revs on the highway and irregular idle revs.
We decided to technically restore the car to its original but also make improvements to make it a real drivers' car. Van Dijk (ClassicSL) did a great job and replaced almost all technical parts, varying from everything made of rubber to a full rebuild of the back axle. So, now the car performed great. However, the highway revs still annoyed me.
Together with Van Dijk, we decided to replace the gearbox (that worked fine) with a 6 Speed Getrag gearbox, AKA Anna Thom.
The gearbox is a Gertrag Inline 6 speed gearbox that was adjusted to fit a 280SL/M130. When Van Dijk fitted the gearbox, we found out that the gearbox did not fit the tunnel, which needed some adjustments. The rear drive shaft also needed to be replaced, so the installation was not as effortless as we hoped for. However, the result is phenomenal. The gearbox als clutch feel like new (which they are) and the car handles great. The gearbox shifts very short and accurate, the clutch is like a new car and it totally transforms the car.
In the end, we spent more than 20K EUR on the technical restorations and an additional 10K EUR on the gearbox and necessary adjustments. As a result, the car drives great. Much better than the 5 speed Getrag that I drove..
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Thanks for the update Fred, that is good to know.
(On my US spec automatic, with a 4.08 rear differential, I had it replaced with a 3.69 to address the high revs on the highway. It also made a big positive difference.)
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...and yet, Dan, the constant chatter to reduce RPMs!
My car does lovely and feels best on the highway at a rip-roaring 4000 RPM. Cannot hear a bloody thing, and I often wear earplugs (no kidding; I keep them in the car). It is what it is.
If I want supreme luxurious highway comfort, I'll take my daily driver...at the same 78MPH its lolly-gagging at a leisurely 2200 RPM. Different engine, different car, and different times...
You've made my point without my having to even make it. :)
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Hi Fred! Thank you very much for sharing your experience. Do you know the type of the 6 Speed Getrag what is used by Anna Thom?