Pagoda SL Group

W113 Pagoda SL Group => Body, interior, paint, chrome, and cosmetic items => Topic started by: johnk on June 06, 2017, 02:26:26

Title: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on June 06, 2017, 02:26:26
And I couldn't be more excited!

The under body is very solid and it will be so much easier to work on now. Hope to have it blasted/stripped and primed in two weeks. Spend the summer sorting and cleaning parts for coating, finish paint this late fall, and spend two years putting it all back together again..... I hope!
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: kampala on June 06, 2017, 11:48:10
Alright, I will admit - You made me look.   Glad to see it was a good kind of "rolled"

Keep sending updates.   Looks like you got the space for this major undertaking.   

Enjoy and best of luck,
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on June 07, 2017, 02:27:25
Thanks Oz.

Yes my brother tore down and rebuilt in his back yard a 1865 slate-roofed barn so we could restore cars when we get close to retirement like we did when we were in school. He stocked it with all of the used tools we could need over the years. My wife is happy because the mess is in his barn rather than our garage.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: IXLR8 on July 12, 2017, 04:23:02
Hi-

I'm no expert on this, but is there a risk of bending the structure of the body with this type of roller?

Many times I've seen pictures of cars on the roller with a brace fitted/welded across the top of the door opening to maintain dimension.

the other Joe

Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on July 13, 2017, 03:38:34
Hi Other Joe,

Good question. I asked the same question of this site. Given that I am not doing any panel or structure replacement it was suggested that the door support jacks were not needed because the chassis is so light. I've had no problem so far but I must admit I was a bit nervous at first.

JohnK
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on March 21, 2018, 23:44:53
I haven't posted any progress on my restoration since last summer as there is nothing exciting to show about stripping down parts for coating as well as body work and primer blocking when you have no significant rust and panel repairs. But finally I have somethings to show that get me more motivated again.  I started powder coating this last weekend and its very easy and rewarding. I set up a make-shift spray booth for the powder shown below and have pulled my first parts out of the oven. Unfortunately as you can see in the pics the coating is too dull. The salesman at eastwood recommended I use the satin finish when I should have used the semi-gloss. Should be no problem to fix as there is a method to recote powder a second time.

The biggest time consumer with powder coating is the sandblasting so I cheated and took all of my large suspensiona and other parts to a blaster who did them all for $50 in an afternoon. Wife permitting I hope to finish most all of the powder coating this weekend and will post pics of how they look with the correct semi-gloss finish.

I posted a copy of my aluminum and pot finishing (except the valve cover) a few weeks ago under a different post. I will post the valve cover when its done hopefully with no sand in the baffles. I bought a new gun for my blast cabinet that hopefully will enable me to use walnut shells and get a little shinier finish that I did with just glass beads on the other parts.

Having fun now

John
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: neelyrc on March 22, 2018, 01:08:14
Thanks for sharing John.  The quality looks outstanding.  :) Keep us posted.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: doitwright on March 22, 2018, 04:15:52
Do you plan to remove the dull powder coating or refinish over the existing? I wonder how much of a challenge you will have to remove the powder coating?
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on March 22, 2018, 17:39:15
I am a one week internet expert in powder coating so far but from what I understand you can apply one second coat to powder coating by heating it in the oven and then spraying the second coat on the piece while its still warm. That is how they apply a clear powder coat over a base coat or even making a pearl or chrome-like finish. I will let you know how it works out.

I am very particular in following the directions regarding cleaning, etching, pre-heating all types of metal not just alloys or cast, and not touching them with your hands before baking. It actually very fun because you get a quick satisfaction pulling the like-new parts out of the oven.

I also found out that Eastwood has a filler made specifically for powder coating. Very helpful already as I dented my air cleaner canister when taking it to get blasted. I will let you know how that works as well.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on April 01, 2018, 17:17:46
I finished most of what I plan on powder coating yesterday. There are a few parts that didn't turn out as good as the rest as I was learning this fairly simple process. I can strip and recoat them later if I don't like how they look in the assembly process. With some pieces like the lower suspension A frames it can be difficult to attract the powder to small cracks and corners. Extensive spraying to cover the corners and cracks can end up with uneven build up on the areas that attract the powder easily. If that happens just brush off the areas with the excess powder and lightly respray before baking.

I learned a few other tricks in the process that I will be happy to share if anyone else is interested in doing their own powder coating. I am very pleased with the results and enjoyed the process much more than painting.

The subframe is too big for my blast cabinet and oven so I am dropping that off at a real powder coating shop. I will come back later and use chassis black on the components that can't be powder coated. With warm weather coming its time to shift my attention back to getting the body ready for paint.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: 450sl on April 02, 2018, 10:23:42
Hij John,
Great job; keep us informed of the progression.
Could you give more info please about the Filler you used ?
Mark

Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on April 02, 2018, 13:43:27
I used Alvin Lab-Metal sold by Eastwood in their powder coating section. (lucky for me, one of Eastwood's two retail stores in the US is 15 minutes from my office). The powder coat stuck right to the material without any pre-heating. If you are going to try it make sure you also buy their Lab-Solvent to thin the filler before application. The filler doesn't spread smoothly without it making it harder to get the feathered-in finish you need.

https://www.eastwood.com/lab-metal-24-oz.html
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Shvegel on April 02, 2018, 14:12:06
Looking good John. 
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: 450sl on April 03, 2018, 06:39:36
Thanks for the link John; now looking for a European alternative for the Alvin Lab-metal...there seems to be a Alvin-dealer in the UK but they dont sell it to the continent...
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on September 16, 2018, 02:44:13
I haven't posted my progress for a while. Most of the summer was spent boating and just getting the car primered and final block sanded. My goal is the get the final color shot in about three weeks. This weeks I hope to finish the underside, next week final sand of primer, build the paint booth the week after than and then spray.

A few small items while stripping the top this summer I decided to remove the rear window seal. Certainly was glad I did as I found rust starting to have its way with my top under the seal.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on September 16, 2018, 03:35:41
I spent a good bit of time rubbing my Pagoda's belly today getting it ready for the the correct color PPG primer and clear coat this week. I wen though every seam and crack looking for any potential rust and when I found any i stripped the undercoating back to clean paint, sandblasted. applied metal conditioner and either applied POR 15 or primer on the repair area. All seam sealer should be applied by tomorrow.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on September 16, 2018, 04:06:00
One bad spot that had me procrastinating for a while on how to fix it. Its heavily pitted inside where the soft top compartment drain tube empties out water into the rear portion of rocker panel on passengetr side.  Thanks  to ScottsCorvette's detail repair photo's I now know how to repair this section, starting with removing a portion of the crossmember under the passenger seat.

I can do all of the cutting and fitting but I may have someone else do the MIG welding. Not my MIG welding can be trusted enough yet for structurall welding. It may have to wait until after I finish painting the body as I am fraid it will take much more time than I would guess.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on September 23, 2018, 23:23:22
Shvegel reminded me about painting the firewall plugs so I ordered them last week from K&K manufacturing.

Look at what the surpise the put in the box! Im going to order something else now.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on September 24, 2018, 00:45:53
Thanks to the detailed steps and photos' posted by ScotCorvette I was able to see how to attack my dreaded cancer section in the rear of the left rocker rail caused by the drainage from the soft top. I was able to get access to the rusted area by cutting out a section of the cross member under the passengers seat, a portion of the inner door post and then remove a secion of the frame rail that goes from the rocker rail back and over the rear axle. I was a little nervous at first but I took it slow making sure I cut too little each time rather than too much.

As you can see below the inner wall of the rocker rail is pretty rusted. Inside the rail is very solid including the jack support mount so I will be able to get away with just replacing about on foot of the inner pannel. I pushed the car outside and sandlblasted most of the rust and scale off the inside and then treated it to a generous helping of POR 15. The metal of the rocker rail seemed to measure 15 guage. I couldn't find any 15 guage metal so I ordered 16 guage online. If I can find 15 guage before the 16 arrives I will use that. I have a short time frame to get this car painted before the weather starts to turn in October.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on September 24, 2018, 01:08:06
While waiting for the 16 guage metal to arrive I started to fit the frame repair panet. What a bugger getting that in there whithout having to cut too much surrounding metal out of the way. Scottcorvette showed how he had to make special provisions because his repair pannel was not deep enough to extend all the way to inner fender well. Mine looked deep enough but just to be sure I did not cut the original pannel back all the way to the fender well. I'm glad I did because when I finally was abe to get the repair panel in place I found it to be about a half inch short. Instead of having to cut and widen my repair panel, I will just cut the spott weld lip off and weld to the reamining section of the old panel left below. Thankyou Scott. You have saved me so much time and effort.

Given that I count beans for a living and don't have the skills of and experianced welder I am going to lap weld or cut holes to spot weld these frame sections. It seems that is the way to go given that all of the frame sections are lapped and spot welded in the factory. I woudl rather swallow my pride and use a little bondo to make the visable joints look smooth rather than worrying about my but welds later on.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 04, 2018, 02:20:43
So my chasis is finally whole again! Started to get the knack of Mig Welding. My welds aren't pretty but I made sure they are all very strong. I didn't gring down the cross member weld to be flush as I wanted to leave it with the maximm sgtrengh given that its a bit weld on a frame section.

Now I get back to the final wet sanding.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 14, 2018, 02:41:43
So the body work is all done and I am building the paint booth now. Total cost of about $500 incuding lights, fans, lumber and filters. If anyone wants spray booth filters I have 16 of them left. Had to buy 20 just to get 4 intake filters. We hope to reuse the booth when my brother (who owns this barn, retires in a few years and starts to restore cars for a hobby).

Problem is we are out of 70 degree weather here now. I hope to be able to use a propane heater to bring the barn above 70 to paint in a few weeks. If the spray booth works it should be safe to heat outside the booth, or atleast before and after I spray.

Lighting is my biggest concern. I am using bright florescent strips but have to keep them outside the boothshining through the clear plastic  for safety purposes. I do have some LED lights to add inside the booth. Hope to get the plastic up tomorrow and finish the lighting so I can try it all out.

For the fans I bought 8 20 inch fans from Walmart.com delivered to my house in two days for $16.66 US each. I am sure the delivery cost them more than $16.66 each. I truly don't understand this new online world. I actually liked going to Sears.

Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 22, 2018, 02:19:42
Paint booth is just about done. Taking longer than I thought to figure out the lighting. The filters don’t allow as much air blow in as I expected. I am hoping that when I finish the exhaust fans they will help pull more air through. The booth. If not I may need to add a larger intake fan.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Bonnyboy on October 22, 2018, 03:45:01
Careful heating with propane - my experience is that they introduce lots of moisture into the air which you don't want if you are spraying.  Unless you have an airdryer. 
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 22, 2018, 17:20:29
Careful heating with propane - my experience is that they introduce lots of moisture into the air which you don't want if you are spraying.  Unless you have an airdryer.

Good point thank you. I do have a separator and a dryer which I was debating if its worth it. I will be spraying the less conspicuous areas first that I can verify  if there will be any moisture problems.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Pinder on October 27, 2018, 20:06:02
John, Sounds like you are having fun with the paint part of this.

I am by no means professional at painting. I painted two Pagodas using single stage paint. Here are some things I learnt.

1. If I did it again I would use Base coat and clear like you are doing. I thought the single stage would be easier but I  think back and I would say it is not.
2. Definitely get the temp correct 70 degrees). It makes all the difference.
3. Stick the the flash times  (10 to 12 mins). (depends on your instructions follow them. This is important so that successive layer meld  together. I think this is important when you wet sand and buff. This may be less of a problem with Clear coat but with single stage where the color you are wet sanding and buffing, I noticed its possible to get a ever so slight shade difference on areas are where i wet sanded past the top coat. Its only visible with the right light conditions such as using an led light but I noticed it and can only think that maybe the flash time was too long.
4. If you get any runs in the clear coat do not panic just keep going. Minor runs can be wet sanded out  so can any orange peel and so can any insects or dust particles. I tried to build a spray booth then just gave up on it. I sprayed in my garage , cleaning floor and mopping floor down. I covered things around the garage with drop cloths used some box fans taped to windows as extractor fans
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 28, 2018, 03:47:23
Thanks again Pinder

Even though its 49 degrees out it looks like I can get the metal temp up to 70 degress now using three heaters including a small one in the booth. Standox quotes its dry time at 68 degrees so I am shooting for 68 to 70. I finished my booth enough to test today and its currently blowing more air in than it sucks out, which meants it forces overspray out the cracks  towards the heaters and possibly leaves too much overspray inside the booth to leave lights inside. I am adding a large floor fan to the exhaust tomorrow to hopefully get an even flow. If I was painting in warm weather with the barn doors open I wouldn't care about overspray being pushed out the cracks. Now I am less worried about the dust in the booth and more concerned about overspray outside the booth requiring me to keep the heat off while spraying.

Buffing through more than a coat of the clear should not leave any rings, but I will definately have rings if I buff down to the thin metalic base coats. Hense the reason for going with four quarts of clear. I buffed enough clear over color coats back in the days of laquer to know the risk of buffing to far. I won't sand the edges, just up to them, and my buffer is a professional orbital model that stops spinning if you put pressure on a corner. I just know though that I can make mistakes not haveing done this for thirty years, and I don't want any chance of having to touch up the color now or later.

I also did find out that is recommended to add hardner to the paint used in the engine bay for durability purposes. The correct PPG paint for the trunk also uses hardner for the same purpose.

I didn't know before that the flash times between clear coats affects long-time adhesion. I need to call dupont on that as I may need to leave the heaters off too long betwen coats for that.

I guess I could always consder the water base option?
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Pinder on October 28, 2018, 17:48:49
John,

If you are using Acrylic Ureathane (AU) which I think you are then the Hardner is required. Infact when you mix it it will b something like 3 parts paint 1 part hardener and a bit of thinner if required (a small dash). This paint system uses the catalyst to do the drying. It wont dry properly without it. Just read there data sheet. Also with most hardeners they have Isocynites in them. Please use a Good Mask / respirator.  Issued a 3M full face mask with carbon filters.

The flash time is very important if you go beyond the flash time adhesion may be affected.

I dont know if your car is Metalic color or not. Both the ones I painted was solid color which meant I divided the spraying . To keep Solvents and spray down I did sections, like Frame one day  doors hood and trunk another and roof on a different day. Its more work cleaning gun etc but it kept the spray down. Not sure this is an option for you depends on color.

Now when it came to wetsanding the clear and buffing I also used the random orbit buffer with foam pads on the first car. This took some work to get a good shine. I find that using an orbital buffer with a wool pad is so much quicker. You will see swirl marks / halo but that can them be fixed with the random orbit polisher.





Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 28, 2018, 22:50:21
 Bottom side after steam
Cleaning. You can see the color of the original schutz
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 28, 2018, 22:53:51
This is after I applied the 3m beige schutz. The gray primer is PPG dp40 covered in a Matt clear.  Ppg wanted big dollars for the Matt clear but my dupont dealer has a Matt clear for $50 bucks including the activator.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 28, 2018, 22:59:10
Waalaa! 

This is after spraying “Quazmoline” 2k paint. Seals up the schutz real nice to keep it clean. 

Kinda looks pumpkin colored.  Not real pretty but as close as I can get it to original. 

Painting the trunk is next.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 28, 2018, 23:13:07
I should have no problem doing the engine compartment, door bottoms and inside edge, and dash next weekend.  But I may need to wait for warmer weather to do the body.  My booth seems to do great with keeping overspray in and its out but I can still smell the thinners outside the booth.  As such I’m not comfortable leaving the heat on while spraying, which doesn’t allow me to complete all Coates within the required respray time.  I will see if I can rent some heaters that don’t use an open flame.

Other option is to put a hole in the wall with an 8 inch vent connecting to my torpedo heater outside. It will be running on fresh air. Have
To think about that one.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Pinder on October 29, 2018, 17:33:26
looking really nice.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 29, 2018, 23:39:30
Thanks Pinder. Glad you gave me a heads up on the dry time between coats. I didn't realize that would cause an adhesion problem.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 30, 2018, 23:33:20
Thanks Pinder. Glad you gave me a heads up on the dry time between coats. I didn't realize that would cause an adhesion problem.

I called Axalta today and asked if I would have adhesion problems if I can't spray between a half hour to hour between coats. They said I shouldn't have a problem with adhesion. They were more concerned that my kerosene heater doesn't cause residue on the paint. My guess is the short time between coats is more of a minimum flash off time for the paint to cure properly. Axalta is now selling paint that can be sprayed continuously without any set up time in between coats to get jobs out the door quicker. Another reason for a short respray cycle may be to get the next coat to stick better without runs. I would always spray and light tack coat first when spraying enamel to give the heavier coats something to stick to without runs.

Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on April 07, 2019, 02:16:26
Well lets just say its been a long winter but I finally have progress to post. I sprayed the car this week and I am extremely happy how the home-made booth worked out. Very little dust in the paint even though the high-solids clear took about three hours before it became tack-free. Also to get high-solids to atomize evenly without much orange peal you have to blow a lot of overspray, which my booth cleared out well within the 3 minute standard I read about for a decent spray booth. I had to add a fifth intake fan to get it to do so. 8 total 20 inch household which aren't very effective plus my two large shop fans.

I used Standox which is the original manufacturer for Beige Gray on our cars. I tried the much less expensive Nason just for my test panels and the color was off.

The trick I learned to spray the high-solids clear successfully was to heat the paint and hardener to 90+ degrees before I sprayed to make it flow easier. I was painting at 70 degrees temperature in the barn. I heated the paint safely in a 5 gallon bucket of water warmed by a small heater meant for keeping livestock water warm.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on April 07, 2019, 02:29:31
Its suppose to be 70 in Cleveland tomorrow so I am hoping to roll the car outside finally and spray the black parts that I can not powder coat. I am puzzled a bit at it appears that some parts should be more of a satin finish such as the steering column where parts on the front suspension are more semigloss. Of course getting the colors to match the finish you want can be a problem in itself. Below is the section of the trunk floor I replaced sprayed in PPG 164 dark grey (at $90 a quart - gulp). Its much shinier than I like, perhaps I put in on to thick on the wheel well.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on April 07, 2019, 02:33:14
oops pic is below. Also to further fuel the debate of is it dark gray or is black, the dark gray I sprayed looks identical to what I powder-coated in black. I will know more tomorrow when I start to spray the suspension parts where I am using a heavy duty ceramic black.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on April 07, 2019, 02:53:33
I am providing the below pics for those that haven't seen how the hub bap stencils work. I took one of our other members advice and first sprayed the hub caps with an etching primer that sticks to the metal better than the basecoat. I previously tried it in my old hub caps and it was very hard to scratch off. I didn't take picture of the final hub caps as it was late when I got that far but I will take some and post them tomorrow. I first painted my old hub caps back in November thinking they looked great despite my son pointing out how bad the old chrome looked against the new paint. Taking his advice I looked at rebuffing and replating the old caps and ended up buying new chrome hub caps for about the same price from the classic center - $1300. I can't believe how much better they look than my old ones.

I found a small touch up gun at a low pressure was much easier to get in the corners of the star. I also ended up pulling the star stencil off when I sprayed the clear in order to get even applications in the corners without causing runs or solvent pop. I didn't do that on my old hub caps and I have a number of runs to scrape off of them.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: cfm65@me.com on April 07, 2019, 09:26:12
Hi John,
I get goose bump and the cold shivers every time I see your post heading, ‘I JUST ROLLED MY PAGODA LAST NIGHT’

And then again, I get goose bumps and warm shivers every time I look at your progress.

Congrats on a job WELL DONE.
Regards
Chris
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on April 07, 2019, 12:57:48
Thanks Chris. You just made my day!
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: cfm65@me.com on April 07, 2019, 18:55:26
👍👍
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: kampala on April 07, 2019, 19:30:16
Very nice progress.  Looks fantastic.  Is that color 726 or 728?

Keep at it.

Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on April 08, 2019, 00:56:34
728. It looks much darker than it really is in the booth. Below is a pic today out in the sun.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on April 08, 2019, 01:16:50
The finished hub caps
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on May 16, 2019, 03:10:41
Haven’t been able to do much with the car this last month but I got my chrome back yesterday. I used Custom Chrome Plating here in Grafton Ohio. They are used by high end restorers accross the country yet their prices were much cheaper than quotes from other shops recommended on our site. The finish is perfect and the shine is very deep. Highly recommend their work.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: ja17 on May 16, 2019, 06:51:09
Looks great John !
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on May 16, 2019, 11:25:30
Thanks Joe!
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 15, 2019, 01:28:34
Its been a while since I posted any update. Its been a summer of boating, honey doo's and refinishing individual parts. I did get most of the front suspension put together though. Below I m finally putting the engine compartment together. Very satisfying and fun! Its great to finally be picking parts up off of the floor rather than putting new ones down.

Oh - the fenders looked whited-out because they are covered by shipping foam wrap.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 15, 2019, 01:36:03
I can't tell you how much easier it is working under the dash and around the engine compartment with the car on a rotisserie. I pulled the dash apart before it was on the rotisserie which meant it was all done on my back.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 15, 2019, 01:54:20
sorry the above pic should have been rotated to show that the car is actually on its side.

Below shows a trick I learned at RM Restoration this summer as part of meeting with the clans. I was very worried before about how I would put the car back together without scratching it. Wrapping the car in shipping foam wrap works great.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 15, 2019, 02:05:29
I had a real hard time with my trunk paint getting it to the right level of satin finish, and at $90 a pint plus hardener for the correct PPG gray it was very expensive. In the mean time I used Eastwood's ceramic satin Chassie Black on my gas tank and it seemed to be right on, simple and a quarter of the price. I used it on other undercarriage parts as well.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 15, 2019, 02:24:56
As I am cleaning over spray off my wire harness and other parts I am reminded why we take the time to primer parts like the gas tank before the topcoat.  Topcoat over spray comes off easily with a little lacquer thinner but primer requires a lot more effort to remove.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 15, 2019, 02:38:18
After cleaning my aluminum last year I coated it with high-temp satin clear Nyalic, but it was very expensive at over $20 a can. For my Cadmium I laid it out and sprayed it with VHT's high temp satin clear which is available at Autozone for $10 a can.

Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 15, 2019, 02:43:39
after spraying
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Garry on October 15, 2019, 05:44:24
Am i reading this right.
You have given the cad plating a high temp clear coat after the plating process was done?
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 15, 2019, 11:01:38
Yes to protect the yellow cad from wearing away over time.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 27, 2019, 12:28:27
The rotisserie is making the re-assembly so much easier.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 28, 2019, 02:58:35
I sandblasted My exhaust manifolds let them sit and rest remover for a week and coded them with ceracote. Ceracote is a commercial ceramic based coating specifically designed for exhausts and high heat application up to 1800 degrees. A local shop uses it for OEM automotive applications.

You only heat it before you spray but not after. I plan on doing my whole exhaust in black but I will have to heat it in my grill. My wife will love that !
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 28, 2019, 03:03:44
Sorry For some reason it won’t let me upload pictures of the manifolds
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Peter van Es on October 28, 2019, 15:46:57
They might be too big. Please scale them down...
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 28, 2019, 20:28:48
You are probably correct on that Peter. I used the same camera settings, well I thought I did. Looking now to see if I have the software to scale it down.

John
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: dirkbalter on October 28, 2019, 23:05:41
You are probably correct on that Peter. I used the same camera settings, well I thought I did. Looking now to see if I have the software to scale it down.

John

John,
I had the same issue. You can use Microsoft -Paint which you likely have.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 29, 2019, 02:28:17
Thanks Dirk. I will give it a try.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Peter van Es on October 29, 2019, 11:04:34
Another trick, if you've made the picture on a mobile phone, is to e-mail the photograph to yourself.

The e-mail package will offer to scale it down for you.

Then you can upload the mailed - and scaled down - photograph.

Peter
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: mrfatboy on October 29, 2019, 11:52:46
I use this software to resize pictures. Easy to use and does bulk processing.   This is for the PC.

http://m.majorgeeks.com/files/details/photo_magician.html
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 29, 2019, 15:04:45
I tried emailing and texting the pics to myself and for some reason it’s accepting them as is and not giving me the option to resize.  I will try the major geeks software. I tried the “file compression” app but for some reason it can’t find my pictures.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: pj on October 30, 2019, 10:09:28
Hello John
I recommend IrfanView. It's the obvious website, that is, irfanview dot com. Download the free trial version first. Resize is under the "Image..." menu. I have been using it for 20 years, so I paid the guy some money once.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Peter van Es on October 30, 2019, 10:52:38
I've made some changes so the website should accept bigger files now... and then scale them down.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 30, 2019, 19:47:43
Let’s see if this goes through now
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 30, 2019, 19:48:27
it worked Peter Thanks!
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on November 06, 2019, 23:53:47
So ordered a new clutch master cylinder and it doesn’t have the bleeder nozzle (assuming that’s is what it is) on the side like the old one.  Anyone know if I will have a problem bleeding the master cylinder without one?
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on November 06, 2019, 23:57:03
Ok looks like I should have gone back and taken a better picture of the new one but needless to say it doesn’t have a bleeder nozzle on it. Same with any new one I find online.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Charles 230SL on November 07, 2019, 00:32:15
hhmm, I've never used (or noticed) the bleeder on the clutch master cylinder. I've always bled the clutch using the bleeder on the slave cylinder.
I just noticed that the 230sl and 250sl clutch master cylinders advertised by Bud's both have bleeders whereas the one for the 280sl doesn't. Any chance someone in the past fitted a 230/250 master cylinder?

 https://www.budsbenz.com/catalog/230-250-280-sl/h-transmission-clutch
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on November 07, 2019, 02:30:34
hhmm, I've never used (or noticed) the bleeder on the clutch master cylinder. I've always bled the clutch using the bleeder on the slave cylinder.
I just noticed that the 230sl and 250sl clutch master cylinders advertised by Bud's both have bleeders whereas the one for the 280sl doesn't. Any chance someone in the past fitted a 230/250 master cylinder?

 https://www.budsbenz.com/catalog/230-250-280-sl/h-transmission-clutch

You are right Charles that mine is probably from 250 seeing that reference, but you also answered my question at the same time. I will bleed the master through the slave valve.

Thanks!
john
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Benz Dr. on November 07, 2019, 02:52:56
There are three different MC for our vintage of cars with hydraulic clutch. They have different inlet and outlet thread sizes which can make matching up what you have a bit of a challenge. If you order like for like you should be OK. I found the unit without a bleeder to be the wrong one and the brake fluid pipes wouldn't fit on both ends, or maybe it was just one end but I ended up having to get the right one to make it all work.   
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on November 07, 2019, 15:00:45
Good points Dan thank you. I will try it this weekend if the fittings don't line up I will consider the 250 version or changing the fittings.

John
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: lreppond on November 07, 2019, 15:27:42
I’ve thoroughly enjoyed this particular thread.  First of all, I’m in total awe.  This is a big project yet the results are absolutely breath taking and highly informative to boot.  Your color choice is my favorite of all the colors offered by MB back in the day.  It’s showy yet elegant and reserved and shows off the cars bright work perfectly.  I’ll be interested in seeing what interior colors you end up going with. 

Thanks so much for sharing your journey with this restoration with all of us. 
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on November 08, 2019, 02:31:58
I’ve thoroughly enjoyed this particular thread.  First of all, I’m in total awe.  This is a big project yet the results are absolutely breath taking and highly informative to boot.  Your color choice is my favorite of all the colors offered by MB back in the day.  It’s showy yet elegant and reserved and shows off the cars bright work perfectly.  I’ll be interested in seeing what interior colors you end up going with. 

Thanks so much for sharing your journey with this restoration with all of us.

Irrepond, You just made my month thank you! i will make sure I post more pics as I go forward.

Below are pics of Fernando Castanfeira's car that is the model for my colors. Fernando has been super helpful in helping me get my colors right, and sent me these pics just yesterday helping to make sure I order the right leather color.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on November 08, 2019, 03:07:54
So my wiper linkage has been my hold up the last two weeks. It was rusted so when I pulled it apart I had to strip and soak the rust off - no problem. I then set up an electroplating system to replate the previously rusted areas. It plated great but for some reason the plastic grommets melted a bit in the process and now the linkage turns harder than I would expect. As soon as my wiper motor gets back from Classic Wiper for a rebuild I will install the linkage and motor and make sure it works before I finish the dash.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: JamesL on November 09, 2019, 11:30:10
Thats a lovely colour combo - that would be on my list were i starting from scratch
Looks like it's on bigger wheels though that may be the effect of the witewalls
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: lreppond on November 09, 2019, 14:10:27
Oh man, you’re definitely on the right track. I’ve seen a 3.5 convertible in this same paint with parchment interior.  It’s pure Hollywood!   Although it’s very eye catching, there’s also something really restrained too.  It’s the perfect choices IMHO. 
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on November 11, 2019, 02:56:30
So I learned  new trick from Shvegel recently. I needed to replace my gas line grommets and I could only find 2 online. There is actually about ten of these in the car for different uses. He told me to by a solid rubber line online cut it to length and drill a hole in the center.

Works great and cost less than ten bucks  for the rubber!

John
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: kampala on November 11, 2019, 04:59:45
The 728 color you have chosen is also the original color of my 280.  Mine is in epoxy primer at the moment after stripping to bare metal waiting to get its 728 back. A Previous owner had the car painted ivory.   

As far as I know, there are now at least 6 pagodas within our group with this color. I have seen 5 of them (including mine) first hand:

Drewtee (UK] - seen at our European events
Kemal (UK) - seen at our European events
Donati (California) - drove to Arroyo Grande  (from Los Angles) to meet Donati.
Hauser (Florida) - saw this car at our Virginia Event when Gernold brought it. 

Kampala - me - (car lives in California)
Johnk - you - (Ohio)

Any others?





Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: mclewis on November 11, 2019, 16:05:37
I also have a 728 car, with brown interior and soft top.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on November 11, 2019, 20:19:52
The 728 color you have chosen is also the original color of my 280.  Mine is in epoxy primer at the moment after stripping to bare metal waiting to get its 728 back. A Previous owner had the car painted ivory.   

As far as I know, there are now at least 6 pagodas within our group with this color. I have seen 5 of them (including mine) first hand:

Drewtee (UK] - seen at our European events
Kemal (UK) - seen at our European events
Donati (California) - drove to Arroyo Grande  (from Los Angles) to meet Donati.
Hauser (Florida) - saw this car at our Virginia Event when Gernold brought it. 

Kampala - me - (car lives in California)
Johnk - you - (Ohio)

Any others?

Not that I am aware of. Houser’s is the one I posted above and he is the one helping me on it. I first saw it at the Virginia event.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on November 12, 2019, 23:52:40
After reading Dr Benz’s helpful email above I priced the clutch master sleeve for a 250 rather than a 280. The only price I could find from our normal supplier was $250, which convinced me to try my old one again first (it had a slight leak).

For the hell of it I jut googled the part and found Rockauto has it for $106 or a close out version by American Remanufacturers for $7.99!

I ordered the 7.99 version feeling lucky. We will see.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: mbzse on November 13, 2019, 00:56:06
Quote from: johnk
.../...clutch master sleeve for a 250 rather than a 280.../...
The clutch hydraulic system is different on a 250SL compared to a 280SL.
This is due to the change over to a diaphragm type clutch mechanism on the M130 engine.
The dia for the master and the slave cylinders should be a match to each other, as follows:
230/250 SL clutch master cylinders share the same bore (Ø23.81mm) but come with different part numbers. The slave cylinder is the same for both (Ø25.4mm).
280SL master cylinder is Ø19.05mm bore and slave cylinder Ø23.81mm.

It is not trivial, and as DanC mentions, complicated by use of M12 or M14 fine pitch thread pipe connections.  The SLS website has a useful table; see Section 29.i
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on November 13, 2019, 03:21:27
The clutch hydraulic system is different on a 250SL compared to a 280SL.
This is due to the change over to a diaphragm type clutch mechanism on the M130 engine.
The dia for the master and the slave cylinders should be a match to each other, as follows:
230/250 SL clutch master cylinders share the same bore (Ø23.81mm) but come with different part numbers. The slave cylinder is the same for both (Ø25.4mm).
280SL master cylinder is Ø19.05mm bore and slave cylinder Ø23.81mm.

It is not trivial, and as DanC mentions, complicated by use of M12 or M14 fine pitch thread pipe connections.  The SLS website has a useful table; see Section 29.i

That's good to learn thank you. My fittings won't work with the 280 Master cylinder so I have to go with the 250. I am afraid now that the slave cylinder I ordered a couple years ago but didn't install yet wont work with the 250 master. I better dig up my old one and see if it works.

Gentlemen you saved me a lot of work and frustration again thank you!
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on November 21, 2019, 04:22:01
I decided to start installing the sound and heat barrier while waiting to get my wiper linkage fixed.  Although it seems to me that I should not be covering the transmission tunnel.  The tunnel already has the original fiber matting on it that the new material does not stick to well and I believe the carpeting on the tunnel gets glued on tight. I may pull that off and use it under the kinder seat.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: pj on November 21, 2019, 09:40:41
How come you decided not to remove the fibre matting over the transmission tunnel?
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Pawel66 on November 21, 2019, 10:25:02
"original fibre matting" - I did not know there was one there...
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on November 21, 2019, 11:35:40
"original fibre matting" - I did not know there was one there...

I will post pictures on the matting this weekend when I am back at the barn
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on November 21, 2019, 11:38:22
How come you decided not to remove the fibre matting over the transmission tunnel?

I guess I could remove it. I wasn’t removing any of the original materials but I guess the new solid material should be better than the original matting on the tunnel.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: cfm65@me.com on November 21, 2019, 20:33:13
Hi John.
My reply post #39 refers.
I am very much in awe of the excellent job you are doing.
I have owned 2 190Sl’s and restored 6, I have also owned 4 Pagodas and a pair of 111’s (a 61 Cabrio and a 63 Coupe) as well as a few modern sedans, station wagons and a few modern SLs.
Keep up the good work.
Regards
Chris
Cape Town
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on November 21, 2019, 22:26:27
Hi John.
My reply post #39 refers.
I am very much in awe of the excellent job you are doing.
I have owned 2 190Sl’s and restored 6, I have also owned 4 Pagodas and a pair of 111’s (a 61 Cabrio and a 63 Coupe) as well as a few modern sedans, station wagons and a few modern SLs.
Keep up the good work.
Regards
Chris
Cape Town

A thank you Chris! I am in awe of what you have owned and own!  My favorite realistic dream car has always been an E-type since my brother had one in the 60’s. I often wondered if someone offered me a decent price for my 280 when I am done would I seriously consider selling it to get an e-type. I know my son would be heart broken.

If you had to choose which of the two would you select to be your only classic?
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on November 22, 2019, 00:52:51
Hi John.
My reply post #39 refers.
I am very much in awe of the excellent job you are doing.
I have owned 2 190Sl’s and restored 6, I have also owned 4 Pagodas and a pair of 111’s (a 61 Cabrio and a 63 Coupe) as well as a few modern sedans, station wagons and a few modern SLs.
Keep up the good work.
Regards
Chris
Cape Town

A thank you Chris! I am in awe of what you have owned and own!  My favorite realistic dream car has always been an E-type since my brother had one in the 60’s. I often wondered if someone offered me a decent price for my 280 when I am done would I seriously consider selling it to get an e-type. I know my son would be heart broken.

If you had to choose which of the two would you select to be your only classic?
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: cfm65@me.com on November 22, 2019, 15:14:25
Hi John,
It would be very difficult for me to decide between the E and the Pagoda.
My E Type is in better condition than the Pagoda, however, now that I have the fuel injection sorted and changed auto box with a 5 speed Getrag, SL is much more user friendly than before.
To tell the truth, the 29 Chevy is my daily driver and my favourite.
Regards
Chris
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on November 30, 2019, 23:37:31
"original fibre matting" - I did not know there was one there...
Pawel
Below is a picture of the original matting on the transmission tunnel. It is pretty thick and completely so I Am going to leave it in place and focus is putting the new material behind the seats to help silence the rear axle and road noise.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on December 12, 2019, 03:59:56
So I have done all I can under the dash and it was time to take it off the rotisserie and start the drive train yea!  Removing the rotisserie was kind old like taking off your ski boots after a great day skiing -ahhhhh!

This weekend I will be installing the rear end - any tips on the compensating spring are greatly appreciated. I had the privilege of having Joe Alexander rebuild my differential and the transmission.

The really nice trolley supporting the unit on wheels and keeping the axles
Horizontal is courtesy is Shvegel who luckily also lives relatively close by.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Benz Dr. on December 12, 2019, 04:22:13
Irrepond, You just made my month thank you! i will make sure I post more pics as I go forward.

Below are pics of Fernando Castanfeira's car that is the model for my colors. Fernando has been super helpful in helping me get my colors right, and sent me these pics just yesterday helping to make sure I order the right leather color.

I had that same car in my shop about 17 years ago but I think I remember it having dark brown leather. At any rate, it was a decent looking car back then and the only one I've seen in that color. 
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on December 13, 2019, 04:36:36
Good memory Dan. It did have brown leather before.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on December 24, 2019, 16:58:24
I thought I would attempt to install the green stripes on my rear shocks before the install. Shvegel gave me the measurements as to size and spacing apart but I had to guess on the location on the shock. I couldn’t find any picks of the stripes on the site. Any picks would be appreciated so I can adjust if necessary. I know many believe this is a bit of overkill but why not when it doesn’t take long at all.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on December 24, 2019, 17:21:36
sorry about the last pic being sidewise. Having a bit of problem transferring the pics in the same orientation that they show on my phone.

We installed the rear differential yesterday. I read a good bit about the special tool used to install the front of the trailer arms with the doughnut bushings and how difficult the process can be. Luckily I am working in my brothers barn with all kinds of junk handy for makeshift tools. I found the installation of the front of the trailer arms to be a five minute job by just getting them close by pushing on the rear axle and then pushing the arm up from directly underneath with a 3 inch pipe fitting and an old jack. A little bit of liquid dish soap provided the lubrication.

I wish my method for installing the compensating spring was as easy though. Took longer than it should but its done. I am a bit concerned that jacks under the ends of the rear axles raise the car up before they straighten out the axles, but I hope that is just the lack of weight from a bare chassis.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: DaveB on December 24, 2019, 21:47:59
Here's a photo of a new pair
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on December 25, 2019, 04:47:10
Thanks Dave.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Shvegel on December 26, 2019, 14:50:24
It always cracks me up every time I spend an hour trying to mask off a part and paint a mark you know someone did in about 2 seconds with no thought about location etc at the factory.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on December 26, 2019, 18:43:18
It always cracks me up every time I spend an hour trying to mask off a part and paint a mark you know someone did in about 2 seconds with no thought about location etc at the factory.

Good point pat. I am about to do the same with figuring out what dots go where on my differential and rear suspension. 
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Shvegel on December 27, 2019, 17:28:00
I have a bunch of pictures and can help you if you need it.  The “Holy Grail” is a good starting point.  Make sure you use the pictures from before they touched it up as they covered some of the “Dotology” for example the big blue swipe across the drain plug shrinks after the touchup.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Pawel66 on December 27, 2019, 19:21:19
I think I could use some of your pictures too, actually...
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: lreppond on December 29, 2019, 16:44:05
Hey John.
Wow you’re doing such a meticulous restoration right down to the n-th degree.  Your workmanship, attention to detail and finish choices (paint and interior) are all contributing to what will be an amazing car.  I’m both impressed and proud of your accomplishments.  Best of luck with this endeavor in 2020.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on December 30, 2019, 02:42:39
Thank you Irrepond!  I  excited about tomorrow. I am heading to Columbus to put my engine together under the eye of Joe Alexander. I am very lucky to live so close to the master!
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: lreppond on December 30, 2019, 22:50:21
Wow, I’d be excited too.   Now that’s a double dose of w113 knowledge power. Keep us updated.  This has become my favorite thread on this site!
Len.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on January 01, 2020, 03:44:38
So yesterday was the highlight of my restoration. Got to spend the day putting the engine together with Joe Alexander! What a class teacher we have in Joe and talented yet humble mentor. Not only did he do such a thorough job teaching me along the way, but he took the extra step to lay out the nuances of what remaining bolts and nuts go where and what to look out for as I finish some of the periphial items on my own.  After twelve straight hours of assembly at 11:00 at night joe was still an energizer bunny willing to keep assembling more while showing me more. I had to call it quits as I was just plain tired, and I am younger than Joe!

Anyways thanks to Joe for a great day advice, expertise and friendship.   You are a true friend to us all on sl113!

John
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on January 01, 2020, 03:47:37
Damn IPhone!  I can never tell
What orientation it is going to post my pictures in until after they are posted!
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Shvegel on January 01, 2020, 20:23:05
Pawel and John,
Here are the pictures of my rear suspension Dotology.  Pretty confident of most of it.  The rear shock lower bolts may be plated and there may not be marks on all the brake lines I marked.  I just assumed the assembly was painted black, filled with oil( blue marks on drain and fill plugs), brake lines, calipers, hoses and rotors were added then the unit installed. Spring marking are per application and there is a yellow dot on the inboard face of the control arm only.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Shvegel on January 01, 2020, 20:24:31
More.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Shvegel on January 01, 2020, 20:26:54
More.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Pawel66 on January 01, 2020, 21:52:01
Shvegel, thank you so much for this! I actually put my car today aon a more permanent stand higher above the floor to do a couple of fixes, I will also look into dotology!

Thanks again!
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: ja17 on January 01, 2020, 22:01:31
Nice photos.  One thing I noticed over the years, the size and colors of the dots varied from car to car. Most likely when shift changes at the factory. The inspection dots were very individualized like signatures from the man with the paint.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Shvegel on January 02, 2020, 01:41:41
Joe,
I totally agree.  Some of the dots are consistent like the inside of the control arm but when you get down to final checking and wheel alignment etc all bets are off.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Shvegel on January 02, 2020, 01:44:19
Here ia a better lit shot showing the colors better.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Pawel66 on January 02, 2020, 08:37:41
Thank you again!

Is it white on the two bolts holding the spring bracket?
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on January 02, 2020, 14:13:02
Thanks Pat
Your differential color locations are very similar to my pics before I started the restoration and your pics are more complete.

Pawel it appears that light green was used on front and rear suspension bolts. I have some in my front suspension as well.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Pawel66 on January 02, 2020, 18:53:26
ok, thank you, so this is light green.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: mbzse on January 02, 2020, 21:07:12
ok, thank you, so this is light green
Yes, and the dot between the fasteners is yellow
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Pawel66 on January 02, 2020, 21:27:49
Thank you Hans. I did not understand that yellow point. Marking screws - ok, but this yellow dot?
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night... Dotology
Post by: mbzse on January 02, 2020, 23:24:21
The paint markings put on fasteners and other parts of Mercedes cars on the production line has been discussed several times on our Forum. Just put in search key "dotology" and you will find many postings.
In principle, these dots are part of quality control. A paint dab indicates "assembly complete", "torque applied", others "fluid filled", "front suspension aligned", "steering and toe-in aligned" and so on.
These markings were put on by workers in the factory, with a brush. Colours red, yellow, pale green, and blue.
See https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=26299.msg188316#msg188316 (https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=26299.msg188316#msg188316)

PS.  I added this in Tech Manual under "Chassis and Body"
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Shvegel on January 03, 2020, 00:21:35
Here is my "Trying to make sense of it"  The yellow dots on the insides of the control arms let you know they are in the right positions as they are sided left and right.  The light green on the compensating spring bracket says the bolts are tight.  The yellow dot says "Camber OK" and the red over the green as seen in John's picture says "We changed a spacer and now the camber is OK and the red says we re checked the bolts a second time after we replaced the spacer."
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night... Dotology
Post by: Pawel66 on January 03, 2020, 00:40:32
The paint markings put on fasteners and other parts of Mercedes cars on the production line has been discussed several times on our Forum. Just put in search key "dotology" and you will find many postings.
In principle, these dots are part of quality control. A paint dab indicates "assembly complete", "torque applied", others "fluid filled", "front suspension aligned", "steering and toe-in aligned" and so on.
These markings were put on by workers in the factory, with a brush. Colours red, yellow, pale green, and blue.
See https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=26299.msg188316#msg188316 (https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=26299.msg188316#msg188316)

PS.  I added this in Tech Manual under "Chassis and Body"

Hans,

Yes, thank you. I am somewhat familiar with the topic, been studying it for a while. I am enclosing my "collection" gathered from many posts. But I have obvious gaps, so thanks - it is also about a number of other topics, activities, tasks completed etc., as you said.

In this particular question I was after what could various colours mean in this paticular instance. I knew that dots were about confirming tightening of screws or nuts in important places, torques perhaps, oil filling, etc. What I did not understand was this instance of light green (which I could not recognize on the picture, thought it was white) and yellow on top of it as well as some other "multi-colour" places.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Pawel66 on January 03, 2020, 00:43:31
Here is my "Trying to make sense of it"  The yellow dots on the insides of the control arms let you know they are in the right positions as they are sided left and right.  The light green on the compensating spring bracket says the bolts are tight.  The yellow dot says "Camber OK" and the red over the green as seen in John's picture says "We changed a spacer and now the camber is OK and the red says we re checked the bolts a second time after we replaced the spacer."

Shvegel, thank you - I see now. It is the assembly activity log of certain sort, not just simple "tightening" confirmation. This means the dots may vary from car to car to some extend maybe. Thank you for your patience.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: afeustel on January 04, 2020, 04:03:26
So I learned  new trick from Shvegel recently. I needed to replace my gas line grommets and I could only find 2 online. There is actually about ten of these in the car for different uses. He told me to by a solid rubber line online cut it to length and drill a hole in the center.

Works great and cost less than ten bucks  for the rubber!

John

Hi John. Great documentation on your work. The car is awesome.  Sorry for reaching back to the topic of the gas line grommets (and I believe brake line grommets as well on the rear axle), but do you happen to recall where you ordered the solid rubber line from and also what the diameter was?

Thanks for your time.
Drew
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on January 04, 2020, 05:20:28
I will look it up drew. I found it on the internet by searching for solid rubber line. There were lot of options but most were too small in diameter. What I got was slightly thinner than the original but it was wasn't noticeable after wrapping around the line.  The idea was Shvegel's.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on January 04, 2020, 06:02:35
Hi John. Great documentation on your work. The car is awesome.  Sorry for reaching back to the topic of the gas line grommets (and I believe brake line grommets as well on the rear axle), but do you happen to recall where you ordered the solid rubber line from and also what the diameter was?

Thanks for your time.
Drew

Drew,
What you are searching for is "solid rubber Cord" I couldn't find who I bought mine from but looks like Cleverdelights lists a lot of difference sizes on Amazon.  Its about $20 for ten feet of the cord.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: afeustel on January 04, 2020, 06:09:21
Thank you very much. I will give that a try.  Was there a particular diameter that you used? Seems like it should be around 1/2" or so?
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on January 04, 2020, 13:17:41
Seems that my old ones were about 5/8’s and the closest I could find was in mm and slightly smaller. I can measure today.  I think half inch was too small.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on January 04, 2020, 21:06:38
Just measured my old ones. Half inch should work.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Shvegel on January 04, 2020, 23:16:40
Drew,
Might also be listed as “O-ring stock”.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: afeustel on January 05, 2020, 03:44:39
Thanks to you both for the intel.

Drew
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: MikeSimon on January 06, 2020, 00:16:13
John: Don't you think the original part was "metric", i.e.: size in mm?
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on January 06, 2020, 01:36:10
I didn’t remember the exact size when he first asked. Just thought it was close to 5/8’s.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Shvegel on January 11, 2020, 03:48:05
Turns out the technical term is O-ring cord stock.  This is where I order stock for the ship I work on.  Either Buna or EPDM in a 70 durometer should be fine. Sizes here to 1" or 25.4mm.


https://www.theoringstore.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=117
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on January 13, 2020, 13:58:17
So here is my differential with the original dots replaced. I had a delay in getting this finished in that I didn’t have the blue paint I thought I did

The pictures colors aren’t completely true. The bolts have light green on them not light blue.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on January 13, 2020, 14:04:52
I split my calibers as I had some light rust in the inside cylinder wall that I wanted to remove with a hone and make sure that portion was replated.

Schvegel gave me the source to find the O-rings that don’t come with the rebuild kit. I plan on finishing them tomorrow once I pick up some loctite for the bolts.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on January 14, 2020, 03:32:58
I'm having difficulty locating the rubber grommet(s) for where the rear cross strut connects to the top of the differential.
The only thing I can locate are the two rubber donuts that secure the cross strut to the chassis. To be honest I can't locate the original rubber that I removed to even see what they look like. Any help is appreciated in that regard!
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: mbzse on January 14, 2020, 10:25:06
Quote from: johnk
.../...the rubber grommet(s) for where the rear cross strut connects.../... the original rubber that I removed to even see what they look like.../...
See attached.  (17) is the sealing grommet
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Pawel66 on January 14, 2020, 11:59:26
A 113 351 00 91, about $10, I bought it 2 weeks ago at MB dealer.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on January 14, 2020, 13:05:18
See attached.  (17) is the sealing grommet

Thanks but that is on the attachment to the chassis. I need the grommet where the strut clamps on to the large eyelet on the differential housing.

I will stop by the mercedes dealer and see if I can point it out on their charts. I need to price an exhaust anyways.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on January 14, 2020, 13:58:53
See attached.  (17) is the sealing grommet

I didn’t see the whole picture on my phone at first. 113-351-0448 is exactly what I am looking for thank you!
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on January 15, 2020, 19:11:18
So I ordered the correct grommets from my local Mercedes dealer. $54 per side. Ouch! I am starting to see how a full restoration replacing all rubber components is so expensive.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on January 20, 2020, 03:55:56
Engines just about done so I had to finally finish my valve cover. To bead blast it like the rest of my aluminum Schvegel suggested bolting it to a board to keep the beads out of the channel inside the cover.

I added some caulk and my old valve cover gasket to the equation and great results- not a single glass bead on the inside.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Pawel66 on January 20, 2020, 05:31:10
Looks terrific!
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: dirkbalter on January 20, 2020, 16:09:32
Hi John,

Looks great.
Do you leave the cover as is or do you apply any protective coating? What kind of beads (grit) are you using and where do you get it from. If you don't mind me asking?
Thanks
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on January 20, 2020, 17:06:41
Dirk
I used glass beads.  I coated the rest of my Aluminum with Nyalic clear spray. I’m going to wash it now with Starbrite aluminum (boat) cleaner. I will probably use the Nyalic again but I may test a satin clear first.

Thanks
John
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: dirkbalter on January 20, 2020, 17:29:39
John,
thanks, appreciate it. I am still blasting my steel parts. I will have to switch to glass once I start with the aluminum. 
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on January 20, 2020, 18:23:53
Dirk
Sorry I didn't answer what grit and where I got it. I bought the beads two years ago, probably from Eastwood or Harbor Freight. I don't remember what grit though. I can look at the bag this weekend and let you know. Interesting point though. If I can find a finer grit it would be worth making a second pass to give it a natural low lustre. I tried going over it after the glass beads with Soda. The soda did nothing but fog up the cabinet.

If you look back at my earlier stages of this thread you will find pics of the other aluminum parts I did. 

John
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: dirkbalter on January 20, 2020, 18:38:17
John,
good to know. I was looking at MSC for the media and they offer different grits. That's why I asked.

 https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/09118282

Thanks
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: MikeSimon on January 21, 2020, 13:22:31
Blasting aluminum is best done with a process called Vapor Blasting. Unless you have the expensive equipment, you cannot do it yourself, but it is definitely worth finding a shop that can do it.
I have all my aluminum motorcycle parts (engine covers, cylinder heads and barrels, etc) done this way and they come out like new.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on January 21, 2020, 17:10:43
Blasting aluminum is best done with a process called Vapor Blasting. Unless you have the expensive equipment, you cannot do it yourself, but it is definitely worth finding a shop that can do it.
I have all my aluminum motorcycle parts (engine covers, cylinder heads and barrels, etc) done this way and they come out like new.

Mike
I agree that vapor blasting looks great but it can be fairly expensive. Did you have it done locally?
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: MikeSimon on January 21, 2020, 18:32:25
Yes, John, locally. I have a friend who has a powder coating business. He also does vapor blasting. The charges are usually by the hour. I cannot think the valve cover would be that expensive.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on January 21, 2020, 18:47:37
Great mike. Can you send me his contact info please!
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on January 21, 2020, 18:52:03
So I just ordered my timevalve exhaust. I will be ceramic coating it in black with Ceracote after it’s welded. I see that the Mercedes tips are $80 each. Has anybody ordered the Ansel tips instead?  Wondering how noticeable the difference is vs the polished OEM tips.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: MikeSimon on January 21, 2020, 21:09:25
John: Do you want me to check into getting some stuff done for you? Send me an e-mail mike.simon70@yahoo.com
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on January 21, 2020, 21:54:42
yes please thanks Mike. I just emailed you.

John
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: MikeSimon on February 01, 2020, 21:44:26
While checking on the part for John, I decided to have my intake manifold vapor blasted. I got it back today.
Very happy with the result. The last picture was a "before" shot
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on February 02, 2020, 01:43:53
really nice Mike! Looking forward to seeing what he can do with my valve cover. It’s still not as uniform as I would like.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on February 03, 2020, 02:46:25
So big step today. Finally joined the engine with the front suspension. using a trolley supplied by Schvegel  that works great!

I will post more pics once I finish installing the rest of the components.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: doitwright on February 03, 2020, 05:29:08
John,

If you use the sedan bracket for the AC compressor you will likely need the taller neck for the top of the thermostat housing where the hose connects as to the radiator. I have seen some on eBay recently.

Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on February 03, 2020, 16:11:48
Thanks Frank. I am going with the original bracket though.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on February 04, 2020, 23:23:04
So I ordered my Timevalve exhaust but I plan on ceramic coating it to to match the original factory look.  does anyone know what color the exhaust was from the factory? I know the MB muffler I ordered four years ago came in silver, but I though I read a while ago of some members coating their stainless exhaust in black.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on February 05, 2020, 03:32:44
Hi John,

Looks great.
Do you leave the cover as is or do you apply any protective coating? What kind of beads (grit) are you using and where do you get it from. If you don't mind me asking?

Dirk
I checked the glass bead bag and it doesn’t list the grit. I would guess it’s the medium grade

John
Thanks
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on February 22, 2020, 00:23:08
I just received my new “not embossed” VIN tag today From Authentic Classics. Looks so much better than the old. I just need to get it embossed now.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on February 22, 2020, 00:32:56
So Mike Simon talked me in to having his friend vapor blast my valve cover. Wow what an amazing difference!!  While my media blaster cover looked great in a picture or from 5 feet away it really had a blotchy I uneven finish. 

It now has a new smooth and consistent finish; looks like it’s from a concourse restoration shop!  In addition the shop does not recommend or see a need to protect the finish with a clear satin paint.  They said while the friction heat from bead blasting opens the pores in the aluminum the cool peening from vapor blasting closes the pores preventing oxidation and the absorption of dirt and grease.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on February 22, 2020, 00:37:04
A few more pics
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: hauser on February 22, 2020, 03:40:48
John it looking awesome!
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on February 22, 2020, 04:50:00
Thanks Fernando!
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: MikeSimon on February 22, 2020, 12:02:08
Looks great, Johm. Better than I expected. And I don't want to take any credit for "talking you into". I didn't think I had to. Glad you are happy with it. They do a great job.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on February 27, 2020, 00:58:53
So the engine and transmission are finally ready to go in this weekend from the bottom up. Yea!
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: badali on February 29, 2020, 16:19:41
The intake manifold will have to be removed.  Looks great though...
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: mmizesko on February 29, 2020, 19:26:30
John,

I've been saving my praise till the end of your project.  You have my deepest respect.  This will be a show car.  Worthy of Amelia.  It absolutely looks amazing.  Color is perfect too.  Crap, now I feel inadequate.

Congratulations.

Mike
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on March 01, 2020, 03:37:40
The intake manifold will have to be removed.  Looks great though...

Thanks Brad

Yes the manifolds are just loose. everything on the front of the engine can't go on until I weld the exhaust together. I'm using the big bracket for the AC which means exhaust first, then exhaust manifold with the big bracket, then I can do the water pump, fan blade, etc.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on March 01, 2020, 04:27:35
John,

I've been saving my praise till the end of your project.  You have my deepest respect.  This will be a show car.  Worthy of Amelia.  It absolutely looks amazing.  Color is perfect too.  Crap, now I feel inadequate.

Congratulations.

Mike

Thanks Mike. I had to chuckle reading yours consider how  beautiful your green pagoda is.

Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on March 28, 2020, 00:43:15
It’s tax and year end time so not much Pagoda time lately. Plus I’m just not exited about heating up the barn when it’s 20 degrees out. Anyways I finally got the engine in last weekend. Ok to the Front suspension tomorrow. Any tips on getting the springs in will be greatly appreciated though!
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: doitwright on March 29, 2020, 21:55:26
Search the forum for spring install tips.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on March 30, 2020, 01:46:04
Search the forum for spring install tips.

Thanks frank.  I actually stopped by autozone and borrowed a spring compressor that hooks from inside of the spring. just might work.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on March 30, 2020, 02:09:29
I finished ceramic
Coating my TimeValve exhaust today taking advantage of a rare 70 degree weekend here. I outgassed the exhaust in my home grill, prepped the surface and sprayed today.

I’m going to install with clamps for now as I don’t have a lift. I can get it on a lift later to have the joints welded. 
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: ja17 on March 30, 2020, 03:25:51
Hi John, I see by your photo, that TimeValve is still welding the connector pipes in backwards. I always have them ship them to me separate so I can weld them on correctly. Not that big a deal I guess.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on March 30, 2020, 12:35:47
Hi Joe,

Good to hear from you. Yes unfortunately I read you previous post about that after I ordered and received the system.

John
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: mbzse on March 30, 2020, 13:17:33
Exhaust system W113 (made by Gillet; OEM)
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Pawel66 on March 30, 2020, 14:25:23
Is it the long awaited new production for 280SL?
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: mbzse on March 30, 2020, 14:57:28
Quote from: Pawel66
Is it the long awaited new production for 280SL?
I bought this from Mercedes (and fitted it to my SL), some 5 years ago.

See for instance: https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=24399.msg174512#msg174512 (https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=24399.msg174512#msg174512)
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: MikeSimon on March 30, 2020, 15:37:10
The last  exhaust on my 280SL I had installed in Germany 35 years ago by my Mercedes dealer. It was an Eberspächer. It was welded on a gauge. It will have to be replaced before the car goes back on the road. I would very much like to have a unit that is being "clamped" rather than welded AND be made of stainless steel. Is there anything like that out there in the U.S.?
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: doitwright on March 30, 2020, 16:33:16
I would very much like to have a unit that is being "clamped" rather than welded AND be made of stainless steel. Is there anything like that out there in the U.S.?

TimeValve
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: ja17 on March 30, 2020, 16:34:48
The TimeValve system is made so it can be clamped or welded.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on March 30, 2020, 23:10:01
So is the only advantage of welding to make it look more original?
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: MikeSimon on March 30, 2020, 23:28:32
John: I am looking at clamping because of the easier DIY way to install and take off. Of all of the cars I ever owned, the SL is the only one that has a welded exhaust and I do not like it. The rear muffler is the one most prone to rust and it would be easy and less costly to replace it separately from the rest. I have no plans to sell the car as close to original as possible and it does not matter to me. Besides, welding of a part as an exhaust has some issues I try not to have on the car.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: wwheeler on March 31, 2020, 04:57:58
Installing a welded system is obviously more difficult than a clamp system. I did it on my W111 and it was a pain. If it is a stainless welded system, you shouldn't have to worry about replacing parts of it. But I don't really see any other advantage of welding other than appearance.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Pawel66 on March 31, 2020, 06:23:19
I bought this from Mercedes (and fitted it to my SL), some 5 years ago.


I see, thank you. I asked about the new one a couple of weeks ago and information I had was that it went beck for corrections again.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on April 01, 2020, 03:06:02
So while I am quarantined during the week I have been plating some of the parts I missed in the cadmium batch in my basement. These may be a bit too yellow. I can redo them if they look out of place on the car.

I wasted money and time starting with the plating solution from my local Eastwood store. It’s too small of a portion to use effectively plus it wouldn’t take yellow chromate or a brightening solution. Much better when I switched to the Caswell solution. Schvegel was a big help in coaching me through the process. Now its fun to do but I ran out of items to plate.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: wwheeler on April 01, 2020, 16:01:51
I did the Eastwood route awhile back ago and it is adequate at best. It is not a true zinc plate and yes, will not accept chromate. I then bought the Caswell kit and has been working wonderfully ever since. Caswell has many colors of chromate, yellow, clear, black and even olive drab. They also have a solution called Zincate which allows you to zinc plate aluminum. Normally you cannot plate aluminum because it oxidizes so quickly. This solution applies a sacrificially coating on it while it is cleaned in mild acid. Works great.

BTW, I know Schvegel plated his BC, which is a frightening thought, and I will give it a good some day. Parts look great.   
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: doitwright on April 02, 2020, 13:26:13
John,

Can you post a photo of some cadmium plated parts and zinc plated parts next to each other?
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on April 02, 2020, 21:39:29
John,

Can you post a photo of some cadmium plated parts and zinc plated parts next to each other?

Good idea Frank. I will be at the car this weekend and can grab some of both for the pics.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on April 08, 2020, 04:24:16
John,

Can you post a photo of some cadmium plated parts and zinc plated parts next to each other?

Not sure how good of a picture this is but while both the cad and zinc parts have many variations in color between themselves the zinc is a little more gold.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: wwheeler on April 08, 2020, 16:09:56
Just out of curiosity, why did you do some CAD and some zinc. Cad is at least twice the cost, but its durability is far greater than zinc. Plus, CAD doesn't have the dimensional build up that zinc can have. The color variation for either process can be attributed to many factors. One being the texture of the surface before plating and another being the chromate itself. Depending on how long it is in the chromate bath will determine the intensity of color and the "rainbow" effect.

I just plated a few small parts in zinc yesterday and left one of the parts in the plating bath a bit too long. Turns out that part had a very intense yellow chromate color when compared to the others despite being dipped in chromate for the same amount of time. I guess the heavier plate absorbed the chromate color faster than the others? Who knows, but there is an example of color variation on the finished product. I am sure the pros have similar issues and for the most part, don't worry about it. 
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on April 08, 2020, 22:42:14
Wallace

I had every piece I thought I had cadmium plated for $400. However there is always parts you find later that you missed or new ones that you had to buy, short on bolts etc. I just set up a zinc plating process in my basement for those miscellaneous pieces needed as I go.

There definately is a difference in color depending on how long it’s in the chromate, how shiny the zinc is and the different metals, but cadmium has similar variations.  My problem is sometimes I get small spots that just won’t absorb the chromate. Haven’t figured that one out yet.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: wwheeler on April 09, 2020, 01:36:57
My guess is that those spots did not plate. Maybe there was some dirt, grease or paint left? If it has zinc on it, the chromate should stick. Does the part have these spots before you chromate?

Alternatively, I do know with the yellow chromate there can be an issue with it "sloughing" off. Meaning that the yellow was on the part in the soak, but didn't stick and slid off in the rinse. Are you using the Caswell materials? I had that for a while when I started, but haven't seen it again. I would have to rethink what I did to eliminate that. 
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on April 09, 2020, 02:48:39
You hit the nail on the  head. The chromium sticks in the dip but washes off in the rinse on spots sometime. I am using Caswell’s products. Any advice you have is greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: stickandrudderman on April 09, 2020, 13:05:08
I notice someone plated their BC. You must take steps to stabilise it from internal corrosion AS SOON AS IT COMES OUT OF THE PLATING SOLUTION! The same applies for all parts that have any hollowness to them. (Fuel pipes and injectors for example. The plating process does not plate the inside so those insides, which have been acid stripped of all protection, will corrode VERY quickly.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on April 09, 2020, 16:08:06
Good point. Thanks stick
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: wwheeler on April 09, 2020, 19:07:49
I think what Shvegal did on his BC was to plate it upside down with all of the openings above water line. So in other words, only the can part and not the threads. I think that is OK. I agree, can’t have any plating fluid getting into spaces where it cannot come out.

Caswell has/had a great on line forum at one time and I read through the posts about the chromate not sticking. If I recall, it is important to be gentle with the part as it comes out of the chromate and then dip it in hot tap water. I think the hot water starts the “curing” process of the chromate. Then I spray distilled water on the part to rinse off the tap water. We have extremely hard water here and our tap water will leave bad spots if allowed to dry. Then blow dry with low psi air and bake with a heat gun. You can handle it after that but NOT before.

The other issue may be that you are not dipping the plated part in 10% acid (10 parts distilled water and 1 part Muratic acid) prior to chromating. That also helps clean the surface and prep it for chromate. BTW, from what I read, Black chromate requires Sulphuric acid, not Muratic. Muratic messes with the chemistry of the black chromate.

I have been doing this so long, it has become muscle memory and it takes a bit to remember exactly what I did. This seems only to be a problem with the yellow for some reason. But I still use the same technique for clear (slight blue) and black.

 
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on April 09, 2020, 19:34:47
Very helpful Wallace. I was not following that rinsing process. I did leave the end of the threads on the BC out of the solution.

caswell support told me to dip the part prior to chromate into
Straight sulfuric acid for two seconds rather than the 10% solution. I tried and stopped that as it removes too much of the zinc. The 10% sounds like a better idea.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Shvegel on April 09, 2020, 22:40:33
Stick,
As John mentioned my BC threads were kept above the level of the solution.  One of the reasons I got into plating was to do the things I would never send out.  What I refer to as the unplatables.  This was my favorite rig.  Air injection with wires down. 
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: wwheeler on April 10, 2020, 02:54:37
caswell support told me to dip the part prior to chromate into
Straight sulfuric acid for two seconds rather than the 10% solution. I tried and stopped that as it removes too much of the zinc. Yeah, don't do that. The 10% sounds like a better idea.

Hmm. Maybe you misunderstood them? Straight acid (sulphuric or muratic) would completely burn off any zinc plate in a matter of seconds. No, the 10% works well and will start to fizzle the zinc plate in a couple of seconds. Once that happens, pull the part. When it the part comes out, you will notice that any staining or slight discoloration from plating is gone. But, there is still plenty of zinc plate left.

I use straight muratic acid to clean the steel parts just prior to plating. They are free of grease and paint, but may have some old plating remnants and the acid takes that right off. Caution: Dealing with straight acid is VERY dangerous and you have to be extremely careful. Skin burns and inhalation of acid fumes are bad things. Also never add water to straight acid. Always the reverse.   
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on April 10, 2020, 03:26:44
This was back when I started with Eastwood solution and called I Caswell to ask why their chromate would not stick (I didn't know at the time that Eastwood solution wasn't made to accept chromate). He told me to use straight acid rather than the 10% that I had read about.  I think he was new as there were a few other things he told me that didn't make sense. I do use muriatic before plating. I will try the 10% sulfuric wash before applying the chromate next. Hopefully the 10% solution will resolve that.

Thanks for your advice wallace.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: wwheeler on April 10, 2020, 14:34:51
If you haven’t yet, you might also look at the Caswell forum and look that topic up. There may be some other info on that to help you be successful. Good luck! Yes, pretty surprising info from Caswell and I hope that guy isn’t still there!
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: doitwright on April 11, 2020, 14:24:05
Mike’s Restorations has a few YouTube videos with plenty of suggestions on how to get it right.

https://youtu.be/hTupOgImpWo
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: wwheeler on April 11, 2020, 18:06:56
Wow. I just saw both videos. He does way more preparation than I do and I though I was excessive. His parts are 100% perfect, but I think there has to be a point where the outcome doesn't justify the time involved. I do about half that work and mine are quite nice. I guess we all have our own levels that we want to achieve. There are a couple of items I saw that I wanted to comment on:

1) I stopped using a circulation pump in the plating bath and couldn't see any difference with or without. Caswell said it wasn't totally necessary. Anybody else not use a pump?
2) Not sure he is using full strength Muratic acid in cleaning the parts. I buy the stuff for pools at the big box store and when it is in a open cup, it fumes. And those fumes cannot be breathed in! I have to keep my acid bath covered at all times. I also could not leave a part in for 30 minutes or else it would be eaten alive. My parts stay in for about 10 seconds. And the way he was splashing the acid around makes me nervous. That is what makes me believe it is diluted.
3) I do not plate spring parts because they will develop issues from hydrogen embrittlement. I doesn't happen all of the time, but it has happened enough that I don't plate those anymore. That also includes split lock washers. I have broken many in the past that were re-plated. Since they are standard and inexpensive, really not much reason not to use new.

Anyway, just some thoughts.   
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Shvegel on April 13, 2020, 02:17:56
Plating is a lot like seasickness.  Everybody seems to find what works for them.  I do very little prep.  Clean the grease off,  Bead blast to remove any rust or remaining grease then 30 percent Sulphuric acid in water until all the original plating then Zinc and Chromate.  I do use a circ pump in my bath unless I am doing 1 or 2 parts then I don't bother. 
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: wwheeler on April 13, 2020, 02:24:49
Do you find that the results with the circulation pump are better and how so? I may go back to that.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Shvegel on April 14, 2020, 08:31:06
I don't see a difference.  I just stir the mix with a stainless rod if I need to do one or two parts and fire up the pump if I am going to be there for more than an hour or so. I also quit heating the solution a while ago.  Probably the biggest mistake I made was using solid zinc sheet for electrodes.  As it deteriorated it left chunks in the finished product.  I now use round electrodes bought on Amazon and have not had an issue.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: wwheeler on April 14, 2020, 16:50:19
Interesting about the electrodes. I still use the sheets and haven't seen any problems, but the round ones may give better uniformity. Do you have a link to those?

Yes, no heat for me as well. I just plate when it is 70* F or higher and have had no issues. 
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Shvegel on April 15, 2020, 02:34:23
I use these.  I drill and put a female thread on one end and thread them onto a stainless rod.  I was using very thin zinc flashing material before.  The problem arose when  the zinc sheet started to lose chunks as it broke down.  Most plating shops use a cage filled with balls which makes sense now.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on May 24, 2020, 02:04:59
Unfortunately I messed up my back while running and I wasn’t able to work on my car for almost a month but I’m better now. Just finished installing the exhaust and I’m back on the engine.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on May 24, 2020, 02:07:19
Today more progress on the engine hope to have it ready to turn the key on the next week or so.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: wwheeler on May 24, 2020, 15:53:41
I just noticed the oil cooler hoses with the original type screw on fittings. Did you remake the hose assemblies?
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: ja17 on May 24, 2020, 19:49:46
Hi John,
Looks like #4 injector line is routed on the wrong side of the #1 injector line near the IP. Routing those lines can be confusing after they are all apart. Maybe this photo can help...…………..
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on May 25, 2020, 02:50:07
I just noticed the oil cooler hoses with the original type screw on fittings. Did you remake the hose assemblies?
I did not Wallace. They came with the car when I bought it five years ago. The hoses are still flexible with no signs of cracks so I wasn’t planning on replacing them.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on May 25, 2020, 02:52:23
Hi John,
Looks like #4 injector line is routed on the wrong side of the #1 injector line near the IP. Routing those lines can be confusing after they are all apart. Maybe this photo can help...…………..
[/quote

Thanks you joe! Everything is pretty much just loose now but I will make sure I check them and get them in the right place. Amazing that you could lick that out from the picture.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on May 25, 2020, 03:02:17
Just put together the horns after refinishing them.
I didn’t mention before that my time valve exhaust went in without a hitch. I am using clamps for now but plan on welding the exhaust later after the car is running and I can take to my friends shop with a lift.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: wwheeler on May 25, 2020, 03:23:38
Nice to have the original fittings and are next to impossible to find. Keep those for sure and don’t throw them away in favor of the newer crimped style.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: 66andBlue on May 25, 2020, 03:25:40
John,
horns look great but take a small brush and paint the 8 screws on the cover black.
https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Electrical/Horns
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: doitwright on May 25, 2020, 04:41:11
When are you going to make the holes in the firewall for the AC linesets?
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on May 30, 2020, 00:38:22
John,
horns look great but take a small brush and paint the 8 screws on the cover black.
https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Electrical/Horns

Alfred,
Are you sure the screws should be black? I thought I saw on original picture where they were silver. Happy to take a brush to them if they should be black.

Jn
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on May 30, 2020, 00:47:33
When are you going to make the holes in the firewall for the AC linesets?

Frank,

Was planning on doing that as soon as I was able to get it running and bring it over to my own garage. Schvegel just drilled his holes as was going to give me some guidance from his experience when I am ready.  He made up the hoses for me already as well. Friends from this site like you Pat, Joe, etc. etc. are priceless!

Are you done with the Michigan project?

John
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: mbzse on May 30, 2020, 10:08:22
Quote from: johnk
.../...are you sure the screws should be black?
Yes.
See this posting https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=28625.msg206999#msg206999 (https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=28625.msg206999#msg206999)
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on May 30, 2020, 11:13:33
http://historic.motoringinvestments.com/images/Z104/uc13.JPG

The picture above from
The holy grail is what I was looking at. Seems that the screws were either not painted or the paint was chipping off.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Jonny B on May 30, 2020, 14:42:40
I would suspect the paint is chipping off. On my 280 SL, the screws sort of looked silver, but when I got up and close, you could see the black paint. I think the overall look with black is better anyway, it does not draw attention to the horns, there is an even black flow as you look underneath the car.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on May 30, 2020, 14:49:50
I agree. I will touch them up.

Thanks for advice.

John
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Shvegel on June 05, 2020, 09:35:36
JonnyB,  It is interesting that you mentioned a "black flow" under the car.  A while back Aaron H and I were discussing the correct finishes on the brake calipers and My position was the calipers are yellow zinc finish and Aaron thought they were yellow zinc but the inside faces were painted black.  We agreed to disagree but a few days ago I was looking at my car from the front and thought, "You know they do sort of stick out around all the black under the car.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: wwheeler on June 05, 2020, 16:53:40
I think I posted this picture which shows that the calipers were black on the insides. I have a 20 + something MB file and when you zoom in, it is pretty clear what is painted and what is not. I think it is a legit argument. If they sprayed chassis black on the calipers, I can't imagine the paint would be able to stand the heat over time and would flake off. Sort of like the exhaust manifolds. And maybe why so few people ever see these finishes on cars that were driven and not stored in a time capsule. 
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on June 14, 2020, 13:24:37
I am ready to try and start the car finally but I need to get the brakes and clutch bled first and could use some advice. Reading the bleeding threads on this site I assumed a pressure bleeder pushes the fluid up from the bleed screw to the reservoir. The only bleeding system I was able to buy locally is a vacuum system that attaches to the bleed screw and creates a vacuum to suck the fluid from the reservoir down. I tried this system on both the brakes and the clutch slave and I get nothing but air with no drop in the level of fluid in the reservoirs.

 I checked all the fittings to be tight. I also tried having my son pump the brake pedal the old fashion way and that didn't work either. I am only opening the bleed screws slightly so they are not the source of the air.

Any suggestions?

thanks gents
John
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: wwheeler on June 14, 2020, 16:58:20
I have used both systems and the pressure blender is by far the best. The pressure bleeder has a cap that fits on top of the reservoir and seals the system. You pump up the tank which then pressureizes the whole system. The with the system presurized, you go to each individual bleeder and open it up until there is no air.

Yes, the vacuum bleeder sucks brake fluid into the jar from the bleeder. The biggest issue is that air also get sucked in around the bleeder itself. As soon as you loosen the bleeder, brake fluid will get drawn in but also will draw air around the bleeder via the threads. Because of that, you have no idea when you have removed the air from the lines. I think you are better off doing the two man procedure instead of the vacuum procedure. The pressure bleeder and the two man procedure are similar in theory.

I use a Motive pressure bleeder and they have an adapter for our cars. If you put brake fluid in the pressure tank, you do not have to depressurize and add more fluid. It does it automatically. But cleaning up later can make a mess and I choose not to do that. I just depressurize the system when the brake fluid gets low and manually add fluid to top off. Not that big of a deal and a whole lot easier than cleaning up later.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on June 14, 2020, 18:02:00
Thanks Wallace. I have to figure out why the old pumping the brake method doesn’t work either. I had no problems with the brakes before I took car apart.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: mrfatboy on June 14, 2020, 19:20:31
New master cylinder?  Is it primed? I put a new one in recently and primed it on the bench first.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: kampala on June 14, 2020, 22:26:07
John,

I use a mityvac on the brakes and clutch on the 250.  It works great.    The 250 has a bleeder on clutch master just above the pedal.  I think other models do not have this bleeder. 

I use the "insert" rubber tip in the mityvac kit - the one that goes inside the bleeder, push and twist.
build up some vacuum and then crack the bleeder very slightly. 

Make sure you have vacuum pressure when you close the bleeder.

You can use pipe tape on the bleeder threads to stop outside air being sucked by vacuum  but I have not needed to do that.  worked just fine without this. 

If you have no pedal for brakes, at minimum you can gravity bleed.

Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on June 15, 2020, 01:36:05
New master cylinder?  Is it primed? I put a new one in recently and primed it on the bench first.

The master cylinder is not new but I should bench bleed it if I am going to do it by pumping the breaks.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on June 15, 2020, 01:43:12
John,

I use a mityvac on the brakes and clutch on the 250.  It works great.    The 250 has a bleeder on clutch master just above the pedal.  I think other models do not have this bleeder. 

I use the "insert" rubber tip in the mityvac kit - the one that goes inside the bleeder, push and twist.
build up some vacuum and then crack the bleeder very slightly. 

Make sure you have vacuum pressure when you close the bleeder.

You can use pipe tape on the bleeder threads to stop outside air being sucked by vacuum  but I have not needed to do that.  worked just fine without this. 

If you have no pedal for brakes, at minimum you can gravity bleed.

Oz
Maybe I’m not doing it right. I wasn’t building up pressure before I closed the blender. I will try it again thanks

John
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: doitwright on June 15, 2020, 05:40:16
I use a mitivac also. Good tool to have for many tasks. With a hose connected to the mitivac and bleeder you can pump the handle on the vac then just crack the bleeder open til you see brake fluid flow. There is a recommended order I believe. Starting with brake closest to the master cylinder...or is it the furthest?
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: mmizesko on June 29, 2021, 13:59:25
John,

Was at Mid Ohio on Sunday and Joe, Mike Simon and I were wondering when you were going to smash that bottle of Champagne over your front bumper?  You gotta be getting close.

Hope you are well.

Mike
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: ja17 on June 29, 2021, 19:02:48
Hi John, Make sure you did not intstall the brake calipers on the wrong sides.  The bleeder screws must also be at the top of the caliper. If you reverse them the bleeder will be at the bottom and air will stay in the calipers..
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on July 01, 2021, 18:12:33
John,

Was at Mid Ohio on Sunday and Joe, Mike Simon and I were wondering when you were going to smash that bottle of Champagne over your front bumper?  You gotta be getting close.

Hope you are well.

Mike

Thanks for thinking about me Mike and Joe! Unfortunately I haven't had too much time the last 9 months, but hope to have it done later this fall. I had the interior almost completely finished until I put the radio in and noticed there were gaps on the sides. Don't know why we didn't notice it before. I had to remove most of the dash components and interior again, weld in a small filler piece and repaint it. That's done now so its back to reassembly. Also still waiting on my AC vents that have been out for refinishing since March.

I will post some pics of the progress soon.

Take care
John
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on July 16, 2021, 22:50:52
I regards to refinishing I first tried a do-it yourself kit called Easy Chrome.  I was interested in this method as I will be helping my brother with the restoration of his 1970 Mach 1 that has a lot of plastic chrome needing refinishing. Easy chrome sent me bad product a few times and after 2 1/2 months I gave up and sent the vents out to be replated professionally. That took another 2 1/2 months due to some of residue from when I tested the Easy Chrome on one. Anyways they came back this week looking great and I quickly reassembled them with a little bit of crazy glue for re-attaching the control lever.

Now I can finally finish the interior and will post more updates then.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Norm on July 16, 2021, 23:36:29
They look pretty good.

Could you share the vendor / contact information for the professional that did the replating?

Thanks,

Norm
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on July 17, 2021, 01:24:57
They look pretty good.

Could you share the vendor / contact information for the professional that did the replating?

Thanks,
Norm

Sure it was Vacucoat technologies in Clinton Michigan. Turnaround time originally was to be five days but that’s before they ran into the problems caused by my testing the easy chrome on them at first. The cost was $85 per vent  and the original turnaround time was scheduled for five days. However the problems caused them to get set aside for a while and I had to call him a few times. nice guys though and I would recommend them.

The Easy Chrome kit was $150 and that was without the clear that they eventually sent me for free. Better kits start at 300 and go much higher than that so $85 a vent to have them done right  ended up seeming pretty cheap
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on September 05, 2021, 02:54:56
Back to the interior after boating season. To me it’s the most frustrating part of the restoration. Seems each step requires another part that you don’t have or something needs to be repaired like my clock or the Speedo and you have to Waite.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 08, 2021, 13:37:50
Exterior trim question

I am starting to install the exterior trim and want to make sure I put all of the correct rubber trim in place. I have the obvious pieces such as the mirror and door handle plastic grommet. I know I need a rubber seal around the tail lights and under the trunk lock, and of course the gas tank neck, but what else is needed? Authentic classics lists 8.75m of Trim/Seal for the rear panel chrome trim and I have no idea what that is for.

Any help is appreciated.

John
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: MikeSimon on October 08, 2021, 14:04:07
Is it a rubber seal that goes under the trim strip on the rear fender behind the wheel?
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 08, 2021, 14:45:36
Is it a rubber seal that goes under the trim strip on the rear fender behind the wheel?

That’s what I wondered but why would that strip be different than the same strip on the rest of the car amd why would in one place would they list 8.75 m?
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 08, 2021, 18:42:18
Ok Authentic Classics just confirmed that particular rubber is only needed for the trunk trim.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: m300cab on October 28, 2021, 00:52:56
Nice Work, Enjoy!
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: lreppond on October 28, 2021, 01:21:06
I knew that parchment leather with grey-beige metallic paint would look awesome but WOW!  The stain on the wood trim is the perfect brown too.  You should be so proud. 
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on October 28, 2021, 02:09:30
Thanks Len and Michael!
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: mmizesko on November 01, 2021, 01:29:59
when is the coming out party for that beautiful debutante?

Mike
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on November 01, 2021, 03:38:28
Hi mike. Unfortunately the honey-do lists have been a bit demanding lately to say the least and I’m not afforded much time until they are all done.

Actually next I will be starting on restoring the hard top, making sure I have all the weather strips and window rubber. Back window is out and I need to pull the side windows in order to replace the leather strip under the windows. Will also stain the headliner and them put it all back together.

I thought I could do the hard top last but I can’t put the inside door panels on until
I adjust the windows and I can’t adjust the windows until I have my hard top on.  Realized it all when I was trying to get the car weather tight to take it to Joes to get It running right.

Sorry long answer. It takes a lot longer to put things back together right than I could ever have imagined.

I do appreciate you asking though!

John.



Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: mmizesko on November 01, 2021, 13:20:02
I've heard how hard the hardtop job is.

A hardbody like you will make it easy.

Can't wait to see the finished product.

Mike
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on November 02, 2021, 00:44:56
Thanks mike. I am not removing the liner though. Dying it in place so hopefully it won’t be so hard.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Cees Klumper on November 02, 2021, 13:18:48
Yesterday I dyed the headliner in my Lancia Fulvia, was easy and came out looking new. I used the 3 SEM products: soap, another cleaner/adherance promotor and dye/paint. Just mask off and cover everything around because it 'mists' around.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on November 03, 2021, 04:01:16
Yesterday I dyed the headliner in my Lancia Fulvia, was easy and came out looking new. I used the 3 SEM products: soap, another cleaner/adherance promotor and dye/paint. Just mask off and cover everything around because it 'mists' around.

Thanks Cees. Doing it myself would be a lot easier than hauling the top to a shop. Can I ask where you got the die and were you able to use an original color?

Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Cees Klumper on November 03, 2021, 04:10:22
I got the SEM products off Amazon. They have a range of colors, I just chose the lightest white ('Carver white') since that is my personal preference. The whole process took less than an hour:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B073T6VQQM?ref=ppx_yo2_tab_ap_product_details&th=1

Here's some photos in my Lancia forum thread (post #365):

http://lancisti.net/wbb/index.php?thread/11303-1972-fulvia-1-3-coupe-in-long-beach-ca-restoration/&pageNo=19
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: doitwright on November 03, 2021, 05:34:59
Thanks mike. I am not removing the liner though. Dying it in place so hopefully it won’t be so hard.

Hmm

If you plan to dye the headliner that must mean it is stained. When I removed mine, I believe some of the staining was from the 90% disintegrated foam behind the liner. To go as far as removing the window seals and not replacing the headliner should be considered carefully.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on November 03, 2021, 11:27:54
Hi frank. It has water stains from a leak. Perhaps I will take a look at replacing the headliner while it’s all apart. I have not read much on that process yet other than hearing it’s a real PITA.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on November 05, 2021, 17:19:53
Hmm

If you plan to dye the headliner that must mean it is stained. When I removed mine, I believe some of the staining was from the 90% disintegrated foam behind the liner. To go as far as removing the window seals and not replacing the headliner should be considered carefully.

Great input Frank thank you. Reading the info available on this forum more closely I realize replacing the headliner itself it’s not the big part of the job. Ordering a new one from GAT today.  Only $200 including shipping.

Any additional tips from members who have done this themselves is greatly appreciated.

John.

John
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on February 08, 2022, 17:40:14
I took Mr. Doitwright’s (frank) advice and replaced the headliner before I completed the assembly of my hard top. For those of you that have not done that before  you can see below how digesting it can be behind the original headliners.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on February 08, 2022, 17:57:52
Below is the new headliner  before the rear window install.  I went through two new headliners as on the first attempt I started gluing everything per Gernald’s instructions and I could not get all of the wrinkles out when gluing the last parts. What I found that works is to completely clip the headliner in place with office binder clips so you can continue to adjust the material in all areas until the wrinkles go away. Don’t glue anything until you have it down exactly like you want it.

A second mistake causing me to go through two headliners was spraying the glue on. The glue should only go on the very sides of the top where the chrome trim covers the headliner. The first time around I got some of the glue on the foam beneath the headliner which causes the headliner to stick down in those spots rather than stretching across to the other sides. This leaves an unsightly indent in the headliner where it sticks to the foam. I corrected this the second time around by taping off the foam around the edges when I sprayed the glue. I must admit I did see a few of these bad indents on some of the pics of professional installs on this site. I think Dr. Benz said it earlier that a good restoration requires the patience (and time) to walk away and do something over again when it isn't right. I've had to walk away a lot lately!
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on February 08, 2022, 18:06:55
My first attempt at installing the quarter windows in the hard top did not go well as I was following a more recent advice on this site to install the windows with the hard top right side up. I don’t know what I was doing wrong but I just could not get the windows down enough in the bottom Chanel to push the rest of the window in.

When I flipped the top upside down it only took about 15 minutes per side to install the windows by myself. I used my hands to pull the window up into the bottom Chanel and was almost able to push the rest in with my hands. I used very thin metal scrapers to wedge the top of the windows into the Chanel’s. Using thin scrapers as wedges gave the windows more room to slide past the wedge and into the channels. see side view of the scrapers below.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Leester on February 08, 2022, 20:43:34
Not sure I will undertake to do this job myself but the documentation of your experience is likely to be very helpful to someone who does - and it might be me, so thank you for your postings. Often times its knowing what didn't work is more important.
One aspect of this restoration that I hope you can post about is installing the trim pieces around that window. When I disassembled my top, I had a lot of difficulty with the horizontal trim strip (can't recall there might have been 2) just underneath the quarter window glass. If you have a chance to document installing that (or those) that would really be helpful, as was this post!.  Thanks in advance. Lee
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: johnk on February 08, 2022, 23:19:14
Lee

I had problems removing the same trim piece thinking that is what was keeping the window  from fitting in the bottom Chanel. Turns out it has no affect and does not need to be removed to install window. I installed
The other side just fine with that piece in.

A recommendation I have is to use caulk behind the trim around the quarter windows rather  than the adhesive strips recommended by gernold. It’s easier to tighten the trim piece closer to the top with caulk leaving more room for the window instal. Gernold suggests using the adhesive strips as they have less of a chance of oozing onto the headliner. However the headliner can be protected easily by just taping it off next to where the trim is to be installed.
Title: Re: I rolled my pagoda last night...
Post by: Leester on February 09, 2022, 16:59:30
Thanks John, that's good to know!