Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: Pawel66 on June 04, 2017, 19:19:40
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I continue struggle with my idle. Spent a couple of hours clicking the idle screw left (10-15), then the main rack screw right (5). Next day I drove to a technical inspection to get the readings of the exhaust. Below on the pictures is what I got (zbyt duzo means too much, bogata means rich).
I guess I have to continue clicking or remove the shims from the barometric compensator... but it is getting to be a lot of clicks. Feels strange.
I have new injectors, I have non-leaking CSV, I do not hear any air from the WRD. Anything else "central" or "major" I should check that is driving the mixture rich?
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These are old cars. If your engine is worn i.e. hasn't been rebuilt you shouldn't expect miracles. Your readings aren't horrible. What MPG do you get? Fill to the brim, drive a lot, re-fill to the brim.
Also do the linkage tour on the member site. It may take a few times to get it to sit perfectly. Check the timing. Do the valves. And so on.
All the info you need is on the site and it's excellent. None of the jobs are difficult.
Oce you've done that (and forgive me if you have done so already) go back to your gauge and check again. It would be interesting to see what the new readings are.
I'd certainly do all of this before going anywhere near the barometric compensator.
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James, thank you!
I have been through all this :). Going to the meters is one of the last steps. Engine is rebuilt and runs great at higher speeds. Idle is an issue. My worry is: I kept leaning it quite a lot - you see where I am.
I guess time for a couple of checks and perhaps time for radical shims removal... if there are shims under BC to remove...
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Ok, done some tests...
On picture "idle only" you see 6 plugs after 10 minutes engine run on idle only.
On picture "after drive" you see cylinder 3 and 5 and 6 for comparison.
Plug 3 was dry in both cases. No smell of gas.
When I pull the lead from cylinder 3 while engine is running at idle, no difference in the way engine is running. So no. 3 does not work on idle. It works while driving - the colour of the plug changed, but is much much leaner than the other cylinders.
Apparently when the idle mixture was richer, and the no. 3 plug was as sooty as the rest (we looked at them at that time), the cylinder was getting some fuel. When we leaned mixture - it stopped. It is also getting less fuel on higher revs than other cylinders, but it is getting something.
I edited the post to add: engine is running much smoother when it is warming up. I think it is because the WRD is increasing fuel supply and it is enough for cylinder 3 to work. Then after, say, half a minute or a bit more, the engine revs slow down. And they start being uneven. This is when less fuel is supplied as WRD is off. There are no other start aids - just the CSV that works for 12 seconds maximum, and WRD. I have no solenoid on FIP.
What I figure, we have FIP, fuel line and injector that can be responsible. We have recently had FIP on the bench as we had to re-install it (we figured it was reversed 180 degrees before). We checked for plungers movements etc. and everything seemed to be fine.
Line - we were aware that after applying zinc during restoration the line may get clogged. So it was checked for that.
Injector - I thought I had all of them new (I lost my records from that time :-\). But I can see 5 injectors are bronze colour, the injector no. 3 is aluminum colour, which makes it automatically a suspect (just because it is different). I will start with the injector replacement.
Please write what you think - any advise is helpful.
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You should be paying attention to the "HC" reading from the pictures. They are WAY too high.
"HC" stands for "Hydrocarbon" is basically unburned fuel.
Your readings are telling you that you have a combustion problem; not all of the fuel that is being injected is getting burned. Ideally they should be around 500, not 3000!
You need to start with the basics:
Check cam timing.
Check condition of cam.
Check valve clearances.
Check compressions.
FIT NEW SPARK PLUGS.
Check & adjust points using a dwell meter.
Check ignition timing.
Once you have done all that you can start to look for failed leads either with an ohmmeter or better still, an engine analyser, or what I do, pull off the plug leads one at a time (yes, engine running and you might get a shock but once you're used to it it's actually pretty harmless) to see if you get any change in RPM or engine note.
You can also see the HC reading rise when you disconnect the plug lead (because the fuel is definitely not getting burned now!) and you can use this reading to help you identify any cylinder that doesn't raise the HC when the lead is disconnected.
If you notice a lack of change in RPM or engine note then that cylinder is not firing. Swap that lead to a different cylinder, eg: swap lead 4 & 5 AT BOTH ENDS! and see if you can move the fault to a different cylinder. If you can then you know that the lead (or most probably just the cap) is faulty.
You can do the same with injectors; swap them over and see if you can move the fault to a different cylinder.
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Stick, thank you. This is a good lead.
I think I need to sort out cylinder no. 3 issue. The plug was just dry when I took it out. I think with this one there is a fuel delivery problem.
And you are right - I should follow up on the HC reading if this is the case, as you described, thank you. Most of the checks you listed I did. But what you wrote makes me think that maybe the inlet valve on cylinder 3 is not opening as it should... We set the valve clearances very thoroughly recently. We checked compression. I have now 123 ignition with settings as recommended on this forum and the car is driving very well with them. All the leads and plugs are new, we were looking at sparks onall cylinders - blue and solid. Plugs have maybe 1000km.
I think I need to sort out the cylinder 3, try to get the engine work even at idle with mixture close to what it should be - then have the reading again and see CO and hydrocarbon.
Thank you for bringing this!
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You'll probably find that if you get your HC to come down your CO will go up because CO is a product of combustion.
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Sounds like a threat ;) ;)
Thanks, I tend to think if I decrease amount of fuel supplied, I will probably get both down. I just need to have the No. 3 kick in. Then we will see what will happen.
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Ok, did next step. I removed the Barometric Compensator to check it and look at the shims I have there. No shims :(. Just one thin, more a seal than a real shim. Nothing to take out and make the mixture leaner if need be.
But...
My BC was stuck, of course. But not the way they are usually stuck (I was not looking into it because the usual fault of BC makes the mixture leaner, which was opposite to what I had). It was stuck in some regular position. Maybe because of plating... I made it move. It reacts to pressure changes (took a vacuum food box from my wife). Perhaps it will stick a little bit more out now.
Checked WRD again - quite a noise, dies out as engine warms up, revs go down, noise stops, normal idle. So it seems ok.
Waiting for injector to replace for cylinder 3. If it is not the cause, then line, valve and cam, FIP.
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Paweł
Be brave :)
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I was. I took that vacuum box from my wife.
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Ok, here is where I am:
1. I replaced the injector on cylinder 3 - no change, cylinder 3 leaner than others.
2. I swapped injetors - cylinder 3 still leaner than others, so injectors are ok.
3. I removed and cleaned the fuel line to cylinder 3. It was ok, I think - clear air blow goes through it, when you inject some gas on one end (with injection needle, as the holes are just 1mm on both ends), it immediately flows from another end.
So injectors are ok and line 3 clear.
I measured how much fuel is coming out of the lines, before injectors at starter speed. I disconnected the lines, placed a file under and measured during 15 seconds engine crancking (one ofter the other, not simultaneously during one crancking). I received 0.4ml from line no. 3 and 1ml on line no. 6. So more than double the amount of fuel.
Now the important question is: shall I conclude my trouble is in less fuel delivered to cylinder 3?
If it is so, the next step is FIP and the next part in FIP is the check valve. and the next step could be swapping the check valves (I abviously do not have one). Would you agree? What else can I check?
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I agree that the issue seems to be with the amount of fuel delivered by the pump. I don't think the check valve would influence that, only stops the fuel from leaking back out of the line into the pump when the engine is off if I am not mistaken. So during operation, the check valve should not influence the amount of fuel going to the injector. Perhaps the little piston for cylinder no 3 is stuck it its bore inside the FI pump? Just a wild guess. Best I suppose would be to take the pump to a specialist to have it checked.
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Cees, thank you for your voice there.
Last time we had IP on the bench the rack was moving freely and the pistons were moving up and down and rotating, the cylinders pins were in place. Yes, I have to check the rack movement now as well as see if the piston in line 3 is moving after disconnecting the line and removing the fitting and check valve - I will do it in one session probably next Friday.
Sending IP for check and repair is something I would like to avoid - the only place here to do it is the Bosch service with very bad reputation. That is where my IP was rebuild and I seem to have issues with it...
Section 3 in the pump gives fuel, just less than other sections. Could be the piston gets stuck from time to time or its cylinder rotates with it from time to time. But I thought if the check valve is there to hold fuel up in the line and it is not holding, each time the piston goes down, some fuel goes down as well. I know there is fuel pressure in the IP, but there is also pressure in the line. Could be too simplistic thinking or not being aware of other facts of course
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At this point I would be sending the pump to a specialist for o/haul/calibration.
There's one here in the UK that everyone uses and is excellent.
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Yes, it may end up this way, thank you. I will be kindly asking for e-mail/webpage most likely.
I will just check the valve and look at the piston travel - it is a relatively easy check. If that does not bring results, I guess I will have to send the pump for repair.
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I am after the next round of activities, it feels like I did not progress much...
So let me provide an update for the next generations and to ask for your kind advise.
First of all: I made a mistake last week measuring the amount of fuel I got from fuel lines. Yestarday I had my mechanic help me in the garage and he said that for the measurement of amount of fuel I should have waited until I have fuel dripping from the lines and then put the syringe under to measure the amount. My mistake.
To cut the long story short, after swapping the check valves in the pump and cleaning/blowing them, then measuring the fuel delivered I have:
1. Spark plug on cylinder 3 is dry (when running on idle for 5-10min) and it has very bright, very lean color; the rest of the plugs are sooty, like too rich. It is same as on the picture posted above).
2. When I pull the leads off the plugs when engine is running - I have very visible effect on cylinders 1,2,4 and 6, a bit weaker effect on cylinder 5 and a very faint effect on cylinder 3. The engine changes note when you pull the lead on cylinder 3, but it is a change that is hard to notice.
3. The amount of fuel delivered from lines (before the injector) either at the IP or at the end of the line is 0.8-0.9ml for line 3 and 1.1-1.2 on line e.g. 6. This is 15 seconds crancking (separate for both measurements, linkage at idle). So the difference is there, but not as substantial as I thought.
4. While we had the IP with check valves removed, I verified that the pistons are moving up and down and the cylinders are not rotating. The IP rack moves freely and it comes back to where you pushed it from.
5. I swapped the ignition leads of cyl 3 with cyl 2, but the effect stayed with cylinder 3 (to follow an advise of one of you).
6. I did a lot of other check ups as per your advise and as per what i managed to find in the forum (e.g. compression, engine timing, CSV, WRD etc). I have 123 ignition.
7. I have no other symptoms of the misperformance of the car than vibration on idle, overall going rich with cylinder 3 semi-working. It starts and runs great.
My questions would be:
1. Overall - what do you think? :)
2. Given the smaller difference in fuel delivery (say 0.85 vs. 1.15ml) - is fuel delivery the likely reason for weak work of cyl 3 or I shall look elsewhere (additional air coming through the manifold gasket, valve not opening fully, cam wear etc.)?
3. Shall I check the fuel delivery after injectors? I have eliminated injector as a cause before. What I am after is that some diffferences in fuel delivery may be off set anyway by opening pressure of the injector. There are also some tolerances there...
It is an important point as I think for fuel delivery I did what I could in the garage. I would have to send the IP for repair - long time, lots of money etc. without being sure if the fuel delivery difference can be the cause of trouble.
Please kindly let me know your thoughts.
Pawel
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if you remove your return valve you should feel the IP nr3 piston move up and down.. ( do this with an toothpick)
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Thank you!
Did that. It does move up and down. As I wrote: the piston moves up and down, the cylinder is not turning with it, the rack moves freely and comes back to where it was when pushed.
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If you where a bit closer to me i could lend you my spare IP
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Thank you! This is the idea I would not dare to ask... but it would be very useful indeed! The distance is not that big and I would pay for courier and insurance certainly.
Look, I do not have the specs for the IP and tolerances of variance for fuel delivery between cylinders. All I know is what was mentioned on the forum on injector opening pressure tolerance, which is quite substantial.
What I think I would do, if there is no other advise on the forum, is a couple of simple checks of the other possible causes:
1. I would check the fuel delivery after injectors on line 3 and other line (I am just not sure here if to cranck the engine or just run it). See what the diffrence is there.
2. Check the current clearance for inlet valve on cyl. 3. When we set it some months ago it was on the spec, let's see what is it now.
3. Check the cam height (I think I can do it when I have the cam in level position) vs. other cams heights.
4. Look at the valve if it looks or moves different than the other inlet valves.
5. Check for "unauthorised" air caught from the side - I guess spraying some starter near the intake manifold gasket would tell if this is a problem.
There must be a bloody reason for this cylinder to be so lean...
These are relatively simple and inexpensive tests. Even if I have to remove cylinder head to do something with the vlave or if I have to have new camshaft manufactured - this is no problem and not too high cost.
The biggest worry is that I cannot fix the IP in Poland. The shops here are perfect with diesel. A pump like ours - no spares, no specs and overall - a mystery. I had my pump done at Bosch - well, it works in essence, but you see we are struggling with it. When I pulled out check valves, they had old gaskets... It takes months to have them look at it. So I have to send it abroad. It is costly, so I will have beans for dinner for a month, but it may be a lot of time - and the season is just starting...
Thank you again for your kind attention!
Pawel
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Pm me
Mark
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Let me please provide further update on the topic. I am doing as for me the biggest value lays in those threads that were describing activites and ended with positive results.
I did the checks I was describing in the previous posts:
1. We sprayed quite an amount of flammables around the places that could be suspected of letting the unauthorised air into the cylinder 3 (manifold, injector, CSV, etc.). Nothing.
2. Checked the clearances of valves, shapes and condition of rockers and other elements, particularly the ball pins, compared conditions of valves in cylinder 3 to others. We found nothing that would be out of norm or diffferent.
3. Checked the cam hights - differences between cams heights for inlet valves were 0.1mm. So cams are ok. Not worn, visibly ok.
4. Then we did another measurement of fuel delivery - from injectors: all cylinders, one after the other, 30seconds, engine running on idle. Here the amounts were 6 to 6.5ml, but cylinder 3 had 5ml. Now: the tolerances in Bosch specs on fuel delivery are small, around 5% for higher speeds and around 15% for idle if I read it right. My difference is 25-30%.
So I guess this is it. I have to fix the pump. Since I did the exercise with the check valves (and this is the only thing I could do myself), what I think I will do - my mechanic will take the pump to the place where it was fixed - Bosch. And will stay there so that they fix it when he is there. We will see what will come out of that. I think they are able to regulate the flow if you make sure they really do it. I will not have to pay for rebuild as I did that before.
I have made the mixture richer again so that the cylinder 3 runs for now untli we are scheduled at the service.
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Please be sure to come back with the results for the sake of future readers. Unfinished threads are very irritating.
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Certainly, will do.
I find it very tempting - it must be fairly easy to adjust volume of fuel per section in the FIP. I see there are these screws there under every plunger - maybe they are there for this purpose... Curious what will happen when you turn them a bit...
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You are correct in your assumption that the screws under the plunger if unscrewed allow the plunger to be moved left or right so that more or less fuel is delivered to the injector.
It is not a good idea to carry out this operation insitu, the pump should be removed and placed on a calibration machine so that all six plungers can be set equal.
I would suggest that the operator did not carry out the calibration with enough care.
I have some experience with setting up these plungers (albeit on diesel engines, same principle) and it is a very time consuming exercise to get it correct, you need the patience of Jobe.
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Eric,
Thank you! It is even more tempting now... What can go wrong? ;)
It is probably a balancing act: when you allow more movement to have more flow for some, the others may pump less. So it looks like a lot of trials and checks in the garage without precise result probably.
Operation carried out with not enough care? This is very very likely.
What you say is giving hope that this is just a calibration exercise and not some fault that would require spares etc.
Thanks!
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"It is even more tempting now... What can go wrong? ;)"
OMG - please be careful with that phrase! Whenever my friend and I set up for a job, be it regular maintenance or something "simple" the Pagoda never ceases to surprise us with something.
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:) That's the fun part of it!
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Pawel,
If you are going to ! Have A Go ! can I suggest that you connect a pipe to the injector pump outlet on say number one, bend the pipe over until it is pointing down, place a small measuring container under the pipe, crank the engine for 15 seconds and note the result (you could do this on all cylinders if you wanted to).
Connect up the pipe to your suspected cylinder/ outlet and crank/run engine for 30 seconds compare the two results, if there is a large discrepancy you can undo the screw and turn the unit a small amount (and I mean a small amount) carry out the 15 second test, you will have to do this several times until you are happy with your calibration.
If you are not happy with the results then you will have to remove the pump and send it to the repair facility for calibration.
As you have had the pump at a Bosch service station then the item should be under warranty, if you carry out the above and find that number three is incorrect, I would urge you to send the pump back and inform them of your findings, they then should carry out the calibration FOC.
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Eric,
Thanks again!
The bent piece of line connected to the fitting on the pump - this is exactly what I did to measure fuel delivery to eliminate the fuel line being clogged! Happy we figured out the right way to do it!
I have the measurements noted to know what the delivery should be. It was 0.85ml on suspected cylinder per 15 sec cranking and 1.15 on others.
The three questions I would have are:
1. If I have the square plate of the pump unscrewed (to see the plunger units) while cranking - I guess I would have a flood of oil coming out - true or false? If true, it is probably about unscrewing the plate, moving unit, screwing it back, cranking to measure.
2. If I want to increase fuel - do I push the left side of the unit in or the right side? In other words: do I turn it clockwise to increase (looking from above) or CCW? This is to improve my chances by 50% to save one iteration - I do not think I will be able to see how the helix detent is cut in the plunger to determine the direction. From the rack movement - it should be CCW, I guess ???.
3. Finally, just to make sure I mean the same things: I undo the screw on the element from the picture called "gear" and I turn the "gear/plunger" - is this correct? I think this "clamp" with a screw is a separate element, connecting with rack. I am attaching a scetch with what I think is a plunger unit similar to ours. I undo the screw 11 in clamp 10 and turn 9 with the bottom of 13. Is it correct?
I know I will never get it perfect this way.
Yes, it was a Bosch service - almost three years ago... warranty is gone. I have already called them, they said they would be happy to help and say sorry if they did not do it right. So it is not about the money, it is about lots of work and time. Therefore I am tempted to try to do it roughly now and send the pump in the winter.
What is even more important: can you imagine my level of satisfaction if I manage to improve the fuel delivery? 8) 8) 8)
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Pawel,
In answer to your query -
1 - Yes you will have oil gushing out of the pump with the front cover off, if the pump was on a calibration machine only a small amount of oil is put in the pump therefore there will be no excess to come out.
2 - It is many years since I carried out this operation and the pumps I was used to were CAV and Simms units as fitted to British commercial vehicles. Your first adjustment will have to be trial and error.
3 - Slightly undo the screw and turn the element/plunger that the gear (you cannot turn the gear it is aligned to the rack) is clamping, there is a special tool for this operation but I feel sure you can manufacture something to do the job.
I can understand your reluctance to remove the pump but it is not too arduous and you would get the unit calibrated correctly (this time) with the Bosch service centre, they would want to do it correctly this time.
Are you doing this yourself or paying a mechanic to do the job?
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Eric,
Thank you again! We will then see how it goes when my mechanic comes to me to either try to calibrate or to remove the pump to take it to the service - we can open the flap, see if the screw can be undone easily, see what we would need to make adjustment etc. It is true, it takes us about 1-1.5hrs to take the pump out, it is not a major catastrophy. May just get a bit messy...
Yes, I would do it with my mechanic - for this I am not paying for as this is part of overall car delivery - just happens late ;)
By the way - I found another place in Poland, another Bosch service who have the appropriate testing table for our pumps and a set of specs for R25 and other types - they may just not have experience yet. I am sure we will try them next time. Just calibration (no spares, no extra time for repairs etc.) is $170 - can live with that. The current Bosch service we use is quite far and away from motorways from Warsaw, very inconvenient if you want to go there yourself ("far" for European standards, of course).
Thank you for your kind attention!
Pawel
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Short update again...
My mechanic helped me with my dilemmas whether to do the calibration ourselves or take it to Bosch: he looked at me, went to the car, removed the IP and took it to Bosch...
In the Bosch service it took them 1.5 hours to set up the test table for this type of IP and then 15 minutes to check it and calibrate it to specs. The fuel delivery was way off between the lines, around 30%.
They said sorry and took no money.
Most likely we will install the IP tomorrow. Thrilled to see if it helps...
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Pawel, you might consider turnig the Ip on correct timing point marks and take measurement on 1 outgoing fuel line (like the toothpick method).
Then after mounting you can easily check if timing is spot on.
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Yes, thank you! It is another important point! I have actually exercised this and I did have the IP reversed before - I thought at some stage this was the reason for my idle issue. It was the classic "first cylinder - first fuel line" mistake!
So - thank you! I am very familiar with it as I read all the posts and procedures for timing the pump: the 20 degree ATDC in power stroke and the marks on the pump and where the plunger in line 1 should be and, what is very important - which fitting is for line to cylinder 1. 8)
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The IP is in the car.
The shaking idle is gone!!! I do not want to praise the day before the sunset, but I had a chance for a short ride and idle is just a bit rough - but I think this time it may be tuning as the car runs rich. But it is completely different form what it was before!
Need a couple of hours to check the basics again and try to tune the car. I hope this will be it!
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Click after click (on the main adjustment screw for now) the plugs are getting brown. Looks like now we are talking (fingers crossed). I will do the proper measurement of CO and other unpleasant gases as soon as I get the required combination of Sunday, nice weather and the guy in the only car testing station that is open on Sunday nearby is not on holidays. This may be this Sunday.
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Still waiting to see what HC you have now!
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I will come back with the final one, I have not forgotten. It is just taking some time due to factors listed above We did another adjustment last Friday but could not go to the station to do the measurement...
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Just for update and maybe to proboke some comments. Sunday week ago was a perfrct combination of all factors to go to examination station and get the CO reading - went there, to find out the guy took the instruments to calibration. Be back on Tuesday >:(.
What we found in the meantime, however, was that while the valve nests were ground, the thrust washers (shims) were left nominal, 4.5mm. Maybe this is why I am getting too much mixture to cylinders...
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I've followed each post on this thread and wonder how or if the problem was resolved by Bosche rebuild of your injection pump?
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They just adjusted it, they have rebuilt it earlier. The adjustment was about making the pump deliver even amounts of fuel per cylinder. It is fine now.
I have now good idle, light brown spark plugs and by split linkage test the mixture seems to be more or less in balance. I got to the point where, when I select a gear (4 or R) on automatic transmission, I do not really feel or hear the revs change.
What I still have not done is the CO, CO2 and HC tests to check where I am on these. Now the weather is awful and I do not move the car from the garage, so, unless there is a nice day in the winter, I will check the parameters in the spring. My attention went now to camshaft that, as I figured, is not in the shape I would like it to be.
But I am not sure if IP is your concern. I started doing it because I had uneven idle and I was figuring out why, did some tests and discovered IP issue. You may want to focus on simple things we listed maybe.
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If for some reason the rough idle returns I would keep in mind that a leak between the top of the pump barrel and the delivery valve could also cause low delivery. The barrel seals to the delivery valve with no sealant and rely's only on the flatness of the surfaces so any dirt or imperfection can cause an internal leak in the pump where fuel would leak back to the fuel supply.
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Hi At idle an engine should be burning 4-6 ml/min. Say 1ml/min from each piston. Seems they ought to be within 5% of each other. Carbs do better!!?? At 60 mph that's 250 ml/min. 15 mpg or so.
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Looking back over my notes from when I had my pump calibrated by Jerry Fairchild he told me that the FIP should put out 16cc (16ml) at idle. My pump is for a 280.
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When I was testing this with fuel lines dripping fuel to a file or syringe, I did not know the specs, but I was after the amounts for cylinders being equal or not. And they were 20-30% off... Now I have specs for R25, but it is difficult to recreate the conditions of measurement and the specs are giving amounts by given number of piston strokes. So what you are providing is very valuable.