Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: rgafitanu@gmail.com on July 19, 2016, 14:53:08
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Hello,
It has been hot the past couple of month in MA. About 3 weeks ago I had to add water to the engine, about 2 qts. I thought that it evaporated (the W111 doesn't have an expansion tank). Then yesterday I had to add another 2.5 qts. I became suspicious, I pulled the dipstick and to my horror it was full of orange goo, the valve cover cap showing the same (see pictures).
I am certain this started over the last 6 weeks. I remember checking the oil and it was clean and to level. I retorqued the head bolts maybe 6 months ago.
The engine runs very well, a few weeks back I pulled all the spark plugs and they were all consistently on the rich mixture side. There is no smoke on the pipe to suspect that coolant or oil made it's way into the cylinders (the engine is a 230).
From the posts here it appears that if I am lucky I may have some loose head bolts. If not then it's the head gasket. It wouldn't be the first head gasket that I replaced in my life but the rusty/seized exhaust manifold bolts worry me.
Anybody has any suggestions?
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Best way to approach this is to pressure test the cooling system. Pressurize the cooling system to 1 bar and look for external leaks. Use a pressure tester with a gauge. If the needle drops and there are no external leaks then chances are the head gasket is bad. You may get away with retorquing the head but thats a long shot. Usually there is head gasket material missing or the head could be warped.
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This brings a question to mind ... 2 years ago my head cover was removed (without my permission while exploring for leaks) once the head cover was reinstalled some leaks were found. The leak was stopped by re-torqing the head cover bolts.
My Question is; "How often can the head cover gasket be re-used?"
Dieter
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Tyler, I tried yesterday for leaks. I do not have good equipment for that. I have a compressor but I would need the proper fittings to try to connect to the radiator cap. I have no doubts the coolant is going into the oil. In one month more than a gallon of water was gone and I didn't see one drop under the car or anywhere else. Meanwhile the dipstick tube is filled with orange paste which appears to be inside the valve cover as well.
So, if I am lucky the bolts need retorquing or the gasket bought the farm. I will warm it up and check the bolts, drain the oil/orange stuff and add new oil to see if the retorquing solved it. If not the head would have to come off. The only silver lining to this is that I may get to find the cause of the rocker noise that didn't go away after valve adjustments.
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From the pictures it looks like either a blown head gasket or a cracked cylinder head.
Keith
Factory trained MBZ master Technician since 1993
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Hello, on the 230 engine you can safely go 5 lbs over specs on the torque. That may help. Be sure to loosen the radiator cap before beginning the process.
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I agree with Joe. Anything more than 5 lbs extra torque can pull metal in the block.
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I think you should just take the head off and overhaul it. I would never expect an engine that has contaminated its' oil with water to that extent to be reliable without proper repairs.
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Yesterday I removed the valve cover and what I found is below. The orange foam is everywhere.
I retorqued all the bolts to 70 ftlbs. On all of them the wrench clicked before breaking loose so I do not think there was any serious loosening. Looking again at these pictures I think that changing the oil/filter and run it to see if retorquing solved the leak would only be a waste of $35 for oil/filter.
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I think your going to want to remove the head. Check for warpage and inspect the valves and guides while you have it apart. It would be a good idea to pull the small oil pan and clean that area out as well.
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I agree it looks like you will have to remove the cylinder head, from reading your re-torqueing procedure it would appear that you did not release each individual stud separately before re-torqueing.
It is worth informing members that when re-torqueing a cylinder head that the radiator cap is removed (pressure released) and each stud is backed off (undone) before re applying the torque.
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Really would be good if you could pressure test the cooling system. There are 3 welsh plugs on the top of the cylinder head under the camshaft that can also leak coolant into the valvetrain area. Not common but it is a possibility and would not require head removal. Its good to check all possibilities before condemning anything. A local auto parts store may be able to rent you a coolant system pressure tester. It's basically a hand pump with a gauge. Since no adapters are available for our style coolant bottle flange/cap, you would need one that tees into a heater or radiator hose.
Here is one I modified using an old w113 radiator cap. Recently used it on another members car to rule out a head gasket issue.
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I did release each bolt individually before retorquing it and then move to the next from the center outwards (forgot to mention). I did not remove the radiator cap when I retorqued the bolts for the first time 6 months ago, I did not know and possibly that created the leak.
Tyler, I will try to make some fitting to pressure test, you gave me some hope. I witnessed a few blown gaskets and there is always a lot more, smoke, noise, rough running, overheating and I have none of these. The engine runs perfect, not a puff of smoke at start or later.
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I have found some head bolts through-drilled into the water jacket from the factory. This could cause your situation and not a blown head gasket. You car runs great, that is not the case with most blown head gaskets!
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Pull your plugs and have a look at them. If one of them is really clean then the head gasket or cracked head is most likely. Head gaskets rarely fail between a water jacket and oil return hole. But it is possible. Which could explain the engine running fine. Theres no coolant gettng to the combustion chamber.
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Yesterday I held the compressor hose to the cap vent while holding a rubber bloc to the cap to put some pressure on the system. Being the highest point I was hoping to see coolant bubbles somewhere, at the plugs or at the oil holes but nothing, no noise except some hissing which could have been from the cap (the only place with air).
I just pulled the plugs and as you can see they all look the same. I am thinking of draining, cleaning everything including the bottom pan and run it again. Maybe the retorquing closed the leak.
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The orange tinge on 2 of the plugs indicates either you use octane booster or it is indeed eating coolant. (water or coolant + high temp + steel = oxidation)
What happens is the coolant is only getting into the cylinders when the engine is off after a drive because the cooling system is still under pressure and the head is slowly getting thinner due to temp drop. When the engine is running the combustion pressure and slightly larger head thickness can keep most of the coolant out.
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Hello RG - -
Sorry to say this, but I fear the worst for you and your situation.
On my engine the cylinder head corrosion was so bad it was declared scrap metal by Metric Motors.
No amount of squeezing down the head bolts is going to replace metal that is not metal any more.
Larry in CA
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.../...On my engine the cylinder head corrosion was so bad it was declared scrap metal .../...
Whoaa...
Larry, any indication how the head came to end up in such a bad condition? E.g. service history, type of coolant etc.
In other words, what to avoid, he he.
Two of the cover plates on the right side of the block look like they were self-made(?) for instance, and what is the plate at right front?
/Hans S
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Hans, one thing I have seen from working on cars of all makes/models is the yellow or "gold" coolant just doesnt hold up. It starts going south very quickly and its color also masks visible rust or corrosion in the cooling system. Change to the blue MB type or other coolant. Other mfg such as VW have been using this since the 2000's.
Regardless, check Ph levels and change your coolant.
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I guess it doesn't make any sense to put oil and filter hoping that retorquing fixed it. I should start taking the head off. I looked closer at the plugs and indeed on two of them the ground electrode has some orange tint.
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I just took a picture, coolant is coming out of cylinder 4 which is also the plug with the orange tint. I guess I'm taking the head off. This process has been documented here before but maybe I should post it with pictures.
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Here is a thread I started back in Feb when I removed my head for reconditioning. Took a lot of pictures and documented some steps. Let me know if you need some pointers. ;)
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=23889.0
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Tyler, I read your thread about 4 times. I drained the coolant yesterday, pulled the exhaust heat shield and sprayed PB Blaster on the manifolds' nuts. I will start today and one question is about the coolant port for the sensors. Is it possible to unscrew the port from the head with the others still attached to it. I would like not to mess with the temperature tube.
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Yes it can be removed after the coolant hose to the wrd is removed. It just barely clears the IP but its do-able. Then tuck it over by the subframe mount opening. Take your injection and coolant lines off the car. Gives you a whole lot more room.
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Does it come out by unscrewing the large nut next to the head or by the bolt on the side (or that one is a drain)?
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The smaller bolt on the back of the coolant jacket. It is a long through bolt that threads into the large hex collar on the head. You wont be able to completely remove the bolt because of the IP clearance. It will come out with the coolant jacket.
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I guess I will not be able to slide the head lateral to avoid removing the exhaust manifolds. It doesn't appear to be enough room towards the IP.
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I ended up pulling mine as it frees up a lot of room. Not much left to do so. The fuel lines, bracket at the rear, and the 3 mounting bolts/nuts. Find a safe clean place for it. You will also be able to verify correct IP timing when it goes back together.
Dont forget about the 2 small allen bolts in the front of the head. One is hidden in the chain tensioner oil pool.
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It was way faster than I thought. Exhaust manifolds came out easy, I was able to retrieve the camshaft washer that I dropped in the chain well. I just can't see the culprit. It's obvious that there is water leaking in cylinder 4 but I can't see any corrosion, gaps or anything to make me say "Gotcha".
I will get a straight edge to check flatness and I will check valve sealing. I will probably remove the springs to check on seals, I'm trying to find the source of the rocker noise, so far rockers don't show any sign of hitting the spring.
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And the cylinder head.
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There is quite a bit of staining on the head gasket between cyl 4 and 5. Is most likely your problem area. Carefully remove the head gasket and have a look at the other side as well as the water jackets in the block. The head gasket at the top (drivers side) water jacket of cyl 4 on your last block pic looks compromised. The corresponding water jacket in the head looks extremely enlarged/corroded
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Check the bore carefully, a few years ago we had to replace the block due to a crack (lengthwise) in the cylinder wall.
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You may have to have the head pressure checked. I have seen a 250 head develop a pin hole high up in the combustion chamber of the head. Old coolant slowly eats away at the aluminum casting until a pin hole develops, then you have a mysterious leak into the combustion chamber.
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I don't see anything obvious. First 2 picture show cylinders 5-4. Third picture shows the head combustion chambers 5-4. The "hole" under exhaust valve 4 is solid, maybe a plug.
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Next picture is the block side of the gasket at 4-5 and the last is the head side. I checked the flatness and I couldn't fit a 0.003 feeler under the straight edge but a 0.0025 did go through. I will have to clean these surfaces and get a better edge.
What can I use to clean these surfaces? Alcohol, scraper, die grinder (kidding)?
Do I have to use new head bolts?
BTW trying to get the camshaft bolt off I rotated the whole thing both CCW and CW. I know it is specifically posted not to... Why?
Compression chamber is very shallow to check for leakage by pouring gasoline.
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Looks like a loose leaky head gasket to me. Clean up surface with solvent alcohol, brake clean or such will work fine. .0025" warp is with-in specs. The head bolts can be re-used since they are not the "stretch type" as used in the newer cars. Be sure to clean the threads in the block and the threads of the head bolts. Lightly lube the threads and under the bolt heads before installation. The new stock head gaskets are greatly improved with better materials and better construction. Don't forget to tighten the head after first warm-up and then at around 500mi.
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The hole that appears to be plugged in picture # 3 should not be blocked, looking at the picture it appears to have a crack emanating from it, or is it just a mark?
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There are 2 "plugged" water holes corresponding to the location of the 2 water ports (one for sensor/switch and the other for heater conduit). I was thinking that the holes were deliberately plugged at these locations however, the other plugged/welded hole is flush with the surface while this one appears corroded. I will pour gas on this one too to see if it leaks.
I am also trying to find the source of the rocker noise, should I take the springs out and check the guides, bushings and rotators?
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That is the area I was talking about. The hole circumfrence is enlarged/corroded and very close to the combustion chamber. I also see the crack. Unless its a piece of hair or something. Either way it needs to be cleared out for further inspection to see if it can be welded. Otherwise the head needs to be replaced. You don't know what the rest of it looks like inside.
Remove the 3 Welsh plugs that sit underneath the camshaft. Will give you a better look inside the head.
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I cleaned the head surface very well and here is what I found:
- the plug is corroded like a cavity but it doesn't leak anywhere
- what appeared to be a crack between the plug and the chamber is more like a ding/imprint maybe like hit with a screwdriver. It is not in the chamber but I believe that coolant made it's way in the cylinder this way (picture).
- the head measures 84.45 mm
- the flatness is under 0.003"
- there are visible milling marks (picture). I thought the surface is supposed to be of better quality. Since there is a 1/2 mm missing from the thickness, maybe the head has been machined before by inexperienced people.
- I checked all valves by pouring gasoline on them and they all appear to be leak free.
Would it be wise to weld the corroded cavity and then skim the surface to get rid of the milling traces? Or "If it ain't broke don't fix it"?
Should I take the springs and valves out to check them out? I would not want to break what appears to be a good seal valve/seat.
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That is definately a crack and most likely started inside the cavity where the metal is most likely very thin. The hole being plugged up is either from combustion particulates making there way through the crack or someone at one time added "stop leak" to the system. Stop leak bungs up where high temp or oxygen is present.
Needs to go to the machine shop for evaluation and pressure check. I wouldn't worry about the valves at this point. Leave them in for the machine shop to evaluate.
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Looking closely at picture # one I would suggest that the material that was blocking the coolant hole is corroded particles of aluminium from the cylinder head caused by not using the correct (or none at tall) antifreeze/corrosion inhibitor.
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Anybody knows a good machine shop in New England?
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Are you comfortable with the condition of the engine itself? Reworking the head can reveal problems with the pistons, bearings etc. you may want to think about a rebuild by a specialist such as Metric Motors which wold be around $9,000. (I remember some years ago that was in the neighbourhood of $5,500).
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I was very happy with the engine. I was driving it 85 mph (137 km/h) without a sweat for the last 2 years. I had great oil pressure, the camshaft appears to be in great condition, the bearing surface look great, the rocker ball posts look OK.
I stumbled onto this because the temperature gauge was going towards 90C which wasn't happening before. And it was doing so only when stopped at lights. I thought that a 50 year old car without a coolant expansion system needs more frequent coolant level check. After 2 checks where I had to add 2 quarts each I opened the valve cover cap and pulled the dip stick to see the dreaded orange foam. That's when I put the car in the ICU and started working on it.
All the valves appear to have no leaks, the ding that Tyler is concerned about doesn't have any "out" anywhere else in other cavities. I'm not dismissing it, I am trying to find a shop that can fill that ding and the cavity if needed plus do a compression check. The only "annoying" problem that I had was a rocker noise that I am hoping to go away after inspecting all springs/valves.
I think that heated coolant got up into that corroded cavern, turned into steam since it had nowhere to go, corroded the cavity further and found it's way into the closest cylinder with the help of the ding. The gasket supports this theory, it is discolored at that bridge.
Sometimes I am inclined to put a new head gasket, put it back together and see if the problem goes away.
$9,000 will threaten my married life, I would have to wait for my Christmas and my birthday.
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If I were to use Permatex #2 on the oil pan gasket, should I apply on both surfaces? Leave it hours to get tacky before tightening?
About the head gasket, should I use Permatex copper or not? How? I get a good discount from the dealer, should I get the gasket from somewhere else?
Thank you all for helping.
Radu
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I've been using Permatex Gray which is probably your best choice.
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I have a machine shop welding that cavity. They will skim 0.006" to 0.008" from the head. The head has a thickness of 84.45 mm and I assume it had some machining before since stock thickness should be 85 mm. I didn't find any camshaft post shims when I took it apart. Should I add 0.008" shims or 0.028" to bring to stock? I am not changing anything else now (camshaft, valves, rockers etc).
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I use .015'' cam shims. They may come in different sizes but that's the largest size available. I often use two shims if there's been a lot of work done or the top of the head was milled. Failure to get the the rocker geometry correct will take out all of your valve guides before you get your car out of your shop door.
They're cheap, easy to install, and they provide good insurance against engine damage.
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I will be getting shims from Metric Motors although I hope to find a supplier on the east coast. I am not sure if the shims should cover for the initial suspected machining or only for this one that I know. If the machining is done only on the bottom, that doesn't change the rocker/valve geometry, only reduces the combustion chamber volume, am I getting this right?
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Partially correct. Machining the top of the head also lowers the cam towers and affects the valve geometry. Machining just the bottom also slackens the timing chain. You want the shims to roughly equal the total amount of material (top and bottom) that was removed. If the head was also previously machined on top then you really should compensate for that as well unless the previous repair they used thinner valve thrust caps. The original ones should be 4.5mm thick. These might need to be changed as well depending on if valve work needs to be done. Usually if the bottom needs to be shaved, the top does as well. You dont want to put the camshaft in a bind.
Wait untill the machining is done and subtract the total head thickness from the original to get your shim sizes. Make sure the machine shop is keeping track of the measurments. They will be able to tell you exactly what your going to need if their doing their job correctly.
If in doubt copy off related pages of the BBB for their reference if they dont have the specs.
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Tyler, the thrust valve cap is the piece that sits on the valve stem and the rocker pushes down on it, right? 4.5 mm would be the thickness of the groove bottom.
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Radu, Correct. ;) If the valve and/or seat are ground, it moves the valve stem up higher into the head which is why you would need thinner caps. Determine all of this after machine work is done.
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I use shims to also compensate for valve face and seat grinding, cylinder head stock removal, and maintaining tight timing chain. You need a minimum of .050 mm intake valve recession for proper valve to piston clearance so sometimes the intake valve seats need to be cut quite a bit deeper to make everything work. This will raise the end of the valve stem and decrease the basic setting between the rocker arm and the cam lobe. If the head is cut to near minimum specs and the valve seats are also cut a lot, even the thinnest lash cap may not work. Cam shims take care of all these problems because you may well be dealing with several at the same time. And, they're cheaper than a set of lash caps.
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When I insert the valve seals should the valves be in (to guide the seals) or out?
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I got the head back from the shop. They took 0.01" from the bottom. There was no machining from the top, the head was not warped. They took 0.01" because they welded the cavity and to clean the face.
I am reluctant (I respect your opinions) to shim under the towers. There was no work on the valves, seats or top, the valve caps measure 4.5mm so I believe the only drawback of not shimming is more slack in the chain and smaller combustion chamber. If I see the tensioner reaching its limit then the slack is too big. Increasing the combustion chamber to original would not happen with tower shims. All I am saying is the engine was running fine, the only difference is a smaller combustion chamber, the valve rocker kinematics has not changed.
What is the negative effect of turning the crankshaft using the camshaft sprocket bolt? I've done that for maybe 1/2 a turn before I read the warning here and I wonder if I should inspect the chain now that I have good access.
Thank you,
Radu
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If your head was not warped, then you should be fine without the shims. Timing chain length is only altered .020"
Turning the engine with the cam bolt might cause the chain to jamb or jump timing. Just turn the engine with the crank bolt in the correct rotation and double check the crankshaft/camshaft timing marks.
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They took 0.01" from the bottom. / The head has a thickness of 84.45 mm
Yes but don't forget there was previous machine work done that was not compensated for. Head measured 84.45?
I would add the shims.
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On some engines where I've decked the block, planed the head, and did a valve job, I actually used two shims to give me .030'' cam lift. You can easily adjust the ball studs up ward to take up the extra gap at the valve rockers. If you can't install the timing chain because two sets make it too tight, remove one set of shims to lower the cam.
I would rather have a bit more clearance than I need than too little given the damage that can be done to valve guides from improper rocker geometry.
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I am taking my time now, knowing that this head is on it's last leg. I found that 3 of the 8 camshaft post head bolt (long) washers were not the thick chamfered type but the flat (like the valve cover bracket head bolts - short) type. So new washers are coming today and I plant to tighten the head bolts and mount the chain sprocket first. A block bolt hole next to cyl. 4 had dirt and the bolt that I was using to clean the holes was not going all the way down. Maybe this and the fact that the washer was thinner allowed for cyl. 4 leak; I was tightening that bolt against a fake dirt bottom.
Radu
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Now I am confused. The dealership told me there is a new part number for the thick washers and when I picked them up they were like the thin ones (by thin I mean 3mm while the others are like 4 or 5). I guess I will use these thin washers everywhere for consistency.
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I will send you some originals if you like.
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Joe,
I would appreciate if you can send me 3 of those thick washers. For now I used thin washers everywhere, but I haven't started the car yet and I can probably remove them one by one and swap the washers before first start or with the first retorquing. It's 2 mm difference and my only concern is the bolt with a thinner washer reaching deeper in the block blind hole against the end of threads creating a false gasket tightening. My address is:
Radu Gafitanu
21 Chase Road,
North Dartmouth, MA
Let me know your paypal and how much they are.
Radu
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I stripped the thread on the small coolant bypass (between the head and the coolant pump) in the head. Should I Heli Coil it or just plug it?
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Best to repair it. It is a std. metric fine thread. It helps bleed air out of the engine during coolant changes etc. Not critical however, and I can be plugged off. If plugged off, the engine coolant may be a little harder to "burp" during coolant changes.
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I repaired it and inserted a HeliCoil and it works OK. I was bleeding the chain tensioner and I get about 1/8" of play. I think I removed all the air as I get no resistance when I am pushing on the screwdriver for this small play (when I am pushing I can see that the plunger is moving too so it's not a shaft wear). To push it further it's almost impossible. Could it be that the tensioner spring got shorter and it's not extending to the full range of the tensioner? This could be causing the rocker noise that I was chasing.
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Tensiner is fine. 1/8 inch play in the tensioner is normal. That is almost the exact distance the small steel ball inside has to travel before it seals itself against the orifice. If it were completely tight then the chain would have no way to accomidate length changes as the engine heats up. The spring inside is only to give the tensioner preload. The real work is done by the plunger and steel ball using hydraulic principle that liquid cannot be compressed.
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Sunday I finished adjusting the rockers, filled oil and water and started it. After a few cranks the gas reached the injectors and started right up. 10 minutes after reaching temperature and thermostat opening I stopped and retorqued the head bolts. Later after cooling down I readjusted the valve gaps (all of them were bigger). Went yesterday shopping with several in-town starts and stops. The temperature holds steady and water level is not dropping. I hope it's fixed. It appears to be running smoother than before although there is still some "rocker" noise. I am not convinced it is rocker noise anymore (I messed a lot with rockers, valves and springs), I should be listening to other 230's, it may be its natural noise. Thank you all for your help, I am grateful.
I still have one or two IP check valves that are leaking and I would have to get the newer version. It starts in 4 or 5 when warm for a few seconds.
I was pondering over the valve gaps, should one err on the + side or on the - side. If the gap is bigger your valve opening is shorter resulting in insufficient mixture in the cylinder or not all exhaust gas exits; some power loss? If the gap is smaller you risk the valve to stay slightly open as the stem heats and expands; compression loss? I am talking about this because it took me hours to get the "tug the gauge" feel, half of the adjusters were rounded and not responding to the special tool so I had to remove the rockers for every adjustment.
Thank you,
Radu
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When you re-torque a cylinder head you further compress the cylinder head gasket, your valve clearances should be less not more.
I suggest you re-asses your procedure, torque wrench settings that you used, did you back off each bolt before re-torqueing?
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Eric, I respectfully disagree. The gasket is below the head and not in the tolerance "chain" of head-rocker post-rocker-valve-camshaft to alter the valve gap with further compression. There may be a small slack addition to the chain but that would change timing geometry and not valve gap. I believe the gap increase is due to the first engine run at temperature that made the rockers and valve caps to seat themselves properly but I could be wrong. I had the same torque setting of 70 ftlbs as my first torquing and there was further compression. However please bring some arguments I am very interested in all the details.
Radu
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Radu,
You are correct, I should have given it more thought.
You cannot get the staff these days.
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It's been 200 miles after the cylinder head work and all appears to be fine. The car runs great and there is no water in the oil anymore. The rocker noise that I was obsessing about is gone however at start (cold or warm) there is still a "lazy" cylinder that needs 2-3 seconds or a push of the throttle to catch up. I believe that one of the injectors may have a lower pressure.
Yesterday I took some pictures. They all appear to be ok (consistent), plug 4 had no redness due to coolant but it had the ground (bent) electrode almost white (in contrast with the other). Could this be a lean condition from the injector?
PS. I realized that I didn't clean the plugs after the head work so they could still be showing some of the previous conditions.
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Yes it is possible that you have a lean condition on one or more cylinders. However, replace or clean the plugs before you try and use them to isolate a condition. As you stated before, your IP check valves are most likely leaking down. Address this first as its most likely the cause of your cold start cylinder miss/studder.
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I pulled the plugs again after cleaning them and 500 miles and they all look the same. Maybe a little too lean (all of them)? Enriching the idle from the IP mixture screw would be sufficient, or the low/high speed IP mixture screws need to be adjusted?
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You may need a hotter plug to start with. However the only way to truly check your air/fuel mixture is to have it tested under load on a dyno or use a wideband O2 meter. Setting the idle CO screw only adjusts the af at "idle". The mid and high range screws really should be left alone unless you have access to a dyno. You may want to try adding/removing shims under the baro compensator or the WRD- Or adjusting the full range set screw if its easily accessible. Again, you need some way of measuring your af to get this right. The injection pump adjustments should be last on the list. Check everything else first. IE.. linkage adjustments, vacuum leaks, timing, dwell, etc.
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Tyler, which one would be a hotter plug? Hotter means it gives a stronger spark?
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A hotter plug means it is less likely to foul out. The electrode is protected by the porcelain and is designed to retain some of the heat from combustion. Too hot a plug and the electrode can actually glowred hot and cause the air fuel mixture to "preignite" before your spark takes place. Too cold a plug and the fuel can saturate the electrode and cause it to foul. NGK BP5ES or BP6ES seem to work best. The BP5ES being the hotter of the 2. The Bosch plugs these cars came with are NLA. You most likely will gain an improvement either way as the Champion plugs your currently using have been known to cause issues.
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I put BP5ES a few hundred miles ago. I pulled 2 plugs today and they look like this. To me it looks very lean and it explains the rpm "chasing" at idle. What is interesting is that the linkage test tells me I'm in the sweet spot (engine sputters if I push either of the throttle or IP rods).
I gave the IP mixture screw 3 clicks towards rich.
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The split linkage test at idle is only good for rpm up to about 1200 rpm. all other rpm ranges above 1200 rpm are controled by the governor and part/full load springs. So sounds like you are good at idle but may have a lean condition under load or higher rpm cruise. These engines like to run better at idle a little on the rich side. So if 3 clicks rich cleares up the surge at idle then you should be ok. Just be sure your not going lean under load
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Forgot to add the pictures, they tell a lot.
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I actually think that it's lean at high rpm. There is very little response when I try to accelerate it uphill above 50 mph.
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Those are the hotter plugs. The deposits on the electrode look ok. You may need a few more miles on them but I agree it looks lean. Is your total timing advance working correctly? 35-38 deg @ 3000 rpm and above. Try shimming the baro compensator to enrichen the entire fuel delivery map. You can also back it out (unscrew counter-clockwise) slightly untill you have the adjustment exactly where you want it then use feeler gauges to determine what size shims to install. You will need to go back and adjust the Idle CO knob and air screw anytime you change the main rack adjustment. (Shim the baro, main rack adjustment screw, wrd shims)
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So to repeat what has been said many times. The correct way to differentially adjust mixture for rpm is by adjusting the IP black and white screws. However this can be done on the bench only. The practical solution is to make a uniform adjustment across the entire rpm range through the rack screw or the baro. But they need readjustments of the idle IP and air screws. Wouldn't the rack screw adjustment be more direct and easier than shimming the baro?
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Yes I prefer adjusting the main rack adjustment screw. However its easy to get lost while doing this as you are working blind and question "was the screwdriver actually turning the screw". Some IP's with both start enrichment and fuel cut solenoids can be a pain to get to. A 14 mm head bolt/shaft just above and behind throttle lever needs to be backed out about 5-8mm in order to move the internal enrichment solenoid arm out of the way enough to gain access to the set screw. Best/easiest would be to see if enrichening via the baro shims first corrects the problem, if so then return the baro to original position and go after the main rack adjustment. What type of pump do you have? (R12, R18, R20, etc)
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Also, if you find that you can correct the higher RPM problem adjusting the rack setting, there is a possibility that you will no longer be able to adjust the idle settings because the main rack adjustment puts the idle circuit too far out of range to adjust. The knob will bottom out before you are able to get it trimmed correctly. If this happens you will need to send it out to be rebuilt/adjusted on the flow bench.
I have had good success using a portable wideband O2 sensor setup for checking af alpha while driving the car. Gives you a lot of insight as to whats going on during different load/throttle inputs. And its a temporary setup. No mods to the car necessary. The sensor is clamped into the tailpipe. Just be sure you have no exhaust leaks as air drawn into the exhaust from a hole can skew the readings. Here is one link for the
Innovate LM-2. You may want to shop elsewhere for a better price.
http://ebay.com/itm/400935022778?
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I checked the timing yesterday. It was slightly under 30 @ 3000 rpm. I rotated the distributor to get it past 30 @ 3000 rpm but that changed the idle timing from 2 ATDC to approx 5 BTDC. The rpm increased at idle when I did that and it sounded better but if I am reading the BBB right it should be 2 ATDC. I have the 051 distributor with the Hot Spark thingie instead of points. Is there a way to correct the high rpm timing independent of idle timing? On the other hand if the engine sounded better and rpm increased, isn't that a good thing?
Radu
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Your on the right track. Dont worry too much about the timing at idle. Set the timing at 35-38 degrees above 3000 rpm with everything connected. The engine will run its best with as much advance as you can give it without it pinging. Drive it hard after adjustments. You will then need to go back and adjust the idle CO knob and air screw to bring the idle speed back down. Being a 051 Distributer, it uses a vacuum retard. To check and make sure its working, remove the vacuum line over at the throttle body and you should see the timing advance about 5-8 degrees from your static idle timing reading.
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I drove it hard yesterday with the new timing. It is more powerful and idles better. I don't think I can bring the advance higher to 38, I have to be careful with the throttle because it knocks if I push it harder. I guess this is the result of the 3.27 diff swap with a 230 engine on a 500 lb heavier W111. I will try to shim the baro to see how it goes richer. Maybe that will make the knocking go away.
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I would try that. This engine should easily run at 38 degrees full advance but it may ping if it's running to lean. At any rate, too lean is really bad for your engine and so is knocking. For the time being I would retard your ignition until it doesn't ping.
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So, I pulled the baro, it had 3.8 mm shims. I added another 0.3. The baro is the new model without the neck. It measured 21 mm so I assume it was working.. Took it on the highway, it does have more power however, there is still knocking if I push it too hard. I checked the split linkage @ 2000 rpm and idle and it seems to be on the spot. I raised the timing to 38 @ 3000 and ignore that the timing at idle is 8 BTDC and I guess I'm going to live with it?
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8 deg at idle is no problem at all. Hopefully the coolant that was migrating through the crankshaft before the repair hasnt done damage to the lower half. You may want to back the timing off a bit. Make sure your gas is fresh and your using the highest octane fuel you can get. Looking back in the post I didnt see if you had the valves reworked. If so the added compression could be a factor in the engine knock. More stress is now being put on the bearings.
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It makes sense. I actually made a mistake and I forgot to put the shims, I found them on the table. That's why the mixture was good. So I did add 1 mm today and drive it after. It is more powerful but knocking is still present in the 1500-2500 rpm range, outside of that is OK. Now the split linkage shows me rich, I turned the timing down to to 33 and I will leave it there for the time being. I really don't want to open the IP to mess with the black screws. I hope that the coolant leak didn't mess anything down below, the oil pressure is against the peg all the time. I didn't do anything to the valves, you bring an interesting point about using 93 (highest) and I will do it. Funny, I filled up the tank with 20 gal. of regular right before reading your post.
Radu
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Neat little quirk about the distributers. The top of the distributer/front timing cover has a 10mm set screw with a pointer and tick marks. This was used for making timing adjustments without a timing light, on the fly depending on what octane fuel was available in the area. Each tick is supposed to relate to 1 degree of advance. You could theoretically set this up now at the end of its travel, where it is running its best with the regular fuel, then advance it 5 degrees or so next time you fill up with 92 octane.
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I always ignored that adjustment but I will use it. Do I have to loosen the Allen bolt or loosening the slotted/10mm vertical screw is sufficient?
I will fill up with the highest octane, I realize that these cars were made for good gasoline and this ethanol doesn't help.
Theoretically speaking, now that I isolated knocking to 1500-2500 rpm I can go two ways, adjust the black IP screws for richer or lighten the weights (or stiffen the springs) on the centrifugal of the distributor?
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You can adjust the distributor flyweights but it would need to come apart to do it as it sounds like it may be advancing too quickly. I did this on my own car and it will run regular without pinging if I have to.
All old distributors need some sort of service eventually or your car will never run properly.
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I will have to see how it works with high octane first. I guess that the correct order for these adjustments would be:
- adjust mixture for correct CO over the range. If mixture needs to be adjusted across the rpm range, shim the baro or the rack screw. If mixture needs to be trimmed on a particular range, no choice but to adjust silver or black IP screws.
- adjust timing for 38 BTDC @ 3000 rpm. Check for timing and knocking at lower rpm ranges and adjust at the centrifugal weights/springs for smooth timing
- or get the 123 ignition and create your own custom timing curve to cover for the hard to do adjustment such as the IP internal screws or the distributor weights. Too bad their instructions make no sense.
Dan would you replace the springs with stiffer or drill the counterweights to make them lighter.
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So I got a full tank of 93. I can accelerate it now without knocking. The timing is 4 BTDC at idle and 35 at 3000 rpm and I would leave it like that. I wasn't expecting that much of a difference, when I played with different octanes in my W211 I couldn't feel any difference, actually I had lower gas mileage with 93 than 87. Anyway technologies 40 years apart.
If I would want it better I would get the 123 ignition with Bluetooth control.
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To my despair I found some orange foam on the dipstick again. Compared to the first post in this thread there is no foam under the valve cover, the engine is not overheating and the coolant level didn't drop. I hope it's just some moisture from the last days. I drove it in torrential rain. I took the dipstick out to let the foam evaporate. Interesting I find the same foam in my daughter's W203 oil filler neck that is raised from the valve cover, again no coolant loss.
Too much humidity. Water in gasoline, ethanol?
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Give it a good long half hour run and that will burn off. Could be residual from your previous issue. Consider another post repair oil change in 500 miles.
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I investigated it further. It appears that the foam is only in the dipstick tube, below in the pan the oil is clean as everywhere else on top of the cylinder head. I am getting prepared to do a leak down test anyway and as I am leaving town for 5 days I will pull the plugs to see if the coolant leaks in the cylinders.
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If you have an early 230SL that condition is fairly common and not too much to worry about.
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Thank you Dan, I read more threads about this and it appears to be just moisture. I think it's an early 230 considering that it has the dipstick with a filter (S# 127-981-10-003669). I found the valve cover breather tube having water most of the time so I may tee it into the brake servo tube to force the blow by's into the intake. Or maybe I will tee a small orifice/tube from the lowest point of the tube to drain the water.
Now that I look at the engine number I realize that the donor was a manual for my 250SE automatic. I hope the flywheel is the correct one, what other differences between manual and automatic engine that I should be checking?
Radu
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One year after the head rebuild. I didn't take a compression reading then so I do not have anything to compare. My readings yesterday were:
Cylinder 1 - 140 PSI
Cylinder 2 - 120 PSI
Cylinder 3 - 120 PSI
Cylinder 4 - 120 PSI
Cylinder 5 - 135 PSI
Cylinder 6 - 140 PSI
Although the difference between the extremity cylinders and the middle cylinders is borderline, am I correct in assuming that it is the result of milling (probably twice in its lifetime) the head and thus reducing the outside combustion chambers?
Thank you,
Radu
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I find it odd that you would have pinging problems with compression numbers like that while running at 35 degrees BTDC. Those are pretty low compression numbers. You might want to try a different compression gauge just to verify those readings.
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I will try another gauge. Anyway, just recently, realizing that it's running rich I started leaning it via a M12 bolt and lock nut in the BC hole. I knew it was getting leaner by checking the split linkage and I also had to increase the IP idle screw every time to maintain idle mixture. I am not sure if i am in the optimal 13-14-13 AFR numbers since I don't have a gauge but the split linkage tells me I'm good @ 2000rpm. However, while leaning out the mixture, the pinging disappeared and right now I am 40 BTDC @ 3000 rpm and it will not ping even when I floor it in 4 gear uphill. It's kinda' sluggish though.
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Sounds like you're getting closer but I think it's low compression that's the problem.
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I tried a new gauge and the first 4 cylinders had the same pressures. At the fifth the compression gauge decided to let go of the ghost, I will have to clean or get new Schrader valves because it doesn't hold anymore.
So I guess I am heading towards a M117 transplant. A member here has done that to his W111 and if my 2.3 may fail I might as well go bigger.