Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: RonB on November 23, 2014, 19:34:45
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http://www.classicdriver.com/en/car/mercedes-benz/sl-pagode/1970/270224?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Classic%20Driver%20Daily%202092014&utm_content=Classic%20Driver%20Daily%202092014%20CID_16e6125a248d23ea064dddd6032c740d&utm_source=newsletter
Classic Driver - going to RM Auction - looks more like a 230-250 - door panels - tag o n firewall.
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Looks to be a euro 280SL. Only thing wrong I see are the radio buttons which are the older style, and the steering center pad which should be black. Nice looking car.
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Wow. Nice car. Agree with GGR's points. Also rocker covers are body color not dark grey. Obviously the spare tire cover is not original but interesting choice to make one to match the luggage. This car will sell well IMHO.
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The carpet is square weave wool, which while very nice, is incorrect for a 1970 model year.
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Bunch of detail stuff under the hood:
Gold power steering reservoir should be black
Angled brake reservoir (but it is the current replacement)
Plug wires angled at the dizzy, should go under the injection lines, and have a black sleeve, not zip tie
Solenoid on the intake should be yellow cad, not black
Brake line from booster to inane should be plastic as it is later car
Took kit is replacement
That typed, does look like a nice presentation, and will be curious to see the hammer price
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The luggage is a copy, a nice copy, but a copy all the same.
Id hate to think someone paid a premium for a genuine set of hepco luggage and recieved a copy.
I hope the sales litreture reflects this.
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So...what will the hammer price be?
I'll thinking $135,000.
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Firewall padding is the pebble finish type (not diamond pattern).
Sub mount brackets and bolts are all plated. Could be wrong on this but I thought the plates were black and the bolts plated? (would like to know what is correct for my current resto)
Also noticed they have a hose attached to the overflow on the expansion tank (which is what i do temporarily when I am driving it to avoid coolant spillage in the bay) but I believe originally there was no hose attached.
Nice colour combination - what a pity the 280's didn't have the square weave carpet and the two tone steering hub.....guess I list a whole bunch other 230Sl features whilst i am at it.
Cant wait to hear the hammer price.....I reckon they might tempt someone over the 150K mark.
Cheers
Rob
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Interestingly, if you were to order a firewall pad from MB today, you would receive the grainy looking one. This said, I don't think that points can be taken off for this as it comes directly from Mercedes.
So we have $135,000 and $150,000.
Anyone else?
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a very nice car, with small false features. Would also think of $ 130,000. I'm not a fan of brown, but could also change my mind ............... if my uncle would give it to me.
http://www.heritageclassics.com/inventory/detail/1171-mercedes-benz-230sl-roadster.html
A different example with some big problems for $ 69,000. Then better to pay a little more ...........
Peter
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Funny you say that Kevin, I actually lost points for keeping my original firewall padding at a MB concours d elegance here (see photo). Cant say exactly what points were lost but they clearly said - "...well this (padding) doesn't look as nice as the one on that car (pebble finish) so we will mark it less than that one....", here I was thinking it would be appreciated.
Also lost a point that day as my spare tire (whilst being original) did not match the other 4. I have since corrected that. They were quite shocked to see an original tyre that day.
Whilst I do enter to win, I wont be changing the firewall padding. :)
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RobSirg,
Very nice, with the warm running device on the injection pump hooked up correctly, not like the car in question. I must admit to having the little overflow hose on the expansion tank, but that is not correct it was just the little stub end. I believe the subframe mounting brackets should be black with plated screws. (but remember no subframe covers on the 280 SL).
Don't understand the points off though for the original pad! I would judge it as neutral as long as the pads were in good shape.
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Thanks Jonny,
Yes I was aware of the submount covers - so they are now off. Oddly enough all the 280's on display that day had them (and we all knew they were wrong!).
re: the "warm running device on the injection pump" are you referring to the missing solenoid on my injection pump and the makeshift hook-up near my hood strap?
It was that way when I bought it. I did read that some people did away with them as they were problematic? I also noticed the injection pump on my 1970280SL project car is missing solenoids. Is it true that the later models didn't have them or have they been removed perhaps for a similar reason.
Thanks for reaffirming the finish to the submount brackets as I want to get that correct on my project car. Its also my intention to send photo's for critique when it is almost done (long way to go) as it bothers me when i see things that could so easily be corrected but were not. I guess I could use the same title as this post when I do that!
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I think the brown car will fetch 90 000$.
If I look at Hagerty's valuation tool, this car is clearly a #2 car (for multiple incorrect details). Combined with an unpopular colour combo, etc., thus my 90k$ prediction. If I were to do a 280 SL with no history in order to maximize ROI with a sale in mind, I would say screw the original colour, pick the most popular int/ext colour combo, make it look and smell like new everywhere without worrying too much about the car being correct, and market it well.
I think this car is very well put together and will sell, but not for #1 car money. No way.
Jerome
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RobSirg
I meant the hoses hooked to the warm up thermostat on the top of the injection pump. Your car has them hooked up the correct way (at least the way they are shown in the reference photo in the early 280 SL brochure (and on 49rs photo). About half the cars I look at have them switched around.
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I have also seen them swapped around but Mercedes BBB only adds to the confusion.
Which is the right way round and why ?
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Just had a look at my project car photo's - before the injection pump was removed and they were incorrectly installed. I'm going with 49er's photo as being correct - which also matches the original brochure and the way MB Classic configure it on their restored pump in the attached photo.
we can at least agree (given my 2 cars) that Jonny's statement "that half the cars have them switched around" is 100% correct. ;D
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photo No. 1 shows my 280SL engine taken the night I brought it home (Sept '68). Picture No. 2 show my 250SL Engine about 6 weeks after delivery (June '67). Hoses installed in the same order on both engines. Apologies for the reposting of these photos. I might also add...when I see cars like this ( the one for sale, not mine:-) that have gone through extensive restoration for many $$$, it just baffles me why they can't get the little stuff right?
John
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As I have posted many times before, I am fully on board with 49rs comments. I see cars selling or trying to be sold for mega bucks, and they can't get the details right. The information is out there so why can't they get it in place. It just sends the message to me, as to what other more hidden details are not taken care of.
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Really John? A 250SL in 67....... and a 280SL in 68?
Was the 250 traded for the 280, or did you keep both? I'm guessing you were a young fella back then - surely you must have been the talk of the town driving one of these around? They weren't exactly giving them away :D Didn't they cost more than an E-type Jag back in their day?
You must have some stories of women this car attracted back then (not to suggest you couldn't attract them without the car). Come on John - give us something ;D.....what was it like as a young guy driving one of these brand new? What were your buddies driving at the time?
totally off topic I know but I'm very curious.
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Really John? A 250SL in 67....... and a 280SL in 68?
The whole story can be found in the Issue 2 of Pagoda Notes, Volume 7, thanks to Jonny B :)
http://www.sl113.org/wiki/uploads/Restricted/PNv7i2US.pdf
It has been a great ride and as far as being a chick magnet, you would have to ask my "navigator" for the past 39 years. :)
John
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I have also seen them swapped around but Mercedes BBB only adds to the confusion.
Which is the right way round and why ?
Dave H, I would not be too concerned with those pictures from the BBB. The fact is that many of those pictures are taken before the cars go to production and might not represent production intent routing. I would go with the production set up, just as John (49er) shows in his pictures. The detail of which hose goes on top was ironed out long before they built John's 250 or 280.
Side note: Of course John's story and car are awesome.
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This is funny. At least to me it is.
I don't have access to my car right now, but I have lot of pictures.
So, I went to the pictures to see if my hoses were hooked up correctly.
They are what I would consider wrong. :D
But, at least they look like one of the BBB pictures Dave H posted. ;D
One more thing I need to understand .... the list goes on.
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The latest M130 (later 280SLs) engines had a design change. The "pod" between the cylinder head and injection pump (where the thermo-time-switch and temperature gauge sender are), was deleted. After this change the water hoses at the WRD were reversed from previous versions. The thermo-time-switch and temperature gauge sender, were then relocated directly into the cylinder head. The lower WRD hose was then routed below and directly into the cylinder head where the "pod" was located on the earlier design.
In regards to the 280SL, the master cylinder reservoir is the incorrect replacement version, looks like the brake vacuum hose is made from a power steering hose and fittings, window crank handles may be incorrect replacement versions, nice car in most respects.
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Look at the picture of the tool kit. Not only do the tools seem to be more modern Hazet tools but it comes with 2 Hazet stickers. The tool bag is also is also identified as being a 50 year anniversary Pagoda. Did the classic center or someone else restore a car to auction off or raffle for the 50th anniversary? I am just wondering if this might have been the Mercedes answer to the 911 that Porsche did for the US Porsche club a few years back?
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Thanks for the link John - a nice read indeed.
I still think you are holding out on us......if I do the sums you were still young and single when you first had the car.....not to mention it being such a cool car in the swinging 60's.
Guess we might have to pry those locked-away stories out of you over a beer one day :)
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Not sure of the exact origins of the 50 yr tool bag. These were on offer at the 50 year event held in Willingen, I think the whole took kit, as pictured, was there on offer too.
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I have a question about the tag on the firewall[ image #15]. Is this correct for a Euro?
Second item that stood out was the door panel [ image #3 ] - correct for Euro? or are these older panels.
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On the door panel, image 3, are you referring to the hard pocket? Those are correct for the Euro models.
As to the tag question. I do know it has been discussed on the forum. I did a bit of search, and the information I could find on the site, indicated a Euro car would have the VIN tag/plate on the firewall. The US cars have it mounted on the B pillar. I thought they would have been riveted in place, not screwed on, as shown in the photo.
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The latest M130 (later 280SLs) engines had a design change. The "pod" between the cylinder head and injection pump (where the thermo-time-switch and temperature gauge sender are), was deleted. After this change the water hoses at the WRD were reversed from previous versions. The thermo-time-switch and temperature gauge sender, were then relocated directly into the cylinder head. The lower WRD hose was then routed below and directly into the cylinder head where the "pod" was located on the earlier design.
Thanks Joe for teaching me something new. I haven't heard about that before.
And best of all, all is OK under by bonnet, and has been.
Mark
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Just checked my UK delivered 280SL - the VIN plate on the firewall is screwed in place ( as is the BS seatbelt compliance plate). I'm fairly certain the Engine Bay was never re-sprayed on that car, are saying it should be riveted?
Rob
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Mainly posting to get the discussion started. I would have surmised that the VIN plate would be riveted into place, but, as I type, I am seeking to fully understand.
My 280 SL, US version, with the plate in the door jamb, is riveted.
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Got it. Thought I would church the TM, mine has the same screws as the Euro version in the Tech manual. I'm fairly certain the Euro versions were screwed in place to the firewall.
Rob
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Thanks for the update, I continue to learn….
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Mine is a euro with the VIN plate screwed in on the firewall. I had thought the screws were suspicious and contacted the Classic Center about it and they told me this was normal, as it should be.
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if it should be a europeen pagoda, there is one chrome molding missing below the licence plate
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if it should be a europeen pagoda, there is one chrome molding missing below the licence plate
Not all Euro Pagoda cars had this chrome strip from factory. In Germany, yes, but in other countries like for instance Italy and Sweden, not.
/Hans in Sweden
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Assuming the car is all original, it is not originally for the Italian market, as it is missing the two turning indicator lights in front of the fenders specific to Italian cars of that era. So it may be a Swedish car then?
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.../...So it may be a Swedish car then?
Well, many countries in Europe... To determine to where a Mercedes car was first delivered, look at the stamped metal plate close to the hood catch and/or the printed data card. A car delivered initially to Sweden has stamped code SA 624. In the printed Data card, the country code is 569. A US delivery car has SA 491 stamped.
See Tech Manual http://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/DealerandCountryCodes#Europe (http://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/DealerandCountryCodes#Europe)
/Hans in Sweden
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http://www.classicdriver.com/en/car/mercedes-benz/sl-pagode/1970/270224?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Classic%20Driver%20Daily%202092014&utm_content=Classic%20Driver%20Daily%202092014%20CID_16e6125a248d23ea064dddd6032c740d&utm_source=newsletter
Classic Driver - going to RM Auction - looks more like a 230-250 - door panels - tag o n firewall.
WOW....Auction estimate is $225 - $275k...
http://rmauctions.com/lots/lot.cfm?lot_id=1071707
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Kevin,
it will be very interesting to see if the car goes for that price. If it does then the market (if the market there is...) really moved up
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Great thread! I'm learning a lot ... thanks all around~
John (49) I read your PN story again ... what a great story it is :)
Jonny B are there any more stories like it in PN you have put together?
RobSirg I agree with you we have to try to get some more stories from John over a beer :)
Stan let's keep an eye on the final hammer price, then I don't think Auction prices mean all that much since purchasers often don't know all the fine details.
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I also think my early estimate of $150K+ is closest so far, but I will hold off bragging rights until the Auction hammer falls ;D
Rob
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Thanks Jonny B for your PM and pointer to this thread ----> http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=16123.0
Thanks!
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I believe that it was RM that also sold the $250k car at Monterrey this past summer. This could be why they feel that they can justify the high estimate on this one. Gooding & Company has several nice pagodas listed in their catalog for Scottsdale in the low - to-mid 100's. Even with the luggage, I believe RM is a little strong on this one. We'll see!
http://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1970-mercedes-benz-280-sl-4/
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RM sold the SL that was the original subject of this post for $181K including buyer's premium.
http://rmauctions.com/lots/lot.cfm?lot_id=1071707
Gooding sold this one for $99k.
http://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1970-mercedes-benz-280-sl-4/
I saw the Gooding car in person and can't imagine how the RM car was worth almost double the value.
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There are plenty for sale in the UK now at between £100K and £140K. I know Howard sells well for this as thats where I sold mine. :)
http://www.howardwisecars.co.uk/index.php/classic/car-details/mercedes_280_sl_pagoda_lhd/
http://www.peterjarvis.net/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=236&category_id=12&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=72
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Very interesting - started looking at the Howard Wise stock (as you do) and he's selling a very well known 250...
1968/’F’; Auto; PAS; Red/Black Leather; Hard/Soft Tops; Headrests; Previously owned by the late Roger Edwards from March 1989 and underwent many upgrades - then passed to his family until recent sale; featured in numerous magazines and articles over the years; MOT certificates from 1988 onwards; Original Owner’s Handbook and Wallet; 69,500 mls. Pls call with your enquiries & to make an appointment to view - 020 8418 9191 or 07836 522234
Price: £89,995
That'll be a very sorted and well specced car and I seem to recall the engine was a little hotter than stock...
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Hi James, yes of course, I know this car from seeing it at REZ and the with Howard. To be honest, I don't think it's that great, it might have a few mods but what for ? Speed ? I had the usual electric ignition and better axle but that just made it easier to drive everyday. As Howard sells very good cars he might struggle to shift this at that money, but what do I know. I'm driving a loaner r107 this week as my r129 is being serviced. The pagoda is by far the more characterful compared to the 107. The 129 is different altogether and I have to say after all those wonderful years. I'm happy to have my 129. I did 16k miles from january to January and loved almost everyone. I do miss my pagoda though.
I hope yours is doing well .
P
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I think the price difference between the two cars was due to the fact that the RM car underwent a concours quality restoration. In my opinion an original very low mileage example with original paint, chrome, interior with very minimal wear is the end all be all of classic cars but the gooding car was not this. It was a relatively well preserved car but it was re painted, it had wear above and beyond what you'd find in a well preserved low mileage survivor and it had an incorrect (one incorrect) feature being the gear shifter knob. This was incorrect but not in good taste.
The Goodings car on the other hand was perhaps better than new condition wise. It had many incorrect features but they were all of the highest quality and done in superb taste. While too incorrect for my liking, it obviously appealed to the crowd at the auction.
RM sold the SL that was the original subject of this post for $181K including buyer's premium.
http://rmauctions.com/lots/lot.cfm?lot_id=1071707
Gooding sold this one for $99k.
http://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1970-mercedes-benz-280-sl-4/
I saw the Gooding car in person and can't imagine how the RM car was worth almost double the value.