Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Body, interior, paint, chrome, and cosmetic items => Topic started by: Drewtee on May 20, 2011, 11:23:55
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Hi,
I was wondering if there was enough interest on this forum to source a company to manufacture a near replica of the original firewall pad?
If so, it would be good to discuss here how we can go about getting the ball rolling. I wouldn't know where to start but obviously we would need a minimum number to make it viable.
Is there any interest to do this?
Thanks
Andy
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Depending on how good the match is and a reasonable price I would be most interested in 2 sets!
Kay
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i agree, it would need to be a match otherwise no point in doing it.
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They are "sided" so while I would be interested in an RHD one, I fear there'll be insufficient demand.
I think it'd be great to get one that looked like the original but was better in terms of soundproofing...
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good point Tosh, that could be a slight problem for those this side of the pond.
But, once the material has been manfucatured we should be able to get the shape correctly cut but by somebody. I'd be pretty determined to find a way to do this for RHD cars if we can get numbers needed to go into manufacture of the material.
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I am the right side of the pond and would have no problem with a LHD one ;D
Count me in.
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Well, I'm pretty sure that there might be a few South African pagoda owners that might be interested in the RHD configuration if it comes to getting the ball rolling...
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I would be interested in two RHD pads if they are "correct"
Garry
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I am the right side of the pond and would have no problem with a LHD one ;D
Count me in.
Yes but you're just weird ;D
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Does anyone know the original supplier of the firewall pad with wave pattern ? I offer to call them if they are located in Germany.
They might still have the old tool available.
Claudine
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I'd be interested.
George
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After spending years dealing with European suppliers in the yachting industry I would suspect that the original pad was discontinued because it might have broken off and dropped down on the exhaust which Could be really bad. If what I think is true the original supplier will be out.
There has to be some kind of heavy tar board that could be embossed with the proper pattern, glued to some foam and cut out with a router and a pattern.
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I agree there is probably some firm out there that can make these up given enough demand.I found a firm in the UK that makes a product called hardura that may be a place to start asking. It is at URL <http://www.woolies-trim.co.uk/c-127-hardura.aspx>. I've never dealt with them so I don't know if they would be interested. Maybe one of our UK members with an original sample would be willing to drop by and ask them?
George
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I'll give them a buzz on Monday to see what they say. I'm not particularly close to them but if it's a possibility, maybe a local member could pop past. They are close to Peterborough. If not, i'll cut a tiny sample off of one i have and post with a high res pic.
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My car needs one. Eventually. LHD.
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I would also be interested in one.
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Andy do you have the firewall material?
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Yes I do ( it's attached to a car) but need one for a car to be restored. i wouldn't mind a spare also so 2 required for me.
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I believe K&K MFG tried to get some made a few years ago.
Who ever it was could not get them approved by some agency. forgot which one..
Anyway, I'd be interested
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Must have been the IRS.
[IRS = Internal Revenue Service. The US federal tax collecting agency]
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http://www.woolies-trim.co.uk/ do not manufacture but have put me onto somebody else who is coming back to me.
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I believe K&K MFG tried to get some made a few years ago.
Who ever it was could not get them approved by some agency. forgot which one..
Anyway, I'd be interested
It was the Depatment of Agriculture. They found bugs in the backing material. I think it was the floor insulation kits and not the firewall material.
The first batch of firewall pads were for 230SL's and it was thick. A later run was more like the 280SL style being thinner but without the pattern on it. I'm not sure what's available right nowbut I think it's the thinner stuff.
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I'm in for a LHD euro if the pattern is correct and the price not too crazy
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what about this company: www.worlduph.com/mb6.htm ?
The firewall pad is offered a little more than half way down the page. It's $140.
I don't see this company mentioned in the Suppliers list nor in the Technical Manual section on firewalls.
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Of all the people on this forum, I don't think anyone has ever been able to say that they have been able to purchase a correct reproduction cross hatched firewall pad, either LH or RH.
I will bet that Worldup will just be like every other repro as shown in the Tech Manual. If they did the correct pad there would be a rush.
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The pad sold by worlduph is the current 4th version replacement material that is sold by a number of vendors and I believe also by MB.
As far as I know the original pad was never reproduced - but a member here (TOM230SL) once found an old role and offered enough material for one car for $3,000 and also sold it on eBay, that is, enough material for the firewall not including material under rubber mat on the floor panel.
Read up on the discussion here: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=4506
The "original" pad on a 230SL is actually different from the diamond patterned "original" pad that one can see in later cars, they were made by different processes:
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/tom230sl/2005121192528_pattern.jpg)
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/tom230sl/200510313421_P1010020.jpg)
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/tom230sl/2006110113054_P1010063.JPG)
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I would take 2 and if the pattern is best to date I would take 20 more.
Best regards,
Tony LaBella
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I would take 3 LHD firewall pads.
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Andy,
Went to my upholsters with the photos from Alfred and discussed getting the material. He showed me how they had remanufactured a replica for a locally manufactured Holden here from the 60's using an agent in Malaysia and got a perfect replica and that he would like to have a go at seeing if they could replicate the Mercedes item. He indicated that he would like a small piece to use as a sample.
Is that possible and I will follow up on the potential source for the material.
Garry
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How big a 'small Piece' will he need, an inch squared? - the smaller the better!
By the way, this is a great picture of the 280sl firewall showing the texture and depth of the waffle pattern. I'm sure Brian at MI doesn't mind.
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Andy
Inch square is fine, sent a PM off line
Garry
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Here's an original 250 SL (1543) firewall pad
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Alfred,
Can you send me a high definition of the top photo that you posted. Is that showing the earlier and later pattern on the material for the pad?
Garry
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Garry,
can't do since all I did was re-posting these photos from an old post by TOM230SL.
However, it should not be too difficult to find a piece of the material in Joe's graveyard during PUB since it was used in the foot wells of other cars.
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However, it should not be too difficult to find a piece of the material in Joe's graveyard during PUB since it was used in the foot wells of other cars.
Sure was.
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Very good point Alfred, but I would like to get it on the move before then so I will try to get the piece from Andy and get the upholsterer to start the process of sourcing/manufacture trial pieces.
what we can do is see if there is a difference from the 230 to the 250 and 280
Garry
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Here is a photo that I took this afternoon of my 1967 Italian 230SL (11304210017590). The pad has not been touched since I bought the car used in 1987. The pad was in the same shape then - bad! I photographed the only reasonably intact area.
I don't know if it's original, but I suspect yes.
The small squares are actually recessed although the lighting makes them look raised.
Tom Kizer
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I have a photo of my 1967 230sl firewall pad before I replaced it years ago. I will dig it up and send along. My pad was not in bad shape as I recall but back when i replaced it I was not all that concerned about it looking original. I've changed my mind on that over the years and would really like to have an original looking pad if the replicas are made.
George
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Thanks all for photos, I think we have enough photos now,
The next step is to get the sample that Andy is sending me to the Upholsterers and see if it can be replicated. As I said to Andy, the difficulty that I can see is not replicating the pattern but getting the material correct and the thickness correct.
As soon as I have the sample, I will pass it to my guy and he is going to seek to have a sample produced out of Malaysia.
It may take a bit of time given that bits are floating around the world but hopefully something will come of it. I would hope pricing would be competitive with existing firewall pads. The correctness is the important thing.
Meanwhile I think we should still confirm numbers that would be interested. Like George, I think there are a lot of us that put in the replacement as it was the only item available but with time it would be nice to get a more original looking item in place
Garry
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Garry: Since your looking for numbers of interested, consider me down for one.
Gus
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+1
Cheers,Niko
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You might consider when manufacturing these pads that you do not make the cut out for the heater core valve on the fire wall since the early cars did not have the access plate to change the "O" ring.
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Hello Garry,
Great idea, thanks a lot for your effort and input here! :)
I'd recommend to repro the pattern that the 280 SL has since that one seems to be the most frequent pattern used for all pagodas.
I know that very early 230ies had a totally different pattern... :o
Nevertheless, count me in for two (at least); however, I prefer to get the material by the square meter, not the pre-cut pads. ;)
By the way, the same material was also used under the dash - as John (TheLews) already indicated.
Best,
Achim
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... I know that very early 230ies had a totally different pattern... :o ..
Hi Achim,
can you post a photo so we can see the difference please?
I thought TOM230SL restored an early 230SL and that is what is shown in his photo that I posted again.
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can you post a photo so we can see the difference please?
I thought TOM230SL restored an early 230SL and that is what is shown in his photo that I posted again.
Hello Alfred,
Don't know anymore about what TOM230 or so had ... that's too long ago. ::)
I remember well there was one individual a couple of years back who had a roll of what was supposed to be the original firewall insulation mat, which he was very proud of and which he finally sold for a good amount of money on ebay.... :o but I don't remember whether that was TOM or someone else.
I have a pic of someone's car, but I am not sure whether I may publish it; I had trouble with this before, so I am a bit carefull. :-\ I cropped the picture to the essential area, hope that is useful for the very few early-VIN aficionados here (and does not infringe copy rights...).
This is from - what I think - a "pretty damn much untouched" - 1963 230 with a VIN slightly below 500. ;)
Although the pic is poor it can be seen that the grain of the pad is totally different. It looks almost like a fine tar-like surface or the one of gyymnastics mats ... don't know a better description for that.
I doubt someone is ever willing to reproduce "that" one. So, Daryl and I have to look further .... :'( :'(
Achim
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My bet would be that a lot of restorers would want to use the bulk material to do the underdash areas as well. The firewall pad I replaced mine with came in bulk as well and I used it to do the footwell areas. The material has the fiber backing not the foam as I have read some people have. The material is neat and clean and has the pebble finish and is completely functional but in my opinion, the diamond pattern material just looks so much better, It appears as though the demand is there and this can't be that hard to do, afterall, all we are talking about, I think, is recreating the diamond pattern on the top layer of the pad, so hopefully the Malaysia thing will come to fruition. Let's hope!
George
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I agree George,
If it is good, then there should be availability of the pads, LH and RH and extra material for those that want it.
That would be my intent if the source of the material is good.
Garry
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Hallo
here some photos from under the dash
I clean them last year und put them back
I need a new firewall patt too for my 280sl, the original one are gone
Peter
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Why would you want to make your own under dash panels when they're already available as reproduction pieces?
The under dash panels are made from a different material than ( not then ) the firewall pads anyway.
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Garry,
sample has been removed and posted to you today so you should get it in about 5 days.
Here's a photo of the edge so you can see the thickness as well as the foam backing.
With the sample i have sent, the material seems slighty more brittle than the identical firewall in another car which is more rubbery. I suppose it depends how the car has been stored over the years and in what climate.
Is the foam backing important? i'm not sure but the pattern is the key
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Dan,
These are not for the fibreboard underdash panels as you have correctly pointed out as still available. The footwells under the carpeting on the interior firewalls are covered in the same material as the exterior firewall pad and there are three other pieces that are up under the dash on the interior firewall.
George
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Hi all
I do agree if the quality is matched and price is reasonable.
I would need 2 sets as well
Basem
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Count me in for 1.
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Count me in for one also
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RHD pls
No pressure here Garry. We are not counting on you, oh no...
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No pressure, much 8)
I have a 70% confidence rating at this point that my upholsterer can match it but I haven't pulled my wrong firewall pad off the car .......yet. I have looked very closely at it to see how easy it is going to be.
Maybe the question ANDY, note, ANDY should have asked is who doesn't need one.
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My bet is that if they can do a faithful reproduction and they are reasonably priced, they will sell very well. This is like the ZF 5 Sp of trim items to many of us with these cars.
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Hey Garry, I don't mind you taking the pressure on this one ;)
If you can get this organised through your upholsterer then you are the man 8)
Although, the pessimist in me says it can't be that easy, can it?!
The great thing is there is the demand to get these reproduced somewhere somehow.
I take it the sample has not arrived as yet?
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Hi Andy,
Not arrived yet. UK to Australia, another world so takes light years. If it was to do with cricket it would have been here yesterday!
When I get it I have to take it to the upholsterer who is about 200km away so it is all a bit of a slow process. So long as I keep it moving forward and we have a good idea of numbers so that i can convince him to push on with getting a roll or two it will all be worth it in the end.
They say it might snow here tomorrow, coor blimey, what is the world coming to.
Cheers
Garry
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Hello Garry,
Dependent on looks of the replicas, I am interested in one RHD set for my 250SL automatic.
Thanks
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Hi Bob
If he cannot get them pretty close to original then I wont be going there. I saw the Torana XU1 Fire Wall pad compared to the original and it was near replica. Hoping he can do the same for ours.
Garry
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I have received the sample from Andy and also had a talk to the upholsterer. The sample from Andy is a very old and well worn piece whilst the photos that i have received from several of you show a much more distinct pattern.
Does anyone have a piece from under the dash in the footwell area that is in reasonable condition and possible a better example that I could have. I only need an inch or two square.
I ask because I am a bit concerned sending this example to Malaysia and they get the wrong idea of how deep the depressions and how distinct they are.
Garry
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Garry,
Any more headway on this?
George
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Not sure if this pics will be of any help. Original firewall Pad on my '69SL
John
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Update:
I had a meeting on Monday with the Aust Distributor for the material and gave him a set of photos and the sample that Andy had sent me.
He has asked me to bring my car to him (next week) to get an idea of the thickness of the material that is currently being used as the replacement. The bit that Andy sent appears to be bitumen based with a foam backing but was fairly brittle and he indicated that he will probably need a better sample to ensure he replicates it correctly. I am certain that I have seen pads that appear to have coconut fibre on the back side, not foam? And much thicher than 2 - 3 mm that is the current sample thickness. Has anyone seen that?
Also 1000 meters will probably be the minimum order. So it is critical that the item is correct otherwise someone is going to be left with a lot of material without a market.
I am hoping that I will be able to get several samples at some point before commitment that I can send to a couple of you to confirm that it is a match.
This is not going to be a quick outcome but slowly getting there step by step. I am in Perth week after next looking at a Pagoda in bits and hopefully I can get another sample from the interior firewall if it has not all been pulled off.
Garry
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Garry:
I have original unmolested material on the interior footwell of my '69.
PM me if you want me to send you a sample.
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Great,
PM sent
Garry
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The replacement pads I've seen, with the fiber backing are MUCH thicker than the original.
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...and the originals were dreadful quality. I do not know what they were made of, but they certainly were one of the least long lasting items on the car. If an original style and pattern version were made, I would hope it were not the same material.
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...and the originals were dreadful quality. I do not know what they were made of, but they certainly were one of the least long lasting items on the car. If an original style and pattern version were made, I would hope it were not the same material.
Did you look at my firewall pictures above? That's 44 years and 150K miles old! The material in my interior, floor boards, etc., looks like brand new. I'd submit that care of the car has more to do with the current condition of the material than the quality of the material.
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John,
Is the back of yours the foam or the coconut fibre? and what is the thickness?
The plan is to get the surface material correctly done in Malaysia and any backing would be added later here in Aust.
Garry
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John,
Is the back of yours the foam or the coconut fibre? and what is the thickness?
The plan is to get the surface material correctly done in Malaysia and any backing would be added later here in Aust.
Garry
I'll look and measure it tonight. I know the fibre you're talking about and mine is not that and much thinner. Look at the pics below of the fibre backed replacement and compare to my original several posts above and below. They lay down entirely differently.
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I'd submit that care of the car has more to do with the current condition of the material than the quality of the material.
I would have to agree with John on this. Considering the extreme conditions in my engine compartment that this material has to exist in, I think it has held up pretty darn well for the past 43 years ( just celebrated her 43rd anniversay of her build:-) Keeping it clean all those years probably helped. If the repro material holds up half as long, you should be happy.
No foam backing and barely over .12" thick
John
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I stand corrected, there is a foam backing but the total thickness remains about an .12". The foam has disintegrated around the edges in the engine compartment.
Haven't had my 2nd cup of coffee yet:-)
John
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Garry:
I just cut out the piece I am sending you and it looks like 49er's - with thin foam backing.
I believe the 230s had a thicker pad originally, but examples I have seen recently are basically in tatters. Apparently they upgraded at some point to the later style.
I think if we can replicate the original color, texture and pattern on the surface with maybe a better under layer would be the best solution.
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... I am certain that I have seen pads that appear to have coconut fibre on the back side, not foam? And much thicher than 2 - 3 mm that is the current sample thickness. Has anyone seen that? ....
Garry,
the replacement pads that were sold by MB after the diamond-patterned pads have a fiber backing (but a "wrinkled" surface) and are a bit thicker. Perhaps you have those in mind?
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Garry,
the replacement pads that were sold by MB after the diamond-patterned pads have a fiber backing (but a "wrinkled" surface) and are a bit thicker. Perhaps you have those in mind?
That's the pad I just pictured above.
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Did you look at my firewall pictures above? That's 44 years and 150K miles old! The material in my interior, floor boards, etc., looks like brand new. I'd submit that care of the car has more to do with the current condition of the material than the quality of the material.
John,
The FACT of the matter is that MOST of the original firewall pads are destroyed, way beyond other materials and items in the car. They were not meant to be salvaged or reused, and due to their organic nature, simply don't or didn't last. You have an exceptional car. That does not mean the quality of the firewall pad is any good. I've seen many exceptional cars with cracked and trashed firewall pads. I stand by my assessment.
I do hope you will DRIVE your car to PUB this summer, right? Many of us would like to see this car...
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John,
The FACT of the matter is that MOST of the original firewall pads are destroyed, way beyond other materials and items in the car. They were not meant to be salvaged or reused, and due to their organic nature, simply don't or didn't last. You have an exceptional car. That does not mean the quality of the firewall pad is any good. I've seen many exceptional cars with cracked and trashed firewall pads. I stand by my assessment.
I do hope you will DRIVE your car to PUB this summer, right? Many of us would like to see this car...
Sorry, the pads I've seen that are beat up, usually have a pretty tired looking engine compartment too, not to mention the rest of the car, unless the car was restored and the pad unchanged.
No, I won't be driving my car to PUB, not because I wouldn't drive it, but, because I won't be at PUB. Gernold has seen the car, you can ask him about it. I believe Alfred has seen it too.
I've already put 500 miles on the car this spring/summer, should hit 1500-2000 for the season, and don't forget, it has 152K on it, including the 4K I've put on it since buying it. Still hasn't been washed with water, though.
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UPDATE
Thanks to an offer of another good piece of original material, I am awaiting the piece of material from Rick Bogart (Bogeyman), to arrive but have again had discussions with the Melbourne importer of the different firewall materials and has looked at the initial piece provided by Andy T (Drewtree). He is still confident that we should be able to replicate the pad but wanted a better sample to ensure that it was correct. I also need to let him look at my car to have a look at the alternative pad currently used by most.
The cost of a one off production roll of the material is going to be high and thus we will need to know that there are at least 100 pads required. That way the cost is going to be kept to at or near the current incorrect replacement pad price. To also keep the cost down it may be a case of each order being supplied with a meter of the material and a template rather than having the pads individually cut out in either left or right. That way we save on an additional cutting operation and the purchaser will also have some left over to replace what was in the foot wells as well within the total price.
Any one care to comment on that proposal if it is suitable, people would be still interested or do we need to have the pads cut to left/right and the firewall pad only?
Timing on it is still unknown, it will not be a fast process but I will be insisting on getting an example for some to see and compare with the original material to ensure that the match is good.
Garry
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Garry
I for one would rather have the pad die cut (or other method) by someone who knows what they are doing.
Gus
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Does not matter one way or another with me. I cut the pad I currently have using the original as a pattern and it came out fine. Would like to have additional material for the footwells.
George
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Garry,
You can officially add me to the list. I would prefer having it already cut, but that is not a show stopper. I would go for either.
Thanks!
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Garry,
I'd like a set as well. If supplying it uncut has a noticeable effect on the cost, then I'd prefer that option. And as George mentions, it would leave some additional material for other places.
Thanks for taking the initiative on this!
Best regards,
-waqas
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Yep, sign me up for 2 either way please. RHD.
Steven.
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I want one, too. Die cut or a square yard would work. BTW, there's got to be at least a hundred of us wanting this material.
Andy
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Further Update.
Before I left for PUB I received the piece of material from Rick and took it to the upholsterer this last week He did a carbon pencil rubbing of it and is doing further research on the possible methods for manufacture using a laser mating to produce it and thus trying to avoid the need to produce 1000 meters as the minimum.
Hopefully when I get back in early August, I will have further information on how we are going. What he did say was that I would be given about a 200x200mm square to use as a sample that I will be able to cut up and send to a few of you for comment before we commit to anything.
Garry.
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I'm interested as well, please let me know..
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I am also in for an LHD guys... Euro edition with the plate on the firewall. I am also in for the footrests.
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Hi , I would really need a RHD one for my '67 250sl :)
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+ 1 for me. Mark
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I guess I should get a RHD one for later.................
Larry
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+1 for me please.
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I'm in for my 68 euro (cutout for dataplate on the firewall)
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Guys, what is the ETA on these? Hope no more than 6 weeks from now... ???
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Further Update
We are till in the process of trying to correctly identifying the base material and from there the exact method of production of the original material so that we can see if it can be correctly be reproduced.
I have dropped a piece of potential material provided by Alfred and others into the manufacturer, together with some detailed photos of a unused original firewall set I looked at in Tom Colitt's workshop in LA last week together with some measurements provided from Europe and it is now a wait and see. I don't think it will all be done and in production and the product available in six weeks.
Firstly the material has to be identified and reproduced, then the effect from the dies put into the material and then it has to be sent around the world to various people to each look and comment on its suitability before the go ahead is then given to the manufacturer to produce an initial run of the material. All the while, a decision needs to be made on the laser cutting or not of the patterns in left and right hand sets, the backing material to be used and attached to the top layer..
Unfortunately it is not that simple and is causing much discussion and exchange of information and material around the world. My confidence has gone from a certainty that it could be done to now not quite sure that we will be successful in the way I had hoped but it is still relatively early in the process and there are several fronts that are being followed up at the moment.
Garry
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The firewall pad on my 280SL is original. At PUB, a Tom noticed that a piece of the firewall pad has come loose right under the fuse box. Can anyone recommend a good adhesive to use to repair it?
Thanks!
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Further Update
We are till in the process of trying to correctly identifying the base material and from there the exact method of production of the original material so that we can see if it can be correctly be reproduced.
I have dropped a piece of potential material provided by Alfred and others into the manufacturer, together with some detailed photos of a unused original firewall set I looked at in Tom Colitt's workshop in LA last week together with some measurements provided from Europe and it is now a wait and see. I don't think it will all be done and in production and the product available in six weeks.
Firstly the material has to be identified and reproduced, then the effect from the dies put into the material and then it has to be sent around the world to various people to each look and comment on its suitability before the go ahead is then given to the manufacturer to produce an initial run of the material. All the while, a decision needs to be made on the laser cutting or not of the patterns in left and right hand sets, the backing material to be used and attached to the top layer..
Unfortunately it is not that simple and is causing much discussion and exchange of information and material around the world. My confidence has gone from a certainty that it could be done to now not quite sure that we will be successful in the way I had hoped but it is still relatively early in the process and there are several fronts that are being followed up at the moment.
Garry
Garry my pads are also still original but worn out. I can match clones if someone sends me a small sample...
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I would definately want one LHD...
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I would be interested.
Holden66
1966 230SL
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Count me in for 1 firewall pad 2 front footwell pads and the piece that goes around the wiper motor cavity on the inside
of the car in rhd Would prefere die cut firewall pad but then again beggers cant be chosers and just getting the correct pattern made would be fantastic
69 pogoda 280
71 2002ti
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Garry- I know your trying to work on this firewall pad and that's very exciting. I might have some leads on how you can regain your confidence in regards to this project. I've found a replica match for the material in the US. Each pad can be cut precisely using a cutting die. In addition, a specific tool needs to be made to the stamp out the pattern onto the material. The cost to make the tool is very expensive. But with the tool the material can be stamped to look just as good as the original fire pad. I'd love to discuss this further................
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PM sent.
Thanks
Garry
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It was earlier advised that the group has some excess funds, mulling over free membership extensions etc. I suggest that these funds be used for the die mentioned by Babak below.
I further suggest that if this comes to fruition, basic members (non-paying) be charged somewhat more. Not to punish them, but to provide extra value for the people that pay the bills and make the forum possible.
As an aside, I wonder if die cutting from the reverse side would make these appropriate for RHD cars?
Gus
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Hi Gus,
All these things you mentioned have been discussed with the Board and a plan for the way forward worked out and we are hopeful something will come of it all. From this point on we are really now looking for numbers of interested parties.
Thanks to all who have helped or offered to do so.
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... As an aside, I wonder if die cutting from the reverse side would make these appropriate for RHD cars?
Unfortunately the pads for LHD and RHD cars are not mirror images but quite different.
The photos are from Miller's Inc.
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Garry,
I am interested in a LHD set.
Thanks for working on this.
Mark
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Garry, I mentioned earlier that I was also interested in a set for LHD. At PUB this year it also became apparent that the firewall material was used in the trunk (as well as under the dash) so it would be useful if material could be purchased say by the metre or yard. Many thanks for undertaking this endeavor and it was great getting the chance to meet at PUB.
Cheers, Marcus
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To help us moving this project along it would be very useful knowing whether the interested parties prefer an original pad, that is, one having the correct diamond surface pattern and the amber-colored foam backing with a thickness of 4mm, or the more durable jute backing that was used by MB in the substituted material that was sold from about 1990 to 2007. The total thickness of that pad was about 7 mm. See attached photos.
The current aftermarket pad sold by several eBay vendors (including our member Babak aka "Benzrestorer") also uses a jute backing but is only 4 mm thick as was the original diamond-patterned but foam backed material.
Our intention is to provide the pads pre-cut for LHD cars (and perhaps also for RHD cars depending on how many orders being placed). We are not yet certain that the foam backing will be an amber color as the original or a gray/black color.
Please answer the following questions in the poll above:
I prefer to buy a pre-cut firewall pad with a close match to the original diamond pattern with:
(1) an approximately 4mm thick foam backing
(2) an approximately 4mm thick jute backing
(3) either one of the suggested backings.
Pro foam: A foam-backed material is like the original but in a few years will curl up at the edges that will be very difficult to repair. Vigilant maintenance of course can prevent the curling from occurring.
Pro jute: Jute-backed material will be less prone to curling at the edge and the edge will remain sharper and better contoured for a much longer time. Of course, it is not original compared to the 1964-1971 padding.
Voting will close in 2 weeks.
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Not sure of the specifics that led to this topic being moved to the members only section other than the reference to commercial interests but it appears to me we are blocking out a significant number of forum users who are potential consumers of thus product. In addition, the commercial guys that are out there may see some reason to be motivated into assisting by developing additional sources for the material. My two cents not knowing if there is some other reason for the move.
George
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George,
All will be shown in due course as discussions with suppliers and potential commercial outlets continues but be assured that both Members and Non Members will be given access to any end product that may come from the work being done.
Garry
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I haven't thought myself much interested in this issue since I have what appears to be original padding on the firewall. As my ignorance slowly clears (like the fog?) I learn that I'll need some for the interior and trunk. And, for that matter, the two firewall panels seem to've aged differently - for reasons unclear. The result is that, ideally, I may want the ability to buy 'open stock' material for elementary cutting into simple shapes as well as nice, precisely shaped, complex die-cut pieces, at least for the firewall - - and perhaps only one or the other of those two pieces! [And this without introducing RHD into it.]
Yes, I do realize that this sort of complexity is not good news in the planning phase of any project. "I'm jes' sayin", is the phrase, I believe. And likely I'm not the first to arrive at this realisation, so here's hoping the need can be met at this level. And if not, well then, that has to be the call of those what's doin' the doin'.
I quite agree that whatever the result of the efforts here turns out to be, it will be a vast improvement over the present reality and much appreciated by all. We do thank you, very much.
PS - Wouldn't it be nice to have this product in our Pagoda Shop ... where it would likely wind up if this were the 190SL Group? And who knows; we are a Group in transition, are we not?
All best,
Denny
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Let me state that I have zero interest in fire wall pads nor do I have any venture capitol I'd like to invest. If there ARE members here who are investing in such I'd be careful if I were you. The demand is relatively small given the number of cars made and there already is a fire wall pad available. It may not be correct but that's not always the main consideration for every buyer.
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Not sure of the specifics that led to this topic being moved to the members only section other than the reference to commercial interests but it appears to me we are blocking out a significant number of forum users who are potential consumers of thus product. In addition, the commercial guys that are out there may see some reason to be motivated into assisting by developing additional sources for the material. My two cents not knowing if there is some other reason for the move.
George
I second what George is saying. This thread should be for the eyes of everybody especially that the ones doing the effort are in desperate need for more buyers due to quantity requirements. How will more people know about this if it is hidden? ???
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...How will more people know about this if it is hidden? ???
Read reply #1 again. Is that not clear? ???
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I am sorry for starting all this.
It was really simple and that was as the article become more advanced it became really clear that source suppliers and or others were going to realise the value of the article and capitalise on it, gain the "who wants it list' and potentially shut us down through no supply. The Who Wants it List from this Forum was only a fraction of the market so we were trying to get the best price for our Members in the process.
It had nothing to do with the Board at that point who I discussed it with and realised other things/sources were happening that I was not aware of. We were not 'hiding' anything from members nor had any other hidden agenda. I and the Board were trying to get the cheapest and correct item to members. Others would trying to capitalise on it and gain sole rights to manufacture and distribution.
I would suggest that this discussion is destroying any chance that the Pagoda SL Group has of managing the supply and this discussion clearly shows, as I was warned, that it needs to be handed over to a commercial source and the Forum and its members may need to walk away from the end process. That unfortunately will mean that the end article will almost certainly increase greatly in price.
All I asked was for the "members" to give us a chance to further develop it. I said that all members and non members would be given access to supply and I repeat that again and also say there is no need for further assistance either physically or financially. There is a need for the Forum to allow us to get this to a finished state without trying to destroy.
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Dan. THEN LEAVE!
You remember our previous conversations on this.
Peter
I'm not sure why everyone has their balls in an uproar over this. :o Someone asked a question and I'm not sure if he/they were happy with the answer or not, but I guess we'll all find out in due time. Believe me, I'm not worried about what's going on with fire wall pads. If someone has an idea to reproduce them, have at it. I only cautioned everyone because I've been in parts sales long enough to know that even really good ideas don't always work out. I do hope that this one ( whatever it is ) works out for everyone. ;D
It's good to ask questions. And yes Peter, I remember our last conversation very well.
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I am sorry for starting all this.
It was really simple and that was as the article become more advanced it became really clear that source suppliers and or others were going to realise the value of the article and capitalise on it, gain the "who wants it list' and potentially shut us down through no supply. The Who Wants it List from this Forum was only a fraction of the market so we were trying to get the best price for our Members in the process.
It had nothing to do with the Board at that point who I discussed it with and realised other things/sources were happening that I was not aware of. We were not 'hiding' anything from members nor had any other hidden agenda. I and the Board were trying to get the cheapest and correct item to members. Others would trying to capitalise on it and gain sole rights to manufacture and distribution.
I would suggest that this discussion is destroying any chance that the Pagoda SL Group has of managing the supply and this discussion clearly shows, as I was warned, that it needs to be handed over to a commercial source and the Forum and its members may need to walk away from the end process. That unfortunately will mean that the end article will almost certainly increase greatly in price.
All I asked was for the "members" to give us a chance to further develop it. I said that all members and non members would be given access to supply and I repeat that again and also say there is no need for further assistance either physically or financially. There is a need for the Forum to allow us to get this to a finished state without trying to destroy.
Garry,
you post explains everything and I see where you're going with this. No one is, or was, trying to destroy anything. I might suggest that items like this be kept on the members only forum until you have all the ducks in a row. However, keeping an open secret is kind of hard to do.
As I said earlier, there is a pad available but it's the wrong one. If there's a potential market for these things I'm surprised that someone hasn't looked at that yet. Maybe they are anyway and the whole exercise will become an unfortunate coincidence if that's the case. It's all part of the parts biz.
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Hate to say it but one of you guys should have purchased my NOS pad when it was for sale. ;)
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Read reply #1 again. Is that not clear? ???
Yes it is clear, I read it. But if one guy will have to pay for 1000 meters of manufactured and cut pads, and then make it public and wait till members buy them... that wouldn't be logical right? On the other hand, if you keep it public now, you will have more and more members signing up and knowing about that option and keep their hopes up without investing in generic ones..
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I'll take a LHD set, too!
Thanks for putting forth the effort to get this going.
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Just to sound a negative note here, while I may be interested in purchasing one of the pads to replace the poor imitation now in my car, I do not believe it is proper to spend general Group funds for new pads. The expenditure will benefit only a few Group members while the funds belong to all the Full Members.
Those who want a pad, should cover all the expenses. The Group can be a good "meeting place" for those who need a pad but the Group should not, in my opinion, finance the pads.
Richard M, NYC
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Hello Richard,
Thank you for your input. Several people have suggested that the Group manage the firewall pad sourcing and distribution if successful and at the same time ensuring the recovery of all costs involved and making a small profit for all the full members.
However, several like your self, for differing reasons have indicated that the Group should not have anything to do with the process or sale.
At this point the Pagoda Group as the Group is not involved and if and when the few of us from the Forum that have been working on the problem finally come up with a solution that is acceptable to those interested in purchasing a pad or maybe just the material to do so, then a final decision will be made on how to fund and recover the costs associated with the development and supply. At this point we do not intend to involve the Pagoda Group for a number of reasons I don't wish to go into here on the Forum. I don't see that position changing in the near future.
Hope that meets and addresses some of your concerns.
Garry
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Hi All
Does anyone with RHD vehicle have either the old pad that they have removed that could be used to get a paper pattern or a new reproduction pad that I could get a pattern from.
I am trying to understand the sizes of the different pads and how if I had material, how to mix and match the patterns to utilise the amount of material used.
Could they please PM me.
Thanks
Garry
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Hi Garry,
I think I sent you a PM some time ago about wanting a RHD set.
If I didn't, I would like to buy a RHD firewall pad set.
Thanks
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Hi All,
Am still looking for a RHD firewall pad pattern taken from either an original one someone is removing or from a reproduction one that someone still has but not yet fitted??
Garry
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I would like to have a pad set if they are produced.
I didn't read all the messages but has anyone sourced it's manufacture in China or India?
Somewhere, I have the email address to a restorer in the US who actually has a roll of original material that he will only use on his own cars and will not
even consider selling...I tried!! Anyway, I could see if he'd reveal where he obtained it. I believe that he told me he got it in Germany from the original manufacturer. I fairly certain that he just hand cuts what he needs from the roll of material...it isn't pre-stamped. That's another way...get it made in rolls then use a template and then hand cut them rather than using expensive machine stamps.
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Hang tight!
In about 3 - 4 weeks we'll have what looks like a very promising update.
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Looks like Benz restorer (Babak on this forum?) beat you to it. Is offering pads that to my eye look very much like the original and are "peel and stick". Price quoted was about $300.
Gus
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The current aftermarket pad sold by several eBay vendors (including our member Babak aka "Benzrestorer") also uses a jute backing but is only 4 mm thick as was the original diamond-patterned but foam backed material.
I had reached out to collaborate on this project but the communications were shot down.
As noted, I have sold aftermarket ‘firewall pads’ on Ebay for the past four years. During this time, I received lots of concerns about the firewall pad being offered. This feedback allowed me to find this 'new' firewall pad that I believe is a great solution for any restoration project.
I can arrange for the price to be adjusted for Pagoda Members.
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Thought others might be interested in this, especially since Garry is spending so much time working on this. Vintage Europarts have just come out with a firewall pad they say has the original dimpled texture. ??? See http://www.vintageeuroparts.com/100073.html
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Jordan,
Its not the one we are working on, but is the same one mentioned by Gus on eBay by 'benzrestorer' now for USD$275 .
All will be revealed in a couple of days and most members will be very happy.
Garry
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Babak
You say, "I can arrange for the price to be adjusted for Pagoda Members."
What would the price be?
Gus
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Babak
You say, "I can arrange for the price to be adjusted for Pagoda Members."
What would the price be?
Gus
The Special Offer for Pagoda SL Group Members:
You must use this link to get the discount http://vintageeuroparts.com/100073.html
Get 20% off the Firewall Pad. Offer valid until October 27, 2011.
Use promo code: 4u280sl
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.... Vintage Europarts have just come out with a firewall pad they say has the original dimpled texture. ??? ....
Hello Jordan,
since "Imitation is the highest form of flattery" I am glad that we nurtured a copy cat with our endeavor to recreate the original firewall pad for the group. ;)
This new "Mercedes Diamond Pattern Firewall Pad" could be the greatest of app of this century but how do we know it is true given the meager real information that is provided?
Clearly the texture is a poor clone, two rows of alternating rows of a small and a large square just don't match the array of large raised circles and small impressed squares that the original has.
The surface grain is different and we are not told how thick it is and what the added "Insulation and Sound Dampening Material" is. We know that the original had either a foam (Moltopren) or a jute/felt backing.
But do not despair (or make a hasty purchase decision), we have located again the OEM material described previously by Tom LeClerc here:
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=4192.msg25868#msg25868
have procured sufficient quantity and are in the process of manufacturing precisely cut LHD pads for purchase at a very attractive membership price.
More details will follow in a new topic very shortly.
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since "Imitation is the highest form of flattery" I am glad that we nurtured a copy cat with our endeavor to recreate the original firewall pad for the group. ;)
I’m not trying to compete with anyone in regards to this product or hinder YOUR endeavor to recreate the original firewall pad.
I never used this forum as a means of promoting a future product release or getting customers to pre-order a firewall pad. Questions were raised and I responded.
Is this firewall pad the original firewall pad manufactured by Mercedes-Benz?
NO. The original firewall pad was DISCONTINUED.
Is this firewall pad the ‘next best thing’ on the market?
In my opinion, there currently is not a firewall pad on the market that is comparable.
Does a picture of the firewall pad reveal the quality of the product?
NO. Customers need to touch, see, and use it so they can come up with their own opinions.
Will everyone love this product?
NO. My goal is exceptional customer service and the products I supply are for that purpose. I can only strive for a 100% satisfaction by everyone.
The premise of my company is to provide new, used, restored, remanufactured parts and accessories to provide a one stop shop for the restoration of the classic Mercedes Benz. My company rebuilds becker radios, reconditions steering wheels, and provides an array of discontinued parts---not just the firewall pad........
I hope we can move forward and use this forum as for it’s original purpose:
“... as a source of information relating to the Mercedes W113 cars and to help maintain, restore, exhibit, and promote the ownership and admiration of these cars among the international community of W113 enthusiasts.....”
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I hope these pads will be available without the precut knockout for 230sl vehicle number plates which non 230 cars won't need and which detract from authenticity.
Gus
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Simple answer,
Yes.
Garry
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To all of you who are interested in purchasing a replicated firewall pad might be happy to learn that we have now reached a point where we can provide further details about the product and a more defined time line. To provide all members an opportunity to read the discussions that provided guidance for our initiative the topic has been moved back to the initial board and merged with another similar topic.
However, in order to better focus on the next step for the project - the purchasing phase - a new topic was started
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=15373) and this one will be closed.
Thank you all for your very valuable feedback!