Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => W11x chassis cars => Topic started by: perry113 on September 29, 2009, 02:55:07
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I came across another extremely worthwhile project that now sits in my garage awaiting thousands of hours worth of hard work. I beautiful 1970 280se once 3.5 that once lived a life in a private car collection only to end up being used a parts car by its next owner for a 1970 Cabriolet 3.5 conversion.
Essentially I am doing a conversion from a 3.5 (all is gone from the eight cylinder conversion) I have everything from the beneficiary, a 1970 6 cylinder cabriolet recipient.
This car is beautiful. Great body, paint, new wood and interior. Fantastic rust free floors and body. Clean clean clean. It even smells nice when you peruse its interior.
Due to my budget its in the best interest to make this car a near perfect 6 given all the left overs from the 6 cylinder cab.
I'm looking to connect with those who may have a 280SE 6 COUPE to reference hurdles along the way.
I love this car and can't wait to make her run and drive again.
I need a Mercedes shrink.
Help.
PDP
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Have you thought about a later motor? So you could keep the V8/3.5 or similar.
Mechatronik recently did a cab 5.6. It rides too high and looks a little odd but just wondering if there's a more powerful/modern/lighter motor that you could use to keep the power up
Not that one does anything but waft in an Se coupe
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Have you thought about a later motor? So you could keep the V8/3.5 or similar.
Mechatronik recently did a cab 5.6. It rides too high and looks a little odd but just wondering if there's a more powerful/modern/lighter motor that you could use to keep the power up
Not that one does anything but waft in an Se coupe
Thanks for your thoughts.
I have thought about another V8, but that essentially requires purchase of nearly another whole doner car to make it work. I would need engine, transmission, drive shaft, body and engine harness and all spot welded brackets under the hood.
With this car I have all of the above list of parts swapped out (essentially a doner) from a same year 1970 280se Cab. I can basically make it into a correct 2.8. It is what it is at this point.
Already starting prepping the engine bay for paint and installation of the 2.8 battery box. Also have started cleaning and sandblasting chassis parts. Will make the car correct and without mods. There weren't to many low nose 6's. I think the car will be alot of fun to go cruising around with the family.
Looking to connect with other 111 280se owners that may have the same car.
PDP
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I have the older sibling, a 1966 250 SE/coupe. Let me know if I can be of any help.
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/Waqas/200711816276_mercedes250se-coupe-side.jpg)
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Wow
I love your car! I may take you up on your offer. I'm finishing up some work on another 230SL this week. After that my after hours are dedicated to this 280 project. More to follow on this post.
PDP
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I own a 111.025 1970 280se cabriolet...I too am currently restoring the car. I have it completely apart and hope to be finished next summer. Please let me know if I can help!
Eric
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Hi,
I also have a 70 coupe factory 5 speed, I actually restored mine before starting on my Pagoda. In my opinion w111 coupes were by far the best looking ones produced! Right? ;)
Let us know.
Shaun
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Shaun,
Gorgeous car! Nice color combo too! ;)
So what is the color code? It looks slightly darker than my DB268.
Similarities: green/cognac, Euro lights, sunroof, ivory wheel.
Difference: foglights, high-grille/low-grille, early 250 trim vs. 280 trim, 4-sp vs. 5-sp.
I completely agree, this has to be one of the prettiest cars ever made, a stunning example of industrial design.
Would be cool to have a side-by-side photo session some day!
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/Waqas/200841113300_IMG_4748.jpg)
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Hi Waqas,
The color is a 291H dark olive green, at night it almost looks black, With this car I get so much looks that my wife would not allow me to drive it alone anymore ;D
I agree a photo session will be fun, perhaps in California! Within the next year or so would like to take a trip across the country to Northern CA and back. Sonoma county anyone? Stopping at a few vineyards enjoying the view and good wine!
Shaun
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Thanks to all for your responses.
I would love to see any and as many under the hood shots that cover the left and right side inner wheel well areas and the firewall area. I'm interested in the battery box and its 4 mounting bracket positions, the right inner fender well area that has a bracket spot welded on to accommodate tech voltage regulator and other relay boxes, and the entire fire wall area and all under hood wiring locations and electrical components.
I will soon post some pictures of the car.
Cheers.
PDP
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Peter,
I have already put my car in storage for the winter, if you can wait a week or so i'll be able to send you some images from my warehouse.
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Peter,
I have already put my car in storage for the winter, if you can wait a week or so i'll be able to send you some images from my warehouse.
Thanks for your interest in helping. I see your not too far away from where I reside.
I look forward to future conversations.
PDP
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Peter,
I'm not sure if you have this book below by Tim Slade, it's some what of a Bible for w111's. It is a must for restoring w111 coupes and sedans, there is a lot of useful detailed information, well worth the investment. They used to cost a lot less but now they have gone up in price. I just spotted one on eBay in UK for about $73.00
Here is the image:
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I'm currently in the process of restoring a 66 250SE convertible that has a lot of issues.
1. Colour has been changed from helblau (mid blue) to unknown metallic grey/gunmetal, including engine bay. Every panel has a blemish or defect of some kind so she will probably have to have a complete repaint. Trouble is, which colour?
2. Lots of welding required. (Now completed)
3. Chrome not rusted but a bit dull and thin, with some dents to the bumpers. Can't decide on whether to attend to this or not!
4. Original tan brown leather interior is not too bad, just not a very nice colour combo!
5. Soft top perished and in need of replacement. (Cabrio.de €1800)
6. Wood dash in poor condition and in need of (expensive) refurbishment.
7. Factory data sheet has revealed that the car was first sold in Sierra Leone! She's RHD and I have little history.
8. Mechanically sound but I do have a 280SE 3.5 V8 complete drivetrain which I'm tempted to install, but I worry that it will de-value the car.
(I may also have a 6.3 drivetrain........................!)
9. She'll be for sale when completed, but it would be nice to find the buyer now so they can specify the finish.
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Hi,
A 250se Cabrio in very good condition will bring $60K or so (In USA)
I'm not sure by changing the drive train you'll really be adding to the value!
Rust on these cars are worst than w113 (in most cases) specially the rear outer floors.
If the soft top frame is there and in good condition the canvas should not be that expensive. costs around $500.00
I would use a violin shop to repair the wood, your best bet & result.
I would leave every thing original including paint, anybody willing to buy this car as an investment would want to buy it as original as possible.
Hope this helps!
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Thanks for you input.
The soft top needs all three components, the canvas, the padding and the lining. They are a lot more complicated than the 113 tops and not as easy to fit.
The real question mark that I'm having difficulty resolving is whether to restore her to her original colour. The colour change was fairly comprehensive and so changing her back would be a lot more work than just repainting the outside.
I think I might just put her to one side and thinkabout i for a while.
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Peter,
I also have a '68 111024 (see attached picture). It is in good original shape (California) and have been doing a rolling restoration on it for the last two years. I am currently working on the front and rear wheel wells removing some minor rust and then restoring it. I can take some pictures if you like.
Something odd I found was the color of the splash shields. Mine appear to semi-gloss black on the back but BLACK undercoat on the front with no body color paint. The rest of the well is beige undercoat with body color sprayed on top. Can anybody confirm this?
Since there are so many 111 guys here, I have a question. Do you have to remove the lower windshield chrome strip in order to remove the air scoop?
Peter, let me know what pictures you need and I will send them to you.
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Since there are so many 111 guys here, I have a question. Do you have to remove the lower windshield chrome strip in order to remove the air scoop?
Yes, both lower trim strips need to be removed. Insane, I know.
The trim strip is held in place with a series of plastic body plugs, so a soft plastic spatula or trim remover tool would be best. The ends of the trims pieces are held in place with a welded-on bolt and nut. Watch out for paint scrates as you work with this end.
It may be possible to slightly lift up the trim strips from the center, just enough to remove the 3-4 screws that hold the air scoop in place, but I didn't try this for fear of damaging the trim.
I replaced my air flap filter and rubber gasket last year, along with removing and re-lubing all my heater cables. There are a few rubber plugs used in that area, which I also replaced.
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Something odd I found was the color of the splash shields. Mine appear to semi-gloss black on the back but BLACK undercoat on the front with no body color paint. The rest of the well is beige undercoat with body color sprayed on top. Can anybody confirm this?
Hi W.
Yes the splash shied is all black front and back, the plash guard is a piece that was installed after the car was painted, that is why it does not have the same color & under coating.
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Something odd I found was the color of the splash shields. Mine appear to semi-gloss black on the back but BLACK undercoat on the front with no body color paint. The rest of the well is beige undercoat with body color sprayed on top. Can anybody confirm this?
Hi W.
Yes the splash shied is all black front and back, the plash guard is a piece that was installed after the car was painted, that is why it does not have the under coating.
It's amazing how your w111 is green also! 291H olive green?
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Waqas,
That is insane! What a pain to change the filter. You did exactly what I want to do but I am chicken because of the chrome trim. Thanks for detailed description. It will definitely help. That frontal picture of your w111 is really nice. I love the Euro headlights!
Shaun,
Thanks for the confirmation. Actually, my splash shields do have undercoating but it is BLACK not beige and it is on the front only. In fact the undercoating is sprayed all the way to the edges and the rubber seal strip is then put on top of that. Does that sound correct (can send pics if you want)? My car is 291 Dark Olive Green. Not real common but I like it. My favorite is probably Waqas' color but I have grown to really love the olive green. I guess it is an acquired taste. As with Waqas' w111, the Euro lights are great. The five speed trans I am sure is fantastic to drive.
I don't have whitewalls on it now but will soon. As I am going through the wheel wells, I am also powder coating the rims and adding new Phoenix tires. I found a great powder that has the exact sheen of the original MB black. Can't wait to see how it looks with the white walls.
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That is insane! What a pain to change the filter. You did exactly what I want to do but I am chicken because of the chrome trim. Thanks for detailed description. It will definitely help.
I forgot to mention: re-installing the trim was a real nightmare! The piece needs to slip into the rubber windshield gasket (laterally), whilst being pushed down into the body plugs (vertically). Oh, and all this without damaging the trim or scratching the paint. I have a lot of respect for those who can do this with ease and skill.
Another thought: perhaps you can replace the filter and rubber seal from the front cowl opening (after removing the chrome screen). In my case, I was also replacing the fresh-air flap cable sheath, so had to remove the cover. Careful about dropping anything back there; it either leads to the two drain pipes in the firewall, or ends up getting wedged in a couple tight corners; the surface is curved/slanted slightly in order to force any water to emerge through the drain pipes.
That frontal picture of your w111 is really nice. I love the Euro headlights!
I have a spare [used] set of Euro lights and chrome rings in the garage somewhere. I had planned on eventually putting them on fleabay or the MBCA for-sale section. Interested?
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Waqas,
Thanks for the offer! I have a lot of other things I have to spend on first unfortunately. Someday......
I do need to replace the gasket around the windshield, so I will put off removing the scoop until then. Thanks for your thoughts.
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I would love to see any and as many under the hood shots that cover the left and right side inner wheel well areas and the firewall area.
Hi Peter,
I have some images from my coupe engine compartment, Please let me have your email address so I can forward them to you,(files are too large for the forum)
I just want to remind you that my car is a Euro model not sure if there is any thing different between the two!
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I talked with Bob Platz who owns a restoration shop and is very knowledgeable about 111s. He in fact, wrote an article in the Star about about a cabrio restoration http://www.mbca.org/pages/Star/articles/TheStar_0108.pdf .
Anyway, he said that without a doubt, the splash shields and the lower rocker covers were installed after the car was painted body color. The splash shield was semi-gloss black on the back and BLACK undercoat on the front. The lower rockers covers have a much smoother "chip guard" coating on the front of them and are black on both sides.
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Hi Peter,
I have some images from my coupe engine compartment, Please let me have your email address so I can forward them to you,(files are too large for the forum)
I just want to remind you that my car is a Euro model not sure if there is any thing different between the two!
Thank you for your help. My email is www.pperry444&juno.com
Here are a few shots of the car including the very last traces of the 3.5 firewall.
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Battery box in, engine compartment and front and rear suspension painted. Looks great. Car will be a roller this weekend and going to my shop.
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WOW Peter,
I'm Impressed! :)
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As of Friday night project 111 became a roller again. It took 2 1/2 hours to install the front suspension, steering box, tie rods etc. and rear suspension. We trailored the car from Ensign's to my shop.
After 3 hours of organization, parts everywhere, I was able to reinstall the wiper linkage and am now in the process of sizing up the heater core assembly. Need to clean it up and replace all hoses. Once I get this in order along with the ducts I can layout the wiring harness.
Lot's of work ahead, but am feeling good about it.
Happy holidays to all that have helped me move this along.
PDP
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(This may have been covered) Low hood? Putting a straight six in? Hydro rear compensator? Manual tranny? A/C?
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(This may have been covered) Low hood? Putting a straight six in? Hydro rear compensator? Manual tranny? A/C?
Has someone else gone through resurrecting a victimized 3.5 coupe used for its V8 parts by going to 6?
Yes my car is a low nose car, I believe all 3.5's were low nose.
The car's rear end I put in does not have a hydro rear compensator, just a spring, it came out of the 70 Cabriolet.
The driveline from the same Cab is an automatic and it does have AC.
The hardest part of this project is the re-installation of the wiring harnesses which again came from the 6 cylinder 70 Cabriolet. I will have the assistance of the guys who took the cars apart to do the 3.5 conversion. Aside of that its pretty straight forward.
PDP
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Does the 6 fit under the low hood?
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There were a small number of 6 cylinder 111 low hoods made. They changed the body to the low hood just before they installed the 3.5 V-8.
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I wanted to update my progress with the 280SE. The wiring was the biggest hurdle for me getting this project going. Luckily, part of this car deal was having George, the man that engineered the cabriolet 3.5 conversion to come down to the shop and start laying the harness' (many) back into the car. Both cars were fully documented and everything labeled. Thank God George took detailed shots of the cabriolet under the hood. The pictures have helped tremendously. Without this I or anyone else would be lost. We are probably 75% done getting it all back in and wiring the fuse box. It's a game of connecting the dots. The car has really come a long way. But there is so much more to do. I had all the calipers rebuilt and reinstalled. I need to replace all the brake lines. Ones out of the cabriolet are kinda suspect. As for the motor the cabriolet was running well. I will end up replacing the waterpump and alternator while its on the bench. Need to do lots of detail work and get it ready to put it in.
Wish me luck as continue down this long road.
Here are a few pictures.
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Peter - a labor of love! I would have been lost months ago - electricity is still my strong point. :o In spite of all the steps I take to disconnect power, I still get those 'zaps' that make my ears ring!
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Looking Good Peter!
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I really came far tonight with the wiring. I'm out of the woods. George came down and completed the fuse panel wiring. All harness's are back in the car. I have made an order for some missing fasteners. Lot's of checking and little details. Next order of business will be to put the steering column/ignition, gauges and radio.
It's so wonderful to see the harness fall back in like a glove. I only had to drill 3 holes total. Whether its a 2.8 or a 3.5 the provisions are there.
All the thanks goes to George. He's a genius.
More pictures will be posted shortly.
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Peter,
I hope you'll have it ready for a w111 get together at Lake George! maybe in May? ;)
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We may have to make it a 113 party in May. The 230SL is ready to roll.There's so much more to do on project 111.
Here are a few more pictures.
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Peter,
I noticed in your last picture that the oval fuse box is below the dash on the far left side. Is that the original location for your car? My '68 111 fuse box is in the engine bay on the firewall on the far left side. I didn't know they were different?
Great job on the car! I admire your courage in taking on this project. Can't wait to see more pictures as it progresses.
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I noticed in your last picture that the oval fuse box is below the dash on the far left side. Is that the original location for your car? My '68 111 fuse box is in the engine bay on the firewall on the far left side. I didn't know they were different?
The low grill w111 coupes had their fuse box inside in the leg compartment, I think it was changed early 69.
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Peter,
I noticed in your last picture that the oval fuse box is below the dash on the far left side. Is that the original location for your car? My '68 111 fuse box is in the engine bay on the firewall on the far left side. I didn't know they were different?
Great job on the car! I admire your courage in taking on this project. Can't wait to see more pictures as it progresses.
Shaun is right. Sometime in 69 they moved the fuse panel to under the dash. The 1970 2.8 and 3.5 have the fuse panel in the identical locations. Had the Cabriolet been an earlier 69 high nose the whole project would really never had worked.
I referenced a 69 coupe recently and found everything was different. Wiring, relays, ac unit under dash. There were some big differences.
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I'm trying to identify these rectangular like washers.
Can anyone identify?
Cheers
PDP
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Peter, I don't think these parts belong to a w111, as I have never seen them.
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I have never seen them on my 111 as well. But, I have not been through the whole thing (yet).
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Those washers came out of that car. Trying to jog George's memory.
I made the 2 rear axle brake lines as the old ones are cruddy. I wll end up fabricating all other metal lines.
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I'm trying to identify these rectangular like washers...
Peter,
Those look a lot like the washers used to fix the taillight cluster assembly of a W114/115 to the body (4 per side).
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Jaco may be on to something.
My 111 just came from the body shop and the guy there is knowledgeable about these cars. He was putting the taillights back in and he noticed that the washer and nuts that secure the lens and frame (4 studs) to the body were missing. The only thing holding the light assembly in were the (4) large plastic nuts. He said that is a problem because you cannot fully tighten the lens to the body with those plastic nuts thus preventing leaks.
Is it possible that these oval washers are the ones for taillight lenses? The holes in the body are somewhat oversized so a large washer would be called for.
Something to look at.
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My 111 just came from the body shop and the guy there is knowledgeable about these cars. He was putting the taillights back in and he noticed that the washer and nuts that secure the lens and frame (4 studs) to the body were missing. The only thing holding the light assembly in were the (4) large plastic nuts. He said that is a problem because you cannot fully tighten the lens to the body with those plastic nuts thus preventing leaks.
Is it possible that these oval washers are the ones for taillight lenses? The holes in the body are somewhat oversized so a large washer would be called for.
Hi W,
There are little washers & I think 8mm nuts that mount the tail lights to the body, the plastic knobs that get mounted to the same studs are there just to hold the back housing are only used to replace bulbs. That's the way I have always seen them.
Cheers,
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Bad news on the oval washers. Looked at mine tonight and there is a definite ROUND washer impression on the back panel so those oval washers don't fit there (at least on my year). Those holes in the body are large probably 10mm and the studs are 4-5mm so decent sized washer is needed.
Shaun is correct about taillight mounting hardware. It is amazing how much stuff gets left off in a car's life like the nuts and washers for the taillights. I have had some water get behind that rear panel and cause some minor rust. Some of it probably came in around those loosely held taillights.
Good luck on those washers and let us know if you find out what they were for!
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Just ran across this site on the web. I don't know if it has previously been posted but thought to list it here. The link is to w111's in various colors and the site can link to other models. Thought it might be of interest to see coupes in different colors.
http://www.oldtimer-farbtabelle.de/overview.php?idtitel=W111_Cpe
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http://www.oldtimer-farbtabelle.de/overview.php?idtitel=W111_Cpe
Good find, Thanks
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I'm trying to identify these rectangular like washers.
Can anyone identify?
These eight washers are usually lodged in the rubber gasket that sits between the steering column housing and the firewall.
I have a spare steering column showing the arrangement, but can't post pics until I return from overseas travels near the end of the month.
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Wow! Thanks for the research.
I am getting together with George for another round to solve many questions, one of which are these mystery washers.
I have temporarily fit the brake pedal assembly back in the car. Question to be answered before it is put in for good is the arrangement of the wiring loom below the gauges. The loom branches out under the speedo. Not sure if the thicker part of the harness is strapped down or travels loosely above the rear mounting portion of the brake pedal assembly and over the side window vent tube.
This all has to get done in order to put the steering column back in. And yes, there is a firewall plate with a rubber seal. It may make sense that these washers would go inbetween the rubber and the plate.
I need to take some pictures over the weekend to post.
Cheers.
Thank you to all who are following my journey to get project 111 together.
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I am happy to say project W111 ran for the first time in its new anatomy as a low nose 6. I have not had much time to circle around her like a hawk on it pray until I had the chance this evening. She's running on all 6 and sounding better each minute. It's a great feeling.
After a few electrical gremlins and no time finish, now everything all makes sense. Lights, gauges, action. I ran her on and off for more than 30 minutes and now I have something to work with. The car now has brakes. I am exited to get through final sort outs and road testing.
More to follow.
Cheers
Peter
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I am pleased to report that Project W111 drives like a dream. I ran her around the block and filled her up. She shifts so smoothly. Regardless of any temperature she engine fires up on a dime.
I still have 3 mystery wires under the hood to find homes for. One of the wires is a hot long brown with a green strip on it that runs from the passenger side of the firewall. I also have 2 other wires that run from the left side of the firewall. One is also hot (red with yellow strip). I believe this may go the the solenoid on the injection pump which is not connected to anything at this point. There is also another wire which is ground (brown with black strip) which I think goes to a sensor on the driver side of the engine block. See pictures.
I would love to find someone that has a US spec automatic Cabriolet or Coupe to reference. I did look at a Euro 70 auto but it was totally different. It did not have the solenoid on the injection pump, nor did it have the sensor on the driver's side engine block. It was also different in that it did not have a transistor style ignition like mine.
Thanks to those that have helped me to get to this point.
Cheers
Peter
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I have a vague recollection of rewiring a 280 coupe many years ago, I recall there was an extra hot wire taped off in the harness for the power windows. On the USA models the windows switch off with the ignition, on the euro models they are hot all the time, depending wich wire was attached to the fuse block on the right firewall.
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Have a '69 280SE high hood coupe with electric windows. Glad to help you. .. 617 947 6399
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I have put together a picture link of Project W111. I have to update the pictures to show the interior all back together.
Thanks to all for all of your help.
Peter
http://picasaweb.google.com/peterperry911113/1970280SECoupe#
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Heroic effort! BTW I have an NOS 111 RS taillight if you're interested, bought it from a guy who misidentified as a 113 part. If you're interested, let me know, you can have it for what I paid (about $400).
Thanks!
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Actually, check that. My taillights are all red versions. Never mind...