Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Research & Development => Topic started by: mkbull on July 27, 2009, 18:36:16
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Thought I would start a new thread for those interested
I now have the getrag in position and the gear shift linkage which is a combination of the original (the bit you can see) and the BMW linkage (the bit you cannot see) seems to work really well. the car is not yet ready for road trials but getting closer all the time.
The gearbox support proves to be a little more challenging than I had earlier imagined.
I did try adapting the existing bottom plate which mounts the single rubber mounting for the original gearbox but I did not like the end result.
After trying a couple of alternatives I have opted to go for a fabricated cross member beam that utilizes existing bolt holes on the pagoda and the original BMW rubber mounts (only £24.00 each and available next day from the BMW dealership).
Tried several methods to establish the correct angle/tilt for the engine/gearbox assembly since this is determined by height of the gearbox mounts, and thus getting the geometry of the new mounting assembly correct was not too easy. despite the help of autocad and a co2 laser for cutting the templates it still took 4 attempts to get bang on.
I plan to do add a topic about the RHD handbrake conversion to correct side for those who have asked.
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I have a Getrag installed in my car. Luckily it was on the car when I purchased it. BTW the install was done in 1980 by Alex Dearborn.
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I have one on my 73 BMW 3.0CSI and it is a very nice transmission. Some one should come up with a complete kit including the cross member beam , linkage, etc...
abe
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Well hopefully I am just about there with the full kit.
mainly consists of:-
1) gear shift linkage
2) gearbox support cross member
3) bellhousing adaptor plate,
4) (m130 manual flywheel -only needed if converting from an auto car).
There are a few other ancillary bits and pieces.
I made the adaptor plates some time ago -already got one 220 Sedan usding the adaptor plate for over a year now. and the owner thinks the 5 speed getrag car is a dream to drive compared to before the conversion.
I have now made the linkage its pretty simple just half the bmw getrag linkage attached to half of the Merceds linkage. Its a little more than that but no big engineering feat.
The cross member is in the pictures above it utilises the original bmw rubber mounts. the components including the adaptor plates are all laser cut so repeat precision is no issue.
recently sent two full sets down to members in london and one off to germany and they are all going in at this moment.
It looks like Ejm will have the first UK 5 speed getrag pagoda up and running with the full kit installed within the next week or so. I am waiting for his test drive with baited breath - although my engine and gearbox setup will all be complete soon i dont expect to have my own car on the road until spring next year (weekend restorer....)
Mark UK
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Mark,
Do you have parts to install a Getrag 265 into a 1970 280SL, manual transmission?
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I have a Getrag in my 280SL and used Mark's conversion kit. (also have a ZF on order to put away) It is a dream to drive and a vast improvement over the 4 speed. I also have a 3.46 rear end so whilst I have lost some of the acceleration on 5th it is operating as a pure overdrive.
I just love it.
Garry
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Hello
Its been a while since I did any further development on the kit but here is the latest news...
It seemed that for a number of people the conversion bottleneck was not acquiring the Getrag Gerabox (they seem reasonably easy to obtain) but getting hold of an early bmw prop shaft was becoming a problem. I had several people asking if I could acquire them on their behalf during 2012 and indeed I did manage to find 5 prop ends over a period of several months. These went pretty much as quickly as I could find them and I was unable to source any more despite having a few people in a state of limbo with their conversions.
I decided to go back to the drawing board and "design out" the need for an old bmw propshaft end.
Here is the answer(http://)
The new hybrid flexi is water jet cut from 33mm neoprene then inserted with six steel bushes.
3 holes are 12mm BMW pcd - 3 holes are 10mm Mercedes pcd.
The originals were made from rubber and I could still have used that material-Neoprene is 67 shaw strength that’s slightly stronger than the original rubber disks. More importantly it is almost impervious to oil so will not deteriorate.
More or less an identical copy of the BMW flexi disk … except…. One set of 3 holes takes the bmw output shaft pcd from the gearbox, the other set of 3 holes accepts the Mercedes prop end.
Voila! – no more need for an 80s bmw prop end (becoming the holy grail to find).
Mark
"my wife says I take no notice of her - at least I think that's what she said"
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when will you be doing an Auto version for those with only 2 pedals? ;D
In awe here!
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Hi James
Well - if you mean Auto to 5 speed Manual, the only real obstacle was the flywheel, NLA from Mercedes for some time. ( I have now made several lightweight flywheels for owners including myself to get past this hurdle).
If you mean Auto to modern Auto - Well that would be another challenge........
Mark
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Hi Mark,
Having done your 5 speed conversion in a manual, I think you need to start to think about the 5 speed in an auto. Now that would really improve things and get around the axle change over that many have done as well. ;D ;D ;D ;)
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Mark
What Garry said!
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It's 2013. Why a 5-speed? If you are going to all that effort, why not a 6, 7 or better?
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My land rover has an 8 spped box and is a ZF if that helps! ;D
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Anything that involves installing electronics is a retrograde step in my view.
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I am always on the look out for these boxes and they don't come up for sale very often.
However,I have just been offered 8 getrag 265 5 speed boxes, all reportedly in good order and all without the mechanical speedo drives.
They are £1000 but if I buy all of them I can have them for £900 each. I will want two of them so I can offer six people a chance to buy this very rare box for £900 plus shipping.
They do not come with a guarantee but the supplier, someone I know well, assures me that they are all in good order. At this price and considering how difficult they are to come by I think they're a bargain. I'll need to move quickly though so speak up if you want one. Reply here if you do and the first 6 people that appear below this post will be the people that get them. After that you can put yourself on the reserve list.
stick
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Hi Colin
Some people must be finding them, because 9 of my new flexi disks went out last week! mostly to USA.
I only made 10 in the first batch so I am underway manufacturing the next batch right now. As I mentioned earlier, the correct era BMW prop shaft was becoming more of the holy grail to source and you needed this (or at least the end of it) to complete the conversion. I have a deal with the biggest breakers organization in the North of England that they will give me every one that they come across but after the last batch of five, last year, they completely dried up. Anyhow fortunately this is no longer an issue.
I've had a number of people asking me if I can help find the gearbox and I have sourced quite a few now but didn't get one for everyone who asked so Ill go back through my emails and tell them that you possibly have a few Getrags - sounds good.
Mark
Picture of my own 5 speeder!!
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What a beautiful photo - thanks for posting!
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thanks Mark,
Like I said, I've been having great difficulty finding them here in the UK. Maybe they're easier to find in the US?
I don't recall seeing a report on here that your car is finally finished!!
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Mark, if you find one, please let me know. My deal for one dried up- the box was damaged when I got it and I had no confidence that it had actually been rebuilt properly. There was obvious wear on the throwout bearing sleeve and one of the threaded bosses where the shifter mounts was cracked through. I've asked them for a refund and they have the unit now. If you find one, I am very keen to hear of it and buy it from you. I am still looking for one.
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Jim,
Did you mean to address Mark or are you addressing me?
Edit,
I just re-read your other posts and realise you need a sport box rather than an o/drive one.
please confirm either way.
Stick
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I am living in Belgium and just a few days ago purchased a 1966 230 sl. Manual transmission.
Egine is running very well. But ratio (probably 4,08) is to short. Known problem.
I would like to keep all original parts aside.
So who can provide and install a complete Getrag 5 speed with appropriate differential in the neighborhood of Belgium. Or if for instance in England, possibility to bring in the car and drive out 1 or two days later.
I guess :
1) or we keep 4,08, then we need an overdrive Getrag
2) or we change 4,08, then we need a 5-speed Getrag, no overdrive
I would like to have all done completely. What would be the price level I should think about.
Also preferable keeping all original parts aside, for value of the car.
If it is to close to the price of an original ZF-5 speed installation in Germany, then it is not wise, I guess.
best regards, Rudy
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Rudy,
Purchase of S/H Getrag: £1000 (maybe £900, see above)
Overhaul of s/h Getrag: £600
Purchase of mechanical speedo drive (fitted during o/haul) £300
Mark's kit: (how much are the kits now Mark?) Lets say £500
My fitting: (say 10 hours max) £800.00
Total £3200 plus taxes.
Half the price of the ZF 5 speed if you can actually get one.
Colin
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Hallo MKBULL, when you use your new flexi disk with the pagoda transmission-shaft, how short you cut it so that it will work ? The BMW getrag is longer than Mercedes 4 gear. What is the price for the new flexi disk?
Thanks 4 your answer
Araldo
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Hallo Mark your personal message is full
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I am working with Mark on developing his kit further so let me know what you want to ask him and I'll pass it on.
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Resurrecting this as I have an issue with abbot tech cable x boxes in that I can't get them to work reliably.
Anyone who has used this option please get in touch.
Colin
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Sorry you're having so much trouble. My Cable-X is over 5 years old and still working. It does have a occasional wobble but settles down quite accurately.
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The trouble I'm having is not one of mechanical installation, rather compatability of components supplied by Abbot.
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Hello there everyone on the forum, I spoke to Mark Bull a couple of years ago about the Getrag 265 conversion and was hoping to get a 5 speed installation started by spring 2014, but Marks website is down and my previous links all lead to nowhere ... does anybody know if Mark is still involved in suppling the conversion hardware ?? thanks ...... PS I have been running my 113 for over 25 years now and use it as a daily driver ..... (not in the winter) ....
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Yes, he is still doing them but I am working with him to improve the design a little. I spoke to him last week. If you can't get hold of him you can speak to him through me. I offer complete packages using Mark's kit but am having trouble with speedo drives at the moment. I have a solution in the pipeline but no date for delivery as yet.
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Thats great news ... I'm planning to take the Pagoda on a trip round Italy next year and I could do with some longer legs than the 4 speed manual has on offer .... How is availability on the Getrag 265 boxes ... is there a source or do I just start hunting ??? ....
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Yes, he is still doing them but I am working with him to improve the design a little. I spoke to him last week. If you can't get hold of him you can speak to him through me. I offer complete packages using Mark's kit but am having trouble with speedo drives at the moment. I have a solution in the pipeline but no date for delivery as yet.
Stick,
among design improvements you should consider a system that retains the tunnel lower plate. I had a discussion with Mark some time ago and he was of the opinion that the Pagoda's shell was overbuilt and didn't really need this lower plate to keep it stiff. That may be ok for leisure cruising but may be more of an issue in case of spirited driving, especially if the car has been fitted with uprated an stiffer suspension springs (higher probability among owners interested by a 5 speed transmission).
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I have talked at length with Mark about it and we are both of the opinion that a stronger cradle than the one he was supplying is perfectly sufficient. There is SO much strength in that area already, much more than any other car I've seen naked. Mark is an experienced engineer and with some input from me we think the result is good.
The problem with trying to keep the original plate is it's impossible to squeeze the Getrag between it and the transmission tunnel. some people have already had to modify their transmission tunnel to accept the Getrag but with the new cradle it's not necessary.
Now, I still need a speedo solution!
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Well, this is reassuring me to some extent as it is one of the points I wanted to revise on my car. Are you planning on a stronger cradle because the current one is weak (it bends upwards if a floor jack is used under it) or for shell stiffening purposes?
Now, I still need a speedo solution!
I heard of someone having a speedo modified on r107 with a GPS speedo. Odometer becomes digital though.
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The cradle is modified to be stronger in all respects.
I've been offered GPS based solutions but don't want to do that for a number of reasons, not least because I'm not sure of the legality of it here in the UK.
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BMW have a worm drive for the 256 box, I used one but the only problem it is so expensive that in some cases it is more than the box itself.
Garry
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Garry, they no longer supply it.
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HI, I AM NEW TO THE FORUM AND INTEND TO CONVERT MY AUTO TO 5 SPEED MANUAL. DO WE HAVE A CONTACT FOR MARK BULL TO PURCHASE A CONVERSION KIT THANKYOU GORDON WALTON
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Hi...
You could start by trying to send mkbull (http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=2175) a private message. Switching off BOLD and your CAPS lock would be nice too.
See Etiquette (http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=9648.0). If this all fails I'll send Mark a message and alert him to this post. We do not disclose e-mail addresses.
Peter
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Thanks Peter
I've sent Gordon a message and passed on my direct contact details.. The kit is still available.
Best Regards Mark
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What BMW carries this gearbox?
Thanks
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Hi Gordon
We spoke on the phone regarding conversion, you left message about pedal set and I mislaid your number. Do you still require?
Regards
John
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I have his email address.
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Hi Mark,
Trying to contact you re my '66 W111 and making use of your kit - seems that your PM box is full. How can I reach you?
Thanks
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280SL050
Look here:
http://forums.turbobricks.com/archive/index.php/t-188163.html
if you find a 265 Getrag beware there are 2 different versions. One is the desirable overdrive unit and one is a sport 5 speed where the top ratio is the same as the 4 speed Mercedes transmission.
The other issue is the later transmissions do not have a mechanical speedometer gear and the gears are no longer available from BMW which means you have to have some sort of electronic converter for your speedometer.
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My electronic speedo solution is now ready to go.
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Has anybody ordered a speedometer cable to a getrag conversion from Speedy Cables?
I would like to place an order and it would help if I could name someone that has already ordered from them (for a LHD car).
They could just look from their file and make a similar cable...
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I have, but Speedy cables really know their stuff , should be no problem.
Mark
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http://www.taflexa.de/Frame.htm
I get it here. No problems
Peter
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Mark
I tried to explain to Anthony at Speedy Cables what I wanted. He wrote it would be easier if I could name someone who has already ordered a similar cable (They could just check from their files).
Peter
It would be even more difficult for me to explain it in German language... :)
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Ok Petri PM sent.
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Have you really been able to fit the Getrag in place, aligned with the propshaft and clearing the tunnel walls?
Mine is now leaning against the left side of the tunnel (where the handbrake is) :-\
The engine mounts are almost new as well as the subframe mounts. I tried to adjust the subframe in order to turn the engine/tranny assembly away from the wall. No luck.
Any suggestions?
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Ok Petri PM sent.
Thanks, Mark!
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Problem solved!!! :) I think... ::)
I moved the aluminum mounting bracket on the right side of the engine block about 3 mm backward (had to enlarge the bolt holes). This changed the engine (and gearbox) alignment. Now the gap between the gearbox and the transmission tunnel wall is about 6 mm.
I will have to move the gearbox rubber mounts in the cradle a few millimeters because they are now pulling towards the hand brake...
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I think you'll find that by doing that you will have created a whole raft of problems, not least of which is moving your c of g forward thus affecting your weight distribution. I would expect the steering to be heavier and the car will have a tendency to under steer or "push" as you westerners like to call it. Possibly more oversteer too! It's not something I would choose to mess around with on a pagoda.
Actually, having just re-read your post, you only butchered ONE engine mounting bracket? So now your thrust line is canted too? Your prop shaft coupling is not going to like that!
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the transmission output flange and the rear axle input flange need to rotate in parallel plans, or you will have vibrations.
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The alignment of the thrust line is quite easy to check. Install the flex disc to the gearbox flange. Then connect the propshaft flange with the flex disc but leave the bolts loose. Turn the propshaft by hand and watch the gap between the flange and the disc. The gap should not fluctuate.
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Hi Colin,
What further developments are you working on? I have an overhauled box and the kit but haven't got round to having it fitted yet so if there are some new options to improve it I would like to know about them.
Regards
Peter
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I have done 5 conversions so far and none have been the same.
I have a custom electronic speedo drive because the gears to drive the speedo cable are no longer available. This started life as a box I bought from the USA but it turned out to be unreliable, as was their customer service so I had an electronics engineer rip out the electronics and start again. The result is a much better product that comes pre-calibrated according to the vehicle's tyres and diff ratio. We are working on a MKII version that will eliminate the speedo cable entirely.
Until the last one I have not had to modify the transmission tunnel.
I have had a drawing done of the propshaft mods and so I can simply send a prop to my preferred company and refer them to that.
I have researched and selected several different propshaft couplings because I've had a couple of premature failures.
All in all I would say that this retro-fit should be undertaken by experienced engineers who can ensure that each fit works with each car.
For this reason I will not be offering my mods as an over-the-counter kit.
My electronics engineer may consider offering the speedo drive to market but there is no time scale.
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Did you find when doing your Getrag conversions that the box fouled the tunnel adjacent to the hand brake as experienced by Star 63 in earlier recent posts?
I ask because I am about to convert my 230 to 5 speed
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Of the 5 I have done only the last one needed to have some modification around the handbrake area. This despite the fact that I cut and grind the redundant lugs from the back of the box.
It's also noteworthy that the BMW rubber mountings are getting increasingly difficult to find and I may have to try straight bobbin type mountings on the next one which will mean a cradle re-design.
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Thank you Colin. I think some careful bashing is called for
My box is from a Monza with a central mount close to the speedo take off which I am intending to use instead of the 2 side lugs or do you think this will impose too much load on the tail of the box?
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If it was good enough for the Monza then one must presume that it will be good enough for a Pagoda!
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I've been driving my Getrag conversion now for about a week.
Very happy! :) 8) :)
(3,92 diff.)
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2 years..... ;D
Peter
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I have not been on this forum for a while. I purchased the kit to install the Getrag 265 in my 1969 280SL. The transmission is in and seems to shift well. The shop that has done most of the work elected to make up a shift linkage yoke machined to fit the application.
Several years ago I had a 4.5 sedan rear axle set installed in my car in an attempt to correct the high revs at highway speeds. Fortunately the old axle was still around (I think these are about 3.93:1?) and I was able to find it and bring it to them to put into my car. They are currently going through the original axle- boot clamps, bearings, pinion seal, etc- before putting it back in the car. I was not able to find a 265 dog box with the 1:1 fifth gear, so we had to use one with the OD fifth, which is just as well- the 4.5 rear axle is a bit noisy and I think it needs going through before it goes into another car.
They hope to have the car done in the next month. (this has been a "work on it when time available" project, but with spring almost here, I would like to be driving the car.
We have not dealt with the speedometer issue yet. What have other folks in the USA done? I would like to have the cable drive speedometer that is original to the car remain in it. Can a cable be made up to drive the VDO speedo and can I have a speedometer shop adjust the VDO speedometer to read accurately with the Getrag 265 transmission?
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You may have your speedometer re-calibrated but your odometer will still read the wrong distance. The best is to fit a gear ratio adapter like one of these (https://www.google.com.af/search?q=gear+ratio+adapter&biw=1093&bih=498&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiDyJ3mi8zMAhWF1h4KHa5bDMEQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=_).
You can use a BMW cable for the part between the trans and the adapter, and a Mercedes cable between the speedo and the adapter. There are companies that modify the cables to fit your application. You want the adapter in the engine bay and not under the dash as it is a bit noisy and you will hear it if inside the car.
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Thank you. Do you know of a manufacturer for this item? I gather it corrects the ratio as well as giving the cables something to plug into.
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Progress, of a sort. The original rear axle is going back together (slowly), and there is now a lift installed in the shop, which will make doing the rear axle changeover a great deal easier. Plan is to take out the present axle, the 3.27 unit, and move the rear brakes and some other bits and pieces over to the new/old axle, the 3.92 unit. At that point, paint that unit and put it in the car. I am still trying to figure out how to drive the speedometer. If anyone has a source for the item that GGR posted a photo of, that would be very helpful.
It's ironic to me that one of the contemporaries of the 113 car, the Jaguar E-type, was also a lovely car somewhat undone by its transmission. (the original E-type had a non-synchro first gear, in a transmission described in the day as 'agricultural"- sturdy and crude) Jaguar upped their game in 1965 with a full-synchro box which is still very good by modern standards. And, like we are doing with 113 cars, one of the most popular conversions done while restoring E-types is a conversion to a five-speed transmission. The most popular one seems to be a Borg-Warner T5, and there is a whole kit to put one in E-types.
Bud's Benz has also had a kit for a five-speed installation into a 113 car. The photos I saw looked good, but it keeps the original ratios, plus an OD, which is not what I wanted to do. I wanted to get away from the stump-pulling first gear of the MB manual gearbox, and have closely-spaced ratios which would finish up in an OD fifth. I hope we will be there once this is all done.
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You should contact member Pagoden. He gave me the address of a supplier who will also build the cable. I lost the address but Pagoden will surely be able to help you.
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Thank you. I will email him through this forum.
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Does anyone have the length of the 2 rods that support the shifter? I need to fabricate something for the rods. If anyone has the driveshaft length for the front section using the BMW front flange and r=the Mercedes rear flange? Thanks in advance.
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More progress. The axle, trans and propeller shaft are all in. We had some difficulty with the emergency brake- the cable is NLA as a new part, we found one NOS stock one on eBay and were able to reuse one of the other ones. The technician doing the job was able to adapt the NOS cable which may not have been the exact right one but was usable.
With luck, the car will be road tested this week. (I may not be in town for it, but I'm sure I will hear about it) Full report to follow. I know I keep saying that, but it IS nearing completion.
We have not dealt with the speedometer drive situation yet. Can someone explain to me why if we connect the speedo to the transmission using a cable which has one VDO end and one Getrag end, the speedometer could be accurate whilst the odometer would not be? Seems to me they are both driven by the same cable. But what do I know..
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The odometer is driven by gears so there is a direct relation between the number of turns of the cable and what the odometer is showing. The speedo is driven magnetically by a wheel also connected to the cable. The faster the wheel turns, the higher the speed indicated on the dial. I guess calibration is made by modifying the distance between elements of this magnetic relation. So you can recalibrate the speedo to show the right speed, but your odometer will be off.
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i am reading about al these conversions to 5 speed getrag , wy not convert to a 6 speed getrag , they are much easier to find or is it not possible due to size
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if we could find one at a reasonable price ... with a removable bellhousing ... readily availabe parts and able to take the torque then a six speed would be a great solution but nothing ticks all the boxes better than the 5 speed 265.
The big problem is that these boxes and associated parts have become increasingly difficult to find and accordingly more expensive. when I originally purchased my box it was £250 so even with all the other parts needed it was a very affordable and excellent performance upgrade.
Considering the possible end of any availability of 265's at sensible prices I belive the best way forward would be to develop a kit based on the tremec 5 or 6 speed boxes.
these are truly magnificent manual boxes capable of handling insane amounts of torque and due to their high volume manufacture - very reasonably priced. im presently installing a tremec magnum rated to 700hp in a latest project car. cobrazone.com
Best regards Mark
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The Tremec Magnum is a great transmission but it is in another league when it comes to size and weight. One should ensure it clears the Pagoda's tunnel before considering it. Attached are a couple of pictures comparing the Magnum with the Getrag 265. Also a couple of picture of my current project.
Nice Cobra project you have there!
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I never said it would be easy. ;)
the length is not a real problem, plus the tremec accommodates alternative positions for the shifter.
the geometry is undoubtedly an issue and could be a deal breaker but if it could be done it would be the ultimate solution...
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Mark,
Just looked at your Cobra project. Beautiful job.
Having made a custom cast aluminum bellhousing before I think I would look at grafting a Mercedes(mid 70's 5 speed?) and a Tremec LS bell together before I would scratch build a new one. That way your only machining would be to mill the assembly into parallel. That being said if you made a completely new casting I would guess that modern software could size the plug up to account for shrinkage of the aluminum when cast and CAD machining would make machining the complex mating surface of the Tremec an easy task but I could only imagine what it would cost to develop the files.
"That will be 15,000USD for the first one and 1000USD for each one after that."
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Hi Gents,
Seeing that the Getrag 265 is getting scarse and more expensive by the day, is there perhaps a smaller Gertag that would be suitable for the 230 SL and 250 SL? Clearly the Pagodas dont really put out enough HP to warrant the capability of the 265, would a 240 or such not be suitable?
Regards
Chris
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The 265 has a removable bellhousing which makes it easy to fit to the original bellhousing from Mercedes. Having to make or modify a bellhousing makes it so much more complex.
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whitch one do we need now , the doglegg version , or the overdrive version , my gues is the dogleg version whit ratio 1:1 in 5th gear 265/5
please correct me if im wrong
many 265/5 ore sold as 262.0.510.00
the 265/6 can be easy found in germany for around 600 euro
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The 265 has a removable bellhousing which makes it easy to fit to the original bellhousing from Mercedes. Having to make or modify a bellhousing makes it so much more complex.
I have a direct hook up no adapter using a AMG belhousing.
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Hi Guyke,
No, I would prefer the overdrive version. I used to have an E Type with a dogleg and did not like it. Is the 265 the only one with a seperate bell?
600EU is a lot of money and a looong way to ship, if you are from the tip of Africa. As I mentioned, the early Pagodas dont really punch out a lot of power, therefor my question re smaller Getrag boxes.
Does the 265 fit directly to a Pagoda bell or is small modifications required?
Regards
Chris
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Mark makes a kit. The Getrag 265 requires what is essentially an adapter plate that is 17mm thick and a bushing for the pilot shaft where it fits into the end of the crankshaft. I started down that path myself but Mark did a better job with it so I bought his kit.
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i was asking what type of getrag because they say that there is a bad version somewere in these topic
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Hello Guyke,
There is no bad version as such of the Getrag 265. 8)
The Getrag 265/6 is the one with overdrive fifth (0.813) to go for if you want to reduce revs.
The Getrag 265/5 had got the dogleg 5th and a 1.0 ratio.
You could use that one as a nice "overdrive 5th" as well if you combine that gearbox with the 3,27 rear end. ;)
But that makes 2 conversions necessary for you: gearbox and rear end (axle).
I do not exacty know whether you can use the dogleg gearbox with the conversion kit from Mark as well, but I would guess so. But there's no shift ball available for the Pagoda with dogleg 265. :o
Love the 5-speed - go for it !
Achim
(1971 230 W114 4-spd auto)
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The 265 is certainly robust. I converted my 6.3 ltr Jensen from auto to manual and it copes with the power without problems (80 mph, 2000 revs in 5th gear)
Conversion of my auto 113 to Getrag 265 is progressing (slowly)
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Guyke,
The 265/6 is your best bet. The next closest option is the Tremec T5 which is also no longer available but were made in much larger numbers than the Getrag. They were also made in several different gearing applications for everything from Astons to Jeeps. My conversion used a base T-5 from a '93 Chevrolet S10 V6. The first gear is much better than the Mercedes G-72 and 2,3 & 4 match the G-72 and 5th is a .76 overdrive. With my 4.08 differential, I'm turning 76 mph at 3,000 RPM.
I gave my drawings and research to David and Brad at Bud's Benz who made several improvements and created a modified gearbox they now sell as a kit. (I have no financial interest in it) I believe the kit is under $5K USD installed. Don't know what the shipping price is.
Because of the length of the 5th gear tail shaft, the Buds conversion does not use a flex disc. This is a minor problem if you choose the wrong gear at low revs. My T-5 is also a bit noisier than the Getrag but our cars aren't quiet to begin with. I have a Getrag in my BMW E30 and I'm far more likely to miss a 3rd gear speed shift with that than my T-5.
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Conversion of my auto 113 to Getrag 265 is progressing (slowly)
Yes, Gordon,
But it can be done. 8)
My friend Heinrich did that, converted their 280 auto to 5-speed stick shift (Getrag).
One of the biggest challenges was to collect all the missing parts, especially the clutch pedal assembly, etc.
Not everything from the sedan (W108) can be used without change.
Please note:
Don't forget to re-balance the engine for the clutch's flywheel !
Perhaps not as mandatorily urgent as with an M127II, but also necessary here !
Good luck,
Achim
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so the chase is on for the 256/6 , i found 6 in germany jesterday from 400 euro to 1500 euro , some people dont know wat its worth i thing ,
wat kost the conversion kit from england i saw many prices coming along also in this topic , maybe that the person ho makes them could reply please , thanks
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Did they have a speedo drive on the tail? ( I doubt it at a price of 400 euro's) If you can get one with speedo drive it will save a lot of hassle later.
Mark Bull does the conversion kit I think. (Mkbull)
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jou just have to know were to look gordon , im an internet search junky who knows were to look
do jou have a picture from that speedo drive please ?
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Here goes with some photos of GM/Jaguar boxes. The red/coloured insert is the speedo drive.
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found a getrag 265 for 200 euro in germany 8) 8) 8) 8)
they stil can be found sheap
and found numerous getrag 265 for around 700 a 800 euro , those ho still need one pm me i will share the link to the seller ( in germany)
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The conversion kit is still available (£400 delivered) if anyone needs one just get in touch.
Regards
Mark
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Hi All, ended up taking a gamble on a 6 speed gearbox from Siegfried (german engineer) based in Poland, it is basically a BMW e90 box with fabricated bell housing and some very innovative adapter kit. It arrived from europe last week and we will be fitting in the in next month after xmas. The whole kit to convert my 4 speed 280 SL to a 6 speed delivered to by door in Sydney, Australia was around 7000 EURO which lot more than Marks option but will post some updates and start a seperate thread if anyone is interested?
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Yes please!
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YES!! Please do.
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Hi All, please find some pictures from the my 6 speed conversion still some interior work to do but wow .. acceleration is smooth and soooo much stronger. Will be testing out using GPS/Digital speed in the next few days. @ 110 km per hour it sits on around 2200 rpm and so gentle. Wife loves it.
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Hi PagodaMafia...
Please keep reporting on your 6-speed conversion and experience.
My Automatic is due for an overhaul (leaking fluid etc) and I am dancing around whether instead to do the conversion to the 6-speed transmission (which is supported for an additional ~1500 Euro).
Wife acceptance factor plays a big role here as well :-).
Robert
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We have now progressed to the point where we have the car running and driving. We were not sure what oil to put in the Getrag gearbox so we started with 85-90 gear oil. Big mistake. Transmission was nearly impossible to shift. Drained that out and put in Dexron- much better.
The flex coupling supplied with the kit lasted about one mile- literally. It tore apart immediately. We ended up having the driveshaft modified by an outfit in TX who welded a BMW front section onto the Mercedes driveshaft. That way, it can used a standard BMW flex coupling. All that has worked fine.
Latest problem: the speedo cable. I would like to just get a cable that will mate the Getrag gearbox, the 265/5, to the VDO speedometer in the 113 SL. We have the original cable out and have measured it for length, but we can't figure out which BMW speedo cable is the right one to go on the Getrag transmission. I ordered a cable from a 528e BMW but it doesn't seem to be the right end. My transmission is NOT the dog-leg transmission, it is the one with the OD fifth gear.
When the dust settles on this project, I will have a rebuildable MB rear axle set from a 4.5 sedan, with the 3.27 axle ratio, for sale. It is in Manchester, MD, which is near Westminster. It drives okay, it was in the car for years, but has an occasional clunk in it and should be gone through before use in a car. Again, this is NOT a drop-in item!! It will need some service work before it can be put in a car and forgotten about.
Any help on the speedo cable would be very much appreciated. Our plan is to get the speedo cable made up, and then count the turns on the cable and send the speedometer off to Palo Alto to get recalibrated. I could care less about the odo, at this point I just want to drive the car again.
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got mine from : http://www.speedycables.com/
mark
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Thank you. What did you specify to them in order to get the right cable ends and length? We can measure the length, but I don't know what end to ask for on the Getrag end. The instrument end would be a 113 Mercedes VDO, right?
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just contact them and order the same one earlier shipped to the netherlands , or recent to peter in finland.
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Thank you. I will call them. I emailed them but didn't hear back. Thanks for your help.
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I called Speedy Cable and they advised me that they make up thousands of cable and that unless they have more precise information about this cable, they can't make me one. I'm going to try them again Monday, but in the meantime, an appeal: if ANYONE has precise information about what ends go on this cable and how long it needs to be, could they PLEASE post it here or PM or email me with that information? The essential piece of information that I do not have is what end goes on the transmission end to connect to the Getrag 265 transmission. PLEASE help if you can. I am so close to having this project done at long last. Please help.
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jimbo see email speedy below
The cable we have supplied to Mark Turnbull is 1685mm long, our pt no
211650. Price is £25.50 plus p&c and VAT. Delivery 7-10 working days from
order. Await your instructions.
Regards
Mike Howes
DIRECTOR
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Thank you! I will call this fellow tomorrow. Very much appreciated.
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Called them and talked with Andy- the order is in, I hope- Mike is no longer with them, but they have the part number. It is for a RHD car, so should be adequately long for a LHD 280SL, what I have. Stay tuned. Full report to follow, for better or worse.
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STILL trying to order the speedo cable from Speedy. They DO have a part number, I have placed the order either two or three times, never got an acknowledgement, called them 3 or 4 times. Very frustrating. I can't see how they can stay in business like this.
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Called Speedy Cable (possibly the most ironic or imappropriate name for this company, who ought to be called Abbott & Costello Cables Ltd) and put the order in a FOURTH time, this time by phone. The lady with whom I spoke pretended we'd never talked before- entirely false as I clearly recall talking with her at least five times in the past. Anyway, I hope this gets the order in and that they don't (further) screw it up.
Maybe "Cables by Fawlty Towers"?
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It is sadly true that Speedy Cables' service has deteriorated somewhat over the years but if you keep on their case you will get what you need eventually.
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You're right. As a matter of fact, there was a hilarious episode where I called them, and asked for Tracey, whom I had spoken with, and asked her about the order, and she told me she had never spoken with me, ever. Pretty funny. However, they did finally make up the cable and send it to me, on the fourth order, and it seems to fit fine and will work. The cable, which is actually for a RHD car, is a bit longer than the one which came out of my car, which is LHD. This is not a problem.
On other news, another forum member sold me a set of leather seat covers in cognac that he had had sitting around for years. I picked up the seats yesterday and they look very good- they are a close match to the door panels and dash (we did only the seats) and I hope to have them back in the car this week. The floors and all look in good shape.
The technician doing the transmission transplant, who also rebuilt the rear axle, plans to have the axle out again to redo the pinion seal which leaks a bit. But we are (slowly) closing in on the completion of this project and then, with any luck, I will get to actually drive the car a bit.
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You can replace the pinion seal without taking the axle out, which will save you quite some labor.
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Right. I think he has to drop the driveshaft and maybe the carrier bearing. It's an old seal, maybe the original, and it weeps a bit.
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Another update, of sorts: fitted the reupholstered seats back into the 280SL. They look terrific and FEEL new, which is brilliant. Pinion seal work in process- he had to order a socket to get the nut off it, which supplier sent the wrong one, so back to the order book... The cable DOES fit, but we have not driven the car very much yet. My plan is to snug up everything and then drive the car and clock it with a GPS and figure out how far off the speedometer is- then send it to a VDO shop and have it corrected. Getting the odometer right would require changing the drive gear, I think, and at this point I just want the car running and driving.
I hope it turns out well. It has taken so long that I am worn out with all of it, and just want it done. No one's fault, it has just been a lengthy process.
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good to hear the cable fits; not to long afterall?
Did the tuning of the speedoo myself by using a gps markerpoint at 100km/h , now i find a very small deviation from speedo to gps in the lower range.
I should have used a lowerspeed markerpoint like 80 Km/h or 50miles/hour , so the deviation is in its best possible range.
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Right. The leaking pinion seal turned out to be pitting on the yoke shaft. There is a fix kit from Bud's Benz, but we elected to have a local machinist turn the shaft down a bit and fit a steel sleeve to it, to restore the original diameter. After that, it goes back in and (I hope) I get to drive it some. At that point we'll figure out the speedometer and send the unit in to VDO for a rebuild and calibration. The cable appears to fit fine- probably an inch or so longer than needed but that is far better than the alternative.
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Anyone following that also has a pitted yoke there is a product called a speedy sleeve that is a very thin stainless sleeve that is installed over the worn surface of the yoke. No machining needed.
http://www.skf.com/binary/26-128020/11337_2-EN-SKF-Speedi-Sleeve.pdf
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That is what I had done. They turned the yoke a bit and fitted the sleeve. Works a treat, as they say. Hoping to get more seat time in the car in the next few days- I was away at a concours with another car for the weekend. Still left to do- fix the rattle in the exhaust system, and drive it more to complete any sorting out.
I am interested to know what other owners who have Getrag transmissions are using for gearbox lube. I posted that we started with 85-90 and the box was unshiftable, pretty much. Drained that out as best we could and put in Dexron. Much better. What is everyone else running? I am thinking about synthetic Dexron, also- has anyone tried that?
Speedo seems to work fine, have to check with GPS. I am sending a bunch of Mercedes instruments to PAS this winter- the speedo from my 3.5, the 3.5 clock, for a conversion, and I think the tach from the 280SL- jumps around. That is, if none of these are caused by the cables.
I'm pretty sure the clock has nothing to do with cables. :)
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Dexron is indeed the correct oil.
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Metric Mechanic recommends ATF for the Getrag 265 they rebuild. I also like redline MTL. You can blend it with MT90 or run full MT 90 if your transmission is noisy.
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Dexron is ATF!
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Progress report, of a sort. I went up to Manchester today, dropped off my 500E, and drove the 280SL home. Overall, the engine seems to like these ratios. Shifting is still rather tight and requires more effort than I would expect from a used gearbox which presumably was already broken in. There is a bit more noise from the Getrag than the original gearbox made, but not excessive. We have two rattles: the first, a low-pitched bang on bumps, seems to be from the exhaust system hitting a bolt which I think is part of the transmission mount. We will probably have to either put high-temp padding between them, or dimple the exhaust system in that area to give it more room.
The second, which is far more annoying, is a higher-pitched rattling which seems to come from the area of the glovebox. It is most noticeable at highway speed in either 4th or 5th. Not sure what that is. I really hope it isn't the speedo cable- getting the cable in the first place was a huge pain, If I had to replace it I would not be happy.
I'm going to drive the car for a few more days and see what else turns up. Overall, it isn't perfect, but it's better than what came out of the car, and I hope that we can sort out the rattles and complete things.
At 3000 revs the speedo indicated 60mph, which is handy since I'm terrible at math, but I suspect she's going faster. I'm going to check it tomorrow with a GPS navigator and see how close we are. We just connected the speedo to the trans with a cable and no adapter, so it would be too much to hope for that it would be accurate. Plan is to get an idea of the error and this winter send the unit to Palo Alto and get it recalibrated.
Stay tuned!!! GGR, if you want to come out here and drive the car, I'd be delighted to show it to you!! the impression of an expert would be most welcome.
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To MK BULL
I am fitting a Getrag 265/6 in my 1953 300 Adenauer and would like to use your bell housing adapter.
I can be reached on 0208 968 6333.
Michael Irving
P.s. I have a lot of M130 engine and transmission parts plus 113 doors,bonnets and boot lid if,they are of
any use to you.
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Here's a shout out of thanks to GGR who was kind enough to come out and spend quite a bit of time driving my 280SL to give me his (much more experienced than mine) impressions on how it runs and drives. Also got to drive HIS 280SL which looks very nice indeed, having had a paint job since I saw it years ago. Goes like a 6.3, really- LOTS of torque, lots of fun.
Still has a few aches and pains but overall mine runs out nicely. We have a few things to see to, and I am going to get my DS over to him for some attention to a few odds and ends....
Brilliant day for driving old Mercedes around here- sunny and warm and surely we won't have a lot of days like this left in the year. GG thank you again.
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You're welcome Jim. Your Getrag 5 speed works beautifully.
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the 5 gear getrag transmission is optimal. Have one more on reserve, you never know.... :)
Peter
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That looks like a brand-new transmission. Are there any more where it came from??
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These guys have been around a very long time.
http://metricmechanic.com/ultimate-transmission-rebuilds/
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http://www.gmt-bauer.de
Ask for Richard.
Peter
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Hi all. Ive read this long and fascinating thread on the Gertrag 5 speed conversion with great interest, as I am seriously thinking of making the switch with my early 280SL automatic. My feeling from your many informative posts is that the conversion is both practicable and worthwhile. My previous Pagoda was a 4 speed manual 230SL and, quite frankly, I didn't think much of that gearbox or the ratios inside it. While the automatic is a more pleasant beast to use, the ratios are similarly hopeless, especially with the 3.92 final drive. My thought is that I would like to convert my car to a 5 speed manual, with a 3.46 final drive and my preliminary questions for those of you who have been down this track, are as follows;
1. Where can I obtain a new Gertrag 265
2. Is the G265 the best option because it has a removable bell housing?
3. If so, can I use my auto box bell housing in the conversion?
4. Is 5th gear an overdrive in these boxes?
5. Is it possible to also purchase a W113 conversion kit for the Gertrag ie gear lever, boot, linkages, prop shaft, etc, that make it simple to install?
6. almost all 108 series cars sold in Australia were automatics, so second hand manual pedal clusters are probably unobtainable now. Can anyone suggest alternatives that might fit the Pagoda?
7. Can anyone sell me a good used 3.46 diff?
Thank you all for your very informative posts on this subject.
Pip1947
Sydney
January 1968 280SL auto
Tunis beige metallic/dark brown
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Philip,
I fitted a Getrag into my ’69 280SL some years ago. I obtained the conversion kit from the UK Mark Bull, a member here on this site. My car had a 4 speed gearbox in it at the time. I purchased a BMW M5 Getrag gearbox from a motor wreckers here in Melbourne. They are around but you need to search for them. You will also need to have a new drive shaft made to fit the unit.
The bell housing of the Getrag unit is used, not the MB one you have. The Getrag will also come with the gear lever to use, a MB rubber boot is used for the interior fit. You will have to source a pedal cluster and associated linkage gear, probably from the USA if it is suitable, something you will need to do some more research on.
One of the biggest expenses was replacing the electronic speedo drive for a manual worm drive, they are available but very pricy from BMW so try to find a gear box with a manual worm drive or find a second hand unit.
Some advice of rear axle ratios. I had an original 4.08 axle initially in the car. I changed that to a 3.46? I think it was and it was great with the 4 speed gearbox. When I then fitted the Getrag box in, the 5th gear ratio was a big problem and was so much of an overdrive that it had next to no pulling power and I should have changed the axle ratio back to the 4.08 and it would have been fine, so I am saying that install the gearbox, you don't need to change the rear axle as well.
Hope that answers some of your questions.
Garry
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Thanks Garry
That is really useful information for me. It is a long term project, in the sense that I plan to pull all the bits together while my auto box continues to function so beautifully (fingers crossed). If I can achieve better driveability and quieter cruising without the necessity of a diff change, that would be my preference, so your experience makes it a 'no brainer'. Perhaps I can 'have my cake and eat it' by simply installing the Getrag 265. I will commence the search for a suitable unit in the new year.. I hope first gear is a tad higher than mine! I will also ask Mark about his conversion kit. As for the other bits, maybe Buds can assist, so I'll enquire there. They are very helpful people. I suspect the pedal cluster will be the most difficult item to source.
Cheers and thanks again
Philip
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Hello Philip,
Quite a challenging conversion you are planning - but it is possible.
As to your questions:
1. Where can I obtain a new Gertrag 265
You can't. Only NOS or used units available and get it overhauled. They don't make 'em anymore... ;)
2. Is the G265 the best option because it has a removable bell housing?
In my personal view, yes. Others have used the Tremec T5 which appears to me to be larger and personally I do not like the too long overdrive 5th there.
3. If so, can I use my auto box bell housing in the conversion?
Nope, you have to get a stick-shift bell housing from our cars. :o A donor piece. One from a W111 or W108 donor car would be fine.
4. Is 5th gear an overdrive in these boxes?
Yes, of course, that's why we are doing these conversions here. ;) :D ;D The 5th has got a 0.813 ratio; from the Getrag-Opel world there is also a 0.87 ratio available. :)
5. Is it possible to also purchase a W113 conversion kit for the Gertrag ie gear lever, boot, linkages, prop shaft, etc, that make it simple to install?
Yes it is, you need to. ;D Otherwise you cannot mate the Getrag to the bell housing and so on. Mark MK Bull sells these kits and there are other vendors too. You need to find a few additional parts though. BMW rubber mounts or the front half of the BMW propeller shaft, etc.
6. almost all 108 series cars sold in Australia were automatics, so second hand manual pedal clusters are probably unobtainable now. Can anyone suggest alternatives that might fit the Pagoda?
No, not really. Try to find a pedal set of a parted out Pagoda, that would be the best fit. Or a clutch pedal from a sedan. But there is some conversion necessary then.
7. Can anyone sell me a good used 3.46 diff?
I wouldn't recommend going that route. Either 5-speed with an overdrive 5th (which the Getrag 265/6 actually is, see above) or the 3.46. If 3.46, you need to find a complete rear axle or diff. Not (more) easy to come by .... :o
Both together (5th gear overdrive) and 3.46 diff will give you a too low engine rev number in 5th gear and the engine wouldn't pull strong enough anymore.
Only recommendable if you live in non-mountain areas. ;) :D
Remember please, our cars have got old-fashioned short-stroke engines that do not have much torque at lower revs - by far not comparable with modern Diesels .... ;)
8. What else?
Well, if you plan to convert an Automatic to stick-shift 5-speed you'll need more !
You need another rear flywheel for your engine, a (new) clutch assembly, clutch master and slave cylinders (also new), hoses, lines and reservoir for those, the clutch pedal, gear lever assembly from a stick shift etc.
Most important is that your crankshaft needs to be re-balanced with the new flywheel.
Some say this can be done on the M130 engine without pulling the crank but on the long run, the better result will be the balancing with the separately removed crank and flywheels.
All in all it can be done but it is quite a challenge to convert an Automatic to stick shift. My friend Heinrich did this on this 280 but he is also a technical engineer and not afraid of the most tricky challenges anyway. ;) :D ;D
Much easier for you would be to leave the auto box in place and go for a 3.46 rear end.
This will give you roughly 3000 rpms at 100 km/h or 62 mph.
Good luck & keep us updated
Achim
(with conversion from 4-speed to Getrag)
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Phillip,
As you can see there is quite a bit of work to be done. Another alternative is to fit a 4 speed manual gearbox together with the lower axle assembly. I have a 4 speed gear box that was left over from my 280sl getrag conversion some years ago. It was in good condition when I took it out and it has been sitting in a box ever since if that is al alternative route you go.
Garry
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An item of interest to those of us putting 5-speed Getrags in our cars: whilst shopping for parts for my E-type Jaguar, I found (quite by accident) a Getrag shift knob sold by SNG Barratt in the USA (they are in New England) which shows the shift pattern for the Getrag gear box. Black, with white legend and numbers on it. I've ordered one for my 280SL. I'll post about it when I get it, but if it can be adapted to the 280SL shift lever, I will be delighted. There is no source for these, other than a member of this forum who evidently makes a kit to put the transmission in, and will only sell the knob as part of a kit, or something like that.
This knob was about sixty dollars. I'll post follow up once I have it. I think their part number is 23007G, but you should be able to find it on their web site , which I think is sngbarratt.com. They are a well-known Jaguar supply house.
As to the kit that Mark supplies- we had to make quite a bit of it over again. The coupling he sent tore apart in the first mile. I think the adapter itself was okay. We did not use his method of connecting the shifting linkage- we ended up making parts ourselves to make it all work.
I agree that the advantage of using the Getrag 265 box- not the one with the 1:1 fifth but the more common one with the OD fifth- is that you don't have to change the rear axle ratio. My car had had a 3.23 axle put in, by me, to address the problem we are all trying to fix- the too-steep rear axle ratio of 3.92 or 4.08. That helped, in top gear on the highway. It did not help the original transmission ratios, which are too widely spaced and don't suit the engine. When we installed the Getrag gearbox, we put the original rear axle back in the car. I was lucky it had not been thrown away.
Bud's Benz in Georgia, USA, have a complete kit for changing the car over to a five-speed. If it is as good as everything else they sell, it will be fine. It was not available when we started the project on my car. I believe they use a BW T-5, but I am not certain. Details are on their web site.
Finally, I had a cable made up to connect the Getrag gearbox to the VDO speedometer. I will have the speedo calibrated this spring to agree with the actual speed. Note that the odometer will still be wrong. One of our members, Gael, found a ratio-matching small gearbox adapter to install in his 280SL- I don't know where he got it, but it corrected both the speedo and odo.
My car drives much better with the five-speed. If you are not scared of the work and cost involved, putting a modern transmission in a 113 car makes it much more enjoyable to drive. It took us a long time to get it done, but I don't regret it at all.
PS: ZF actually has done a limited run of the five-speed gearboxes that were originally fitted to 113 cars. Basically that unit is the four-speed, with its wide ratios etc, and an overdrive fifth gear. Not worth the high cost of the unit, when better and cheaper alternatives are easily available.
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Finally, we have developed the electronic speedo drive. This device replaces the speedo cable and get’s a speed signal from a hall sensor we mount on the propshaft. It is fully calibrated according to tyre size and diff ratio.
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Guy's,
I have bought MKBulls conversion but I also intend to use some individual parts from the one sold on W113.eu.
They have a ready fabricated shift linkage for example. They also have an alternative for the two rods connecting the shift plate to the gearbox which mean you don't have to saw off the lugs on the gearbox.
Regards
Peter