Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Research & Development => Topic started by: wbain on July 29, 2008, 02:52:11
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Has anyone done one or heard or one being done?
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Someone did speak about this as a work in progress, but we never heard anything more. There have been other conversions spoken of in the past year, with Toyota? transmissions as well.
The general consensus seems to be if reducing cruising revs is your goal an easier task is rear axle conversion.
Plenty of discussions on both trans and axle topics here.
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I have been looking for some months trying to get a 5 speed transmission for my car and one of the alternatives offered was the use of a Toyota Celica 5 speed that apparently a company in Sydney did for an Australian Pagoda with some minor modifications and an adapter plate.
As Michael said, the easiest way to reduce the revs if that is what you want to do is to change over the axle. In the US you are lucky that there is the 3.27 diff available from the US 280SE. I am in the process of aquiring a 3.49 to replace my 4.08 axle as an interim fix until I find a ZF gear box to match my Data Card.
I thought long and hard about fitting an alternative makers gear box but in the long run believed that it is much better to maintain MB than a mishmash of other manufacturers parts on the car.
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There is a german workshop offering a brand new home made 5 speed trans...looks good, but price is unknown (presumably outrageous?)http://www.pagoden-center.de
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Philippe, Warren, Garry,
Joachim Stickel, the owner of Pagoden-Center and one of the top addresses for W113s in Deutschland, uses one of the later style W107/W123(and so on) Getrag boxes that he converts in a way to fit into the 113 tunnel and to the original engine(s).
The shift pattern is different from the original ZF 5-speed with the rear next to the 1st (like on 4-speeds) and not next to the 4th (like on genuine ZFs) :oops: .
The price is outrageous to me, somewhere around €uro 10'000. You can easily transform with a currency calculator how much that in US-$$ is.
:(
Achim
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Achim, I have a similar Getrag transmission on my car with the same shift pattern as you described.
http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/hauser/200482522549_Getrag%20%205speed%20knob.jpg
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I got a price from Pagoden-Center and indeed it was E10,000. Nearly $16000 and they would want $1000 to ship. A lot of money in anyones terms for a non standard item. My feeling was that they were not really interested nor in the market to sell them.
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The beauty of the Getrag is that parts are abundant whereas the ZF5 you're not so lucky.
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I agree on parts, I have just been told of a local here who has just been quoted nearly $7500 to have four of the five gears re-made due to the failure of the case hardening and that does not include labor to do the strip down and rebuild. I suspect it would cost a lot more elsewhere.
However, a starting price of $16K???? I guess you know what you are getting, A bloody expensive but first rate Getrag gearbox.
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Gary, I consider myself lucky that I had this transmission in the car when I purchased it. BTW it's been in there since 1980 and still going strong.
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The reason for swaping to a five speed is not just for lower final drive revs, but because the driving experience is more to my liking. The four speed is okay, but first is way too low, and by today's standards the shift itself leave a lot to be desired.
To work in our car without major modifications, the transmission must be narrow, be a top shifter, and have an input shaft long enough to allow for an adapter plate between the box and the Pagdoda bell housing. There are only two candidates that I have found likely so far. The Getrag 265 like in Fernando's and the T-5 which has been done by a shop in California.
There are three versions of the G 265 and only one is acceptable. It was in the BMW 5 and 7 series cars of the early 80's. By the mid 80's they had gone to electric speedos. In the US, they are hard to find because almost all of those cars sold here were automatics.
If you are in the UK, where the Getrag boxes might not be so rare, there is a fellow in England who has done the swap once and is threatening to make kit.
The Borg-Warner T-5 comes two versions, in four different ratios sets, with different shifters and tail shafts. It was manufacured by the millions, and is still available new from Tremec. Any tranny shop anywhere will likely be able to get parts for decades. I'm getting close to working out all the details and I'll be back when I have hardware to play with.
If you can't wait, I welcome those interested to contact me off-line.
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Here's a link for sales and service of the Getrag transmissions.
http://www.metricmechanic.com/index.html
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While Raymond is correct in that there are two T5's, it is probably more accurate to say two basic T5's--world class and non world class. From what I've read there are more than 200 assemblies.
The tranny was so used in so many different vehicles by many manufacturers and manufactured for something like 20 years; do a search and read the info you find and you'll see things that Ford specified, for example, such as different gear material. Ford is only one of the many manufacturers who used it in one of many more car lines. It was used in AMC, Ford, GM, Nissan, Jeep; in many cases, more than one product line per manufacturer. Yes, they made a lot of them.
There are also different gear ratios available so if you are buying one just ensure you know what you are getting. They are not all alike. Plenty of websites devoted to identifying the T5's and plenty of parts available.
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There was a posting by Pagodino in April that discussed the items needed for the conversion as follows
pagodino Italy
Posted - 10 Apr 2008 : 08:13:08
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If you want to make a 5 Speed transforametion I would suggest this:
- Getrag 265 Box-BMW E9 5-6-7-series ´80
- Adapterplate (i finished all ready the form, I can make others if you want- Watercuted 20mm steel- 4 x 2 holesin 10 mm (M10)
- Speedo-drive adapter (about 120 Euros)
- W111 fintail -kardan-to cut
- 2 metal adaptation-plates for teh 2 BMW Bushings
- Pilot-guide in the flywheel to reduce diameters.
- Simple 2 stainless steel guides for the gear shift-lever
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Why not go with a 327 rear end with a Torsen anti slip . my friend did this in his Corbra -R and the handlining improved in the tight s turn because the torsen is designed to give power to the rear wheel that is slipping sort of a almost four wheel traction and cheap!!
Bob Geco
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I am about to fit a 3.46 coming off another 280SE next week as an intrim until I find a ZF some time in the (distant)future and keeping my old 4.08 axle until then. We did'nt get the 3.27 here in Oz so 3.46 was the best I could do.
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I am looking to borrow or buy a bell housing. I have a transmission shop that builds street rods that will work with me. If we can get a bell housing and a T-5 on the bench, we can perfect an adapter plate. When we get the pattern worked out, we can machine as many as we want.
I plan to document the entire process and, with luck, present the entire story at Blacklick next July.
So, anybody out there got a bell housing I can borrow? I'll pay shipping both ways. Or, if you have one that is damaged but still good at the transmission mounting surface, I'll take that.
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Ray, I've the plate that fits between the block and the tranny bell housing-about an inch thick.
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Are you guys planning to fit the original driveshaft?? As i dont really think this is going to fit. The getrag box is longer than the stock gearbox. Additionally the getrag box has a slightly different flange which will not mate to the pagoda driveshaft.
My adapter plate is 20 mm wide and is fitted inbetween gearbox and the bell housing. However the exact thickness becomes slightly irrelevant when the driveshaft (bmw) needs to be changed anyways.
I have the gearbox mounted, project has been delayed due to house move but will pick up again shortly. Still need to do the linkage, driveshaft.
User ejm is the man you need to contact (although there may be others) if you are serious about doing this conversion; he's london based. He also has a few correct rebuilt 265 boxes with mech speedo and adapter plates and has been a ton of help on my project.
It probably easier to go from 4 to five speed but still possible if you have a auto.
Good Luck
K
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If anyone is really doing this and needs a custom or modified drive shaft, these guys will probably help:
http://www.driveshafts.com/pages/mercedes.html