Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mark280SL on July 23, 2008, 17:39:53
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While searching on things in the forums I wanted to learn more about I have come across references on more than one occasion that our car's are "hand made" or "mostly hand built".
When I do searches to try and find out more about exactly what was hand made/built I'm not finding much of substance.
To those of you who may have verifiable knowledge of what was hand "built/made" or the details of the overall manufacturing process I'm sure it would be very interesting to hear about for many of us. I had assumed these cars (especially by the late sixties) were built on the assembly line production technique. Is that not so? ......And yes I assume the headlight notches were done by hand, but that is a relatively small detail all things considered.... what else?
Anyone know the real story and how much of the car was really "hand made" ?
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I think daily factory production output figures would be a good indicator of how much of a car is "hand-built". I don't know what 113 figures are but I know that the 111 figures were ubsurdly low. Something like 10-14 cars a day (or about 2000 to 3000/year). Those would have to be mostly "hand-built".
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From what I've read, from a visit and tour of the factory in 1964, by examining the work on the car, (and maybe a little wishful thinking,) I believe much of the final "details" were hand done.
Seat Covers were produced on a machine but the final fitting and stapling was hand done; the aluminum parts (doors, hood, trunk lid) were machine stamped oversize with final fitting by hand ending with hand grinding; the wood trim was finished, polished, and fitted by hand.
I watched seats being installed by a "man" who fitted and tightened each into place. I believe the inside trim was final-trimmed and hand fitted into place.
Of course, men were swarming all over the cars as they moved slowly down the line, guiding the engine in, attaching the hoses, electrical, fitting the windshield. Not sure if this is considered "hand made" or just that they didn't have machines to all the steps.
There is still some 'hand work' done on today's cars but it's mostly smoothing out the work done by the welding robots or the paint machine.
Richard M, NYC
Highest 113 production was 1969, about 8,000 cars or 21 per day. Other model cars were rolling along the factory line at the same time but still few enough to do a lot of hand work.
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Are you saying you were in a Mercedes factory watching W113's being built on the line in 1964? How did you happen to be there?
quote:
Originally posted by 280SL71
From what I've read, from a visit and tour of the factory in 1964, by examining the work on the car, (and maybe a little wishful thinking,) I believe much of the final "details" were hand done.
Seat Covers were produced on a machine but the final fitting and stapling was hand done; the aluminum parts (doors, hood, trunk lid) were machine stamped oversize with final fitting by hand ending with hand grinding; the wood trim was finished, polished, and fitted by hand.
I watched seats being installed by a "man" who fitted and tightened each into place. I believe the inside trim was final-trimmed and hand fitted into place.
Of course, men were swarming all over the cars as they moved slowly down the line, guiding the engine in, attaching the hoses, electrical, fitting the windshield. Not sure if this is considered "hand made" or just that they didn't have machines to all the steps.
There is still some 'hand work' done on today's cars but it's mostly smoothing out the work done by the welding robots or the paint machine.
Richard M, NYC
Highest 113 production was 1969, about 8,000 cars or 21 per day. Other model cars were rolling along the factory line at the same time but still few enough to do a lot of hand work.
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Richard has a glorious history and I don't doubt he was there. If you ever get a chance to meet him you may determine he was also present for the invention of the wheel, but he's still not convinced the earth is round.
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Robert:
In the mid 1960's, I was in Bavaria as a guest of the US Army. When the time came to return to the Land of the Big Apple, Uncle Sam (the US Government) told me I could ship a car home with no import duties and no transport charges...a good deal...so I bought a 1964 220SE which, I must add, was priced at the deep discount given to US Forces personnel and diplomats. The cost was about $8,000 in the US but only $4,000 to me.
When I arrived to pick up the car up at the factory near Stuttgart, a Mercedes gent wearing a long white shop coat gave me a guided tour of the assembly line. We walked from one end of the line to the other alongside various Mercedes being built that day including 230SL's.
The Line was a miracle of efficiency with the engines riding along a roof railing and the cars moving along a track on the floor. The specific engine designated for a car arrived overhead at the exact moment as the car reached the spot below. The engine moved down the rail and was slid right into the car.
At the end of the tour, I was escorted through a pair of doors to a small rotunda, and there, in the soft glow of several spot lights, was my newly built car, appearing like some royal carriage on exhibition.
The final touch was the sign they put in the rear windshield as I drove off. I was told to keep the speed under 50 mph for the first 200 miles. The sign was to explain to the Porches and other speedy cars why a Mercedes was not going 200km per hour on the Autobahn. The sign read "Breaking In" in English and German.
Richard M, NYC
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That is a great story Richard and I bet you are the rare if only person on this forum that can make that claim.
I bet you wished that it had been that 230SL that was yours at the end of the line now and that you could claim that you have owned it from new!
Enjoyed
Garry
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Wow Richard that must have been a great experience, not to mention the price and the free shipping. Opportunities and experiences like that don't come along often.
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark280SL
Wow Richard that must have been a great experience, not to mention the price the the free shipping. Opportunities and experiences like that don't come along often.
Well, the shipping was hardly "free"; it was courtesy of the U.S. Taxpayers. Hardly "free" either for Richard; they don't and didn't exactly pay high wages for military service. He earned it, even if duty in Bavaria was preferable to being an "adviser" in some jungle hot spot. The least the U.S. Army could do is make life a little more comfortable with shipping personal goods home (even if you bought them while on tour), and providing a discount to make up for the abysmal pay.
As we all need to remember, then and now, "Thank You for your service".
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Those of us who also served and did not get free shipping say "you're welcome" :)
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Originally posted by mdsalemi
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Originally posted by Mark280SL
Wow Richard that must have been a great experience, not to mention the price the the free shipping. Opportunities and experiences like that don't come along often.
Well, the shipping was hardly "free"; it was courtesy of the U.S. Taxpayers. Hardly "free" either for Richard; they don't and didn't exactly pay high wages for military service. He earned it, even if duty in Bavaria was preferable to being an "adviser" in some jungle hot spot. The least the U.S. Army could do is make life a little more comfortable with shipping personal goods home (even if you bought them while on tour), and providing a discount to make up for the abysmal pay.
As we all need to remember, then and now, "Thank You for your service".
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Mark,
Did you ask for free shipping? My aunt (U.S. Army) had her Benz shipped back with her personal goods. So did my brother in law (Air Force), though it was a Volvo! Criminy, he even shipped back a BT Cast Iron Telephone Booth! (abuse of the system and don't think I didn't tell him!) Of course they were officers...
Nonetheless thanks to you too, even if Uncle Sam didn't take care of you the way he did others. In general our treatment of all veterans is subject to some amount of criticism.
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I was living in Stuttgart in from 1967 - 1969 and visited the factory in Sindelfingen a few times where the 113 was being assembled. Much more of the work on the 113 was handwork than on the other vehicles but certainly not all although there was a lot of hand checking of the mechanical work. I do remember seeing a worker working on the leather inside the glove box and doing it by hand.
Bob
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Thanks Bob it's very interesting to hear the first hand accounts and learn more.
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Originally posted by Bob G MN
I was living in Stuttgart in from 1967 - 1969 and visited the factory in Sindelfingen a few times where the 113 was being assembled. Much more of the work on the 113 was handwork than on the other vehicles but certainly not all although there was a lot of hand checking of the mechanical work. I do remember seeing a worker working on the leather inside the glove box and doing it by hand.
Bob
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Yes by many accounts the W113 SL was the last of the breed other than the 280SE converible and coupes and 600 models to be almost hand assembled car. When the 350SL arrived in late 1971, more mechanized and American luxury had replaced the W113's welded-on nose and fenders with bolt on fenders and more luxury appointed options like built-in Air Conditioning and Mercedes-Benz first V8 SL. Though suspension systems got better, the hand made craftmanship was lost.
Early brochures show the soft tops being hand assembled and inspectors inspecting the body for seam welds to the nose and fit and finish of the aluminum doors, hood, and trunk.
Mercedes-Benz workforce also changed and it would take almost two decades to recover the luxury craftmanship of the Mercedes-Benz Marque.
Bob Geco
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I thought it was cool when I redid my glovebox to find #154 (had to edit this after I checked old MB-Tex number) had been there ... and when I redid my kickpanels, same number! I remember Ed Cave left his headlamp assembler/inspector's mark on his restoration.
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quote:
Originally posted by J. Huber
I thought it was cool when I redid my glovebox to find #117.../...
These are the last three digits of the body No (Aufbau No) Production Number (ProduktionsNo) that can be seen on the data card or the stamped metal plate located near the hood safety catch.
Also Stamped in to hood (bonnet), soft top compartment lid and H/T (if present) is the Body number (Aufbau No).
Marking various parts with crayon, stamping etc. was done to keep track and ensure that components ended up in the right car on the assembly line.
The Chassis No was assigned to each car at a later time, thus Body No and Production No were used.
Note: Edited to correpond with facts found out later (see above)
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Look at the pictures in the topic "Door Panel Repair" by John Lewenauer (thelews) and you will see the number "593" in crayon on the backside of the door card before he cut out the bad section and let in his repair section. Hopefully the rest of the trim and body components on that car are marked with the same "Aufbau" number.
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Hughes
Look at the pictures in the topic "Door Panel Repair" by John Lewenauer (thelews) and you will see the number "593" in crayon on the backside of the door card before he cut out the bad section and let in his repair section. Hopefully the rest of the trim and body components on that car are marked with the same "Aufbau" number.
Wait, I thought this number was the inspector number, not the chassis number ??
My body number ends with 1537, and various body parts are stamped with this: hood, trunk hinge, soft-top lid, hard top.
When I took apart my interior, I found the same number "79" scrawled on everything related to leather -- door panels, kinder seat halves, b-pillar leather-covered panels, glove-box, etc.
However, my wood pieces all had the number "476" scrawled underneath.
Supposedly they had different inspectors for different things (leather guru, wood guru, etc).
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In my case, the number on the panels is different from the various Aufbau numbers as well. I looked this morning and my crayon numbers are 154. Body numbers all end in 881.
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quote:
Originally posted by waqas
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Originally posted by Mike HughesHopefully the rest of the trim and body components on that car are marked with the same "Aufbau" number
Wait, I thought this number was the inspector number .../... Supposedly they had different inspectors for different things (leather guru, wood guru, etc)
Hmm, this is getting interesting...
They certainly had inspectors that marked various bolts, filling openings and such on the chassis with paint dots, red/blue/yellow. This was after final torquing of the bolts as well as after filling with oil etc.
The 190SL group have documented these dots/paint blotches well for the W121 type roadster (190SL), and I expect this esteemed W113 web group will in time do the same, as a unified effort, and put the result in our W113 technical manual.
Anyway, I suggest we should really dig deeper into the origin and meaning of these numbers behind body panels, glove box compartment etc.
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If we were really anal about this (but we're not, right??) we'd create an inspector database and then cross-list all our cars to find which inspectors worked on which cars.... then we could figure out the various shifts each inspector worked on, and then we could enter all this into our compendium of all things pagoda.... :D
Hey, its Friday and I'm bored, ok? :mrgreen:
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quote:
Originally posted by mbzse
... I expect this group will in time do the same, as a unified effort, and put the result in our W113 technical manual.
Anyway, I suggest we should really dig deeper into the origin and meaning of these numbers behind body panels, glove box compartment etc.
Oops, just saw your reply Hans! I actually meant my post as a joke! (no sarcasm or offence related to your reply).
Actually, now that I think of it, it would be great to document all the locations where these numbers exist, at the very least....
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More knowledge is a good thing! so it would definitely be interesting and a great idea to get a definitive answer on the handwritten numbers, however, whatever they may indicate (my non expert guess is an indication of just a standard inspection like many things built in manufacturing settings get) I don't think it is also an answer to the hand made question.
So when thinking back to the original question and having read the comments so far It sounds like we could say our cars definitely had more hand fitting or detailing then other manufactured cars of the time but to say they were "hand made" ? I'm not sure about that. I'm thinking older cars then ours like a high end Dusenburg which I understand were each custom-hand built from the frame up might qualify as hand made cars but hand fitting and detailing of some manufactured components of a car does not qualify something to be deemed "hand made" or does it?
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Originally posted by waqas
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Originally posted by mbzse
... I expect this group will in time do the same, as a unified effort, and put the result in our W113 technical manual.
Anyway, I suggest we should really dig deeper into the origin and meaning of these numbers behind body panels, glove box compartment etc.
Oops, just saw your reply Hans! I actually meant my post as a joke! (no sarcasm or offence related to your reply).
Actually, now that I think of it, it would be great to document all the locations where these numbers exist, at the very least....
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I was in the garage just now rummaging around and noticed one of my door panels. It looks like there is a signature of some sort in addition to the inspector number:
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) IMG_5552-small.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/Waqas/200881152032_IMG_5552-small.jpg)
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Another possible reason for the hand written crayon numbers on the back of the door cards could be that various uphostered interior trim pieces might have been made in "sets" with coverings all cut from the same roll of M-B Tex or matching hides. The components of these "sets" would be job numbered alike by the craftsmen (and women!) in the trim shop before being sent over to the final assembly line.
This "job numbering" was a fairly common practice back in the days of coachbuilt vehicles. When I took apart my 1934 M.G. L-1 Salonette back in the early 1980's every interior trim piece from door coverings to armrests to seats, and even the individual sections of leather coverings all had the same number crayoned on the reverse sides. Likewise all the wood window trim, dashboard and door caps. All the components had to be made up specifically for this body (good thing, too, as the driver's door was 3/4 inch longer than the passenger door!) and the job number was the same as the job number for the body itself, which had no relationship to the chassis number to which that body was eventually mated. (Very much like the "Aufbau" number has no relationship to the chassis number assigned to a Pagoda body shell as it entered final production.)
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quote:
Originally posted by waqas
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Hughes
.../...and you will see the number "593" in crayon on the backside of the door card before he cut out the bad section and let in his repair section. Hopefully the rest of the trim and body components on that car are marked with the same "Aufbau" number
Wait, I thought this number was the inspector number, not the chassis number ??
My body number ends with 1537, and various body parts are stamped with this: hood, trunk hinge, soft-top lid, hard top.
When I took apart my interior, I found the same number "79" scrawled on everything related to leather -- door panels, kinder seat halves, b-pillar leather-covered panels, glove-box, etc.
However, my wood pieces all had the number "476" scrawled underneath.
OK, the answer is in. :)
A well known Pagoda enthusiast, (Bernd Meyer-Brockel) ex. board of the German Club Pagode, states the following: The metal parts were stamped
with last digits of the Body number (Aufbau No).
The crayon marked parts like inner door skins, little transverse rear seat, glove box, underside of drivers and passenger seats were marked
with the last digits of the productionNumber (ProduktionsNo)
Both of these numbers are found on the data card for your vehicle, and are also stamped into the little metal plate by the hood (bonnet)safety catch (left side)
Note: Both of these numbers are disparate from the Chassis No of the vehicle in question. Odds may be that the last digits coincede to be the same in some rare cases, on some of our cars, though.
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Excellent detective work, Hans! I just verified that the production number on my data card matches the crayon numbers on my old pieces...
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quote:
Originally posted by mbzse
quote:
Originally posted by waqas
My body number ends with 1537, and various body parts are stamped with this: hood, trunk hinge, soft-top lid, hard top.
When I took apart my interior, I found the same number "79" scrawled on everything related to leather -- door panels, kinder seat halves, b-pillar leather-covered panels, glove-box, etc.
However, my wood pieces all had the number "476" scrawled underneath.
OK, the answer is in. :)
A well known Pagoda enthusiast, (Bernd Meyer-Brockel) ex. board of the German Club Pagode, states the following: The metal parts were stamped
with last digits of the Body number (Aufbau No).
The crayon marked parts like inner door skins, little transverse rear seat, glove box, underside of drivers and passenger seats were marked
with the last digits of the productionNumber (ProduktionsNo)
Both of these numbers are found on the data card for your vehicle, and are also stamped into the little metal plate by the hood (bonnet)safety catch (left side)
Note: Both of these numbers are disparate from the Chassis No of the vehicle in question. Odds may be that the last digits coincede to be the same in some rare cases, on some of our cars, though.
This is great information!
I should have simply looked at my datacard... indeed it shows the production number as 00079 ! (matches all the items you mentioned)
The next mystery is: why do the wood pieces have the number 476 on them? As far as I can tell, most (if not all) things are original in the car.
A final concern: if these are chalk, then presumably any wiping or cleaning would damage the marks. Is there anything that can be done to preserve the marks? (spray-on coating of some sort). Since I have no plans to replace the kinder seat or door cards, etc, I'd like to try and preserve the marks.
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And for those of you who need a visual -- or wonder what the heck we are talking about. Here is one of my numbers. A little hard to see on the body but its there...
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/J.%20Huber/20088316614_production.jpg)
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quote:
Originally posted by waqas
A final concern: if these are chalk, then presumably any wiping or cleaning would damage the marks. Is there anything that can be done to preserve the marks? (spray-on coating of some sort). Since I have no plans to replace the kinder seat or door cards, etc, I'd like to try and preserve the marks.
You might try going to an art supply store. Folks who work in pastels sometimes use some sort of spray-on fixative on completed works to reduce chalk migration and color blending.
Of course, one should consider that these chalk and crayon marks have survived for 40-odd years hidden away on the backsides of all the various marked components we've been discussing. So, absent a catastrophe, they should likely continue to survive just fine as they are if left undisturbed!
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I just re-upholstered my interior. I took the seats all the way down to the frames and springs. I ordered new horsehair cushions from MB and new leather from GAHH. As I was cleaning up the frames I noticed the initials/signature on both the backs and seats frames in white crayon. This had to have been put there by person building the frames at factory. I also had the production number written in yellow crayon on door panel backs as well as kinder seat back and seat, and the backside of the dash cushions/pads, on the aluminum form. But what was really interesting, was that also on all the leather parts (backs) they were stamped with the MB production number. So when I replaced the leathers, I had a rubber stamp made to the same size and font of the original stampings. I then stamped all my leather parts before installing. Did this to keep in the original look. Also when I repainted frames and cleaned springs, I made sure not to paint over those original crayon initials.
Bob
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One of the most interesting aspects of restoring older vehicles is that you often find hand-written codes and numbers, especially in the interiors. Not to dissappoint, but I found more of this type of documentation with older Ford and GM cars, and they are hardly what we would call, "hand-built". Older Mustangs, and especially older Corvettes had hand-written codes everywhere. They also had a lot of rubber stamped codes on parts showing inspection identification and dates. Interior specs and codes are consistantly found in all cars, that is, if the interiors are still original.
John
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Not to put a damper on the "hand-crafted" W113's business, but when I was in college taking a Quality class, we visited a local Ford asm plant (Milpitas, CA) in '68? or '70? every day for a week to "evaluate" the quality control conditions (or lack thereof) over each stage of assembly.
There were no "robots" .... everything was being put together "by hand"... guy's/gal's with pneumatic tools and pneumatic lifter's & chain hoists, etc. along the entire assembly line, along side and under it. Body seams were all hand leaded and ground / sanded ready for paint. Painting was by guy's in space-suits...no automated painting robots. At the end of the asm line, a swarm of "fix-it-uppers" (we called them) did the pre-quality inspection fixes... swarming over & under the car (car over a pit), each person with a specialty, "fixed" by adjustments all things ... body panel warps, paint blemishes were taken over to the side and "blended out" on the spot (in a kind of make-shift paint booth) with another person using a big hot air gun on wheels to "dry" the freshly painted blend. There were stacks of spare parts --- so that if a seat didn't work properly, they removed the malfunctioning seat asm, and replaced it on the spot. I got to "evaluate" the underbody "fix-it-upper" section one shift.. they mostly pushed and yanked the exhaust into position, replaced missing nuts, bolts, and screws on the chassis to suspension and similar attachments, looked for leaks at the brakeline-brake joints, etc... tightening the connectors or replacing the brakeline hose when that didn't work, etc.
When the "fix-it-uppers" were done, a lead "fix-it-upper" passed judgement and if acceptable, the car moved on to the quality control inspectors --- there were only a few of these for each car... they'ed start the engine, put it in reverse, back up 5 feet, then 1st and move the car forward while the quality inspectors went over the car, honking horns, turning lights on and off, exercising signal and brake lights. When it was "passed", they gunned the car into 2nd, screeching tires and ran the car outside to park it in the huge production lot for eventual loading onto rail cars.
So... in late '60's & early '70's Ford was "hand building" the cars... there were the usual chalk marks and indelible pen marks designating what options were supposed to go on each car.. upholstery type, seat types, engine type, tranny type, etc. ,and marks by asm's (indicator's of which assembler had done the work (this was so quality inspections could feed-back and track quality by assembly person), marks by quality control showing such-&-such had been inspected (and by whom), etc.
The only difference may be that there was no hand-crafting of upholstery... dashs were already sub-assembled by a vendor, as were seats with seat coverings. But, chrome trim was "hand" adjusted by the swarm of "fix-it-uppers", bumpers re-aligned by same (kicking them into position wasn't uncommon at all), small dents removed by hand on the spot (just like the "dentless painters" do today... they probably learned their skill at a car factory)... extraneous body scuffs were buffed out, etc.
Those were the days when Quality wasn't built into the cars, but rather was inspected into them at the end.
I've never bought an American car (other than my '65 Chevy C20 pickup) because of that experience.
I'm sure the German asm lines and assemblers were more conciencious --- my time and experience in Germany being my basis... and more-so at MB assembly plants than perhaps at others, since working on the asm lines for MB was the crem-de-la-crem assembly line job if you did your job "correctly". The differnce between the MB plants and GM's at the time may have simply been "pride of workmanship".
The real differentiating factor though wasn't in assembly, but in quality of engineering design for the parts that were being assembled.