Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: domimax on May 06, 2008, 10:25:31
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Greetings. A new newbie ;) . I have been coveting a 113 and realize I do not know what I do not know. And i do not like that feeling when plunking down cold cash. Thus, I found this forum.
I have owned many Mercedes. 111's 107's and even a 107026. Then i got bit bad by the vintage Alfa bug and still own a few of the older classics.
I will have many questions and do not wish to drive anyone crazy, but i do need a 113 mentor or two.
I live near Birmingham, Alabama. I got here via NYC, U of Florida and 20 years of good living in Atlanta. Guess that makes me a damn Yankee!
I still have not sorted out if its is gonna be a 250 or a 280. Which leads to my very first questions. What constitutes an "early" 250? What is the cut off point between and early and later 250? Where is an easy to use decoder of all the 113 numbers? Many thanks, David
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I found the decoder table :) .
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quote:
Originally posted by domimax
Greetings. A new newbie ;) . I have been coveting a 113 and realize I do not know what I do not know. And i do not like that feeling when plunking down cold cash. Thus, I found this forum.
I have owned many Mercedes. 111's 107's and even a 107026. Then i got bit bad by the vintage Alfa bug and still own a few of the older classics.
I will have many questions and do not wish to drive anyone crazy, but i do need a 113 mentor or two.
I live near Birmingham, Alabama. I got here via NYC, U of Florida and 20 years of good living in Atlanta. Guess that makes me a damn Yankee!
I still have not sorted out if its is gonna be a 250 or a 280. Which leads to my very first questions. What constitutes an "early" 250? What is the cut off point between and early and later 250? Where is an easy to use decoder of all the 113 numbers? Many thanks, David
The "early" 250sl is basicly a 230sl with a larger 2.5 litre engine.
The "later" a 280sl with a smaller 2.5 litre engine.
There are of course other technical changes, but the most obvious differences are interior trim items, dash coverings, door pannels,steering wheel, floor coverings, etc.
I'm riding 50Km. on my Unicycle 18 May, 2008 in the Tour de Cure.
http://main.diabetes.org/goto/al.lieffring
Please help if you can by sponsoring my ride.
Al Lieffring
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Take a look at this, not 100% accurate, but a good overview...
http://www.silverstarrestorations.com/113SL.htm
Early 250 would be up to about 1/2 way through the production of 5200 units.
John
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual
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Welcome! Have you completely ruled out a 230sl?
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quote:
Originally posted by al_lieffring
quote:
Originally posted by domimax
Greetings. A new newbie ;) . I have been coveting a 113 and realize I do not know what I do not know. And i do not like that feeling when plunking down cold cash. Thus, I found this forum.
I have owned many Mercedes. 111's 107's and even a 107026. Then i got bit bad by the vintage Alfa bug and still own a few of the older classics.
I will have many questions and do not wish to drive anyone crazy, but i do need a 113 mentor or two.
I live near Birmingham, Alabama. I got here via NYC, U of Florida and 20 years of good living in Atlanta. Guess that makes me a damn Yankee!
I still have not sorted out if its is gonna be a 250 or a 280. Which leads to my very first questions. What constitutes an "early" 250? What is the cut off point between and early and later 250? Where is an easy to use decoder of all the 113 numbers? Many thanks, David
The "early" 250sl is basicly a 230sl with a larger 2.5 litre engine.
The "later" a 280sl with a smaller 2.5 litre engine.
There are of course other technical changes, but the most obvious differences are interior trim items, dash coverings, door pannels,steering wheel, floor coverings, etc.
I'm riding 50Km. on my Unicycle 18 May, 2008 in the Tour de Cure.
http://main.diabetes.org/goto/al.lieffring
Please help if you can by sponsoring my ride.
Al Lieffring
The early 250 sl had two distiguishing changes. They added four wheel disk brakes and a seven main bearing engine versus the four. Note I am relatively new to the 113 world so anyone please correct me if the information is incorrect.
PS do you want to sell me a GSS rust free for $10,000 dollars? :D
Happy Benzing
Darryl, Hill
350 SL4.5 #60
1967 250sl "California"
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Without the data card is there a way to tell if the car is a 5 speed from the factory or converted to a 5 speed? Thanks
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quote:
Originally posted by domimax
Without the data card is there a way to tell if the car is a 5 speed from the factory or converted to a 5 speed? Thanks
You could encourage the seller to get a data card. It will help them sell the car, it is fast (they will fax it), and it is free!
Rodd
Pagoda Technical Manual
please contibute: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php
1966 230SL
2006 C230 Sport Sedan
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David,
You have owned enough classic cars to be an afficienado in my books. Having self restored a 280sl, not including engine rebuild, id be more than happy to share some friendly tips that ive aquired through the forum and otherwise. Send me a personal mail when you get the chance with your details..... Morso than other german car of the era rust is the number one long term expense.
Happy Motoring
Kay
Kay
Euro 280sl LHD 5 spd.
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"The early 250 sl had two distiguishing changes. They added four wheel disk brakes and a seven main bearing engine versus the four. Note I am relatively new to the 113 world so anyone please correct me if the information is incorrect."
The cuttoff for an early vs later 250SL is Chassis # 2979. After that Chassis number, beginning with Chassis number 2980, MB introduced the myriad of safety changes which toned down the interior reflective chrome, replaced knobs & air/heater controls with black "elastic" plastic material... basically the safety (many US DOT mandated for US imported models) changes that went into the 280SL --- less interior chrome and reflecting surfaces, matt surfaces instead of polished chrome, etc.
I'll add that the 250SL also included all the latest mechanical and engineering changes that had occurred over course of the 230SL's production period. The 280SL added a dual sensor brake fluid reservor, while the prior SL's thru the early 250SL's (thru approx. early May '67 production Chassis #'s) had no brake fluid sensor at all. Compared to the 280SL the early 250SL's has (among other things):
- all the interior chrome, handles, knobs, appointments that was on the 230SL,
- same exterior mirror (goose-neck) as the 230SL,
- no side marker lights/reflectors... same as on the 230SL,
- colored & lighted heater/air controls as in 230SL's,
- solid door side pockets, as in 230SL's,
- softtop front handles integrated with softtop (280SL's softtop handles are separate... in glovebox or trunk or where-ever stored in car),
- two part wheel covers (beauty ring + hubcap), as on the 230SL's,
- no bumper guards (as on the 230SL's)... 250SL's introduced bumper
guards on Chassis # 5041 (Nov 23, '67),
- squared off (less dash edge padding/rounding).
~20k 230SL's produced, ~5200 250SL's (~20 produced in '66, rest thru Nov'67), ~24k 280SL's.
I've heard (from OurSL.com's Roy Spencer) that only ~25% of US imported 280SL's were produced with 4 speed manual transmission, and as such command higher prices than the automatics.
280SL's are in higher demand than the 230SL's & 250SL's, hence sell for a higher price in general.
Matching numbers is something to watch out for when perusing possible purchase. Hood, trunk-lid, soft-tops stamped numbers should match the last digits of the VIN. Another tell-tale detail on all W113's is that at the headlights, inside edge, at fender edge of headlight opening, is a notch. If the notch is missing somebody had front end damage and repair didn't replicate the notch.
If you're interested in a purchase but not comfortable with your ability to identify whether car's been hodged-podged together or has had any significant body damage (rusted parts replacements or accidents), I can recommend a restorer you can contact who may be able to find or help you find a representative authentic version or restore one (to your desired level of authentic restoration). Contact PSMith (on this website) and he'll forward you my e-mail address &/or phone number. However, it sounds like you know your way around vintage cars in general, so I assume you know or will find a contact for a valid restorer or W113 expert in your neck of the woods.
Biggest problem to watch out for is rust damage (under various panels, or covered over by pristine appearance paint jobs).
Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
The 6% Club - Best of the Best
'02 SL500 Sport
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Thanks to all for the many replies. I will be in touch with a few of you over the weekend.
In the meanwhile, i have located a 280sl with a 5 speed. Am working on seeing if the owner has the data card. If i have the VIN# can i request the data card myself?
Must you have the data card to know if the car was born a factory a speed?
I have many pictures of this car. If anyone would be so kind to look them over and share your thought please email me and i will shoot them over to you. My address is: xxxxxxxxx.xxxx@gmail.com. David
[Edited to remove e-mail address - rwmastel.]
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quote:
Originally posted by domimax
If i have the VIN# can i request the data card myself?
No. The classic center will only send it to the owner.
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Must you have the data card to know if the car was born a factory 5 speed?
Yes, see option 230 here: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=DataCard.OptionCodes
Data card info in general: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=DataCard.DataCards
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My address is: xxxxxxxxx.xxxx@gmail.com.
I highly recommend you use the Private Message function of this forum to contact people. We can simply click on your username and send you a message. Anyone can steal your e-mail address if you post it here publicly then SPAM you or worse.
Rodd
Pagoda Technical Manual please contibute: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php
1966 230SL
2006 C230 Sport Sedan
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It seems that someone is always advertising a 280sl with a 5 speed transmission. It is my understanding that very few 113s came with the 5 speed. I would assume the car has been altered unless the data card confirms it is an original 5 speed.
Ted 1969 280sl w/ 4 speed
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Ted, you are indeed correct. The nice lady at MB Classics sentme the data card and the car was not born a 5 speed.
BTW, they were glad to provide the data card even though I told her i was not the owner. She was very nice.
So my search continues. I have a lot to learn.
I dashed through the country in my 69 Alfa Boat Tail Spider today. It was a blast. So at least i got my fix. :D
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quote:
Originally posted by domimax
Ted, you are indeed correct. The nice lady at MB Classics sentme the data card and the car was not born a 5 speed.
BTW, they were glad to provide the data card even though I told her i was not the owner. She was very nice.
So my search continues. I have a lot to learn.
I dashed through the country in my 69 Alfa Boat Tail Spider today. It was a blast. So at least i got my fix. :D
I still want a Guillieta sprint speciale . No rust of course.
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quote:
Originally posted by domimax
.... I will have many questions and do not wish to drive anyone crazy, but i do need a 113 mentor or two.... I live near Birmingham, Alabama.
Of course, we'll help you as much as we can on-line, but for face-to-face mentoring, check out our Frapper map on the home page and add yourself:
http://www.sl113.org/home.asp?
It shows a member in Starksville, MS and a few near Atlanta, GA. Too bad you missed the gathering in northern Florida in March!
http://index.php?topic=8026