Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: RGubbioli on January 28, 2008, 07:00:38
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Dear All,
This is my first actual post on the forum even though I have been member for a while now as its been a while since I've wanted a Pagoda. Fortunately I am now in a position to purchase and properly enjoy a nice convertible car. I will have a daily driver car, so the convertible is purely a weekend pleasure for me.
The two cars on my final shortlist are the W113 SL and the Porsche Boxster, very different beasts, I know, but what leaves them on the same footing for me is that I like the looks of both, both are convertibles, each has its own charm and they can cost roughly the same to buy. As a classic car enthusiast (but not having owned one apart from a 90's 911) I am more enthused about the Pagoda, even though I am leaning more towards the Boxster as a real world choice given its relative comfort, practicality and performance.
So, here I am asking for your help and opinions on the merits of the Pagoda purely on an ownership experience and usability factor. I intend to use the car for long trips, for example, go and visit friends and family on the weekend (500mile round trip), or go to the beach (300 mile rnd trip). What makes me worried of the Pagoda is that it would be a 'drag' on the highway with loads of wind noise, very hot in the summer and slow cruising speed (I have seen the threads on max speeds, so know it will do 100mph+, but think 75mph is a better crusing speed?). Is this fair?
Thanks for any inputs and views!
Riccardo
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One owns the Pagoda for its style, uniqueness and vintage appeal. They do drive nicely, for 40 year old cars. For modern day comfort, safety and reliability, the Boxter is a better choice. For uniqueness, nostalgia and a conversation piece, the Pagoda. This is not to say the Pagoda can't be reliable and hold its own in modern day traffic, you just need to be willing to make the investment of time and money to get it there.
John
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual
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You can lug more stuff in a Pagoda; the trunk is bigger as is the cockpit.
More depreciation, MPG and airbags in the porker
More "discretionary" service costs, worries about the oil pressure etc in the Pagoda
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Riccardo, having owned a Boxster and currently owing a Pagoda I feel you really need to decide exactly what feel you want from a second car, either the ease and pace of a modern or the character of owning a classic. To compare the two is not really fair to either.
If you are looking for spending most of your time on the motorway then the Pagoda has its limitations, I do not feel happy crusing much more than the legal limit, but up to that the Pagoda is fine. If you are looking for A road driving then I prefer the Pagoda. As for noise, presumably you will look to have the top down anyway, in which case the noise is immaterial.I dont think the UK ever gets hot enough to worry about the heat of the summer. The Boxster has an incredible luggage capacity for a convertable but in the Pagoda you will get all you require in for a weekend away. If you intend to use in all UK weathers then probably the Boxster is more suitable as long as you remember to dry off the brakes as they corrode very fast. From a servicing aspect the Boxtser can be very expensive, just make sure the rear main seal has been replaced if your going for a 3.2. With the Pagoda you can get classic car insurance and zero cost road tax. Just go out and have some fun and try each model and see which one ticks your boxes.
Rob Walker
1968 280SL papyrus white/green leather
Spain and Turkey
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Welcome Riccardo,
I totally agree with John.
one can write the Pros & Cons on both cars, however, I believe you're either a Pagoda person or Porsche person . [ Classic Porsches are another story ]
If you're aiming to get from A to B in a short time then go for the Porsche, however, if you're not in any hurry and you're looking forward to a great drive in style & want to drive a piece of heritage that appeals to the young & old folk ! You choose !
Having said all that, I have over taken a porsche or two, just for the fun of it, to tune up the engine!
'' I'm in no hurry'' Are you ?
kemal
280 SL Manual 69
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Riccardo,
I agree with all of the views below, and particulary with Rob's points. One element not yet discussed here is the extent to which you'd wish to work on your car. I have never owned a Porsche but a friend has a new 911 and having looked at the mechanics of it all I do not think it could be tackled without some seriously expensive tools/diagnostics (assuming the car is out of warranty). The Pagoda is a different story, naturally. With the tremendous knowledge that exists amongst the members of this forum, together with the incredible repository that is this website I find that working on the car is not too difficult. Not only does that reduce the costs of ownership, it also means that you get to do things properly; not all garages bother to do that these days. So, if you are prepared to tinker, perhaps the 113 is a better option. However, given your travel and driving requirements when combined with the truly crappy UK weather, perhaps the Porsche would be a better choice.
Let us know what you decide.
JH
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James, yes a very important point, if tinkering is your relaxation then the Porsche is a non starter unless your experienced in the marque or very brave.
Rob Walker
1968 280SL papyrus white/green leather
Spain and Turkey
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First of all, thank you all for the great feedback! At least one thing is for sure, Pagoda owners are a friendly and international bunch. :)
Although I am in the UK now, I will shortly be moving to Italy, more precisely on the shores of Lake Maggiore. As you can immagine, this is probably one of THE best locations for this type of car (IMHO). Generally mild weather, generally free flowing roads, and beautiful surroundings. The weekend trips would be to the Swiss Alps, the French riviera, East Italy (Veneto) and wherever else we think may be interesting. The occupants would be myself and the girlfriend.
I agree that its a totally personal choice, classic vs modern sports. In addition, the change in surroundings mean I don't really know how it will work out in practice - a new car brings many dreams and desires, but how many of them materialise (when I bought my 911 I was supposed to use it for long European trips, but in the end only went to Europe once in 2 years).
Although I am mechanically minded I probably wouldn't tinker much, especially as I don't have many tools, time or inclination. My idea of relaxing on the weekend is a nice drive followed by lunch or dinner and the occasional wash and wax. Having said that, I do love blasting down the autostrada at high speed, thus the attraction of the Boxster.
Other things that put me off the Boxster are the high maintenance costs (€10k new engines seems common) and the fact that its rather common and probably quite hard to resell in the future.
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Riccardo, you are very fortunate, I had 5 years in Liguria and adored every minute. If depreciation and maintenance costs are a concern then that would go very much against the Boxster, whereas buy wisely and you should not loose on a Pagoda. The Italian roads would be superb for a Pagoda and you can get plenty of cases of Barolo from the cantinas in the boot (trunk)!
Rob Walker
1968 280SL papyrus white/green leather
Spain and Turkey
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Hi Riccardo,
Which ever one you decide on do let us know.
What does your girlfriend think ?
Kemal
280 SL Manual 69
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Having owned a 3.2 from new a few years ago I can honestly say it was one of the most souless cars I have owned.The mistake I made was going to it after owning a few 911s(SC's & Carreras)which certainly are not short on the soul side.The M3 SMG cabrio I owned after it was a much better car than the Boxter but after several years of these types of car I worked out how much they were actualy costing me and decided to go the classic route.Despite having owned my pagoda for over 3 years I can't compare it to driving a Boxter because it is undergoing a rebuild and I have never driven it!If it comes to looks the Merc wins every time as I always thought that from the side profile the Boxter didn't know which way it was going.If I was in the market for another car now I think I would go for a 911 speedster(rare but very usable) or a PS auto art retro 911.This could be a late air cooled 911 with an the appearance of an early 70s RS carrera.Check their website
Ps you could always take a Pagoda to Mechatronik
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Kemal, the GF prefers the Pagoda, she is a classy lady ;)
DB280, Mechatroniks would be nice, a bit out of my price range though (the last I saw was £100k).
I guess one of the things that puts me off on the Pagoda is the buying process. I mean, its hard enough finding a decent 5yr old Boxster, never mind a 40yr old Pagoda! Plus, as I would like LHD then I will be looking on the continent and maybe even the US, so its hard to buy remotely....
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Riccardo,
You could always go the restoration route if your not in to much of a hurry.Buying a car you know needs a lot of work can be safer than buying a car that appears to be good on the surface.It won't be cheap if you get the work done for you but you can have the car built to your spec in the colour you want.Mine is painted a Mercedes colour but not a pagoda standard colour so is one of a kind.My trips to the garage to see progress( and pay the monthly bills) are always exciting and I am now counting down the days to my first drive which should be in April or May.
Garry
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Originally posted by RGubbioli
Kemal, the GF prefers the Pagoda, she is a classy lady ;)
SO WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR ? [ Valentines day soon !(' ;) ') ]
No regrets now !
(' :) ')
Kemal
280 SL manual 69
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If you are after a left-hooker, brush up on your german and nose there
There's a lot of VERY well looked after cars (SL Club Pagode is not a bad place to start)
Mechatronik have 2 on their site right now that are more "conventional"
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"Italy, more precisely on the shores of Lake Maggiore. As you can immagine, this is probably one of THE best locations for this type of car (IMHO). Generally mild weather, generally free flowing roads, and beautiful surroundings. The weekend trips would be to the Swiss Alps, the French riviera, East Italy (Veneto) and wherever else we think may be interesting. The occupants would be myself and the girlfriend."
With that description there is no choice possible - it has to be a Pagoda.
Here's how that could well work. Check around and buy one that is well-sorted out from a private individual enthusiast. Do your own regular maintenance and have the major stuff (something once every 3-5 years on average) done by a good expert garage. If the time would ever come to sell you will get your money back plus inflation - assuming there's gasoline available at the time, that is! In the meantime loads of people will come up to you to compliment you on your choice of vehicle - something that will probably rarely if ever happen in that other car you are contemplating!
Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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I vote for the SL. I just plain old don't like Porches. As for inclement weather I would say that I feel very comfy in my 230SL. In the hardest pouring rain, and freezing cold with just the ragtop up my girlfriend and I are very warm, dry and cozy. My car is just a great car in bad weather. I don't take it out in snow or ice just because of the salt on the roads. I do take it out in cold and rain. I'm sure many other owners are more sensitive to getting there cars wet. If your heater is in good condition and the car is in good shape I think the W113 is probably one of the better choices in vintage iron to get you there safe and comfortably. I just love the sound of the rain on the top and the great amount of heat from my heater in that wonderful cockpit. When I was about to purchase my car I asked a very knowledgeable friend if I should get my 230, or a Corvette. He said "Vettes are like a**holes, everybody has one". That was some good advice. When a Porche Boxster pulls up nobody notices, just another new car. Now my friends brand new 505HP Z06, that is hard to miss. He still misses the 230SL he sold me though. He however did have a Porche Boxster and didn't like it at all. He said it was hard to maintain and wasn't that fast.
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quote:
Originally posted by graphic66
I just plain old don't like Porches.
Have you driven a great running 356C? Not A or B. And I have 2 SLs. Brings a smile to my face every time I drive it.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2290/1938168688_f9f955ba66.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2197/1937458747_8cc83452c5.jpg)
John
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual
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Have you sat in both? I sold my MGB to get an SL because I figured it would be more spacious. It is wider and there is slighly more headroom.
But and a big BUT ...it is severly lacking in leg room.
The steering wheel is buried in my lap and I can't move the seat back far enough by several inches of seat travel. The MG had way more room between the legs and wheel and you could move the seat back around 4 more inches than the SL.
I recently rode in my friends Ghia. It also had way more room.
1967 230SL Havana Brown Auto with A/C
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I use a carrera as a daily driver and the pagoda only realy comes out for shows or that enjoyable sunny day top down drive. I love both cars for the individual role they play. I really enjoy looking at the pagoda and in a diffrent way enjoy admiring the carrera. there is no way i'd drive the pagoda as I drive the 911. I love to hit turns and wiggle the rear not so with the pagoda that I treat as a fine piece of art. Its all what you like. When it snows I use the explorer!
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Hello Riccardo,
Without stating the obvious, "Apples and Oranges", if you know what I mean. I sold my 2001 Boxster S a couple of years ago when we moved and my garage space shrunk. I loved that car. It brought a smile to my face. BUT, what did I keep? Take a look in my garage.
Giovanni Mancini
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) pagodas 08 010A.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/john.mancini/200812822469_pagodas%2008%20010A.jpg)
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since you asked
if you get a Porsche GET A REAL ONE like a aircooled 911 .
I would not drive a boxter even if you gave it to me . For the type of driving you say you will do I would go for a 89 911 turbo , my secound favorite car after the Pagoda.
2004 Volvo V70-R
1971 280sl
1962 VW bug
1971 Harley FLH
1962 gs160 vespa
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Thanks again for all the replies!
Seattle Jerry does raise a good point regarding size... I am 6ft5 (1.96m), all legs, and have no idea if I fit inside. I just about fit in the Boxster and don't fit in the SL R129, never mind the SLK. There aren't many W113s around, although this weekend I may try and go to a dealer to see for myself how I fit inside.
Erickmarciano, I already had a 'real' Porsche (1993 C2) so time for a change, also not a great fan of the Turbos or any 80's 911 for that matter.
Finally, I agree that Germany is probably the good place to look for them. I have seen on mobile.de that there are literally hundreds of them for sale. Does anyone have any experience with a reputable dealer that specialises in classic Mercedes (and doesn't have 'diamond encrusted' prices)?
Thanks again!
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I'm cheap! My friends say no, you are an opportunistic buyer. Be that as it may,let's look at the cost of owning a Pagoda: Let's begin with a car that is rust free and in decent condition. I'm doing all my own work (paranoid). I got "collector plates". No annual fees, permanent registration. I got "Classic car insurance" $120 for two cars. Installed 3.27 rear axle: Makes a wonderful hiway car. Love to fix little things: Installed a 09 cam and a new head. Car runs like a watch and I feel like a million bucks driving it. The A/C works. It always starts, even in this very cold weather we have now. Most times, when I stop somewhere, someone comments on "such a nice car". On my Mercedes Wagon that has never ever happened, even though it's by far the nicer car. But it's the vintage and "the looks": Same thing happens with my '69 Honda Trail. Especially old guys love these older models. I won't loose money on this car ever.
'69 280SL,Signal Red,Automatic,retired engineer, West-Seattle,WA (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/theengineer/2007118132030_SmallStar.gif)
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Riccardo...I don't think you will fit. My Dad had one when I was in middle school and about 5'8" tall. I fit then and it didn't occur to me that at 6'2" a Mercedes would be too small. Go find one to sit in.
1967 230SL Havana Brown Auto with A/C
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Riccardo, I am 6'1" and I find it more comfortable than the Boxster I had. I have seen some taller guys fit in, you may wish to change for a smaller steering wheel to give a bit more clearance, but I would be suprised if it were and issue. Where are you based in the UK we can probably recommend where to go to try a good one.
Rob Walker
1968 280SL papyrus white/green leather
Spain and Turkey
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I am a shade under 6'4" and whilst getting in and out of my volvo is easier, drving the 113 isn't a problem at all.
For Ze Engineer - the thing that bugs me somewhat about my 230SL living in Germany is the RPM I need to get the speed I need to travel safely on the autobahn. (You don't want to be driving too slowly when some around you are doing 140mph and up). I don't know what axle ratios my 230SL is, but I wondered if you'd made the change to decrese your RPM to achieve the same speed. If that is the case, what axle did you use/from what car? Is this a complex job? I know there's quite a bit on the site about axle ratios but wondered if you'd documented your findings and the job in a thread somewhere?
James
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The 'reliability' factor. The Pagoda sheetmetal surrounds basically the same engine, suspension, tranny, electrical, etc. systems that MB used on cars from the late 50's thru early 70's-220SE, 250SE, 280SE, SLs, etc. A million cars- plus or minus. A lot of those vehicles racked up 200,000 miles or more. Ball joints replaced king pins, solid state fuel mgmt replaced analog, and other things. A medium well maintained Pagoda has the 200,000 potential, also. But, rust is still the killer.
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R. Gubbioli,
Unfortunately, you will be clawing your way up Lago Maggiore on most days---no fun driving there; the traffic is terrible! We used to do that commute all the time from CH to the south end and back. On the other hand, a Porsche in the Alps would be fun, but no one would look at you. The Pagoda loves people, and they love it--it's like having a fascinating aging movie star on your arm. As for rust, just buy a tin of Waxoyl.
The question is, do you want to drive in style, or do you just want to drive a depreciating been-there, done-that piece of metal? If you really want a fun Porsche, take the last of the Boxer engines...
He Who Must Be Obeyed is well over 6 feet and fits in both smartly.
James, please get that 3.27 diff so we hear no more moaning on that front :D --makes all the difference in the world.
I completely agree with all the previous postings. To compare them is simply impossible.
Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder seat
Sarasota FL; Alsace France; Switzerland
Think of your Pagoda as a woman with a past...in a stable now including a 1992 964/911 Carrera with Tiptronic
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'France', I have been in the area every weekday (not weekends) since August last year so I kind of know the conditions. Agreed that the road from CH down to Verbania is very slow though, too many campervans, but I am hoping to avoid that (or use the Vespa to bypass the jams), especially at peak hours on the weekends.
Thanks to all for the feedback on height, I guess I need to try it out in person (this weekend, rob walker - I'm going to Classic Chrome and Chelsea Cars in London) as its very personal and depends on what one considers comfortable, their limbs, etc. One thing I can say though is that tall people have more difficulty in driving roadsters than do other people. Damn, half of them I don't even fit into! :(
As to the 'apples and oranges' factor, I tend to disagree. At the end of the day, they are both two 'fun' cars that people buy as a hobby (more the Pagoda than the Boxster, for sure). Yes, the style, the driving experience etc varies a lot but, if you add something like, say, a BMW 5 Series Touring into the equation, then its clear that Boxster and Pagoda are one type of choice (the apple) whereas the BMW would be totally another thing (the orange); at least, thats how I see it. I think its an amazing credit to the Pagoda that a car over 40 years old could still be considered a real choice against something that has only 10.
Overall, I have two main concerns about the Pagoda. One is the difficulty of buying a good, well maintained, one at a reasonable price and the second is using it for motorway trips (see jameshoward's point - glad to see there is a solution and am looking forward to understanding that better).
Finally, thanks once more for all your inputs, its great to see all the passion the Pagoda can build!
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AVOID Chelsea Cars and Classic Chrome, especially the former
Do a search on here and you'll realise that most of their metal is not as good as it might be...
Try Silver Arrows, in Putney. Expensive but Michael knows his cars and will have a good un. You may not buy it but it'll run well enough. You may want to call him in advance...
And I use mine on the motorway. Yep it's noisy but I've been to Stuttgart and back in a weekend very happily
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Originally posted by Tosh
AVOID Chelsea Cars and Classic Chrome, especially the former
I have to agree with Tosh,their cars look tired with no Wow factor as soon as you see them, except for michael at http://www.silverarrows.co.uk/ He does know his Mercs, I personally have had a chat with him a couple of times, well worth it.
He does ask a pretty penny for his cars, however,you can be assured they have been looked after, whether in the past or recently !
[ Let us know on how you get on .](' ;) ')
Kemal
280SL
LHD Manual 69
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I must say I am surprized by the comparisons,by some,of these two cars.
When you you want to go fast in a very precise way, the Porsche is the obvious choice. The sheer torque, acceleration, and handling of the Porsche, plus the new technology, bear no comparison to the SL experience. I have a 2007 CarreraS Cabrio,at the moment, and I would suggest that you drive both for some little distance if the difference is not immediately obvious.
Around town, the SL ( I have a 67 230SL) is fun. The bench style seat, the openess, the look, and the sound, all contribute to the kick of driving, but....... driving this older car,at speed, for long drives cannot compare to the experience of the Porsche. When you come to the first Pass and press on the "Go" pedal to pass slow traffic, reality will set in very quickly.
John
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Isn't it simply older nice car vs. new nice car?
The w113 will not meet all of your commuting needs easily; the newer car will meet your commuting needs and car driving needs more completely - except for the vintage style and feel. It's a trade off, a good dilemma to have.
1967 230SL
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Riccardo, I would echo Tosh's comments on the two garages you have chosen to visit, there has been no good reports from either. If you cannot get to see Michael at Silver Arrows then take a run up to Reading to Silchester Garage, the owner is a retired guy who started specialising in Pagodas due to the fact he loves them. He normally has a reasonable stock and has some real experts working for him.
There is also a great pub on the green in the village to make it a truly great day out!!!!!!
Rob Walker
1968 280SL papyrus white/green leather
Spain and Turkey
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Rob, Tosh and Kemal, thanks for the warning about the two dealers. I am only going there to check out the Pagodas for size and maybe for a drive but would probably not buy from them, especially in view of your advice. I have been in those dealers in the past and wasn't very impressed by their attitude. I remember that, years ago, when I was considering buying a Jag mk2 the guy selling it, who was very honest, said he had bought it from Classic Chrome a year or so before and it was now falling apart!
Upside2k, I think you've summarised my feelings very well! Its really a personal choice one makes based on useage, which I guess why the 'apples and oranges' comments. I find myself in the position of not actually knowing how I will really use the car so it adds to the complication/confusion. I will have a brand new diesel Volvo estate as my daily car, so that can be used for long trips etc. But then I fear the Pagoda will simply sit in the garage 9 times out of 10 and instead I want to use the 'nice' car as much as I can and enjoy it (unfortunately I cannot go to work with it...).
PS: There is a beautiful Havana Brown/cream LHD 230 at Silchester Garage... !
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Silchester's cars are on ebay. I think there are 4 there at present. They have been there for a while (in excess of several months). There are 230's and 280's.
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quote:
Originally posted by jameshoward
Silchester's cars are on ebay. I think there are 4 there at present. They have been there for a while (in excess of several months). There are 230's and 280's.
Are you sure? I just did a quick search (mercedes pre 1970) on ebay.co.uk and couldn't find them.
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http://www.silchestergarage.co.uk/
This do? ;)
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I am sure, but 2 have gone since yesterday. They've been there a while so they may just need relisting.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mercedes-Benz-230SL-Pagoda-LHD_W0QQitemZ230191978364QQihZ013QQcategoryZ9855QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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Riccardo, yes the Havana looks a nice car. If you do decide to progress further let us know there is much info on this site than can assist you make a very good judgement on any car.
Rob Walker
1968 280SL papyrus white/green leather
Spain and Turkey
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James and all,
Further to my needling of James on the Scottish Events thread, the 230 had a 3.75 diff, unless it was a US car, in which case it was probably a 4.08. What a nightmare at autobahn speeds! The 3.27 diff can be found on the 108/280SE 4.5, but you must be very careful of wear. Our illustrious ja17 is an authority, and that's where I got my new diff. Eliptical wear knocks out a significant proportion of used diffs.
This is the best Pagoda modification I can imagine--well worth the investment--to make autobahn driving enjoyable.
Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder seat
Sarasota FL; Alsace France; Switzerland
Think of your Pagoda as a woman with a past...stable now including a 92 911 Carrera 2 Tiptronic
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quote:
Originally posted by France
James and all,
Further to my needling of James on the Scottish Events thread, the 230 had a 3.75 diff, unless it was a US car, in which case it was probably a 4.08. What a nightmare at autobahn speeds! The 3.27 diff can be found on the 108/280SE 4.5, but you must be very careful of wear. Our illustrious ja17 is an authority, and that's where I got my new diff. Eliptical wear knocks out a significant proportion of used diffs.
This is the best Pagoda modification I can imagine--well worth the investment--to make autobahn driving enjoyable.
Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder seat
Sarasota FL; Alsace France; Switzerland
Think of your Pagoda as a woman with a past...stable now including a 92 911 Carrera 2 Tiptronic
Hey, France,
This mod may be OK for the flat lands of Fl. but will it get me up the Col du Turini because thats where I'd like to go with my Pagoda? :oops:
I have bought and stripped for rebuild a 3.46 LSD (with JA's advice of course) but have yet to build and fit!!
naj
68 280SL
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Continuing with the drift from the topic (and probably to Riccard's immense relief) France, and anyone else who knows, how do I know what ratio a diff is by looking at it? The reason I ask is that I think I know where a 108 is lurking and I'd like first to check my own diff i.e. what gearing it has, and then I'd like to check that of the 108.
How do I know?
James
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quote:
Originally posted by jameshoward
Continuing with the drift from the topic (and probably to Riccard's immense relief) France, and anyone else who knows, how do I know what ratio a diff is by looking at it? The reason I ask is that I think I know where a 108 is lurking and I'd like first to check my own diff i.e. what gearing it has, and then I'd like to check that of the 108.
How do I know?
James
Look at the bottom left of the diff casing.
The casting is machined flat and the ratio will be stamped on it. It may also have the serial # on as well.
To be any use, the replacement diff will have to come from a V8 engined car (I think).
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/naj/2008131135753_RA346.jpg")
naj
68 280SL
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All interesting comments. I have been following the discussion -- partly because I have asked myself the same thing (boxster vs 113). Of course, I already have the latter -- so I was thinking another depressing PPP - a post-Pagoda-possibility. (and shame on me, I also considered a new Mustang GT convertable).
The only reason I would get a boxster is it's the only Porsche I could afford "new." If I were to buy used, I'd be much more inclined to get either a 911 carerra cabriolet for speed and sportiness -- or a 356 for coolness. I think the Pagoda falls into the coolness category, even though mine is plenty sporty and fast for me.
James
63 230SL
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quote:
Originally posted by rob walker
Riccardo, yes the Havana looks a nice car. If you do decide to progress further let us know there is much info on this site than can assist you make a very good judgement on any car.
Rob Walker
1968 280SL papyrus white/green leather
Spain and Turkey
I'll second that. Also it is the only other Havana Brown 230 SL that I have seen with the Cream Tex interior like mine. All the other Havana Brown 230SLs I have seen have the darker saddle or tan color interior. It also sports light beige hubcaps like mine, indicating a contrasting light beige hardtop might have come with it originally. I couldn't tell from the pictures or description if it now has the hardtop.
- Mike Hughes -ô¿ô-
1966 230SL Auto P/S
Havanna Brown (408)
Light Beige (181)
Cream M-B Tex (121)
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Riccardo,
It is hard to add to the great advice already given, but here it is anyway:
Porsche is a driving experience that can not, imho, be equalled by anything else, even the exotics, for any of the air-cooled 911 models. I have owned 5 of them from '78 thru '95, and every one was more fun and more challenge than I could ever hope to meet. Very cool technology and performance that was a pleasure every time I turned the left-handed key. The experience is all about driving: steering with your right foot and trying to keep all that torque under delicate control.
That said, I appreciate my 230sl more than any of them. It is fun to drive, yes, but it obviously has nowhere near the performance. But it has HUGE grin value, for me that is a function of style, driveability, reliability, elegance, engineering and just plain fun.
Someday I may revisit a Porsche, it would have to be a turbo from the one of the last air-cooled models, but for now I am very happy with the pagoda.
Oh, did I forget to mention the Boxster? Sorry, that is not a Porsche, not even close, imho.
g
'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon
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And if you are really looking for a driving experience, then dont you have to go coupe as anything, with a soft top dilutes that experience! a bit hairdresserish...... ;) hmm light blue touchpaper and wait!!!
Rob Walker
1968 280SL papyrus white/green leather
Spain and Turkey
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I've already had an aircooled 911 and, back then, I too used to deride the Boxster and even the 996 as 'not real Porsches'. These days I am more open minded and just see the Boxster and the latest 'water coolers' as the next evolution of the company. Whether the evolution is a good one is another matter, unfortunately almost all cars these days are nowhere as good under some aspects (soul, long term durability, individuality) as their predecessors. At the end of the day, I want a car that I like, don't care too much about the stigmas that are attached to them.
Am looking forward to seeing that Havana brown 230 tomorrow!
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I remember back in the late seventies when they released the 928, all the purists derided it for not being a real Porsche. The Boxster has a reputation around here for being a "Chick" car.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch...
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Thanks to the sopranos the boxster is the "Porsche with panties"
Purists be dammed I love my water cooled 911 with all its electronic nannies. Those that deny it as a true Porsche can spend their time extricating their car from guardrails when the rear end swings around as it ahs a nasty tendency to do. It is a driving experience on a daily basis for me, the aural pleasure of the PSE exhaust combined with the everpresent ability to press the right foot and make things a blur is without compare. Tooling arond town in the 113 is a different type of experience but not a seat of pants joy that the porsche is.
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The Boxster is what Porsche would have done with the 914 and 914/6 if they hadn't been trying to do it on the cheap while also trying to anticipate the proposed U.S. roll-over standards that all but killed drop-top cars in the 1970s. Now, If I was trying to choose between a well sorted 914/6 and an equally well sorted Pagoda SL it would be a hard choice - both cars have loads of character and period ambiance. But If I had to choose between my SL and a Boxster the Pagoda would win hands down.
- Mike Hughes -ô¿ô-
1966 230SL Auto P/S
Havanna Brown (408)
Light Beige (181)
Cream M-B Tex (121)
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The Boxter will only depreciate while the Pagoda will only get more valuable.
1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.
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The windshield wipers clear the rain on my Boxster S, I use RainX (not wipers) when it rains on my 230SL. Totally different cars whose purposes do not cross for me.
Plus the 113 club has a better club for my needs.
Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, MGB 5-Speed, Boxster S
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Riccardo, dont keep us in suspense. How was the Havana Pagoda?
Rob Walker
1968 280SL papyrus white/green leather
Spain and Turkey
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Naj,
On the cols, you can always shift down... :D
And then you can drive home on the motorway in comfort! Happy motoring. JA's de man!
Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder seat
Sarasota FL; Alsace France; Switzerland
Think of your Pagoda as a woman with a past...stable now including a 92 911 Carrera 2 Tiptronic
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quote:
Originally posted by rob walker
Riccardo, dont keep us in suspense. How was the Havana Pagoda?
Rob, unfortunately unexpected guests on Saturday meant I didn't get the chance to go! Nearly thought of making a day trip for the lot of us but, then again, they wanted to see the sights of London so no can do.
Therefore I remain a Pagoda virgin...
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Check this out, a friend's Boxster S & my early 250sl.
So different, so nice.
A pity that no one stopped to have a look at the Porsche!
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No brainer...you have a daily driver so you must have a W113. Sorry, when I think of Porsche I think of 911s....all other P cars are not even worth giving the "P wave" or the "hello light flash". Dont get the 911 wantabe....For the money, get yourself a real P car..either an 83SC BULLET PROOF or late 87-89 9ll. Those cars will still maintain there vallue. A Boxter....geeezzz
what kind of question is that!!!????
IMHO as always...and I am not biased ;D
abe
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More depreciation, MPG and airbags in the porker
A well bought, preowned Boxster will hold it's value.
Referring to a Boxster as a "porker", when comparing to a 113, is pretty funny. (At least the 113 isn't der Panzerwagen / 107)
That said, I've never been a fan of the car but know others who state they're quite capable vehicles.
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I perused the 5 pages of posts, and no one mention the widely publicized engine defects of early Boxsters.
The first few years had engine casting defects, IMS seal failures which basically leaked non-stop; people used to joke the Check Engine light means Change Engine. Many were warrantied, many were not .
They fixed the issue, however, if you see an early < '99, cheap car stay away.
Re: v. 113
-Porsche prestige v. M-B classic......dont do it for status....a recent Miata will be more fun/less headaches
-The Boxtser will have minimal long term appreciation....check 944 Turbo Values today
-The Boxster has minimal presence v. 113; its now dated, and looks generic
-The Boxster will cost a lot less in long run v. ANY vinateg car
-The Boxster will provide cooler a/c, better heat, sound insulation, better crusing gearing etc.
-It is not like a 911. I raced a 911 and Boxster back to back....Boxster had inferior chassis shake/shudder, dull steering/brake feedback, low power.
If you are looking for a modern summer roadster I would expand your search to TT, Z3, Z4; SLK and even Vette. I did the lightly used Luxo Euro GT in the 90s via a '85 M635 CSI and in retrospect should have gone with a Vette!
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Hi Riccardo,
I have been fortunatel to have owned both. I sold the Boxster S, still have two Pagodas. As you know well, they are two different animals that will have their pros and cons. I love driving my 280Sl's. They are great cars. However, if 300 to 500 mile trips are part of my regular schedule (as you mentioned), a new car will be more comfortable, more safe, and less likely to have issues than an older car will.
John Mancini