Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: Richard Madison on December 08, 2007, 05:03:35
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Hello everyone:
I was away from this website for over two years after I sold my 1971 Tobacco Brown 280 SL. Well, after hearing the call of the Pagoda once again, a few months ago I bought a 1969 Tunis Beige EURO version and now "I'm baaaack". (I hear the groans from some of the old timers here but I promise to behave.)
You may recall (or you will quickly see) that my technical knowledge is limited to changing a spark plug and simlar stress free jobs so for my first new posting I'd like to talk about car colors which is right up my non-technical alley.
When I had a few spare moments, I did a count of the colors in our car Registry which I'd like to share with you.
Caveats and mehodology - when you add comment about 'methodology' to your posting it makes some readers think what you did was important :o)
My count might be off by a car or two but did the count twice. I arbitrarily lumped all Red colors into "Red", all whites into "White", Beiges into Beige, and Blues into "Blue". So Fire Engine Red, Dark Red, etc. are all under "Red" while White, Ivory, Cream, and other shades of white are all under "White, same for the Blues and Beiges.
If you drive one of thsse colors and feel insulted, I apologize in advance but I wanted to avoid some work by reducing the number of colors in my count...and for most of us, any shade of red is a "Red car".
Did not count duplicate car entries, entries with no exterior color, and entries with the color shown only by a code number. There were very few of these so I believe the count is valid. Also, if a comment mentioned a new repaint color and also the original color, I counted the original color.
Finally we get to the good stuff:
Percent of registered cars in the SL113 database by color 10/07:
Executive summary: Whites and Reds account for 50% of all 300 plus cars.
Here are the figures: Whites 28% (113 cars), Reds 21% (83), Blues 14% (57), Silver 11% (43), Green 7% (27), Grey 4% (16), Beiges 4% (17), Brown 4% (15), Black 2% (8), Burgundy 1% (4), Bronze/Copper 1% (4), Cinnamon <1% (1), Gold <1% (1), Champagne <1% (1)
Confirming the predominance of Red and White as colors of choice for these cars, 113's for sale on EBay 11/14/07: of the 26 cars being offered, 18 were red or white - 70%. The same day on Hemmings: of 47 113's for sale, 23 were red or white - 50%.
Not sure what all this means in a practical way except that when I was looking to buy a car a few months ago, I decided not to consider red or white cars. I wound up eliminating about half of all cars for sale.
Richard M, New York City
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Welcome back Richard! I see you have wasted no time jumpping back in the driver's seat. http://www.panix.com/~rmadison/mercedes.shtml The car looks great!
BTW just curious? Which group did my '69 beige-gray color category did my car go in? ;)
1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.
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Hauser:
The link you provided is an old photo of the car with an Albanian license plate, poor fitting hood, missing side molding, and other faults. These are being attended to as I write this.
In a few weeks (months?), I'll post an official "coming out" photo of the car.
Your "Beige-Gray" went into the "Grey" count as it is Gray with a Beige tint.
My own car is Tunis Beige but it was not counted as it was not in the Database when I did the survey.
Richard M
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Hello Richard,
Great to "see" you here again! Welcome back !! It's good to have you among us again.[:p]
Best,
Achim
(Magdeburg, Germany)
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dammit Richard's back and with a supeior car, just when i though I might have a chance at the next concours!
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Richard,
I hate to remind you of this, but on September 29, 2004 at 6:45AM you said:
"This is not an opinion, it's a fact.
The best looking car for elegance, sophistication, and downright beauty is (don't argue) Tobacco Brown with Cognac interior. Exterior:423; Interior:140; Brown Carpet; Beige Soft top 745."
So does this mean you'll be re-painting your tunis beige 280 SL? (Either that or you may want to revise that thread.)
Welcome back!
:-)
Douglas Kim
New York
USA
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This was a thread about car colors but I see some of my "friends" have ganged up to "welcome" me back with some sharp comments. At least Achim was pleasant and sincere.
Douglas: I don't remember saying or writing that Tobacco Brown/Cognac was the best looking combination...and anyway I can't be held resposible for what I said at 6:45 a.m.
If I did mention Tobacco Brown as the best, I misspoke...obviously the best combo is Tunis Beige with Dark Brown interior...that this happens to be my current color scheme is mere coincidence.
Peter: have no fear, my car is not 'superior'..it's a plain jane Driver...OK maybe a clean Driver but nowhere near trophy class. I leave the trophies to you Peter, to Doug, and to the others here with far more skill and perseverance than I have.
Hope to see you all soon...and let's get back to colors.
Richard M
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Hello,
I enjoyed seeing the pictures of your car, especially since earlier today I(my painter) ordered paint for my 1971 280 SL restoration project. In 462 Beige metallic, which I assume is the same as tunis-beige. My car was originally 181 Hell-beige with dark brown interior, but after long considerations(switching back and forth 4-5 times) I decided to go with the new metallic color. IF not original for this car it's at least an original color combination for the year and model.
Regards,
Hans
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Welcome Back, Richard!
I knew it would only be a matter of time.
What fun we've been missing since you've been gone. Your irreverence; your sense of humor, and your NY-crankiness (only matched by the crankiness from Ontario)was sorely missed.
Welcome back once again!
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America
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I wonder if there is any way to know what the production numbers of the various colors were? Guessing they'd be similar to our sampling here...
James
63 230SL
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I believe many of todays cars have had a color change along the way.
1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.
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quote:
Originally posted by J. Huber
I wonder if there is any way to know what the production numbers of the various colors were? Guessing they'd be similar to our sampling here...
James
63 230SL
James,
I'm guessing the production proportions would be very different. Keep in mind that the numbers that Richard quotes are for survivors. Certain colors were inherently weaker to begin with, despite being popular choices. Metallics were very weak, but silver, in particular, comes to mind.
I've said this hypothesis before and I think it's worth repeating—I think the cars with the weakest colors were the first to travel down the slippery slope of decay. First, the paint fades, then you're less inclined to wash it, repair that rust bubble, fix that leaky front engine seal, do that valve job, etc. Pretty soon, it's "that old Mercedes" that is no longer the object of lust it once was. (Some of us are old enough to remember how Pagodas were overshadowed by the 107 SL in the 70s and 80s.)
On the other end of the spectrum, colors like white and horizon blue were incredibly strong. In fact, it's not uncommon to see cars in these colors today wearing their original paint. So the flipside to the theory I just posited is that a white car stands a better chance of being cared for longer because the paint is going to look nicer longer.
Take a look at Brian Peters' site (www.motoringinvestments.com) and you'll see several white 280 SLs in his inventory right now. This isn't a coincidence. That color was tough as nails. I attribute this to what I call the "slippery slope" theory.
Douglas Kim
New York
USA
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Please don't get me started on white cars! It seems that every other car in Florida is white! One time while on the interstate I had some guy fly right by me and seconds later a trooper. Guess what? the trooper pulled over the wrong white car.
As much as I dislike white cars I have to admit the color seems to hold up very well. A few Pagodas I have looked at still had all or most of their white factory paint.
1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.
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Doug:
The idea that cars survive because of their color is an interesting theory. I say theory because we have no proof that color and survival are related. It could be that the proportion of colors among survivors is about the same as they were when Pagodas were being produced...and that even in the 1960's one in four Pagodas was Red (or White).
Is it true that some Pagoda colors fade faster than others? I think this is what Doug means when he says Red and White are "strong" colors, that they don't fade as fast. I haven't seen many faded cars, have others here? Is it that Pagoda colors don't fade or that these cars are re-painted?
At least one person who works on many of these cars believes that nearly 99% of all 113 Pagodas on the road today have been substantially repainted. If this is correct, Doug's theory might need some tweaking since Reds and Whites should not need new paint. I wonder how many of our cars (cars in the Registry) have original paint on most of the body?
Color is interesting to me because it is the one 'option' on a car that allows the purchaser to say "This is me." "This color is my color and it makes me comfortable"
A potential purchaser might pass up a car because the color was "not right". I don't think we would pass on a car because of a Kinder Seat or a specific radio.
Color is very subjective. Red is popular because it is a "hot" color...the color of a car that demands to be looked at...the color of a car that almost looks like it's moving even when standing still.
Without statistical evidence to back me up, I would say that Red is the most popular color for sports cars everywhere because it is a "sporty" color.
White, I guess, is popular because it goes with any combination of tops and interiors...it's a color that implies purity. You might argue that White has the least effect on the visual lines of the car and maybe the best color to show off the inherent elegance of the design.
Do buyers of 113 Pagodas start out looking for White or Red or do they just purchase what is available and acceptable to them? In my own case, I passed on White and Red cars just because these colors are so numerous. I prefer a less common color...but that's just my view and it may be a minority view at that. I do admire Red and White cars when driven by others.
Vintage Ford Mustang owners can look in a book "In Search of Mustangs" to learn the percentage of the original colors of all Mustangs produced in a given year. So far no one has produced "In Search of Pagodas".
Richard M
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Doug, Richard and those debating color.
I find it interesting that for the most part, you are discussing something today (paint) that happened 4 decades ago (the choice and the painting). I have 568G Richard, which is Signal Red (not Fire Engine)and while seemingly attractive and popular here in the USA I understand that our British and European friends don't like this color as much as America does. When I was a kid and the car was new it was 050G and so seemingly, were so many others I remember.
What do you make of the fact that, for all intents and purposes, the ONLY colors you can get a Mercedes in today are Black, White, and Silver? Oh yes there's choices--but they are rare and special order.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America
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quote:
Originally posted by 280SL71
Doug:Is it that Pagoda colors don't fade or that these cars are re-painted?Richard M
Here's a combo for you, it's repainted, but 32 years ago in Herberts 568 Signal Red, the original color and paint.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2288/2095552987_77bf71911a_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2287/2095552899_58d02b3a18_o.jpg
John Lewenauer
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual
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BTW, white was long ago determined to be the "safest" vehicle color by NHTSA. Apparently, white vehicles are involved in far fewer accidents, compared to other vehicle colors, in the US. This fact likely plays some role in the number of survivors of the marque in this particular color.
Gary
1970 280 sl silver/red
1992 NSX
1998 GS400
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quote:
Originally posted by mdsalemi
What do you make of the fact that, for all intents and purposes, the ONLY colors you can get a Mercedes in today are Black, White, and Silver? Oh yes there's choices--but they are rare and special order.
Primarily bacause those are the three most popular colors for all cars in general, not just Mercedes Benz, accounting for 53% of all vehicles sold. DuPont Automotive Systems has done a vehicle color survey every year for several decades. Their most recent survey reveals the following:
White 19%
Silver 18%
Black 16%
Red 13%
Gray 12%
Blue 12%
Beige/Brown 5%
Yellow/Gold 3%
The big news in this year's survey is that White beat out Silver for the number one spot after seven straight years of Silver being on top, the longest run by a single color in the history of the survey.
- Mike Hughes -ô¿ô-
1966 230SL Auto P/S
Havanna Brown (408)
Light Beige (181)
Cream M-B Tex (121)
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Hughes
Primarily bacause those are the three most popular colors for all cars in general, not just Mercedes Benz, accounting for 53% of all vehicles sold.
While I'm sure this is for the most part true, frankly, I'm not sure I believe this in its entirety. Why? Because people buy what is available, not necessarily what they want. As many of you know my wife works for Ford, and we get two new cars every year whether we need them or not. Rarely do we ever get the opportunity to really get the colors we want--and we get a palette to choose from; the cars are built to our specification within a band of available parameters. Most people buying a car choose what is available off the lot, or what might be available in trade at another dealer. I could not get the two-tone I wanted, nor the blue that I really wanted.
That survey might suggest that color preference drives demand; I'd offer that it isn't that simple. The designers are guessing, often more than a year in advance, what colors should be offered. Further--and this is the kicker--there are lots of marketing types that sit around calculating the "mix rates" of colors and options that feed the manufacturing.
When I bought a new BMW years ago, I simply had to get what was available--which in retrospect turned out pretty nice. White with Alpina stripes. But I wanted a metallic "Reseda Green" at the time, and couldn't get it. In fact, I had no choice at all. What came in, came in.
Perhaps a more useful survey would ask people, of the cars that they bought, did they get their first color choice? If not, why not, and what would their first color choice have been? I think that might be revealing.
The ONE and ONLY time I've EVER got the color I wanted first time around was when, my 280SL in primer, I said "OK, go for it. Change from 050 to 568".
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America
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This is quite interesting. In the Netherlands you typically order a car -- custom to your specifications. Dealers try not to own stock, and people order what they want, but have to put up with a waiting list and production delay. So no instant gratification!
In 2001 I bought a Volvo XC70 in Java brown, a very rare colour, with a cream leather interior. The dealer was unsure, but when he received the car some 4 months later, he liked it so much that he put it into the showroom for 2 weeks before delivering it to me. Guess what? There's now about 7 or 8 identical cars driving around in my home town...
In the Netherlands, white cars are very unpopular (until recently, this year it's come back in fashion for very expensive cars only, such as high end Porsches, the Audi R8 and the white colour then fetches a premium over other paints). You would be extremely hard pushed to find a white, recent Mercedes Benz car anywhere in Holland. I think, based on casual observation, the same impopularity of white also extends to Germany.
White cars were very hard to resell second-hand... so much so that there was a popular saying:
"Met een witte, blijf je zitten"
or, now not rhyming, "You'll be stuck forever with a white one".
Car dealers would even discourage customers from ordering a white car as they'd know the resale value would be significantly lower.
Peter
1970 280SL. Also known as 'admin@sl113.org' and organiser of the Technical Manual (http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php).
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I'm not really the only one thinking like I do...this was in this morning's Detroit News:
Detroit News Automotive Section
Wednesday, December 12, 2007
Columnist Ann Job: Car culture
When will we tire of these dull paint jobs?
The annual DuPont automotive paint survey came out this month, and it didn't show anything surprising.
The survey showed that white, silver and black are the most "popular" on new cars in North America. These are the same colors that have been at the top of the DuPont study for years. And no one mentions that these colors are boring and bland, and maybe Americans crave color.
Colorful cars hard to find
OK, black can be sinister and cool on some vehicles. But it's a pain to keep a black vehicle clean, particularly in Michigan.
White really is the absence of color, so it's like picking no color at all for your car.
Don't even get me started on silver. I'm sick of it.
It has covered so many vehicles -- concept and otherwise -- at auto shows in recent years that the show floors have started to look like a sea of gray.
Yes, I understand that many auto company officials prefer silver on their show cars because the color is great for photography.
But it's as boring and dated today as a man in a gray suit. Unless he's Matt Damon or George Clooney, he only blends in; he doesn't shine.
Automotive designers and color experts have told me for years that Americans were going to move away from silver.
They forecasted that silver, which they said reflected society's preoccupation with new technology, would give way to earth tones, such as copper and blues, as Americans focused more on nature and the environment.
But I'm seeing shoppers eagerly putting brown wood floors in their homes while still buying boring-looking silver vehicles.
I'm seeing them snapping up kitchen appliances and computer laptops with bold red and blue colors while still parking white cars in their garages.
Why is the auto business stuck with these ho-hum colors when other industries capitalize on consumers' apparent interest in fun, fabulous color?
Blame some of it on the difficulty that car buyers face in finding and getting a vehicle that's not silver, white or black.
These colors tend to dominate dealer lots.
I know a friend who waited months to get a Honda Fit with Vivid Blue Pearl paint. She could have gotten a silver-colored Fit in no time.
Resale price matters
Then, there's that word "resale."
With new vehicles being so pricey today -- averaging more than $28,000 -- can you blame buyers for being conservative about the color of car they get?
Unless a car buyer plans to drive his or her new vehicle until the wheels fall off, the buyer will tend to shop with an eye toward maximizing how much the car will fetch as a used model somewhere down the road.
This also explains why dealers order and stock their lots with so many silver, white and black vehicles.
It's just too bad that this saddles Americans with such bland car colors.
Ann Job is a freelance automotive writer and can be reached at annjo84@hotmail.com.
What's my take on this?
--Well, she happens to concur that simply FINDING other than white, black or silver is difficult, as I suggested.
--Richard Madison might be onto something with his pronouncement of Tunis Beige being the best color.
--Americans crave color. Laptops and iPods in a palette greater than a cars? Kitchen Aid mixers in 20 colors? I just was at a flooring store last night, and the carpet color selection AND wood floor selection in COLOR was unbelievable.
--Something is amiss here with color and cars.
--And of course, black in Michigan is a most difficult car to keep clean. As a car wash owner, I can certainly agree. ;)
--On a more colorful, brighter note--the photos of our 113's taken at Joe's this summer were a remarkable palette of beautiful colors.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America
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Hi Ho Silver! Mike, sorry to heat your feelings about the colr silver but it's one great color for hiding dirt. Our last three Honda Odyssey 2003-2007 vans have been silver and my last two new car BMW & MB ML purchases were also silver. If I were to buy a new MB today I would be leaning towards pewter. My wife on the other hand has made me promise that in 2010 our new Odyssey will be black / black.
As much as I do like silver If I were to build a new Pagoda today my choices would be quite different. I would either go with med blu met or gray blu met with a cream interior.
A few of us are hung up on originality. Nothing wrong with that! It's only original once! However it doesn't seem to matter with the 300sl and gullwings. They still fetch high prices even with their color change. ( I believe Douglas had brought this up at one time) My car started out as 181 and now its 728H and I'm more than happy with the outcome. Would I ever change it back? Never!
1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.
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Colors..........
I have been lucky enough to own seven beautiful 280SL's. I wish I had the room to keep them all. Two were 906 Grey/Blue metallic. One had black interior, the other parchment. The 906/parchment combo was striking and drew more raves than any other 280SL I've ever owned.
The two that I currently own (and will never part with) are 304 Horizon blue/dark blue (stunning) and 568 signal red/congac (great combo). Also had black/bamboo, 904 blue/blue, What was the worst color combination, and which drew more negative comments????????.....571 red with parchment interior.
Sorry to bore all of you,
Pagoda69
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quote:
Originally posted by hauser
Hi Ho Silver! Mike, sorry to heat your feelings about the colr silver but it's one great color for hiding dirt. Our last three Honda Odyssey 2003-2007 vans have been silver and my last two new car BMW & MB ML purchases were also silver. If I were to buy a new MB today I would be leaning towards pewter. My wife on the other hand has made me promise that in 2010 our new Odyssey will be black / black.
As much as I do like silver If I were to build a new Pagoda today my choices would be quite different. I would either go with med blu met or gray blu met with a cream interior.
A few of us are hung up on originality. Nothing wrong with that! It's only original once! However it doesn't seem to matter with the 300sl and gullwings. They still fetch high prices even with their color change. ( I believe Douglas had brought this up at one time) My car started out as 181 and now its 728H and I'm more than happy with the outcome. Would I ever change it back? Never!
1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.
John, Hauser--There is nothing "wrong" with any color, as long as that is what YOU want, and you chose it NOT because of availability on the lot, or ease of getting it, or "resale", but because that's what you want to be seen in, or the color YOU want your car to be. As I suggest, and this writer has offered up as well, that isn't always why colors are chosen. Availability and resale drive selection as much or more than true desire.
Our wonderful selection of W113's would be something less if silver, black and white were NOT represented. They really are part of the wonderful palette we have. But, if silver, black and white were the ONLY colors we had, then it would be pretty boring.
While Mike Hughes offers up the PPG "survey", even though *yawn* silver black and white are at the top (what a surprise) that mix of selections is NOT reflective of an MB dealer's lot! There's no way that an MB dealer lot has 47% of their stock in other colors.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America
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Just to add my 2 pfennigs, my '67 250SL is a California Coupe, originally sold in Nurnberg, Germany, and left the factory in 158 white-grey with a 190 charcoal grey top and caviar (silver-grey) MB Tex interior. I have owned it since 1985. Finally in 2002 it was time to freshen it up with some new paint since it was still factory original stem-to-stern.
I did end up taking it completely apart to do the job right. I took that oppurtunity to change the color to 268 dark green. I also did the top in the same color and installed a parchment interior (but with green carpet!) I am very happy with my new color choice.
Ray
(268)Green 250 Coupe
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Just like expecting parents spend a lot of time over coming up with a name for the new baby (check the bookstore, there are more books on baby names than on baby health) the first thing people always ask when you tell them you bought a new car is "oh yeah? What color?" even though color has practically nothing to do with getting from A to B safely and economically. So color is apparently very important. My car was repainted ions ago from dark blue into ... white. All of it except the dashboard, that is. And Peter is right - mine is the only white car in The Netherlands ...
P.s. Welcome Back Richard! The round Italian Job side markers will be in the mail to you this Saturday ...
Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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quote:
Originally posted by cees klumper
And Peter is right - mine is the only white car in The Netherlands ...
Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
Well, I guess mine got evicted! (717 papyrus white originally delivered to The Netherlands!)
James
63 230SL
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I may be beating the life out of this car color thing, but just for fun I went digging in my auto literature and pulled out a showroom dealer's color and fabric selection album for the 1958 Oldsmobile. Stop groaning; it is probably typical of the era for GM cars and says a lot about how people bought cars then.
To choose the car color, a 9" long transparent celluloid of the car model you wanted (4-door hardtop, convertible, etc.) was laid over the body color you wanted. 22 looseleaf-bound color plates are in the back of the album with their names (i.e., Rose Mist Metallic; Alabaster White). Additionally, a smaller size set of the same 22 colors is at the top and only covers the roof of the celluloid. Thus a buyer wanting a two-tone car could see what it would look like. There are two pages of factory suggested two-tone color combinations adding to 66 combinations (Only 5 convertible top colors). plus the 22 choices for a monochrome car.
The instructions to the salesforce indicated that any color combination was possible outside of the suggested 88 because the car order form had individual fill-in blanks for body color, roof color, wheels,...! On top of that, you could do accent wheels and covers not matching anything. It's interesting to note that in the factory suggested 88 combinations, the wheels most often matched the roof, like our Pagodas. There is a picture in the album of a white car with a dark gray top and red accent wheels.
There were also five cloth upholstery and 5 leather color choices along with 12 carpet colors. Whew! I can see why most people would opt for one of the factory combinations.
Ray
(268)Green 250 Coupe
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quote:
Originally posted by RCS Coupe
I may be beating the life out of this car color thing, but just for fun I went digging in my auto literature and pulled out a showroom dealer's color and fabric selection album for the 1958 Oldsmobile. Stop groaning; it is probably typical of the era for GM cars and says a lot about how people bought cars then.
To choose the car color, a 9" long transparent celluloid of the car model you wanted (4-door hardtop, convertible, etc.) was laid over the body color you wanted. 22 looseleaf-bound color plates are in the back of the album with their names (i.e., Rose Mist Metallic; Alabaster White). Additionally, a smaller size set of the same 22 colors is at the top and only covers the roof of the celluloid. Thus a buyer wanting a two-tone car could see what it would look like. There are two pages of factory suggested two-tone color combinations adding to 66 combinations (Only 5 convertible top colors). plus the 22 choices for a monochrome car.
The instructions to the salesforce indicated that any color combination was possible outside of the suggested 88 because the car order form had individual fill-in blanks for body color, roof color, wheels,...! On top of that, you could do accent wheels and covers not matching anything. It's interesting to note that in the factory suggested 88 combinations, the wheels most often matched the roof, like our Pagodas. There is a picture in the album of a white car with a dark gray top and red accent wheels.
There were also five cloth upholstery and 5 leather color choices along with 12 carpet colors. Whew! I can see why most people would opt for one of the factory combinations.
Ray
(268)Green 250 Coupe
Ray,
That, without a doubt, is the coolest story I've heard about car color, and one which clearly shows the dramatic change from then to now! Two-tone today is kind of joke. On Ford products (of which I know the most about) it is limited to "cladding" of certain bolt-on pieces like fender flarings, etc. That usually comes in one contrasting color, or body color. I saw a Subaru yesterday that had a lower half in some kind of Charcoal cladding, and then the "greenhouse" was all black--leaving the "body color" to what amounts to a band (it was white[:0]) in the middle.
Just the production cost of that color book you have was probably astounding. Today, you are lucky if you can get a brochure with paint swatches in them!
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America
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Monash University found that silver is the most dangerous color in that men driving silver cars were more likely to be involved in accidents. I think it was Cornell University that found that color choices reflected personality traits. White were stable, dependable, conservative, Red were either extrovert or compensating, Blue were trustworthy, etc. I find most of that to be bunk. There are way too many variables. The only thing we can all agree on is that the world's favorite color is "Shiny". :)
Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe
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quote:
Originally posted by Raymond
Monash University found that silver is the most dangerous color in that men driving silver cars were more likely to be involved in accidents. I think it was Cornell University that found that color choices reflected personality traits. White were stable, dependable, conservative, Red were either extrovert or compensating, Blue were trustworthy, etc. I find most of that to be bunk. There are way too many variables. The only thing we can all agree on is that the world's favorite color is "Shiny". :)
Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe
At various times in my life, I have owned white, silver, red, black, green, orange, yellow, beige, blue, and probably several other colors I'm leaving out. I guess that makes me an emotional chameleon!
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch...
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quote:
Originally posted by mdsalemi
Originally posted by hauser
While Mike Hughes offers up the PPG "survey", even though *yawn* silver black and white are at the top (what a surprise) that mix of selections is NOT reflective of an MB dealer's lot! There's no way that an MB dealer lot has 47% of their stock in other colors.
I will have to go check this weekend. I often see green, blue, beige (sand?), and other colors, but I don't know the percentage of inventory in these more "interesting" colors.
Side note:
When buying my 230SL, I was not concerned with color. Only originality, condition, and price.
When buying my pre-owned C230 several weeks ago, I was concerned only with no-sunroof (for extra head room) and a sport package (for MBCA driving events). I didn't even care if I found a sedan or coupe!
So, in those two purchases color played no role in the purchase decision. When I bought my E420 (Now For Sale!), I had a chance to buy a Turquoise (Not sure if that's right?) 400E and I just couldn't do that.
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL: arabian gray, natural leather, euro, auto, both tops
1994 E420: pearl black, black leather, auto (FOR SALE)
2006 C230: alabaster white, 6-speed manual, no options
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Update on the PPG Survey offered by Mike Hughes: as I've mentioned of course, in this long thread, is the fact that what people end up buying isn't necessarily what they really want. Availability affects purchase as much as desire.
Now, last week I contacted PPG about their survey and received a response from Mr. Simon Cheung, Market Development Manager for PPG Industries. Their response was interesting.
"The color popularity information we published was not derived from a survey. Rather, it is based on vehicles sold."
So, realistically it is not a survey, and it has nothing to do with popularity or anything of the sort: it is simply an historical summary of what the manufacturers chose to build and put on the lots!
Reiterating, true color choice didn't enter into it.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America
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quote:
Originally posted by mdsalemi
Reiterating, true color choice didn't enter into it.
Well, I think in general it must enter into it over the long run. I don't know lots about new car sales, but I do know that the longer a car sits on the lot, the more it costs the dealership. If they notice over a long time periord (several months, more than a year?) that a particular color is taking longer to move, they'll order fewer of that color and more of the colors that move faster.
Oh, and I'm not sure it's the manufacturer deciding how many cars to paint which color. Don't the dealerships order the cars? If the chioce of inventory is driven by the dealerships, then trends in preferred colors would be reflected in what they want on their lots.
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL: arabian gray, natural leather, euro, auto, both tops
1994 E420: pearl black, black leather, auto (FOR SALE)
2006 C230: alabaster white, 6-speed manual, no options
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Rodd,
over the years, this may have changed, but in the 80s and 90s about let's say half of the cars were ordered by the dealers with a specific color (dealer assigned cars). Only few of which were firm orders by customers, and many of those were European Delivery. However, within these assigned cars you could see regional differences, e.g. lighter colors in the south, darker colors in the north.
The other half of the cars were ordered as stock by the Regional Offices of MBNA and by MBNA in Montvale. These cars were usually ordered in very conservative colors. MBNA assigned them to dealers when they were being shipped or already in VPC stock (Vehicle Preparation Centers in the US)
Klaus
1969 280 SL
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I'd like to suggest the existence of "emotional colors" and "unemotional colors".
An emotional color is one that you either absolutely LOVE, or absolutesly DESPISE. Metallic Lime Green, for example. My daughter's Music Teacher, just bought a Ford Escape in that color. She absolutely LOVES it. Many of her fellow teachers razz her about it all the time and would not be caught dead owning a car in that color.
Our friends white, black and silver are unemotional colors. Excepting the writer I quoted earlier in this thread who is going to scream if she sees another car in silver, I think any one of us would find one of these colors suitable to us in a new model. Might not be the first choice, but it would be unoffensive enough and even pleasing enough to live with. But not necessarily the first choice.
And that is what drives this color palette. A dealer certainly does not a car that is going to sit on the lot for a while...like a red one, a blue one, etc. Those might end up being the proverbial tough sell--unless the right person comes along at the right time. Who can take a chance like that with a $100,000 car in inventory? Best be safe and order white, black or silver.
It's kind of funny that as paint technology increases, with these multi-color changing paints, all kinds of fancy paint jobs (you should see what my local HUMMER dealer has in stock, just down the street from MB of Novi) that in some circles the colors are not expanding, but contracting to white, black and silver.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America
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When buying a used car condition and price are the determining factors for me. Having just purchased a 2003 Honda Civic for our teenager (could have bought a '95 E class for half the money) color took a back seat. As luck would have it the darn thing is silver! The boy wanted a black vehicle but will have to settle for something else. He's a lot luckier than I was at his age. My dad made me drive a rust bucket petrol blue '64 Chevy Belair for my Junior and Senior years of high school which by the way no color on earth could have made that car look any better.
1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.
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Personally, I've never seen a pagoda painted a color I didn't like. Certainly, I prefer some colors, like all of us.
I have a hunch that color preferences changed over the years. For example, I think more of the early cars were white and more of the later cars were red. Further, I suspect, from what I have seen and read here for the past several years, that there were more color choices in the 280SLs than in the 230SLs.
Maybe a separate poll for each of the three pagoda models would cast light.
Joe
1965 230SL, white with blue interior
1965 230SL, white with Cognac interior
1965 230SL, white with blue interior, parts car
1967 250SL, red with black interior, needs assembly
1971 280SL, red (Cinnamon) with parchment interior
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quote:
Originally posted by mdsalemi
Update on the PPG Survey offered by Mike Hughes: as I've mentioned of course, in this long thread, is the fact that what people end up buying isn't necessarily what they really want. Availability affects purchase as much as desire.
Now, last week I contacted PPG about their survey and received a response from Mr. Simon Cheung, Market Development Manager for PPG Industries. Their response was interesting.
"The color popularity information we published was not derived from a survey. Rather, it is based on vehicles sold."
So, realistically it is not a survey, and it has nothing to do with popularity or anything of the sort: it is simply an historical summary of what the manufacturers chose to build and put on the lots!
As one who works at the retail level in the car business, I can add some clarity to the very valid points that Mike Salemi brings up.
First of all one must be aware that the manufacturers do not build just what suits the suits in the main office. For the most part the vehicles one sees on any dealer's lot are ordered by that dealer to meet local demand. Manufacturers can only sell what dealers will buy, and dealers will only buy what they think they can sell. Since the dealers buy and pay for their inventory, they have a vested interest in trying to predict what will sell quickly and avoid stocking what hangs around waiting for just the right person to come along. Too many slugs on a dealer's lot sucking up floor plan dollars can drive a dealership into the red in short order. An inventory manager like myself will use historical sales data to reorder fast moving merchandise and avoid reordering slugs, as well as to plot trends. This applies not just to colors, but to equipment levels, body styles, 2wd v.s. 4wd, etc.
The PPG report is just one of many tools at our disposal. It has a track record of being a trustworthy guide for predicting color trends, not just in the automobile industry, but also home furnishings, clothing, and a host of other industries where color can be a thumbs-up or thumbs-down factor. In the case of the automobile industry it is the data about current model year dealer stock going over the curb which manufacturers report to PPG. In other words, actual sales to the end-user are what are counted, rather than the sum total of what might have been produced.
New vehicle buyers are VERY picky about getting what they want and passing on what doesn't appleal to them. The higher the price, the more picky they get! So the idea of folks just blithely driving off in whatever color vehicle is being pushed the day they dropped in is not realistic for the most part. To capture these customer's business it is imperative for a dealer to have an availability of high demand merchandise on the lot or loose the business to another shop that does.
It is not surprising then for the Mercedes-Benz dealer across the street to have 23 silver cars, 14 white cars, 15 black cars, 2 red cars, 4 champagne colored cars, and 2 blue cars parked out front when I walked over the other day to pick up a replacement parking lamp lense for my 300D. That mix probably closely approximates the demand at that store. The showroom had nothing but black and silver cars on display.
Availability drives sales, which drive future availability.
- Mike Hughes -ô¿ô-
1966 230SL Auto P/S
Havanna Brown (408)
Light Beige (181)
Cream M-B Tex (121)
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Great Analysis, Mike--
But let me add the following.
The "Suits" absolutely control things. My wife (who once wore a suit at that time!) was in the Mix and Rates--Options Analysis department at Ford, and those group of suits set the manufacturing model for the packaging of options, mix of colors, etc. that were manufactured. Caveat: the suits don't always get it right, even armed with a lot of data. Show me one manufacturer that doesn't have one leftover model somewhere. Even Honda is having an end of model year sale--the ads are on television every night now. Quite ironically the cars in the ads are bright red... :)
Your most recent analysis didn't cover the emotional/unemotional color thing I raised. Yes, people want certain colors. But, for example, let's say you passionately wanted a Signal Red SL ;) ; you couldn't find it. It is unlikely you'd walk, in my opinion if you were offered Brilliant Silver; but if the only option is Metallic Green, you may very well pass on it. That data interpreted incorrectly would mean you bought silver because you wanted it. That's the PPG model. As I've mentioned, I've satificed on most colors I've ordered, and we get 2 new cars every year, and have so for the past 10 years. I can never seem to get the mix of color I want. So I settle for something OK, but not the first choice. Am I the ONLY person doing that? I hardly think so.
BTW, Brilliant Silver and Black (w/o fingerprints that is) look particularly fetching in the highly-specular light of a dealer showroom which at least partially explains your observation! Blue doesn't look as nice.
You mentioned the PPG study being used for other trends. Well, from what I read, Blue is the in color for 2008, from Pantone. But home paint colors, interior furnishings, etc. all have their own "institutes" and trend-reporters. Don't expect that however to alter the mix of colors available at any car dealer.
The silver/white/black thing in cars avoids entirely the avocado/harvest gold/dark brown phenomenah of kitchens in the late 1960's and early 1970's. Those were the trendy "had to have" colors in kitchens and appliances during that time. Shortly they became the "what was I thinking?" colors of the late 1970's and on. Those who stuck with Stainless Steel or White were never out of favor, but never on the cutting edge...
You are absolutely 100% right about the faster-moving sales colors.
But I think a true survey of what people bought versus what they wanted would be revealing--and as I pointed out with that article, I'm not the only one who thinks availability has as much to do with sales as desire.
If you are in the retail car business, for the next year after you close each and every sale, (make sure the deal is signed) you should ask your customer if they could have had any color in the world on the car they just bought, what would it have been? I'd be interested to hear if the car they got is the #1 color choice.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America
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Silver may be the #1 or #2 color for all cars, but let's not forget that it also holds special significance with Mercedes and the "Silver Arrows" that made their appearance in 1934. There's a reason you see so many silver Gullwings today; it's a nod to its racing heritage.
Douglas Kim
New York
USA
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Here's a parking lot sample for analysis:
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/naj/20071229143856_0621.jpg)
naj
68 280SL
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Naj, that was Speyer on the 40th birthday, no? We were there and missed you! I put the rally plaque in my rear window...
Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder seat
Sarasota FL; Alsace France; Switzerland
Think of your Pagoda as a woman with a past...
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quote:
Originally posted by France
Naj, that was Speyer on the 40th birthday, no? We were there and missed you! I put the rally plaque in my rear window...
Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder seat
Sarasota FL; Alsace France; Switzerland
Think of your Pagoda as a woman with a past...
Yes!!![:p]
naj
68 280SL
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Gentleman, Is there anywhere on the internet to actually "VIEW" the different color coordinates Mercedes Benz optioned for their 280SL ?
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Yes, look in the technical manual section under data cards & codes and go to paint and upholstery codes.
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This site was mentioned somewhere on the Web several years ago (hope it wasn't here!), and I saved it as being interesting.
http://www.insurancewerks.com/news/150327.php
It offers statistics on the percent of cars by color that are involved in insurance claims in a given year. It also lists the same by driver's name.
Joe
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While I did not have a say in the choice of color of the 280SL my dad ordered. 158 white grey with black MBZ Tex and 040 black hard top and soft.
One of the best colors in my own opinion was silver metallic the early silver not the Astro silver on the 450SL. If I could go back in time I would of wanted that color with black leather interior and a black hard top.
Bob Geco