Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Research & Development => Topic started by: TheEngineer on October 24, 2007, 08:34:36
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Bought a '95 E320. I'm really impressed with the power and torque of the engine. It's a straight six with a cast iron block and is interchangeable with my original engine. But it puts out 217 HP and more torque. The transmission starts in 1st gear and is much smoother than what I have now in my '69 280SL. It also has a torque converter that gives impressive acceleration from stand-still. It looks like the engine will fit. It is two inches shorter, but the transmission is 3 inches longer. The shift lever can remain the same, so that the appearance inside the car remains original. How would you value such a car?
'69 280SL,Signal Red,Automatic,retired engineer, West-Seattle,WA (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/theengineer/20051219121123_Drehstern.gif)
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Are you asking how much one would value a '69 280SL with an engine/transmission from a '95 E320 ?
I imagine that if no permanent changes are made to the pagoda (ones that cannot be easily reversed), and all original components are stored somewhere, then the value would remain undiminished... maybe even be higher... Compared to the mechatronic conversions, this would be a steal for someone interested in something environmentally friendlier than the original setup.
I've contemplated this from time to time, given that the 230sl heads are increasingly hard to find now. Put another way, I'd pay good money for a detailed step-by-step write-up from a successful conversion!
Of course, I'd need to find a suitable manual transmission before even considering it ... :D
Waqas ('Wa-kaas') in Austin, Texas
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For me it's all about the 130.983 engine in my car. There is something to be said for the elegance of the original engine. although way ahead of it's time in 1970 it was and is a reliable and beautiful thing.
Besides it will still run after a neuclear attack.
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quote:
Originally posted by theengineer
Bought a '95 E320. I'm really impressed with the power and torque of the engine. It's a straight six with a cast iron block and is interchangeable with my original engine. But it puts out 217 HP and more torque. The transmission starts in 1st gear and is much smoother than what I have now in my '69 280SL. It also has a torque converter that gives impressive acceleration from stand-still. It looks like the engine will fit. It is two inches shorter, but the transmission is 3 inches longer. The shift lever can remain the same, so that the appearance inside the car remains original. How would you value such a car?
'69 280SL,Signal Red,Automatic,retired engineer, West-Seattle,WA (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/theengineer/20051219121123_Drehstern.gif)
The M104-24V is a bullet proof motor derived from the M103-12V.
Only typical problem is a propensity for a head gasket to leak.
It uses the Mercedes late model 722 transmission that offers a first gear start.
Some have a S/W switch to start in second in winter conditions
You would have to transfer all of the engine management electronics including O2 sensor as the engine has Bosch HFM electronic fuel injection.
Check your space on the W113 engine compartment drivers side as the HFM injection sticks out a bit.
Also check the height of the M104-24V to the top of the cam cover.
ED A.
1971 280SL
1988 300CE TWIN TURBO
1990 C43 AMG
2003 G55 AMG
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quote:
Originally posted by Shvegel
Besides it will still run after a neuclear attack.
Yes, but once the nukes go off, where would we get our gasoline from? :mrgreen:
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I'm glad I live by The Engineer so I can witness the process :)
How is the depth of the engine below the mounts. I remember that 6.9 conversion where it stuck down.
I'd say who cares about value as long as you are keeping the car.
As long as it can be reversed you can sell it at what you think is fair price with the engine in or swap back if you can't get that price.
I wonder how that engine compares horsepower to weight with the one out of the 190E-2.6?
What are you a retired engineer of, btw?
1967 230SL Havana Brown Auto with A/C
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quote:"Besides it will still run after a neuclear attack"
He didn't mean "nuclear attack". A "neuclear" thing is different: It's real clean - leaves the roads usable & the gas pumps running. Just the right environment for W113's.
To Seattle Jerry: "What kind of Engineer"? Well, yesterday I couldn't spell it, today I are one. But I served an apprenticeship as mechanic. You've seen the movie? then went to engr. school. Designed a few things and when they said:"Build it", I did. But now I'm old, fat & balding and, because women don't want me, work in my garrage. And if you want to help me pull the engine, I could use some help!
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I always think of Bronson in "The Mechanic" when I see "The Engineer" I should change mine to "The Graduate" since I was a plastics engineer.
So you are serious about this project and ready to start tearing things out? That was fast!
Beat everyone to the punch and go fuel cell. I might have some time to help this winter. I have a commercial painting company and things are always slower in winter. I also have a Master's thesis to finish :x
1967 230SL Havana Brown Auto with A/C
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Actually I did mean nuclear. It's a good thing that my living is not dependant on either typing or spelling.
It's all about the EMP's baby.
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No, Jerry, I'm just thinking about it. The engine I have in the car now appears to have been rebuilt. It's nicely painted, has Mahle first oversize pistons in it and very little wear. I measured the holes and find that they are still within the wear limits. Of course, you can only really tell after the cylinders have been honed. But the engine wasn't broken in properly and I know that the rings have not seated in all cylinders. There were other indications that, whoever did the work, wasn't too experienced. I did replace the head and have a 09 cam for it. I never liked the transmission, although I did some work on it and it shifts quite smooth now. It has hydraulic clutch instead of a torque converter. I heard that the Germans were prohibited from building torque converters after the war. A torque converter multiplies the engine torque by about two times and that's just what that car needs. So I'm thinking. The test of my contemplations is, of course, a successful conversion. So, what would the group think, if I'd come up with a better drive train? It wouldn't show from the outside.
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1995 would be about the time that the European Insurance companies began to demand that the car companies install better theft prevention systems in their vehicles. you might want to see if you have any sort of transponder key with this vehicle. The theft prevention system might involve several electronic modules within the vehicle which need to talk to each other as well as a ring antenna associated with the ignition lock.
In the world of BMW(I used to teach for them) just the simple act of trying to start the car with one of the involved modules powered down might require a trip to the dealer on a flatbed in order the realign the rolling codes in the modules.
I would call a dealer parts department and ask if you ordered a new key would need to bring in the car in order to have it programmed to the vehicle?
Also take a hard look at the room around the power brake booster. On our cars it is pretty far forward and might pose a problem. I have seen several poorly done engine swaps that ended up with no power brakes because of this.
With alot of work and a little ingenuity anything is possible(the photo at the bottom of the page tells the story):
http://www.ritzsite.net/280SL63/05_SL63.htm
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Getting all the electonics sorted out are issues that could all be solved. One problem could be the 4.08 or 3.92 rear axle, I'd bet the E320 would have a ratio around 3.08.
The M127 engine is one of the elements of my car that I enjoy. I have always loved the style of these cars, but they also have a feel that I havn't experienced any where else.
When the V8 107's came out I thought they drove more like a Ford Mustang than a Mercedes.
When people change the drive line in a car it is usually because the power plant they are switching to is from cars they are more used to working on.
Sometimes the adaptation is a realy slick instalation that fits in like it was made that way at the factory, and sometimes it is just a bunch of cobbled together pieces. Worst case, it doesn't even run as well as the worn out motor that was taken out.
I am biased, this IS the motor that I am the most familiar working on, and the 113 styling is top notch too.
If I were to make a mutant car, I would most likely put a small block Chevy/350turbo trans in a 67 Mustang fastback.
I like the Ford style, and the Chevy drive line.
Al Lieffring
66 230Sl
a-cheesin with a new 85 l. tank
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Why are we entertaining this kind of thinking anyway? If you don't like your car and what it can do for you, buy something else or something newer. I for one, feel no guilt about spewing out nasty exhaust fumes from my old car - it's what it is and I like it that way.
I thought this club was about the restoration, preservation and conservation of 113 autos in their original form. It worries me to see ever increasing posts and topics about changing engines and other modifications to original cars when I believe, frankly, they don't belong here at all. And I don't mean simple stuff like electronic ignition....
Either the membership of this site ( club ) is serious about maintaining their cars as historic vehicles, or they aren't. Either we do things right around here or we slowly turn our cars into typical '57 Chevy's - cars that are rarely seen in original form any more. In fact, you have to go to a pretty high end car show these days to even see original examples.
As I said before, it's your car and you can do what you want with it. However, I find it difficult not to say something when I believe it needs to be said. And while I have no control over how things are done around here, I do have the option of not going along with it.
Once someone figures out a way to effectively ( read cheaply ) street rod a 113, then it really will be a sad day....
1) because we let it happen
2) no one said anything about it
3) because I'll probably decide to leave
Dan Caron's
SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
slbarn.mbz.org
1 877 661 6061
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quote:
Originally posted by Benz Dr.
Why are we entertaining this kind of thinking anyway? If you don't like your car and what it can do for you, buy something else or something newer. I for one, feel no guilt about spewing out nasty exhaust fumes from my old car - it's what it is and I like it that way.
I thought this club was about the restoration, preservation and conservation of 113 autos in their original form. It worries me to see ever increasing posts and topics about changing engines and other modifications to original cars when I believe, frankly, they don't belong here at all. And I don't mean simple stuff like electronic ignition....
Either the membership of this site ( club ) is serious about maintaining their cars as historic vehicles, or they aren't. Either we do things right around here or we slowly turn our cars into typical '57 Chevy's - cars that are rarely seen in original form any more. In fact, you have to go to a pretty high end car show these days to even see original examples.
As I said before, it's your car and you can do what you want with it. However, I find it difficult not to say something when I believe it needs to be said. And while I have no control over how things are done around here, I do have the option of not going along with it.
Once someone figures out a way to effectively ( read cheaply ) street rod a 113, then it really will be a sad day....
1) because we let it happen
2) no one said anything about it
3) because I'll probably decide to leave
Dan Caron's
SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
slbarn.mbz.org
1 877 661 6061
I tend to agree.
I would consider bastardizing if all I had was a W113 rolling chassis and didn't want to expend time, energy and dollars to locate the proper parts.
Very new owner of a 1971 280SL, but I find the performance of the M130 is not too bad considering the era it was produced.
I have a 1988 300CE which I bought new in May of 1988.
From the factory it was rated 177HP/188LBFT torque.
Compare with the numbers of the 280SL and not much difference.
I did however recently install a period twin turbo kit on the M103-12V that was regularly supplied pre delivery on new W124's in the early nineties by a UK Merc dealer, Hughes of Beaconsfield.
In my case I now have AMG V8 power but with provenance of a period install.
I would think it would be as cost effective to rebuild the stock Pagoda engine compared to attempting an install of a newer engine and transmission.
Up to the owner and what he's looking for... !!!
ED A.
1971 280SL
1988 300CE TWIN TURBO
1990 C43 AMG
2003 G55 AMG
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This is the kind of issue that generates strong opinions on both sides of the fence. The one side believes that we should maintain the true integrity of the original car and the other side wants to improve with more modern technology. What first attracted me to the car was the look. Hands down it was the look of the car. It was not the way it handled, the engine, brakes or anything else. Just the way it looked. (Thankfully I have not seen examples of spoilers, hood scoops, radically flared fenders. I would draw the line there.)
I feel fortunate that we have such a diverse membership and can rely on one another to help with questions and problems rather than just taking our cars to a shop. And I know several of you operate these shops and are still willing to share your expert knowledge. But I am also grateful that there are those members that are willing to push the envelope and explore new possibilities and share their experiences with the rest of us. I do not have to agree with everything they may do, or in this case consider doing. But asking the question is a good start to any dialog. Since we all no more than we did 40 years ago (Of course guys like Joe A have probably forgotten more than I will ever know about these cars) I see nothing wrong with exploring the possibiiities of what "could be." "Bigger" and "better" may not be always "better". But how do we know unless we can satisfy that curiousity? Our cars are as unique as this membership is in its devotion to them. But lets not forget that each of us has their own reason behind what the Pagoda does for them.
Frank Koronkiewicz
Willowbrook, Illinois
1970 280SL Light Ivory
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I, for one, would love to hear more about this project if you proceed.
I have checked on the conversion to electronic injection and find it quite feasable, but my injection pump seems to be holding, so I'm going to wait until it fails. This project solves that problem and adds the other technical benefits of the later transmission.
About preserving the original car:
I, like many of you, have driven and/or owned some of the finest cars ever built. And yet, everyone of them has left me wanting in some way after driving it for a short time. Every racecar is modified to fit the requirements of each driver, and every car contains some sort of compromise. The W113, while an exceptional car, has its foibles that are not insignificant. While going to a 6.3 or 6.9 engine is not for me, changing to a later motor of the same marque makes eminent sense to me. Each to his own.
Sometimes after reading comments in forums, I think an ejection seat for the drivers is in order.
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Nicely put. We are all individuals and I see nothing seditious about those interested having a discussion about this or that aspect of their fascination for these cars. Read what you want, after all it is a free country, mine anyway.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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( sigh )
In typical fashion some don't get it but that's OK. I'm not talking about freedom of speach or the pursuit of happiness I'm taking about the general direction this club is going. If we open the door to all kinds of ideas about modifiying 113's then our original purpose is lost and we might as well all go home.
Everyone is indeed welcome here, but I always thought our mission was to preserve orignial cars and not about creating street rods. If you don't like your car and all the problems it has either fix it or sell it.
Dan Caron's
SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
slbarn.mbz.org
1 877 661 6061
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If the M130 is such a great motor, how come nobody is talking about stuffing one into his 1995 E320?
Just kidding. In reality, I have some kind of "originality disorder," so I'm the last person here who can participate in this thread. :-)
Douglas Kim
New York
USA
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Well, seeing as how I cringe when somebody changes from points to Pertronix, you know how I lean on this one. I am all for people doing whatever they want to their cars -- but at what point do these various modifications make the car something other than a Pagoda? Its not just the "look" that makes it special to me. It is the whole package, even with its numerous "idiosynchracies" (remember that thread?)...
Of course, there will always be the "tinker" types that love a challenge and a chance to "improve things." I say go for it. Me, on the other hand, I am happy just owning one of these little cars and doing whatever I can to keep driving it.
James
63 230SL
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The 57 chevy hot rodders didn't ruin their cars, they saved them.
If they hadn't hot rodded them, those cars would have went to the scrapyard along with all the other 57's that were no longer wanted.
There wasn't a great horde of people lining up to pay the price for maintaining them as daily drivers (except Cubans).
However, the cars that were hot rodded are still around and could easily be changed back if someone were a stickler for originality.
Swapping engines isn't ruining the car, it is keeping the original engine from needing cylinder sleeves afer too many rebuilds. As long as you keep the parts and don't modify anything that can't be replaced, you are just making a more reliable daily driver.
By having the car out on the road more often it will remind people of the model and inspire more people to buy and fix up an SL.
Me personally, engine swaps are too much of a hassle. Getting everything to work right is a pain.
Incidently, there is lots of talk about rear end swaps, its no different swapping an engine than a rear end, both alter the feel of the car as originally intended.
1967 230SL Havana Brown Auto with A/C
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I rebuilt the engine in my 280. First engine I had been inside of in 25 years. I couldn't have done it without the help of this forum and Dan and Joe in particular. It's great to have those who know originality and preservation and we should, and do, hail their talents and labors.
However, don't I recall that "The Red Rocket" has a modified distributor and some other "improvements". Were those done because original performance was completely satisfactory?
There are thousands of our cars out there. Some are perfect museum pieces and rarely see the light of day or the open road. To me, that's sad. Perfect originality is perfect sameness. As examples diverge, the originals become more valuable in their class. It's perfectly allright for the "Originals" camp to tut tut the tinkerers. But,to withold their knowledge from other preservationists would be sad indeed.
Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe
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Hear, Hear: Benz Dr. (Dan Caron) Really liked this one at the time!
Originally posted by theengineer in June 2005
Yesterday I went to a car & hot rod show. There was a 190SL with a Lexus 400LS engine. The engine is all aluminum, has dual overhead cams and produces over 300 HP with the modifications. The gearbox is a Datsun 5 speed manual, the rear axle a 3.69 positraction from a 280 sedan. The fuel tank was pushed in locally to make a room for the bigger axle. The car weighs now 2700 lbs, which is 100 lbs more than before. The front springs were not changed because the engine does not weigh more. Because of the 3 fold increase in engine power, the rear wheels can be made to spin in first, second and third, depending on the pavement. The car took Best in Class, even though I had my very original 280SL entered in the same class (Foreign cars). Attached is a picture of the engine installation.
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/theengineer/200672310356_DSCF0223.JPG)
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Well then I have a solution.
I sugest we open a new forum called resarch and development so '' tinkerers '' can go there and post to their heart's content and leave the general forum to general things as it was intended. This should satisy everyone and bother no one at the same time.
Dan Caron's
SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
slbarn.mbz.org
1 877 661 6061
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Doesn't one way or another to me. I just like playing the devil's advocate. I'm not planning on changing anything on mine.
Actually someday I plan on buying one of those 300SL kits so I can build a tube chassis and have a ridiculous engine, guilt free fast car with low emissions that still has the classic look I prefer.
I just wish I knew how to use an English wheel then I would build an all aluminum car body from scratch...old school.
1967 230SL Havana Brown Auto with A/C
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Dear all,
I hope we are not overdoing the "hot-rodding" fear factor in this forum. The vast majority of members (certainly the silent majority) have absolutely no plans to modify or hot-rod their cars.
As far as I recall, most people here are attempting to keep their cars as original as possible. Also, the whole effort around the Technical Manual (http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php) is about recording the history and definitive truth on all matters Pagoda.
However, as someone who is involved in trying to put together that manual, I notice that precisely the efforts of those that tinker, attempt to improve (sometimes successfully, sometimes not), and subsequently share their experiences with us allows me to make that manual all the more definitive.
So please all, keep in mind that a variety of opinions and experiences is necessary to end up with the correct answer... in that way it's a little like Darwinism.
And also keep in mind that the few people who are attempting something wild with their ride, are few indeed.
So let's all be tolerant of one another. And keep up the good, cooperative and sharing spirit that has made this forum to the best in the Mercedes-Benz world.
Peter
Also known as 'admin@sl113.org' and organiser of the Technical Manual (http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php). Check out http://bali.esweb.nl for photographs of classic car events and my 1970 280SL.
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:) Thanks Peter !
Well said ! This is a great group of car enthusiasts with lots of great ideas. Lets keep sharing and keep these wonder cars alive and well. Even though some of us may stray from our data cards a bit, this site and its members help many of us to undo the many years of abuse, neglect and total wrong doing with these fine machines...
To all W113 members ... Please participate in those threads that you can help in. If you dont like a particular thread, then dont participate. Lets keep it positive and fun :) !
Thank you W113 members!
Bob
bpossel (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL / '97 E320
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My Data Card shows that I had MBTex interior. I installed leather because I wanted to when I made some interior repairs. I increased my insurance with Hagerty because of my "increase value". They at first wanted to call my new interior a customization but after an explaination that it was an available option they left that out.
Bruce; 268Blaugrun(green) 1970 280SL; IL
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I like Dan's idea. Can we add a subsection to the forum and call it R&D?
As we move forward with future planning should we also consider additional subsections to focus posters and readers on specific areas of major interest. Sort of a bridge between the forum and tech manual. Given the 5,600 topics and 46,000 replies maybe its time to consider the future and how best to evolve the forum? We would not be the first to address this, can we learn from the experience of others?
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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I just wanted to say that I am not in favor of a separate section for R and D. I have watched many threads where someones' idea for modification has been helped along or they have been cautioned by someone else who had more knowledge in a given area. Relegating the technical nomad to a back page will limit the imput of others who may be able to help them along.
I greatly appreciate people like Walt Klatt who has a 4 cylinder diesel engine in his 113. It might not be what I want to do with my car but the days of fuel in plentiful supply are coming to an end and we all might have to look toward alternatives some day if we want to keep enjoying our beloved 113.
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Let's be clear about something, OK?
I'm not talking about colour changes or other things that fall into typical personal choices. I'm talikng about wholesale changes like going to a non stock engine from another brand or even a more modern MB engine.
This isn't what I think anyone would consider to be a typical modification. That is in fact street roding or reto rodding.
And yes, while there's probably only a few people here who are doing such things it's something I don't like to see. We'll probably set up a seperate forum for this kind of thing and leave it at that.
I honestly believe that major modifications shouldn't be considered by anyone for obvious reasons.
And the top ten reasons you shouldn't modify your car:
1)it greatly devalues the car
2) some modifications aren't safe at all or done well
3) you can't get vintage plates in most cases
4) putting things back to original is often difficult or too exspensive which is how your car got devalued in the first place
5) too many of these projects end up never finished and the car gets parted out ( may be a good thing actually )
6) you can't compete in national MBCA events ( not a great deterent I suppose )
7) the cost to do these mods are often more than doing it right
8 ) you get sent to the back of the bus
9 ) warts start to grow on your back side
10 ) you get tut tuted by people like me who want nothing to do with cars like this
Dan Caron's
SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
slbarn.mbz.org
1 877 661 6061
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I installed a 3.27 rear axle in my little red car several years ago. It really was an improvement: The car is better on the freeway and just fine in town. But I did grow a wart on my back. Actually, a little further down. I'll let you know what happens when I put this transmission in, that I have had sitting in my garrage. Can you tell me what will happen if I install that 09 cam?
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Dare I ask....what transmission?
1967 230SL Havana Brown Auto with A/C
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I think you loose your rotating star. It seems to be happening already because I don't see it anymore.
Well..... the 09 cam will give you about 250 HP but your brakes won't handle it. One day you run into a beautiful blonde at an intersection who feels sorry for you since you're all smashed up from the huge wreck you were just in. She doesn't even have a scratch, visits you in the hospital every day and falls madly in love with you.
Your wife finds out and kills you.
You go to heaven where you meet St. Peter who asks you some important questions.
St Peter.
'' So, you're an engineer, eh? ''
Pete.
'' Ah, yeah, that's right... ''
'' And your wife killed you? ''
'' Uh huh. ( ? ) ''
You're not sure where he's going with this but it doesn't look good. He changes his line of questions.
''So, you modified your car, eh? ''
( St. Peter is clearly a Canadian )
'' I'm an engineer, that's what we do. ''
'' Oh, really? '' comes the sly reply. '' The devil tried to modify things and look what happened to him.''
You swallow hard. This looks pretty bad. He has you right by the....
'' So, can you look at my car? It seems to be running a bit lean.''
'' Huh???? ''
Pete.....Pete! Peter!!!!
Huh???!!!
Wake up Peter you're having a bad dream!
( You're wife isn't impressed with you or what you're doing. )
You've fallen asleep on the sofa while watching TV. You were watching The Trailer Park Boys and the blonde in your dream is Lucy. She also looks like the blonde girl at the hospital.....
You decide not to tell your wife about the blonde in your dream or mention the nurse at the hospital while you were put under to remove several warts from your back side.
You recover slowly but after a while you don't remember the strange dream you had or the accident.
( One day you hear a knock at the door. You go and answer. It's the Benz Dr making a house call.... )
Dan Caron's
SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
slbarn.mbz.org
1 877 661 6061
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Brilliant! ...but isn't there a separate section for short stories...???
:D :D :D
Waqas ('Wa-kaas') in Austin, Texas
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Oh - That's funny! I haven't laughed so hard in a long time! THANK YOU BENZ DR.!
'69 280SL,Signal Red,Automatic,retired engineer, West-Seattle,WA (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/theengineer/2007118132030_SmallStar.gif)
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Love it ! (' :D ')
At times all that I read here is far too much for me to comprehend, as I am still a learner !
However, Dan Caron's , I salute you.
(' :D ')
Kemal
280 SL Manual 69
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Guess I'll have to throw out that Getrag 5 speed I just adapted to a 113 bell housing. Wouldn't want to loose my star.
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Hehehe
That's a vintage part. You can still look.... if you're a good boy.
Dan Caron's
SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
slbarn.mbz.org
1 877 661 6061
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I have deciced to take a different tack on my Pagoda resto project:
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/200710301534_PAGO%20DUH.jpg)
Does any one have an extra F350 pickup frame laying around?
Al Lieffring
66 230Sl
a-cheesin with a new 85 l. tank
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Al,
Maybe the Supercharged V8 isn't such a good idea. I have a brand new S-38 6 cylinder engine from a 1988 BMW M5 in my garage. Might start a nice teutonic meltdown.
Not to mention you would piss off the BMW guys too.