Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: dendrinos on June 10, 2007, 19:23:23
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I have been in the process of replacing the heater control levers on my 69 280sl. In the process I thought I would also replace the air intake filter . in getting to that I see that the seal to the fresh air flap could stand to be replaced as well.
Digging deeper still I see what looks like a side wall to the heat exchanger has broken off and is just sitting there. So I guess I am going to replace that as well. And here is the question;
Does anyone have experience with that replacement? How do I get it out of there? Are there things I should be watching out for while doing this replacement? Or perhaps other things I should also replace at that time?
Also I notice that all things foam related have disintegrated in and around the heater / air flow system. I’ll replace the defroster nozzle seals, but are there other seals not in the SLS breakout sub section 83 I should be replacing?
The thing is while I’m in there, I might as well do it right, and not have to go back in later to redo something.
Thanks for any input. Oh is there a better place in the USA to get these items than going to SLS? I don’t have a problem with it, but perhaps I can save a buck, or even some time in transport.
I guess it's worth noting that the car does not have ac.
Thanks
Pete
280 Sl
Michigan, USA
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Have you tried Bud's Benz? http://www.budsbenz.com/catalog/200
Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS
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Hi, Pete,
I believe that changing the heat exchanger (heater core) is a pretty major undertaking. It is fairly common for the guard piece that you found to come off the side/top of the core, and as far as anyone in the group has reported, it is fairly innocuous. It's probably unnecessary to dive into the heater core just because of that piece, and only replacing the foam/rubber bits might be a lot easier. Of course, if you want it to be perfect...
-David Pease
'66 French 230SL
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Pete,
Not sure what you mean by a 'side wall to the heat exchanger.' If you mean that there is a thin metal sheet bobbing around alongside the heater core, this is just a back plate for the element. It's not uncommon for them to fall off and just sit there. Mine is the same, and the advice I had was simply to remove it and not worry about it. I haven't pulled it out yet, but I intend to. There are other posts about it on the site, but you needn't worry about replacing it. Assuming, that is, that we're talking about the same thing!
(I have some photos somewhere if you need one to confirm)
JH
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While i have seen buds mentioned here before, i have never found a link or their web site. Thank you for the information. They are a reputable shop?
Pete
quote:
Originally posted by Rolf
Have you tried Bud's Benz? http://www.budsbenz.com/catalog/200
Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS
280 Sl
Michigan, USA
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I am funny that way. It will bother me that there is something not quite right, and i have done nothing about it. Ignorance is indeed bliss!
The foam on the heat exchanger housing is also degrading to the point of sloughing off. I could kill two birds with one stone as it were.
quote:
Originally posted by DavidAPease
Hi, Pete,
I believe that changing the heat exchanger (heater core) is a pretty major undertaking. It is fairly common for the guard piece that you found to come off the side/top of the core, and as far as anyone in the group has reported, it is fairly innocuous. It's probably unnecessary to dive into the heater core just because of that piece, and only replacing the foam/rubber bits might be a lot easier. Of course, if you want it to be perfect...
-David Pease
'66 French 230SL
280 Sl
Michigan, USA
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I do believe we are talking about the same thing. As i mentioned below i am a bit OCD (obsessive/compulsive) about stuff like this.
It does look like the tack welds simply broke on the housing. i could almost see a repair rather than a replacement if i could get at it. But then i would still be dealing with rotten foam.
Pete
quote:
Originally posted by jameshoward
Pete,
Not sure what you mean by a 'side wall to the heat exchanger.' If you mean that there is a thin metal sheet bobbing around alongside the heater core, this is just a back plate for the element. It's not uncommon for them to fall off and just sit there. Mine is the same, and the advice I had was simply to remove it and not worry about it. I haven't pulled it out yet, but I intend to. There are other posts about it on the site, but you needn't worry about replacing it. Assuming, that is, that we're talking about the same thing!
(I have some photos somewhere if you need one to confirm)
JH
280 Sl
Michigan, USA
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Hi Pete,
Mine was loose also, and I simply removed it.
See more info under this posting...
http://index.php?topic=6028
Regards,
Bob
bpossel (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL / '97 E320
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...And it was Bob's thread as attached that confirmed to me it was of little use! (Funny how these things go around - thanks for posting it Bob. I must get mine out as every time I go over a bump I hear it's tinny rattle which is annoying).
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Thank you bob. I looked around but didn't find these posts. I take it from one of the photos that all this was done from within the cabin of the vehicle. Perhaps by removing the housing etc...
pete
quote:
Originally posted by bpossel
Hi Pete,
Mine was loose also, and I simply removed it.
See more info under this posting...
http://index.php?topic=6028
Regards,
Bob
bpossel (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL / '97 E320
280 Sl
Michigan, USA
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Bob could you share with me how you got it out of there?
It does not look lie it will come out the top.
Pete
quote:
Originally posted by bpossel
Hi Pete,
Mine was loose also, and I simply removed it.
See more info under this posting...
http://index.php?topic=6028
Regards,
Bob
bpossel (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL / '97 E320
280 Sl
Michigan, USA
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Pete,
This is pretty serious surgery. When they built the W113 the factory started with a heater core and then built the entire car around it...
Well, maybe not that bad. But you will need to remove the fan box, which requires removing the heater ducts (I think the job can actually be accomplished with these in place, but I would not risk destroying these expensive and fragile pieces). I actually released my wiper assembly to get easy clearance. Again, probably not required but everything is such a tight fit I was being cautious.
As I recall, the fan box needed to slide to the right, into the passenger footwell, to be removed.
Then the only other trick is to access the heater valve control arm through the access hole on the engine side of the firewall. And then, yes, the heater core comes out from the cabin side. While you are at all this, have a look at the archives for how to renew the o ring in the control valve.
BTW, I had the same problem with disattachment and I j-welded mine back together. If you are handy with a brazer you could do the job properly.
Best,
g
'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon
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It looks as though the drivers side defroster duct needs to be detached from the box below it. the passenger is easily removed with the radio and glove box out. however the driver side is another issue. Do i need to remove the tach. and other gages to get at it. Did i hear i may need to remove the steering wheel column as well?
Pete
quote:
Originally posted by enochbell
Pete,
This is pretty serious surgery. When they built the W113 the factory started with a heater core and then built the entire car around it...
Well, maybe not that bad. But you will need to remove the fan box, which requires removing the heater ducts (I think the job can actually be accomplished with these in place, but I would not risk destroying these expensive and fragile pieces). I actually released my wiper assembly to get easy clearance. Again, probably not required but everything is such a tight fit I was being cautious.
As I recall, the fan box needed to slide to the right, into the passenger footwell, to be removed.
Then the only other trick is to access the heater valve control arm through the access hole on the engine side of the firewall. And then, yes, the heater core comes out from the cabin side. While you are at all this, have a look at the archives for how to renew the o ring in the control valve.
BTW, I had the same problem with disattachment and I j-welded mine back together. If you are handy with a brazer you could do the job properly.
Best,
g
'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon
280 Sl
Michigan, USA
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This brings back wonderful memories! I don't think I was ever able to get the drivers side defroster duct out, but it isn't necessary to remove it. You just have to remove the two screws that hold the defroster duct to the heater box. Removing the left screw is difficult. I don't think I had the steering column out. The first thing is to try to get your hand in there and find the screw head. If you can find it, you may be able to get a small wrench on it, or a small ratchet and socket, and get it out. It takes some contorting to do it. I think I used a stubby 10 mm ratcheting box end wrench, or else a 10 mm socket and 1/4 inch drive ratchet.
The other fun fastener is the lower fan box mount, which bolts into the transmission tunnel. The access panel has to be removed to get it out, which also requires removing the carpet over the trans tunnel. If the carpet is glued down, it may be damaged in the process.
If you're going so far as to get the heater core out, you end up with most of the dash disassembled, so you might as well repair everything you can while you're at it. It is easier to take it all apart the second time, though.
Good luck with it!
George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual
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Thank You George. It's not unusual for me to find myself in protracted situations like this. I'll make the best of it, by replacing lights, gaskets, cleaning things up etc...
Pete
quote:
Originally posted by George Davis
This brings back wonderful memories! I don't think I was ever able to get the drivers side defroster duct out, but it isn't necessary to remove it. You just have to remove the two screws that hold the defroster duct to the heater box. Removing the left screw is difficult. I don't think I had the steering column out. The first thing is to try to get your hand in there and find the screw head. If you can find it, you may be able to get a small wrench on it, or a small ratchet and socket, and get it out. It takes some contorting to do it. I think I used a stubby 10 mm ratcheting box end wrench, or else a 10 mm socket and 1/4 inch drive ratchet.
The other fun fastener is the lower fan box mount, which bolts into the transmission tunnel. The access panel has to be removed to get it out, which also requires removing the carpet over the trans tunnel. If the carpet is glued down, it may be damaged in the process.
If you're going so far as to get the heater core out, you end up with most of the dash disassembled, so you might as well repair everything you can while you're at it. It is easier to take it all apart the second time, though.
Good luck with it!
George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual
280 Sl
Michigan, USA
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Hi all,
If this problem is "solved" by merely removing the loose piece,
sooner or later the welding on the tube(s) from the heater core going through the firewall will break off.
Hans
'71 '70 '68 280 SL
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While you are in that deep, there are a few things you can do that can make a big difference: renew all the bulbs, lubricate the control cables, and clean the inside of the instrument glass.
And be really careful removing the screws that George references, the old heater ducts are fragile and you don't want to rip the attachment feet. And no, you don't need to remove the column but getting the steering wheel out of the way will make things easier.
Best,
g
'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon
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Hans, this is exactly my reasoning. better to do the job correctly the first time than have to come back an redo it later. My objective is to bring this car back to like new condition. I am not too far away.
Pete
quote:
Originally posted by hkollan
Hi all,
If this problem is "solved" by merely removing the loose piece,
sooner or later the welding on the tube(s) from the heater core going through the firewall will break off.
Hans
'71 '70 '68 280 SL
280 Sl
Michigan, USA
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Enochbell, thank you for the ideas, i will indeed look at those items. I imagine that will prompt more questions, but it will be good to know it is done correctly.
Pete
quote:
Originally posted by enochbell
While you are in that deep, there are a few things you can do that can make a big difference: renew all the bulbs, lubricate the control cables, and clean the inside of the instrument glass.
And be really careful removing the screws that George references, the old heater ducts are fragile and you don't want to rip the attachment feet. And no, you don't need to remove the column but getting the steering wheel out of the way will make things easier.
Best,
g
'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon
280 Sl
Michigan, USA
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Another related question, in trying to remove the fan box i am having problem with a bolt.
There are two bolts on the top of the unit that secure it to the frame of the dash and one bolt that secures the base of the unit to the tunnel over the transmission and drive shaft via an L bracket. The problem is that the bottom bolt, the one going though the L bracket and the tunnel appears to have a nut on the other side of it that is spinning with the bolt, and so wont loosen up. Any ideas on how to get at this?
The L bracket gets in the way of removal of the fan box, and apparently must be removed.
Thanks for the ideas
Pete
280 Sl
Michigan, USA
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Pete,
I was able to get a small locking plier on the nut by reaching around and above the transmission, ('64 4-speed) but I can't guarantee that will work on yours (?automatic). And, truth be known, I could not reverse the process when I reinstalled, so there is a self-threading stainless screw in there now. Please don't tell Pebble Beach on me.
g
'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon
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Bummer, well ok, thank you for the info. At least i know what i am up against.
Pete
quote:
Originally posted by enochbell
Pete,
I was able to get a small locking plier on the nut by reaching around and above the transmission, ('64 4-speed) but I can't guarantee that will work on yours (?automatic). And, truth be known, I could not reverse the process when I reinstalled, so there is a self-threading stainless screw in there now. Please don't tell Pebble Beach on me.
g
'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon
280 Sl
Michigan, USA
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quote:
The problem is that the bottom bolt, the one going though the L bracket and the tunnel appears to have a nut on the other side of it that is spinning with the bolt, and so wont loosen up. Any ideas on how to get at this?
I used a long open ended wrench thru the front tunnel aperture.
Put some masking tape on one of the open jaws of the wrench so that the nut can engage tightly and not fall off.
When reinstalling, I put the bolt back from below (stuck on the wrench) and the nut in the cab.
naj
68 280SL
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Yes an excellent solution. I just discovered this port, and used it to remove the nut in question. It had been painted over.
Thanks, pete
quote:
Originally posted by naj
quote:
The problem is that the bottom bolt, the one going though the L bracket and the tunnel appears to have a nut on the other side of it that is spinning with the bolt, and so wont loosen up. Any ideas on how to get at this?
I used a long open ended wrench thru the front tunnel aperture.
Put some masking tape on one of the open jaws of the wrench so that the nut can engage tightly and not fall off.
When reinstalling, I put the bolt back from below (stuck on the wrench) and the nut in the cab.
naj
68 280SL
280 Sl
Michigan, USA
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any advice on a good way to replace the foam seals on these parts. All are deteriorated completely. Through SLS i see the seals for the defroster nozzle, but thats all.
Pete
280 Sl
Michigan, USA
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An Update..
I thought i would let you all know how it is going so far. I have just removed the old heater core. It was not as bad to get out of there as i figured. Hans was dead on however when he indicated there would ultimatly be other problems. When i began to remove the core it became evidant that the brackets on both sides of the old core had broken off, and the core was only being held inplace by the inlet and outlet tubes. As well there was a small leek that had been driping coolent into the heater fan box.
I am very glad i got the thing out of there. Over the next several days i'll be reassembling the new parts. Damm thing will be all new by the time i am done.
P
quote:
Originally posted by hkollan
Hi all,
If this problem is "solved" by merely removing the loose piece,
sooner or later the welding on the tube(s) from the heater core going through the firewall will break off.
Hans
'71 '70 '68 280 SL
280 Sl
Michigan, USA
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While your in that area I recommend you clean and lubricate the wiper spindles.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Thanks for the advice. I had planned to look at other things, but the wiper assembly didnt cross my mind, i'll add it to the list.
The more i dig, the more i find!
What would you lubricate the unions of those wiper spindles with. And for that matter what exactly do you mean by spindles? The connecting joints? the drive rod comming from the wiper motor?
P
quote:
Originally posted by jeffc280sl
While your in that area I recommend you clean and lubricate the wiper spindles.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
280 Sl
Michigan, USA
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Here is a pic to give you some help. The wiper blade shaft will bind over time with excessive use and without lubrication. If I remeber correctly there is a c clip which holds the shaft in place. It can be accessed by removing the wiper arm. Once the clip is removed the wiper shaft can be removed from the underside of the dash, cleaned, lubricated and reinstalled. The job is easy to do and a nightmare if your wipers seize. You already know how much work is needed to get to this area.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) spindle.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/jeffc280sl/200762610536_spindle.jpg)
24.3 KB
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Thank You, that helps a lot. I'll get at it this week i hope.
P
quote:
Originally posted by jeffc280sl
Here is a pic to give you some help. The wiper blade shaft will bind over time with excessive use and without lubrication. If I remeber correctly there is a c clip which holds the shaft in place. It can be accessed by removing the wiper arm. Once the clip is removed the wiper shaft can be removed from the underside of the dash, cleaned, lubricated and reinstalled. The job is easy to do and a nightmare if your wipers seize. You already know how much work is needed to get to this area.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) spindle.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/jeffc280sl/200762610536_spindle.jpg)
24.3 KB
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
280 Sl
Michigan, USA
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Yet another question, how are the side vents removed? These are the rotatable vents near the doors on each side.
I see a bolt or two on the duct work in the back, but there appears to be one on the inside of the duct directly above the louvers. Do i need to remove that? and if so how?
P
280 Sl
Michigan, USA
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The side vents have two or three pins on the back side which fit into friction fittings in the dashboard. Be very carefull removing them because you can snap off the pins. Do a search and you can probably find more info.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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One of these pins seems to be corroded or otherwise stuck into the friction fitting. it will not release.
quote:
Originally posted by jeffc280sl
The side vents have two or three pins on the back side which fit into friction fittings in the dashboard. Be very carefull removing them because you can snap off the pins. Do a search and you can probably find more info.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
280 Sl
Michigan, USA
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Sorry to hear about the stuck pin. The only thing I can suggest is to wiggle the vent and try to gently pry it free from the dash. Maybe someone else on this site can help with a suggestion.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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I tried WD40, a gentle amount of heat, and incessant prying. All to no avail. I'm off to the hardware store to get some PB Blaster, perhaps that will work better.
P
quote:
Originally posted by jeffc280sl
Sorry to hear about the stuck pin. The only thing I can suggest is to wiggle the vent and try to gently pry it free from the dash. Maybe someone else on this site can help with a suggestion.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
280 Sl
Michigan, USA
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The PB Blaster is not going to do you any good on this job.
I just removed my chrome vents in the past week, so it is fresh in my mind. I agree it is a pain to remove them. They were mounted using a method that makes them easy to put in place but difficult to remove without breaking something. First, each is held by two pins, and these pins pass through circular clips that snap into the holes in the dash metal. (If you are familiar with the "Chinese finger trap", it works like that.) In addition to the pins, a small part on the bottom overhangs, thus clipping the vent piece to the dash metal. Be careful prising off the chrome pieces, as that can break the posts and scratch and bend the dash metal.
What worked for me was to use a hammer and gently tap outwards on the backs of the pins. Of course, my dash is all disassembled for painting, so I had room to manouever the hammer. I put some small visegrips on the springy clips and tried to wiggle them off but that didn't work. What worked was the hammer, and I ended up not breaking any pins.
Once the chrome part is pretty loose, you can prise it the rest of the way off, from the front, with a screwdriver, being careful to only prise near the pins. If you are not going to paint your dash, you should protect the paint.
Now, I was unable to get the left chrome piece out because the dash padding overhung it. I had to remove this smallish dash piece. It is held in place with three screws. Two are exposed, and are very close to the windshield rubber. The third is hidden below and to the left under a piece of dash vinyl that is glued on. It may be that you can simply unscrew this screw and then bend the dash piece upwards enough to remove the chrome piece.
There is a box that carries air to each vent, and the box is affixed with two screws, exposed underneath and visible once you are uncomfortably on your back on the floor of the car. You must remove these boxes in order to reach the pins. Also, the black lever that opens or blocks air through the vents is connected to a flap in the box, and comes out with the box. I had to violently twist the left box in order to turn the lever 90 degrees so as to slip it through the slot in the chrome piece. Thankfully, nothing broke.
After you get the pins out of their clips, you need to slightly raise the vent piece to get the overhanging clip off the dash metal.
I think if you do a search on this site, you will find a picture somewhere of what I am talking about.
I think I will cut threads on the pins and remount them with nuts. I generally end up doing things twice (or thrice), and this will help the next time.
I hope this makes sense to you.
Joe
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Yes it does joe, thanks. I have spent more time on the side vents than on the removal of the rest of the dash and heater core. That turned out to be a relatively straight forward process after discovering how to remove the bottom blower bracket.
I believe someone said this was not for the faint of heart. i believe that to be a true statement.
The new core is back in, and the blower housing has been cleaned, re-foamed, and reinstalled. the wipers have been well and truly lubricated. the hood fresh air vent has been re-rubber sealed, a new filter and new dampers installed, and the whole lot reassembled. Perhaps tomorrow i'll get the rest of the dash reassembled with the new levers and bulbs, new lighter and refinished wood.
It's been a long day on my back.
P
quote:
Originally posted by Joe
The PB Blaster is not going to do you any good on this job.
I just removed my chrome vents in the past week, so it is fresh in my mind. I agree it is a pain to remove them. They were mounted using a method that makes them easy to put in place but difficult to remove without breaking something. First, each is held by two pins, and these pins pass through circular clips that snap into the holes in the dash metal. (If you are familiar with the "Chinese finger trap", it works like that.) In addition to the pins, a small part on the bottom overhangs, thus clipping the vent piece to the dash metal. Be careful prising off the chrome pieces, as that can break the posts and scratch and bend the dash metal.
What worked for me was to use a hammer and gently tap outwards on the backs of the pins. Of course, my dash is all disassembled for painting, so I had room to manouever the hammer. I put some small visegrips on the springy clips and tried to wiggle them off but that didn't work. What worked was the hammer, and I ended up not breaking any pins.
Once the chrome part is pretty loose, you can prise it the rest of the way off, from the front, with a screwdriver, being careful to only prise near the pins. If you are not going to paint your dash, you should protect the paint.
Now, I was unable to get the left chrome piece out because the dash padding overhung it. I had to remove this smallish dash piece. It is held in place with three screws. Two are exposed, and are very close to the windshield rubber. The third is hidden below and to the left under a piece of dash vinyl that is glued on. It may be that you can simply unscrew this screw and then bend the dash piece upwards enough to remove the chrome piece.
There is a box that carries air to each vent, and the box is affixed with two screws, exposed underneath and visible once you are uncomfortably on your back on the floor of the car. You must remove these boxes in order to reach the pins. Also, the black lever that opens or blocks air through the vents is connected to a flap in the box, and comes out with the box. I had to violently twist the left box in order to turn the lever 90 degrees so as to slip it through the slot in the chrome piece. Thankfully, nothing broke.
After you get the pins out of their clips, you need to slightly raise the vent piece to get the overhanging clip off the dash metal.
I think if you do a search on this site, you will find a picture somewhere of what I am talking about.
I think I will cut threads on the pins and remount them with nuts. I generally end up doing things twice (or thrice), and this will help the next time.
I hope this makes sense to you.
Joe
280 Sl
Michigan, USA