Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rolf on May 08, 2007, 13:38:43
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I went on a 300 mile trip. The car ran fine for the first leg, 150 miles. On the way back, I got about 16, miles from home and hit some traffic. As I slowed down, I heard a sound almost like something was hitting the fan blade. I pulled over to the shoulder and the car started to run rough. I popped the hood and found nothing hitting anything. I had my son crank the car over, without the coil wire connected and heard and saw nothing hitting anywhere. I then started the car and it was hard starting and only started after giving about half throttle. After the car started it acted as though it was running on less than six cyclinders. As the revs increased, the car ran a lil better, no unusal noises could be heard. I got the car home and checked the plugs. They were all carbonized and 3 were very wet. I read some of the threads here and decided to change the plugs, points, rotor and condenser. All to no avail.I gapped the points and plugs according to the specs. I found on the threads along with timing The car starts but runs extremely rough. It does get up to speed on the highway, about 65/70 MPH. I have to keep my foot on the accerator when stopping or it will stall. The plugs, points, rotor, and condenser were changed about 1,000 miles ago. The car was running well when this occurred out of the blue. I have since looked over the car to make sure all the wires, tubing and hoses where still connected. I found nothing. I am still hoping it's an ignition promblem as opposed to a fuel one. The only thing different from the ride down was I got 7 gallons of gas before the return trip home and drove about 134 miles before the problem occurred, Sunoco 93. I syphoned some of the fuel from the bottom of the tank and let it sit to see if it would separate, it didn't. The car does not back fire. The plugs that were in the were Bosch WR9DC. I replaced them with Bosch W8DC.
Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS
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Hello Rolf,
Check the plug wires with an ohm meter. Next remove the plugs and get a compression reading.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Hello Joe,
Would something like this happen all of a sudden? There was no indication of this situation. It ran like a top before.
Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS
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Rolf, Correct oil level in FI pump? Crud in fuel tank blocking make up around the electric pump return line? 'Loud Sound' only heard once?
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I siphoned out some gas from the bottom of the tank to see if there was any water or caustic from getting gas the last time. There was no settling of the gas. it was crystal clear. I have run the tank almost dry several times with no problem. The sound was like something hitting the fan blades and only lasted a couple of seconds. It happened when I released presure on the gas pedal. Haven't heard it since that one time. The car runs better on the highway. It shudders horribly going slow and on idle. It even stalls if I don't put pressure on the gas pedal. Haven't checked the oil in the pump.
Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS
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Hello Rolf,
Try starting the car and let it idle, pull the plug wires one at a time to see if you locate a dead cylinder. Be sure to used good insulated spark plug pliers. Otherwise you can do a quick compression check to rule out a lot of possibilities. It sounds like you may be running on five cylinders.
It still could be a very minor fuel or ignition issue. Isolating the problem will lead us to the cause.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Joe,
I pulled the wires from the plugs and the car seemed to run the same each time. As I said before, all of the plugs are carboned and 3 were extremely wet. The plugs had about 1,000 miles on them as did the points, condensor and rotor. I have not yet done a compression test as I have to locate a tester. I also checked the oil for water and water for oil. I experienced no loss of power until I slowed down to about 30 MPH. I plan on getting a tester and checking either today or tomorrow along with checking the plug wire resistance. I just don't understand that all the plugs are carboned and 3 were wet when the car was running good before. I feel as it may be something simple and overlooked.
Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS
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Cold Start Valves (inlet manifold) are notorious for leaking so could you check the CSV for leaks?
There is a small 5mm screw on the side of it.
You remove that screw and turn the ignition on without starting the engine.
If there is more than 3 drops per minute you have a leaking CSV and hence a very rich fuel mixture.
How are your engine mounts?
Have you checked the radiator for marks near the fan (maybe below the fan)?
It is possible that something was caught between them for a short time.
It happened to me in a car park.
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
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Well, I got a compression tester and did a preliminary test. The engine was cold but, I got horrible readings.
1- 110 psi
2- 125 psi
3- 95 psi
4- 120 psi
5- 110 psi
6- 0 psi
I rechecked 6 and still the same, zero psi. I am going to redo the test tomorrow and see if there are any changes. I don't like number 6 cylinder at all. I'm still hoping it's not something to serious.
Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS
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Hello Rolf,
I would remove the valve cover and check for anything strange over #6 cylinder.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Hello Joe,
How come it seems you are on whenever I am? Are you watching me? I plan on doing that either tomorrow or Fri. I'm hoping it's something to do with the valves. I'm also going to squirt some oil into the cylinders and see if that makes a difference. Of course I shall test again with a warm engine. Aren't the readings lower then they should be?
Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS
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I took the valve cover off and found nothing unusual underneath. No bits of metal or anything out of place. The one thing I did find was I cannot get a feeler gauge between the rocker arm and the cam lobe. I used a .003" (0.0762 mm) feeler. Could it be possible that the intake valve is not seating all the way thus causing the zero reading on the compression test?
Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS
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Hello Rolf,
Adjust the valves on that cylinder and re-check the compression. If the cylinder remains at no compression the problem should become obvious soon.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Joe,
I tried to loosen the nut to adjust that valve today. No way would it loosen. I tried using a combination wrench, I don't have that adaptor for valve adjusting. I read thru the threads again and found one about removing the arm so one can get a socket on the nut. I'm going to try that tomorrow. I checked all the other valves and found them to be a lil loose. I still feel something isn't right for the readings to be so wide spread but then, I checked them cold.I also saw a thread about compressing the springs with a bar or screwdriver but, am not too sure where to pry.
Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS
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Rolf, You need 'Glennard's Handy Dandy valve spring compressor #1'. It compresses the spring while the cam shaft is still mounted. 'Compressor #2' compresses when the cam shaft is off. 1 and 2 make the job a whole lot easier and they press on both sides of the keeper. Screw drivers tend to push on only one side - maybe bend the stems. If the valve wasn't seating, you probably have burnt valves. Check them all - 153624.
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Rolf, While the valve cover is off, check the oil distribution pipe for free flow thru all the lube holes- one for each valve and the bearing pedestals and whatever.
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Glen,
I did check all the oil ports and the oil flows good. i just have to get that nut loose and see if it makes a difference. There were no rub marks on any of the surfaces either. When the lobe of the cam is opposite the valve, the valve is really tight, can't shake it or get a feeler under it. I also looked and looked throught the threads for a pic of your handy dandy tool and came up empty handed. I know I think I saw it but, it escapes me now. Could you possibly direct me in the right direction?
Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS
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Drawing from my vast lack of knowledge about the SL motor how about this:
Prior to reading the other posts I was already thinking valve problem. It goes with your symptoms of wet plugs, running rough, and low/no compression.
How is your timing chain play/slackness.
Here's a theory: you are running engine at high revs and back suddenly for traffic...causing some timing chain slap which causes a valve crash or jacked up cam timing from the chain skipping a tooth or two when it slapped.
Or just a messed up valve/ one that isn't seating properly
1967 230SL Havana Brown Auto with A/C
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Rolf
The easiest way i have found to take the rocker arms out is to insert the short end of a 5mm Allen wrinch into the oil hole above the ball stud then use the long end of the wrench and use as a handle to lift the rocker up and off to the side of the ball stud, then it will pull out from the side.
With a reading of 0 compression it is unlikely to come back with a valve adjustment, all you will need to do is to back off the ball stud to where there is some clearance then reinstall the rocker and recheck the compression.
A valve timing colision is not likely, to have been the cause, on these motors the valves are at 90deg to the piston top, so unlike most other cars, the valve wont bend, the camshaft towers and or the cam usualy end up breaking off. (personal experience)
My gut feelings on what is happening here, is that you have a burnt exaust valve or a blown head gasket. Most likely you will be removing the cylinder head in the near future.
Al
66 230sl
Tour de Cure 50km unicycle ride to benefit Diabetes research.
http://main.diabetes.org/site/TR?pg=personal&fr_id=4372&px=2737950
Click link to sponsor my ride on May 20th.
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Thank you ... The intake valve on number 6 is staying open, I thnk. There is no clearance at all, compression zero. Number 3 is low on compression, 95 psi. I am under the belief that the compression should be around 150 or so. I would like to free up the nut on number 6 intake and see if it makes a difference when I get clearance there. After that, I want to bring the car to operating temp and check the compression again. I did check it the first time cold. I am still baffled about the noise I heard for that couple of seconds. I did check all around the fan blade,radiator and any other place that type of noise could have com from, and found nothing amiss. if it is a blown gasket, that head is cominf off real soon, like tomorrow or Sunday.
Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS
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You'll have to take the head off regardless of it being a burnt valve or bad head gasket and more importantly to satisfy the curiousity of the peanut gallery. Mainly I would want to take the head off to check for any reason for that noise.
1967 230SL Havana Brown Auto with A/C
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Miss Firing, wasn't she the AC spark plug girl on the trophy podium at Pamona Dragway? I think she's married to John Force now.
Back on topic here, the "sounds like something hitting the fan blades" could be the sound of a failing (leaky) water pump.
Were you watching the engine temp when the car was acting up?
Was the coolant level low?
Does the oil have a milky grey color?
Is there more oil in the crankcase than there used to be?
Just a short run with low coolant and the temp up around the 250deg mark will make the head gasket let go. And hopefully the answer to question 2,3 &4 are no.
Al
66 230sl
Tour de Cure 50km unicycle ride to benefit Diabetes research.
http://main.diabetes.org/site/TR?pg=personal&fr_id=4372&px=2737950
Click link to sponsor my ride on May 20th.
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Update on, as Al says, Miss Firing. As soon as the car started acting up I kept an eye on the temp gauge. It stayed on 180 the rest of the trip home. I got the rocker off using an allen wrench as Al said to. Thank you Al, it took me about 3 mins to remove. I checked the compression on the #6 cylinder again and it now reads a whopping 25 psi. I squirted some motor oil down the cylinder and still got the magic number 25. I had checked the oil for water and water for oil. All of the liquids were where they were suppose to be. Jerry, I only heard the noise for approxiamately 3 seconds and have not heard it since. Bob, I did check the CVS and found no leakage. The engine mounts are doing their job perfectly and no leaks, dents or bumps in the radiator nor the cooling lines. Joe, I did all the things you suggested to no avail, hopig it would be a quick fix. Since I really have nothing else to do, I am going to remove the head over this weekend or Monday. There is no scoring on the camshaft. The oil is flowly freely to it. The timing chain is nice and "tight" but not too tight. The car does not blow smoke at all. I am hoping it just needs a valve job. We shall see.I have been out of work since last September with a bad back so, this will fill up my idle time. I thank all tht have responded so far, for their help and guidance. I will keep you posted as to the problem and fix.
Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS
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Hello Rolf,
It's always best to look at the simple and inexpensive solutions first. Now that the compression test has isolated the problem you will need to get into the more complex problems. If you can remove both rocker arms on number six cylinder and hook an air line up via the spark plug hole you will find out if the compression leak is in the head or bottom end. In either case the head, as you determined, will most likely need to be removed.
Possible problems you may find are, loose valve guide in the head, loose valve seat in the head, or possibly a broken piston ring. A broken or burnt valve could be an issue. Blown head gaskets, do not usually make noise. Remote possibilities may be something getting sucked into the engine and bending a valve. A jumped timing chain usually will cause the camshaft to break without bending a valve.
Removal of the cyl head is not that difficult unless you have factory AC.make sure you have a 10mm allen tool for the head bolts. A few tips will save you hours of work so keep in touch!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Joe,
I do not hear the noise any longer, only heard it for a second or two.It sounded as though something hit the fan. It seems that more than one cylinder is involved. All the plugs had lots of carbon and 3 were wet, real wet. It seems that the head will come off, whether it's the valves or gasket. I am going to double check the timing chain position before I remove the head. It seems to have not jumped a tooth but, one never knows.
Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS
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Rolf, Before you take the head off(a BIG undertaking for a first timer), 1)adjust all valves- 0.003" on intakes and 0.004" on exhaust. 2)make sure crank at TDC corresponds to cam shaft at mark(#1 lobes in a V) and rotor on #1. Check to make sure the oil filter housing has the cylindrical seal on the center stub. If this has been missing, you have had no oil filtration and #6 rings may be tight. Then do a "5 minute Motor Flush". This might loosen the rings. Hope springs---
If you take the head off, remember the 2 M6 cap screws in the chain vestibule and the head bolt order of loosening.
150 lbs compression is a beautiful thing! :)
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Glennard... I checked all the items you suggested plus the flush and oil seal. I still get lousy compression readins sooooooooooo I guess the head comes off.
quote:
Originally posted by glennard
Rolf, Before you take the head off(a BIG undertaking for a first timer), 1)adjust all valves- 0.003" on intakes and 0.004" on exhaust. 2)make sure crank at TDC corresponds to cam shaft at mark(#1 lobes in a V) and rotor on #1. Check to make sure the oil filter housing has the cylindrical seal on the center stub. If this has been missing, you have had no oil filtration and #6 rings may be tight. Then do a "5 minute Motor Flush". This might loosen the rings. Hope springs---
If you take the head off, remember the 2 M6 cap screws in the chain vestibule and the head bolt order of loosening.
150 lbs compression is a beautiful thing! :)
Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS
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Rolf, Sorry to hear it didn't work. Just a little 30 minute detour on the slim chance it might work. Check with JA on what other diagnostic test to run-(for guides, seals, chain, etc.) before you lift the head.
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Sounds like tight valve rockers and now one or more are probably burned out from lack of adjustment. Set valves at .003 intake and .007 exhaust.
Dan Caron's
SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
slbarn.mbz.org
1 877 661 6061
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Dan,
The number 6 intake valve was tight, compression was zero. I couldn't get any feeler gauge thru it. I adjusted to .003" and now get 25 psi. The compression does not increase after squirting oil in the cyliner. My guess as your educated one is valves.
Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS
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Rolf, Whoops-dislexic moment. 0.003" om inlet - add 0.004" for 0.007 on exhaust. Some do 0.008 on exhaust. On a well running engine you can balance an old Jefferson nickel on the oil cap - ah, a Perfect Pagoda Pit-a-Pat!
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Hello Rolf,
I agree with Dan, sounds like a valve problem. If you want to isolate the problem do this test: Remove both rocker arms over the bad #6 cylinder. Blow air into #6 cylinder. Listen for air leaking past the intake valve by opening the throttle valve and listening with a hose. Do the same at the exhaust tail pipe.
Some compression guages come with a hose which can be hooked up to shop air at one end and the spark plug hole at the other for performing such a test.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Update on Miss Firing... I did what you suggested Joe and removed both rocker arms from the #6 cylinder and blew air through the intake. I heard air rushing through the intake. I took another look at the #6 valves and springs and found the intake spring higher than the rest. After further investigation, I found the keeper (valve collet) completely destroyed. Looked as if someone had chewed it but good. I also found excessive wear on the rotocap and the shim was distorted. After removing both the intake and exhaust rocker arms,I raised the intake valve, it seemed to be resting on the head. I blew more air into the intake and it seemed to hold. I have ordered the necessary parts and after installation, I will do another compression test. I got between 145 and 155 psi on all cylinders except the #6, when I did the compression test with the motor at operating temp (180 dgrees F.)
Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS
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MB gods are with you! The keepers/collet can get out of place with the 'screw driver' push. Are the valve stems straight? Are collet grooves OK? Guides? seals? springs? It is a miracle if the head doesn't have to be lifted. JA to the rescue again!
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The springs are ok as are the grooves and valve stems. It seems when the keepers were eaten, by some unknown alien, the valve stayed right there. It might have been riding on the piston. It seems the only thing that saved further damage is the way the valves are in correlation to the pistons. I just needed new keepers, the rotocap and shim for that piston. I will know if further work is needed after I assemble it all and blow some air down the cylinder and finally, if the air holds, a compression test. Thank You Joe. kiss kiss
Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS
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Hello Rolf,
Glad you have pin pointed the problem area. I fear that a valve guide may have come loose in the head when the engine was hot (the mysterious noise you heard). This condition could release the keepers and raise havoc while the engine was running. The condition is commonly known as "dropping a valve".
When the engine cooled the valve guide could have tightened up once again. It sounds like you must remove the valve retainers and springs. Caution, caution the valve will drop into the cylinder and may not be retrievable if you are not very careful. Compressed air is usually used to hold the valve closed and from dropping in the cylinder during these kind of procedures. This is done during valve seal replacement. I cannot understand what is holding the vlave up if the keepers are gone? unless something is bent? Anyway applying compressed air to the cylinders will send the piston to BDC (bottom dead center) and the valve will be able to drop completely into the cylinder, so be careful. Moving the piston to the top and not using compressed air will hold an intake valve almost completely up safely as it rests on the piston top. However exhaust valves will still fall about an inch even with the piston at the top.
Loose keepers may get washed back under the rear cam tower where there is a large oil drain passage leading directly back to the oil pan below. If the keepers have gone this route they may harmlessly end up in the oil pan. You may see them again at some oil change in the future!
Anyway, while the springs and such are off, check the valve guide to make sure it is tight in the head. If all seems ok, re-assemble and see how the compression does. If you are not completely familiar with any of these procedures let us know so we can help guide you.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Its ounds indeed like it dropped a valve, and the noise you heard was probably the valve being hit by the piston, a quick "machine gun fire" sound.
As Joe says there may be other damage to the valve seat or valve itself. Measure the height on the closed valve against another and also the height of the guide.
When I did my rebuild I discovered several loose guides, the engine smoked but performed fine !
Best of luck !
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
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Hello All,
It seems the valve didn't drop all the way because a piece of the keeper was sorta jammed keeping the valve from falling completely. I was lucky I guess for that. The guides do not seem to be loose. I'll see about the valves after I blow air down the spark plug hole and then, if everything seems ok, do another compression test. I have my fingers and toes crossed for when I get to that point. I removed the valve retainers and springs with the piston up and tied the valve off with thin tie wrap around the indentation on the valve stem. I will post more as the plot thickens or comes to a conclusion. Thank you all for your help and guidance.
Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS
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Hello Rolf,
Installing the valve keepers will be a real difficult job without a special tool (spring compressor). At least the intake is easier to hook up than an exhaust valve. If you have problems getting any of the bits and pieces you need let me know.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Try the 1" box stock for the spring compressor. A notch at one end to fit around the ball stud and a cut out at the valve for a magnet to lift out the keeper. The BBB, Haynes, Clymer, Chilton - one of them has a picture. Still have to hold the valve up.
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What attachment do you use to apply air pressure to the cylinder while tring to replace the valve seals? Is there an easy way to remove the valve retainer without removing the head? And finally is there anything special that is needed to remove and replace the valve seal.
From Joe
"When the engine cooled the valve guide could have tightened up once again. It sounds like you must remove the valve retainers and springs. Caution, caution the valve will drop into the cylinder and may not be retrievable if you are not very careful. Compressed air is usually used to hold the valve closed and from dropping in the cylinder during these kind of procedures. This is done during valve seal replacement. Anyway applying compressed air to the cylinders will send the piston to BDC (bottom dead center) and the valve will be able to drop completely into the cylinder, so be careful. Moving the piston to the top and not using compressed air will hold an intake valve almost completely up safely as it rests on the piston top. However exhaust valves will still fall about an inch even with the piston at the top."
Bruce; 268Blaugrun(green) 1970 280SL; IL
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Hello Bruce,
I will get some photos of the tools and post them with information soon!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Hello All,
Update on Miss Firing. I received the parts and installed them. I blew some air into #6 cylinder and it held. I warmed up the car to operating temp and did a compression test. I got from 145 psi to 155 psi in all the cylinders. I am sure glad I didn't have to remove the head. It seems that all the trouble was in the top end. I took the car for a ride and it performed marvelously. Thank you for all your help.
Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS
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Very impressive bit of troubleshooting Rolf. I'd say you are really lucky to be so mechanically inclined. I think a lot of us would have received the ol' "yep, engine's shot -- you need a rebuild..." not because our mechanics are inept or greedy -- but because of the time involved to explore...
James
63 230SL
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James,
Let us not forget the ones who gave me reliable advise. I have worked on motors before but it was some time ago and nothing as this motor. I like simple ones such as my bike. Thank you all again.
Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS
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Rolf, How about a short recap? What failed? What parts were replaced? Any ideas why? Adjustments afterwards? Advice? Thanx
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Recap on Miss Firing
The keeper was all chewed up. Possibly from not being installed correctly or a possible flaw. I don't know how else it could have loosened up. The rotor cap showed signs of being rubbed and the shim was bent. It seems the rocker arm was not riding where it was supposed to be. The rotor cap was at a slight angle instead of being straight and the shim was also not sitting where it was designed to. There were no signs of wear on the valve stem, shining areas indicating rubbing. The rotor cap showed signs of wearing, around the hole to one side was really shiney. The shim was bent to a degree and unusable. I had tried to readjust the clearance between the rocker arm and cam but, no matter how much I turned it to increase the clearance, I still could not get a feeler gauge to clear. I replaced the rotor cap, shim and keepers and was able to obtain the necessary clearance between the rocker arm and cam. The groove in the valve stem were unaffected by all this, as was the valve guides. I had also asked a buddy of mine who restores classic USA cars to take a look at what had happened. He told me he had never seen anything like this before. So, I cannot say for certain what the cause was. I believe it was shoddy installation by a previous mechanic who worked on the car for a previous owner. I believe this because after I got the car, I found out the throttle linkage was installed incorrectly, among other so called repairs on the car. I haven't had the time, as of yet, to take the car out for a decent ride. I guess, when I do, that will be the true test. I have driven it around town and have not experienced any problems. I did a compression test and the readings are between 145 and 155 PSI on the cyclinders.
Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS
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Final on Miss Firing.... Fisrt off, I would like to thank all those who gave me guidance with the problem. After it did it the second time, dropped valve. It seems someone did grind the end of the valve too short and that was the cause of my problem. I did what Al said he did to one of his, so many years ago. I ground the valve side of the thrust washer at a 45 degree angle so more of it would pass through the retaining ring to ensure the washer rode on the stem and not the retaining ring. So far I have put 150 miles on the car and no problem. I know this is a "quick" fix and I shall be removing the head over the winter to properly correct the problem. New valves, springs, keepers, retaining rings and thrust washers all around plus having the head and valve seats checked. Thank you all again.
Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS
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Hey Rolf
I'm glad that I was able to help you find what turned out to ba a very obscure defect in your valve train.
For everyone else, because the correspondence between Rolf and myself were off forum. It should be mentioned that my suggestion to Rolf was that the offending valve stem may have been ground off to make more valve adjustment clearance. When the stem has been ground too short the the slotted pad that the rocker arm rests against will make contact with the valve spring cap before it makes contact with the stem. when this happens the spring pressure that holds the valve keepers in plase is loostened when the valve opens and will eventualy cause the keepers to fall out.
I suggested that he should grind some extra clearance around the outer edge of the base of the valve pad and then aply grease to the pad to make sure that the contact was against the valve stem, not the spring cap.
Al Lieffring
66 230Sl
Jones'n for a new gas tank