Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: n/a on July 17, 2006, 20:54:54
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Hey Guys;
I just read an article in Hemmings about the skyrocking prices for 190's...before I got my 280SL, I wanted a 190...bot when i look at my car, I think the lines are better. Just curious if anyone out there, given the choice, would give up their W113 for a 190?
A good looking car, but the performance must be dismal...anyone drive one? How do they perform?
R/
Joe :)
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The 190SL is the car I started on. At 22 years old it's a steep learning curve on a car that complicated.
All things are relative; 190SL's are harder to work on, most of the parts are far more costly and there's fewer good ones out there. As in all old cars there are lots of poor examples for sale.
The performance is less than 6 cylinder cars but really not that bad and their more than fast enough to hurt yourself. Properly set up, few cars from the era will handle as well. As an example, a racing 190SLR and a 300SL will lap at Lime Rock within a second or two of each other. The 300SL is much faster in the straights but the 190SLR will blow it away in the corners. People scoff at these cars but most of the time they've never driven one or at least a good one. They're about 13 seconds 0 - 60 ( in stock trim ) while a 230SL is about 11. A racing 190SL would be about 10 - 11.
Dan Caron's
SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
slbarn.mbz.org
1 877 661 6061
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Hey Dan,
Thanks for the info...but how is the exhaust note sound with only 4 cylinders rather than 6? Does a 190 sound wimpy, like some of today's Jap 4 bangers that sound like a leaf blower?
I surprised you say they are hard tpo work...I find th W113 quite a challenge...
R/
Joe
:)
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When I was young, my boss had a girlfriend and bought her a brand new black 190SL with red leather seats. I got to drive that car often and it was wonderful. Had a Jaguar XK120 at the time and the mercedes was much smoother, the suspension softer without being wobbly. Power was entirely adequate. It was a very nice car.
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Yesterday I went to a car & hot rod show. There was a 190SL with a Lexus 400LS engine. The engine is all aluminum, has dual overhead cams and produces over 300 HP with the modifications. The gearbox is a Datsun 5 speed manual, the rear axle a 3.69 positraction from a 280 sedan. The fuel tank was pushed in locally to make a room for the bigger axle. The car weighs now 2700 lbs, which is 100 lbs more than before. The front springs were not changed because the engine does not weigh more. Because of the 3 fold increase in engine power, the rear wheels can be made to spin in first, second and third, depending on the pavement. The car took Best in Class, even though I had my very original 280SL entered in the same class (Foreign cars). Attached is a picture of the engine installation.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) DSCF0223.JPG (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/theengineer/200672310356_DSCF0223.JPG)
48.85 KB
'69 280SL,Signal Red,113044-12-007537,tired engineer, West-Seattle,WA (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/theengineer/20051219121123_Drehstern.gif)
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The 190SL has a pretty nice exhaust note. It doesn't sound too bad although the engine does tend to get louder above 4,000 RPM.
As for the the modified 190SL???? Well, what can I say? It looks nice, a lot of work and thought went into this but I'm sure it's a scary car to drive. This car has drum brakes that often don't work very well and are OK when perfect. I always warn owners to think about stopping well before they would normally do in a modern car. Even if it has brake upgrades it's still not designed to handle 300 HP. No thanks!
Imagine if they spent that much time to do a nut and bolt orinial car. It would likely place at or near the top at a 190SL Group convention, but then most modified cars tend to go in that direction anyway if they're done to this level.
Dan Caron's
SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
slbarn.mbz.org
1 877 661 6061
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The Lexus powered 190SL attended the 190SL 2004 Group Convention in Sonoma CA. A very nicely done conversion.
The W113 and the 190SL are two totally different cars. Why choose when you can have both. There are a number of 190SL people also have W113s. Both Dan and I are active with the 190SL Group. In fact, Tom Hamilton, the Group President, also owns a 280SL 5-speed.
Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, 190E 2.3-16 Kompressor, MGB 5-Speed
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I would not trade my pagoda for a 190sl. I want the convenience of an automatic tranny, power steering and airconditioning. As for me these are creature comforts that make driving a car enjoyable. The 190 does not have any of these. though I really like the shape of the 190sl
Cheers,
Joel
1969 280sl auto
White exterior
Blue interior
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Tom will be here this weekend for the '' Meeting of the Clans '' event. He sold the 280SL 5 speed to a guy that's on this site. Houser, I think......
Tom has two 190SL's. A strawberry red one and a '55 190SLR that is supposed to end up at the classic centre in CA. He also has a very nice 300SL and a 280SL that I doubt he ever drives. I think he bought Clint Sadler's 190SL ( 190SL Group VP ) after he passed away last spring.
Tom has a few toys.......
Dan Caron's
SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
slbarn.mbz.org
1 877 661 6061
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I'm resurecting this thread cause - I just had to.
For several years I have been hearing rumours of a 190sl that has been sitting for some 30 years in a shed out in the boondocks. 2 weeks ago I had lunch with a couple guys and one of them said he knew where it was. Today I got a phone call asking if I am interested in going to see "the" car. Seeing that I resurected a 280SL they thought that I would be the obvious person to go and look at a 190SL. I have to take a day off work to go and see it but what an adventure.
Now would I be nuts to trade my 280SL for a 190SL that hasn't moved in 25 years (or more realistically sell several motorcycles and my MGB). After reading Dans comments above I kind of like the idea of a 190SL in my garage. Anyone bought a 190SL restoration candidate recently?
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The price of a nice 190SL has almost doubled since this thread started. Your call......
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Dan,
if the price of a nice car has doubled in 6 years, what about restoration costs? Triple? Quadruple?
What is your guess? I don't think they went down, unfortunately. >:(
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The 190SL is a lovely car and I personally don't think it's complicated but they are even more expensive than a 113 to restore.
The ride quality is astonishing if the car is a good one.
I have a restoration candidate being delivered to my place from Poland this week so will probably re-aquaint myself with the 190Sl group.
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I have a restoration candidate being delivered to my place from Poland this week so will probably re-aquaint myself with the 190Sl group.
You should, the group has a new President, Jim Villers (above) and a new Newsletter.
I have both the 190 SL and 113. They are completely different cars, the only similarity is some cosmetics. Enjoy each for what it is, not make one into the other. MB surely didn't.
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Having owned both a 190 and a 280 and a 230 my preference is the Pagoda. It was a decision I had to make some years ago. My reasoning was that the 190 whilst a great looking car, was no where as nice as a Pagoda to drive and not really suitable for every day type driving. Enjoyed the 190 very much but like my Pagoda more. Never regretted the decision to go with the Pagoda.
Garry
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Dan,
if the price of a nice car has doubled in 6 years, what about restoration costs? Triple? Quadruple?
What is your guess? I don't think they went down, unfortunately. >:(
The labour to restore the car hasn't changed that much but the price of the parts sure has. I've been working on 190SL's for 35 years and I can tell you that they're definately not easy to work on. They might look like a simple car to fix but they have a lot of things about them that make almost every repair a challenge. Sure, if you want to simply fix something it can be done easily enough but high level restoration is much more difficult. Getting everything to fit and work properly is an even bigger challenge because most of the boy panels made today really don't fit all that well.
I'm 6'3'' and I can just fit into a 190SL so it has quite a bit of room for such a small car. Handling and performance is not bad while fit and finish is what you would expect for a MB. I drove mine as an every day summer car for about 5 years and found it to be very reliable. Not great on big four lane highways but very nice on two lane back roads.
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Would love to see some pics of your 190SL :)
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Would love to see some pics of your 190SL :)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8292359@N06/sets/72157603042682741/show/
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Guys (and Gals)
When I first started looking I wanted a 190 and let's face it, it is a beautiful car and a real head turner. I could not afford one so I "settled" for a 113.
I have to say that I would not swap her for the world...but maybe for a 300sl.
Lo,.
Mark.
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Mark, put some vents in the side of a 190 and no one would know the difference, would they?
Neil
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I mentioned the 190Sl to another car friend and she replied - "what about my Porsche - don't you still want that? My husband is getting tired of it (1963 356 Coupe)"
Now this is just cruel and unnatural punishment. Up until yesterday I didn't even know that I was in the market for another sports car.
I tried telling my wife that these things just follow me home....
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/8292359@N06/sets/72157603042682741/show/
You lucky lucky man :)
I can go to bed now and dream ;)
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I mentioned the 190Sl to another car friend and she replied - "what about my Porsche - don't you still want that? My husband is getting tired of it (1963 356 Coupe)"
Now this is just cruel and unnatural punishment. Up until yesterday I didn't even know that I was in the market for another sports car.
I tried telling my wife that these things just follow me home....
That is a car you don't want to pass up, especially if you're talking about fun to drive.
And, not only is it fun, they have appreciated significantly. A 356 is in any serious collection.
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My buddies and I went and saw the 190sl I mentioned earlier - it is in much better condition than I was expecting so it will not be coming home with me anytime soon.
The owner wants to sell but the car is at his mother's house and he doesn't want to bother her so we are going to try to have it delivered to my friend's commercial premises so we can put it up on blocks, take some pictures see if we can sell it for him.
The details:
1960 190sl with a 1963 hardtop and a softop, 125 k miles, average quality repaint say 25 years ago, sat since 1993 in dry garage in a townhouse project, Looks to be all there except for a broken front turn signal lens and missing knob on one window winder (window goes up easily without it), Blaupunct Radio, clock, guages, floor mats etc. all there, Seats have been recovered with a soft leather, slight rust bubbling apparent at body seams and around headlights, fenders have spot welds on them in engine bay, twin solex carbs look new, most chrome has slight pitting all over (too much to pollish out) except grill which looks to be in excellent shape (maybe it was replaced), Floors seems to be intact and the rear tire well is starting to rust but not through yet. It would need a complete resto to get into car show quality but probably not much more than a few hours work to get it on the road.
If anyone here is interested let me know and once we get it into my buddy's shop I'll give you more info.
I'm not a car broker - we are just helping him out to sell his car.
Car is in North Vancouver Canada but should roll easily onto a car transporter or into a container for a long distance trip.
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190 SL = "Rich Man's Karmann Ghia"
Early Karmann Ghias are beautifully made......
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Wayne Carini from Chasing Classic Cars sold a 190sl at auction for $200K.
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That is not too bad, I have heard of a Pagoda change hands here in Australia for the same amount. Haven't heard of a 190SL getting that here yet.
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Hi Ian/Bonnyboy,
190SL would be nice to have, please let me know when you get more info about the car you help to sell.
Thank you, Martin
mmikula1 (at) yahoo.com
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You better hurry up and trade; a 190SL sold for $310K yesterday...
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You better hurry up and trade; a 190SL sold for $310K yesterday...
Plus 30K buyers premium! Go 190 SL!
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As a successor to the 300sl the 190sl never appealled to me in the looks department.
The W113 was a car i liked as a kid before i new what it was or any cool factor associated with it.
In fact it was'nt until i started looking for one that i realized that there were no back seats...... ::) As a 10 yr old I initiallly assumed they probably had a 911 type setup as the front seats were so far forward...
Kay
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As a successor to the 300sl the 190sl never appealled to me in the looks department.
The 190SL was produced along with the 300SL and was not it's successor. The successor to the 300SL and 190SL is the 113 Pagoda.
If you like the looks of the 300SL its hard not to like the 190SL since they look so much alike (and about a million dollars cheaper) of course they are completely different performing cars.
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I've heard complaints about the 190 SL, many legitimate, but looks has not been one of them.
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I've heard complaints about the 190 SL, many legitimate, but looks has not been one of them.
In the context of this thread all opinions are legitimate.
IMO The 2 cars are completely different and really nothing in common in terms of aesthetic design besides a badge. Ive always been a pagoda fan, in my eyes the car is perfect. Perfect lines.... utterly elegant.
If you want a rarer car..... just buy it. This car is way too cool to be a stepping stone.
Thats my opinion..... to alll the 190sl owners, its a beautiful classic car, however i just prefer the pagoda .... and thats why i never thought of upgrading.
Really this topic is flawed. Its about upgrading. Who wants to upgrade??
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but looks has not been one of them.
...from the latest issue of Hemming's Sports & Exotic, verbatim:
The 230 SL was the replacement for both the legendary 300 SL and its milque-toast look alike, the 190 SL
While perhaps not a criticism of styling, surely no round of applause either!
But beauty as we all know, is in the eyes of the beholder:
The Swiss “Automobil Revue” passed judgment on the design of the 190 SL in November 1956:
With its elegant design, the 190 SL generally is considered to be the finest creation from the house Daimler-Benz.
In “Motor Revue”, No. 16, 1955, Heinz-Ulrich Wieselmann observed:
Because of its really handsome exterior, everywhere the 190 SL appears it draws attention. With the top folded down it is downright beautiful.
I guess it all depends on what you like...while I don't perceive myself ever in the market for a 190SL, I can surely appreciate those who love and maintain these cars as sure as I do those with the same penchant for Pagodas. "It's all good", right?
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A 190 SL was my first car. I drove it every day as my main transportation for many years all year around. I never hesitated to jump in it and head out on a long trip.
Just remember that a 190SL is a full model generation older. A lot of driving improvememts were made in the model generation between the 190SL and the W113. They are different animals and different technologies. It is only natural that the newer generation should be improved, and more drivable. On the other hand it is only natural that we can appreciate the quality, hand craftmanship, simplicity and inovation of things older. Newer automobiles, naturally should be safer, faster, more fuel efficient, and generally be more drivable than previous generations.
In a 190SL a fan was not supplied for heat or defrost on the passenger side of the car. The single speed heater motor for the drivers side was barely adequate. I remember those zero degree mornings so well. The windshield wipers were marginal. It had a 20 amp generator for power. The four wheel drum brakes were the latest state of technology with the front dual cylinders. The frontr drums were aluminum finned with iron inserts, the very wide aluminum shoes were self adjusting. Most had the ATE vacuume booster. Marvelous braking, and the state of the art for drum brakes at the time. Very complex and seldom correctly fixed these days. Yes, volumes have been written on the complex carburetion. It was not really a defective design, just so complicated that few can mount them correctly and put them in good running order these days. The huge steering wheel was meant to make up for the lack of power steering in the heavy little roadster.
One generation of Mercedes eariier, (the 170's) cabin heaters were an option all together! And during the 190SL era other sports cars were much more basic with snap in side plastic windows and put-together soft top kits. The 190SL was so refined and luxurious for its time that many refused to consider them a "sports car" in those days.
The later model generation W113 is more drivable as it should be. Which is best for you? It is like comparing a Picasso to a Michelangelo !
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I've been told that 190SL's are slow. However, when we look at and compare it to other four cylinder cars from the same time period, it will show that it was at least as fast as most, faster than some, but and not as fast as all.
Those cars that were faster probably weren't as comfortable.
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No shortage of 190SLs around here at the moment. Four in the shop and one in the lot !
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I'm working on two of them as well. One is finished the other is just a bit beyond '' basket case '' level. Then there's the two 600's , the two 113's, the 450SL , the 300D .............. ::)
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Hello Dan,
The two 600s should be about a years worth of work themselve ;D Very complicated machines!
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The Grand Mercedes Benz 600 - feared by all, understood by few.
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Most fearsome is the cost of parts.......Last time I checked a water pump was over 3K !
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3k likely a small sum compared to this....
(http://www.wreckedexotics.com/300sl/300sl_20060520_003.jpg)
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I imagine the Ford truck owner's insurance is going to skyrocket!
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I imagine the Ford truck owner's insurance is going to skyrocket!
You're assuming it's his fault?
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http://www.wreckedexotics.com/300sl/300sl_20060520_004.shtml
Assuming the story is correct...
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Not good.
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Washington State is not a "no fault" state; so, for certain the MB owner or his/her insurance company will seek financial redress from either the City of Seattle (article said it was their truck) the driver or everyone remotely connected...gotta love the tort system. For sure there will be some eye opening repair expenses! :o
Don't you hate when this happens??
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so it was a convertible Gullwing then? :o :o
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JamesL, Re; Your post on the truck hitting the Benz
Did you all read the article ... the truck had a sign on it's side it read "Impact Landscaping" ... impact indeed LOL
I once came back from the US driving toward the border on a country road in a rented car from AVIS and got hit by a dear jumping in front of the car and damaging the front end. When I arrived at the next town I called the Sheriff to tell him about the incident and for him to have wild life look after the deer. He pointed to the front licence plate that read "AVIS we Try Harder" and he started to laugh out loud! Glad I took full insurance coverage, just handed the keys to the lady at the airport in Winnipeg, Manitoba and said "sorry got hit by a dear"