Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: 69280sl on April 17, 2006, 15:14:46
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While I waited to see the master mechanic at the shop that is rebuilding my auto trans, I thumbed thru a few of the older magazines, including a 1992 STAR. There were lots of for sale ads for pagodas, not surprising. What was surprising is that the range of prices, from project cars to excellant (as described) cars is about the same as today.
Hope the next 14 years are more gratifying than the last 14.
Gus
68 280sl, signal red
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Prices are what buyers are willing to pay. Some of us hate to part with a coin and keep looking for those desperate or ignorant enough to sell low. Others go to auctions and spend indecent amounts of money for cars that are only worth the excitment of bidding.
The prices of all collectible cars have risen substantially in the last couple of years along with house prices. We are starting to see a plateau in housing, I wonder when we'll start to see sellers at Barret-Jackson losing money on their purcahses of the last two years.
Meanwhile, the Robb Report said in 2005 that the Pagoda would double in value in ten years.
Still, I can't put a value on the grin on my face when I drive it. 8)
Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe
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Gus -- I guess we all understand the law of supply & demand. But I agree with you. I clearly recall years ago seeing prices that might not be terribly dissimilar from what we can see today.
Now this is going a long way back, but I bought my 280SL 20 years ago...Yet I can look in a current issue of the SL Market Letter and see plenty of cars for about what I paid back then. And I'm comfortable that I wasn't ripped off because I shopped around for a couple of years before buying.
If our home or getaway place, or even a pitiful old US savings bond hadn't clearly increased in value over a 20 year period I wouldn't feel great about it. I did read a recent SL Market Letter recently, though, where John Olson projected the W113 will be the best appreciating Mercedes through 2010 (100%). I for one sure hope he's right.
Tom in Boise
'71 280SL 4-spd, signal red w/lt. tan interior, restored/enhanced
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At the Techno Classica event last week in Essen, Pagodas were priced at about 25-30% above the year before. The two Classic-center restored cars for sale at the Daimler-Chrysler stand, at EUR 130K and EUR 150K, obviously being at the top of the range. I believe they both sold ...
Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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I would also submit that the condition of the "average" SL has increasingly slid downward over the years. I'm guessing the "garden variety" $15K 280 SL is uniformly weak these days, whereas there was a good chance that a $15K car back in the early 90s was actually a nice SL.
The bottom line is that good cars command more money than ever these days. And as I am currently Pagoda-less, I'm not sure whether this fact makes me happy or sad....
Douglas Kim
New York
USA
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Aha. One of my favourite topics. In my view the pagodas are seriously undervalued. I have said this before and I'm repeating myself here: Look at the E-type series I; half the price in the 60'ies, almost double the price today. They are fast flat out, but the quality can't be compared with the pagodas. Approximately the same number of them were made so it can't be for rarity.
I agree with priceless-grin-on-your-face thing when you drive them and most of the time also when you repair them. No doubt they are a joy!!!
However, (and here I repeat myself again) I think we as a group should be able to influence things to make prices go up. That's by writing about them, talking about them and best of all driving our cars. However, I also think that if we posted a price guide on this page one could refer to it and say "look this is what the expert says" There could be definitions of "average" or "concourse", even pictures, and a price guide for each class. This could be made continent dependent.
Let's keep the debate going.
"Summer's here and the time is right for Racing in the Streets" Springsteen.
'67 250 SL Papyrus White 113043-10-000023
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quote:
Originally posted by mulrik
Aha. One of my favourite topics. In my view the pagodas are seriously undervalued. I have said this before and I'm repeating myself here: Look at the E-type series I; half the price in the 60'ies, almost double the price today. They are fast flat out, but the quality can't be compared with the pagodas. Approximately the same number of them were made so it can't be for rarity.
I agree with priceless-grin-on-your-face thing when you drive them and most of the time also when you repair them. No doubt they are a joy!!!
However, (and here I repeat myself again) I think we as a group should be able to influence things to make prices go up. That's by writing about them, talking about them and best of all driving our cars. However, I also think that if we posted a price guide on this page one could refer to it and say "look this is what the expert says" There could be definitions of "average" or "concourse", even pictures, and a price guide for each class. This could be made continent dependent.
Let's keep the debate going.
"Summer's here and the time is right for Racing in the Streets" Springsteen.
'67 250 SL Papyrus White 113043-10-000023
Before you start doing that, please could you wait until I've purchased mine? :D
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Whateve they are worth, I feel that mine is priceless :) especially when someone comes up to me and admires my pagoda. Just like Ray, the feeling is priceless.
Cheers,
joel
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I have a recent copy of the SL Market Letter, dated Nov. 21, 2005, laying here.
I did a quick little review of the 280SLs listed for sale in that recent issue. Note that all of these 280SL were located in the U.S:
A) Total number of 280SLs listed: 31 cars
B) Total of combined list prices: $758,800
C) Average list price: $24,468
D) Number of 280SLs at or below $15K: 5 cars
E) Number of 280SLs at or above $30K: 5 cars
F) Lowest priced 280SL: $11,500
G) Highest priced 280SL: $38,000
I think there is a newer copy of the SL Market Letter out, but I seem to misplaced mine. I’d be surprised (pleasantly!) though if there is a substantial increase from 5 months ago.
BTW, when I purchased my 280SL (April 1985) it carried a list price of $20.5K. I negotiated it down by a whopping $1K, but was then almost immediately offered $22K by someone else who had also been looking at it.
Hmmm… My car sold new in late 1970 for less than $10K. In 1985 I was offered $22K for it, and without having put in a singe penny for improvements. More than double in value during it’s first 15 years of life. And now in Nov. 2005, another 21 years later, the average price in the SL Market Letter for a 280SL is $24K.
Yes, I’d say we might want to consider doing something to influence the perceived values of the W113. If John Olson still believes the cars will be up 100% by 2010 (not sure what his base year was in that forecast), which is just 4 years hence, and The Robb Report says 100% in 10 years, then this owner finds Olson’s projection more pleasing…even though I’ll never sell the car.
Tom in Boise
'71 280SL 4-spd, signal red w/lt. tan interior, restored/enhanced
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Why are we complaining? Everyone should be so luckey as us. Here's why:
•Parts are easy to find, we don't get the hording,
•People who own these cars love them, not ones interested in the investment potential which inflates prices beyond reason and invites unscrupulous people.
•We get the uniqueness of product without the heavy price.
•We get a better owner community. We don't have the shysters and frauds who are here for the sole purpose of turning a dollar.
Mike in Detroit
230sl silver/red
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I’ve been reading messages for past year. This my first post.
I like the W113 very much to. I also hope prices go down because it is a luxury car I might can afford soon. A rich mans car, even though I am not rich. Noboy here could ever buy a new SL. If Pagoda price stays down and parts don’t cost much then soon I hope to buy a good one. I will fix it up myself then drive it then sell it and make money. Then if price stays down maybe do again.
I agree with your message.
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Webster
Why are we complaining? Everyone should be so luckey as us. Here's why:
•Parts are easy to find, we don't get the hording,
•People who own these cars love them, not ones interested in the investment potential which inflates prices beyond reason and invites unscrupulous people.
•We get the uniqueness of product without the heavy price.
•We get a better owner community. We don't have the shysters and frauds who are here for the sole purpose of turning a dollar.
Mike in Detroit
230sl silver/red
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Anyone have an opinion on the impact of higher fuel prices and how it affects (Pagoda) prices? Most people with the disposable income or who already own collectable cars don't worry about the price of fuel since it's off set by the enjoyment of ownership but my concern is that new buyers may be putting off a purchase to use the money elsewhere. Would this bring down values?
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I, probably like most here, only use the "Market Value" to justify, in my mind and my wife's, that my "NEW" hobby makes economic sense too! If the truth-be-told... I'd own my two babies even if they were depreciating in value - I just wouldn't (couldn't) brag about what an intelegent investor I am! :mrgreen:
1967 250SL Signal Red
1969 280SL "Tweety Bird Yellow"
1987 260E Charcoal
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I hope we do not do anything to "influence the perceived value" of our cars. Just yesterday I had my first close look at a restored 300 SL gathering dust with it's incredible $ "value". Meanwhile I was driving my 280 soaking up the sun with the top down. The value of the 300 keeps its owner from driving, parking, "risking" damage or theft. No doubt we all think about these, but for the majority of us they don't keep us from having a lot of driving time and enjoyment from our pagodas.
Mike expressed well why we don't want investors buying these cars. Like the best musical instruments, they'll end up in someone's collection rather than on the road with someone that drempt of driving this car for thirty years like me or Pujyade (someday soon!).
bjudd
1969 280 SL 5 sp
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I hope these cars don't go the way of rising prices, and they are so fairly common (relative to rare cars) that I don't think they will very much. We take care of them and keep them around, too. This is not a way to invest money for the future, quite the contrary, in my opinion. It's a car to enjoy and drive around.
1967 230SL (Manual)
2006 Prius (Mostly Electrical)
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I feel good that no one here wants to see prices go up. good for a poor cabby like me. I didn't know these cars were common.
quote:
Originally posted by Chad
I hope these cars don't go the way of rising prices, and they are so fairly common (relative to rare cars) that I don't think they will very much. We take care of them and keep them around, too. This is not a way to invest money for the future, quite the contrary, in my opinion. It's a car to enjoy and drive around.
1967 230SL (Manual)
2006 Prius (Mostly Electrical)
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We are blessed to be driving affordable and unique cars and having fun maintaining them and talking to other friends about them. I personally feel happy about that and hope it stays for a longer period and hope others also benefit. When I pass by a MB dealership and see the price tag for new convertible MB cars and compare them to my Pagoda it make me smile - my car is more prety and costed me much less to buy and to maintain - do you know how much a set of engine mountings for a new MB cost compared to a $70 for a Pagoda ...
280SL W113 1969 Ivory
E280 W124 1995 Silver
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Tjhis message list is great insperation for me and my kids. Because everyone here like Pagodas be very cheap and common I decide to buy. I buy first Pagoda! Sold 1983 Chevy and 76 Toyota truck and 85 minivan and money I save from cabby job. Now have a 230SL outside! It does not work yet. But like we all want car and parts are cheap. Next I buy another one for my 15 years daughter who can soon use it for school. Driving Mercedes she will be envy. America is great!
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DaveB - that crap does not belong on this site. And pujyade is correct. He is here, you are not.
Drew Salisbury
Drew Salisbury
1971 280sl auto
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Dear DaveB,
I and my family read and listen to article and it made us sad. If you live in other contry where very very bad things always happen you maybe not believe the wrighter. We are happy to be in America and all become citizens. In China anyone who wright article or book like this would be kill. In America everyone has right under US constitution to say and wright anything. Even if it not true and stupid.
I'm very glad to be American and to have very cheap Pagoda car!
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Get them out on the road, the more people see them, the more the price will go up because they will "want one". One nice thing about Americans, they WANT it NOW!
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Just saw a current listing of 36 280SLs. Avg. was $32,100. Low was $5.5K, Hi was $105K. $25K or less, 6 cars. $35K or more, 10 cars. $50K or more, 3 cars.
Tom in Boise
'71 280SL 4-spd, signal red w/lt. tan interior, restored/enhanced
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quote:
Originally posted by TR
Just saw a current listing of 36 280SLs.
Where?
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
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Interestingly, on the German Pagoda site, there is a current topic where members lament about the recent decline in W 113 prices in Germany.
Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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quote:
Originally posted by rwmastel
quote:
Originally posted by TR
Just saw a current listing of 36 280SLs.
Where?
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
I began subscribing to the SL Market Letter 20 years ago. Let it lapse, but signed up again recently. Glad I did.
Tom in Boise
'71 280SL 4-spd, signal red w/lt. tan interior, restored/enhanced
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Interesting thread. It reminded me of what the Sage of Omaha, the incomparable, Warren Buffet once said when asked about how he feels when stock market prices decline. He responded by asking a rhetorical question that went something like 'if you like eating Hamburger, would you want the price of ground beef to go up or down?' So if one likes driving Pagodas, would they like their prices to go up or down? I would like their prices to go down --even after I buy one. Maybe then I can have two instead of one.
Riadh
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quote:
Originally posted by TR
I began subscribing to the SL Market Letter 20 years ago. Let it lapse, but signed up again recently. Glad I did.
That's what I figured! The only other places that regularly have multiple W113's for sale is The Star and Hemmings, but not nearly as many as the SL Market Letter.
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
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Supply / Demand dictates price appreciation, depreciation. Higher prices reign for those 113's in which collectors/investors are interested, which are generally going to be those versions which are more the 'correct' examples of the original show-room car. In the middle price ranges are those examples we refer to as 'drivers', which are more/less 'correct' in most manifestations... matching numbers, orig. engine blocks, appearance, no serious rust, clean chrome, maybe with some slight tarnish, decent paint jobs, soft-tops, clean, fresh interior's. The lower priced examples are usually damaged goods in one way or another.... body panels replaced, rusted floorwells, trunks, hodged together engine repairs, numbers not matching, dubius history, etc.
Now, here's the kicker... all those decent, mid-priced 113 "drivers" out there are slowly but surely being bought up & retained by more and more 113 'lovers' & enthusiasts... or losing parts with time. Over time this is reducing the available market supply of fully restorable original cars with correct parts. The acceleration of this reduction in available supply occurs when replacement parts from the remaining 'parts' cars become dearer or the only replacements are OEM but not the original parts (tail-lights on pre-280SL's a case in point... among many others.... the wiper blades recently discussed on this site is another). The effect of harder to find or higher priced replacement parts due to limited supply of them makes the cost of maintenance & restorations greater by more than the costs of general inflation.
As fewer correct versions of the 113 are available, and correct parts are dearer to come by, the supply diminishes at a greater rate... since those who already own their correct versions's are more reluctant to part with them as they're appreciating.
So what we'll see in the next 10-15 years is a separation in pricing.... faster rates of appreciation the more 'correct' a version is, and stagnation, or in fact depreciation in real dollars for those that are not quite as correct to definitely lacking in correctness.
There will be more of the less than correct versions available than the fully correct versions (as there are at present)... so the average price of 113's on the market will probably remain about the same with appreciation of the average price increasing only by the rate of general inflation or thereabouts. The average price of marketed 113's is therefore not a good indicator, imo, of whether price is appreciating for a given model/year/condition/mileage or not.
I bought my correct and original '67 250SL for $10k in mid '84... driver though it was, softtop not leaking yet, but in dire need of replacement, original faded interior and paint, some small cracks in the dash ... wood shellac starting to flake with general over-exposure to UV, a small dent in the front bumper, chrome tarnished but not bad or really deeply pitted anywhere, absolutely not a speck of rust at even the most rust-prone spots. Some mild door dings on both doors. Seller was a lady teacher in Santa Clara Valley that had owned the car since '69 and had it serviced regularly by the same MB mechanic since she'ed had it... and all the original maintenance records were still in the file at the mechanic's shop! She had retired a couple years earlier and decided to give the car up to somebody who'ed appreciate it as much as she had.... which is why she sold it to me for $10k... otherwise the going price at the time was $12k - $13k for that model/year/condition & mileage... 103k miles.
OK... my intent was to refinish the car, inside and out.... I drove it for a couple of years to/from work and on some side-trips, but it had a weak cylinder and was using ~2x as much oil as it should have so I decided to have the engine redone before the cosmetics... but I couldn't quite afford it at that time, so I decided to wait a couple more years and parked the car in the garage... where it sat for the next 15 years while I procrastinated and spent / prioritized to put my kids thru college, buy rental income property, and make some attempts to prepare for the someday I'll retire or be fired for being too cantancerous or unyielding.
When I decided it was time ~5-6 years ago, I had the mechanical's taken care of and while engine/tranny were out, I had the cosmetic's handled... and when finished to that level... not everything had been done, it was valued conservatively at $29,500... so that original $10k cost plus ~$18k in restoration costs had basically come out even-steven. Since then I've put another $4k in it (some additional rechroming, some odds and ends) and it's most recent appraisal was for $36k last year... so allowing for a $2k-$3k possible overstatement on the appraised value, I've put into it no more than it's market value at any given point in time.
Is it worth ~$35k? Probably pretty close to it... though I'm not interested in selling and will continue to improve on the remaining items 'til it's up to full snuff again. In about 10 years or so I'll give it to my daughter and son-in-law to drive and continue to maintain as she has appreciated this little SL since she was cognizant of driving anything. By then, I figure it'll be worth close to or over $50k assuming I maintain it and finish all the fine details of the remaining restoration with the same level of quality and fussiness I've used so far.
What's plain old inflation over the next 10 years? Figure 3% average annual inflation so 1.34x it's current value or approx $47k, so a value of $50k in 10 years isn't much real appreciation is it... pretty much just keeping pace with inflation. If there's a resurgence in demand for the correct restored versions in the meantime, the price will hit circa $60k in 10 years... about 20% - 25% over the rate of inflation over that time. I'd actually prefer that not happen though... since it will also force prices for parts up substantially.... hording will definitely occur... it's already begun in fact (pre-280SL tail-lights in excellent condition have appreciated dramatically in the last 5 years, as have pre-280SL beauty rings.. far far more than rates of inflation would dictate... so collectors and speculators on vintage car parts for the SL's have seriously begun to start collecting on the correct parts no longer available from OEM after-market mfg'ers). I forgot to mention... there are fewer and fewer expert 113 mechanics around as time goes on as well... resulting in incorrect 'fixes' or mistakes that break things no longer easily available for those that aren't privy to a local expert at the 113 model's mechanicals and engine nuances. I had some rubber mounting rings for the exhaust put on at an MB dealer (for free) about a year ago, and low and behold there was only one mechanic in a 20 man shop that even knew there was a special MB tool (and he had one in his box) to do this little task, 10 or 12 other mechanic's came over to look under the car while it was on the hoist... they we're all totally oblivious to how to diagnose, much less repair, maintain a pre '80's MB without their computer hook-up. So think about it over the next 10 years as those mechanics with expert experience on the '60's SL's start retiring, or go to meet their maker... what's the impact going to be on ability to maintain correct mechanicals in the general market? My guess is that it'll mean driving futher to repair facilities and expertise, higher repair pricing beyond that due to inflation on a higher hourly rate schedule, and an increasingly incorrect proportion of repairs on those that don't drive a little further or to get the right mechanics working on maintenance.
Now, when was the last time you owned a car that didn't depreciate, but appreciated at or just above the rate of inflation while you continued to drive & enjoy it? In 10 years it'll be a 50 year old sports car... a vintage car by any definition... still registered with and has the original California black plates it was originally issued btw....
In short, I intend on keeping the car in it's correct condition, and thus, I believe, differentiating it from what will become an increasingly divergent market between the correct versions in restored original condition, and the others... mostly due to pride and my penchant for perfection. And... we've all seen the cases where the 'correctness' of the car was or has been seriously compromised by the unknowing or speculators looking to turn the car for a fast buck.
PS. for those who knew about my oil heat exchanger leak... it was indeed in one of the seams... slow leak under pressure and thermal distortions when hot or cooling down.... now fixed and back together.... hopefully good for another 138k miles.... I'll take 50k miles and be more than happy though (knock on wood). I still don't like the design though... from an engineering thermal gradiants and differentials in coefficients of thermal expansion over differing fixed end lengths of tubes to the exchanger. Definitely boot-legged into the design as a quick engineering fix.
Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport
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Basically, what Keith Martin said in his Sports Car Market Guide writeup in 2004 still holds true:
http://www.sportscarmarket.com/profiles/2004/April/German/index.html
Douglas Kim
New York
USA
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Dear Members,
I agree, prices are going up for our cars, makes ense, given production numbers, fewer part cars, great styling, etc.
But question...why are prices skyrocketing for US Muscle Cars? Some are nice, OK, but hundred to two hundred thousand for a Mustang? Hemi? Is this weird or what? I mean, production numbers were always high and these cars weren't really well made or hand crafted (engineered well yes)...these weren't Ferraris or 300SLs...what gives? And does anyone think the bottom will fall out on muscle car values while ours remain stable? Appreciate opinions...Thanks.
R/
Joe
:)
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Joe, Perhaps it's just that American muscle cars appealed to a much wider audience of Baby Boomers who couldn't afford them when they were new.
When I was growing up, there were no computers and the hobby of most American boys was pure speed. The day you were eligible, you showed up at the DMV to get your license. You drooled over the new SS 396, Boss 429, or Hemi 'Cuda, depending on whether you were a Chevy, Ford or Mopar fan. All these cars were far more obtainable and easier to modify than anything metric. XKEs were pretty but you never saw them at the dragstrip. Ferraris were for rich old men and nobody could work on them. Japanese cars were a not on the radar. You and your high school classmates could take your Mom's hand-me-down Nova and with a few bolt-on parts could have a racy little V8 in a lightweight body that would turn 14s at the track and offer thrills at the burger joint.
The gut-wrenching acceleration of a muscle car offers a visceral exitement that most of the refined, euro cars don't. And there's the noise. Everything in Europe is so quiet. Even the motorcycles sound like they're on Valium. Euro metal can be rocket fast of course, they just don't vibrate your ribs when they pass. That takes some of the appeal out of it.
Now, these boomers have money to fulfill their adolescent dreams. So when a fellow who had a 55 Chevy with a 327 in high school makes a lot of money. He wants the Corvette or Z-28 that he wished for in 1969. He can pay for it without worry and when he looks out the windshield, he sees with 17-year-old eyes. That part is priceless.
Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe
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Ray,
Very insightful. Being a baby boomer, I too yearned (and still long for) for an American muscle car. In fact, I even toyed with the idea selling my 280Sl to get one. However, I have owned my 280SL for over 24 years and being part of the family it is hard to part with.
I do however have a Harley and that sort of makes up for the lack of a shaking-and-noisey American muscle car. Maybe one day.
Danny
1970 280SL Euro manual silver
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Hey Ray,
I agree...I love the comment about Euro motorcycles sound like they are on Valium! I understand many who never had money for those cars years ago, and I am one of them growing up in the 60s and 70s, now want them to re-live their youth. Also same reason old toys of the same era and earlier go for so much (trains, erector sets, even old lunch boxes!).
I guess I'm wondering if the prices for American muscle cars has grown so fast and is so inflated, in a few years, the bottom will drop out. I can't see how some Hemi or Shelby is going to always be priced as much or more than a Gullwing or Dino...
Joe
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I will throw my 2 cents in on this, since I have both a Pagoda and a 70 Chevelle. I feel that even though the production numbers for the overall vehicles/musclecars of the 60's & 70's were high, the specialty vehicles were not. The LS6 Chevelle SS, the ZL1 Camaro & Chevelle (only speculation of 1 produced for the Chevelle) the Super B and Roadrunner with the wing and drop nose. Any Chevy that came with a 409, or 427. The Shelby Cobra Mustangs - GT 350 and 500's. Any Mopar that came with a hemi or 6 pack. Back in the day, ordering a new vehicle was like ordering a pizza. Pick your toppings! You could end up with a one of a kind. You could order the RS and/or SS and/or Z28 packages on the first generation Camaro's, and don't get me started with the dealer installed options such as the Yenko's and others. The values have just started to come around in past 10 years. A lot of these vehicles have gone to the crusher, because they weren't worth the investment of restoring then. If the general consensus is that parts for Pagoda's are cheap, muscle car part would be viewed as almost free! I spent over $4,000 building the motor for my Chevelle. I estimate it makes just under 400 hp. That included all machine work, pistons, rods, crank, alum. heads, carb, etc. I priced pistons for my Pagoda at $960 for the set and $189 for the rings. Thats 25% of my budget, without any machine work, gaskets, bearings, etc. I will spend well over the $4,000 for a stock rebuild of a 6 cylinder.
Bottom line is, I enjoy them both, but in different ways. And I hope that the prices go through the roof for these cars.
70 Chevelle 13.7 @ 99.7
70 280 SL Silver/Black top
05 C230 Kompressor
03 Dodge Durango SLT