Pagoda SL Group

W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: cjpoulos on April 03, 2025, 13:07:40

Title: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: cjpoulos on April 03, 2025, 13:07:40
Hey all. I have a 1969 Mercedes 280sl that I brought home in June of ‘24. I’ve been chasing down some demons ever since I took ownership, and I like to think that I’m mechanically able. I’m having some pretty tricky rough idle and rough running (when it feels like running) issues. I’ve search through the forums and pieced together info on many issues, but I felt like it would be worth it to make this post. This car is verified to have only 14,800 original miles, but it was stored nicely in a garage in non-running condition for 25+ years. It’s in amazing shape cosmetically, but it’s not the best mechanically at the moment. I’d love some advice on changing that last part!

Here’s a list of the engine related work I’ve done minus a few things:

Replaced Fuel Tank
Cleaned Electric Fuel Pump
Replaced All Soft Fuel Lines/Filters
Cleaned Hard Fuel Lines
Verified Functionality of CSV
Valve Adjustment
Valve Seals
Compression Test - All cylinders hold about 160psi
Cooling Channels Cleaned in Block
New Water Pump
Throttle Linkages Are to Spec
Valve Timing and FIP timing are set to correct spec

There’s lots more necessary work that’s been done to revive this car with the goal of preserving it and ensuring it’s health for many miles to come.

Now, the engine cranks well. It will typically start quickly on the first go. It idles POORLY (makes a deep rumble too). Maybe sitting at about 500rpm idle, does not like to rev up, and does not smooth out at higher revs. It tends to die after about 30 seconds. At a second attempt, it cranks but doesn’t start, although it tries. By the third attempt it only cranks. I don’t crank it for very long obviously, but I can’t figure it out at this point! The plugs are fouling with carbon very quickly, they’re gapped to .030, and black after maybe 30 seconds or running. I know these cars like to running rich, and maybe it’s just because there is excessive fuel when attempting to start, but that seems like a short amount of time to foul plugs.

Like I mentioned I’m an able mechanic and like to think that I’m not a hack, but this car is kicking my ass! There is also some fuel in the distributor vacuum line if anyone has some special knowledge on what that may cause.

I’m definitely missing some info here and I would very much appreciate some advice - and if I mentioned something that you know to be very wrong, please tell me! Thanks!
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: Lori on April 03, 2025, 16:06:48
Sounds similar to when I woke up my car from its 12 year slumber. 

After initial start, have you tried to adjust the idle air screw?
Have you tried leaning out the fuel injection pump idle adjustment?
Have you checked the fuel injectors?  After sitting, they are likely to have an erratic spray pattern. 

Also, have you look at the linkage adjustment tour?
https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Restricted/Linkage-tour




Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: mdsalemi on April 03, 2025, 16:33:18
Check all the plugs, wires, and wire ends (plug connectors)
If rough running I bet the plugs are fouled; not necessarily the cause of your problem but it's not going to run properly with fouled plugs OR with a bad wire or connector.
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: Bonnyboy on April 03, 2025, 16:52:04
You note you cleaned the fuel pump-have you measured the amount/volume of fuel returning to the tank to make sure its up to spec?

Ian
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: cjpoulos on April 03, 2025, 20:04:05
Good advice!

I have tested the spark plug leads about a month ago and they all tested very well, including the coil wires.

I have not tested the fuel injectors or measured the returning fuel volume. I’ll look into that shortly. I think MercedesSource sells a bench tester for the MFI systems, so I’ll have to pick one of those up.

Before the head was pulled recently, the idle air screw was set properly, but check on it again.

I haven’t changed any adjustments on the FIP yet, but that could a cause of what I’m expecting now that I think about it. I’ve found some comprehensive explanations on the adjustments so that will be done as well.

Thanks!
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: Pawel66 on April 03, 2025, 20:36:10
Not sure what "Throttle linkages are up to specs" - not sure what it means.

I do not see in the list two activities that are absolutely basic:
- ignition timing
- linkage tour

Have you done those?
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: cjpoulos on April 03, 2025, 20:50:08
Yes, I've gone through the linkage tour and that's essentially what I meant by "up to spec". I have also set points gap to .012 and dwell is at 36 degrees I believe - whatever the recommended settings are for each, I don't quite remember if those are the correct settings of the top of my head.
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: Pawel66 on April 03, 2025, 21:19:35
Ok, sorry, you said that "before head was removed the idle screw was set properly, but will check on it again" - usually you correct it doing linkage tour, so I thought you have not done it as linkage tour is about setting correct idle and linkages are just part of it.

I think you have some good advise here, I am not a mechanic, I can tell only from my experience, two points come to mind:
1. Already advised fuel flow check - a very simple test that will tell you if the fuel system is not clogged (I assume you have fuel level above reserve)
2. A shot from the hip: if you have new Bosch points in the distributor - lots of those that were on the market a couple of years ago were faulty
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: cjpoulos on April 03, 2025, 21:44:35
No worries, any advice is greatly appreciated and obviously I'm overlooking some seemingly pretty simple here haha. I'll update after I've completed some of the work here!
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: ctaylor738 on April 04, 2025, 00:33:54
Suggest checking the free movement of the injection pump rack.  It may be sticking in the rich position.  Lots of posts on this. 

Cheers,

CT
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: Cees Klumper on April 04, 2025, 03:00:50
X2 on the injection pump rack; some of the plungers may be stuck.
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: ja17 on April 04, 2025, 03:59:32
Try checking the WRD. It is an easy test to perform. I see you are in Ohio. If all else fails, bring it down to Blacklick, Ohio and we can sort it out together in a short time!
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: stickandrudderman on April 04, 2025, 08:45:02
What Joe said.
https://y outu.be/TrsMgUlEUaU (https://youtu.be/TrsMgUlEUaU)
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: mdsalemi on April 04, 2025, 12:24:52
Colton,

If Joe Alexander has invited you to bring the car to Blacklick—a mere 140 miles, 2:30 drive—you really ought to make the plan post haste. I can guarantee that it will be time well spent, the problem(s) will be solved (or diagnosed accurately at a minimum) and you’ll be better off for it.
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: cjpoulos on April 04, 2025, 14:44:55
Joe, I'll definitely have to take you up on that! I'll send a message over to you. Luckily we have a car hauler I can load the SL on.

The WRD thermostat seems to function properly, and everything seems to move/flow freely so hopefully we can check that off the list.

I verified the valve train timing again last night and it was spot on, and it's holding about 160psi per cylinder when I tested compression. I'm going to test the ignition systems even further tonight to make sure we're getting strong spark.

Thank you to everyone for the help so far!
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: yves on April 04, 2025, 16:41:18
Hi CJ, i used with succes the Injectors cleaning kit. I have pressed the pump a few times for some injectors and a lot for some other.... but finally they showed a nice spray pattern and kept the fuel without any leak.
Be aware to have the right tool for unscrewing the injectors....!
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: Pinder on April 04, 2025, 16:52:46
I would take a guess that your Fuel inection pump rack may not be completely free and maybe binding as well as teh pistion / plungers in the rack may be stuck on some of them. This may free up over time but likely the injection pump needs a good flush out to free it up.
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: twistedtree on April 05, 2025, 11:21:56
Colton,

If Joe Alexander has invited you to bring the car to Blacklick—a mere 140 miles, 2:30 drive—you really ought to make the plan post haste. I can guarantee that it will be time well spent, the problem(s) will be solved (or diagnosed accurately at a minimum) and you’ll be better off for it.

Plus you'll meet Joe.
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: twistedtree on April 05, 2025, 11:47:32
The fouled plugs plus progressive difficulty restarting makes me think it's running really rich.

The fuel rack check is a good one.

After the first start, you could try disconnecting the control wire on the CSV so that is doesn't squirt more fuel on subsequent restarts.  If the restarts get easier, that would further indicate it's over fueling.

Your idle speed is low, so try opening the air valve.  If the engine speeds up and smooths out, it's further confirmation that you are running too rich.  You could also disconnect the linkage from the throttle flap and crack it open by hand.  Again, if the engine speeds up and smooths out, it's confirmation you are too rich.

It may only be loosely related, but what spark plugs are you using?  I think the original specs call for a BP6ES, but I had a lot of similar issues and at the suggestion of someone here switched to BP5ES plugs and it made a huge difference.

Check the little air filter on the FIP like in Colin's video.  When cold the FIP will be running rich, and the extra air admitted by the WRD is essential.  If that's restricted it will run rich.  Then leave the filter off so you can later confirm that the air flow has stopped once the WRD has warmed up.

Verifying fuel flow is important to do, but I don't see how it would lead to rich running - just the opposite.

What you know for certain is that you have missed something, so don't assume everything you have checked or done previously is actually correct.   Being open to questioning what you have already done is mentally one of the hardest parts of diagnostics, at least for me.
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: antonio martinez on April 08, 2025, 05:39:59
Fuel return?
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: sens on April 11, 2025, 12:48:19
If your CSV is leaking, you keep on running very rich.
Might be your problem.
Easy to test...
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: cjpoulos on April 14, 2025, 15:36:31
The CSV seems to be problematic. When I first disconnected it last night, the car started much easier and actually stayed running for a bit longer than usual. This came as a bit of a surprise because I tested the CSV about a month ago and it seemed to be in order.

Now I'm trying to find BP5ES spark plugs for it because I suspect the spark is not very hot, or at least too weak to compensate for how rich the car is running at the moment. I tested the ignition coil, spark plug leads, and condensers, and they all tested well.

I suspect that the injectors need to be tested and cleaned at this point. Almost there!
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: sens on April 14, 2025, 18:05:28
That is good news!
So how did you disconnect your CSV?

I would not only disconnect the electrical  wire but also block the fuel line, to make sure there is no additional fuel getting into the engine.

Good luck!
Halvor
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: cjpoulos on April 15, 2025, 15:18:48
I originally disconnected the CSV wire only, but after your recommendation I also blocked the fuel line. Thanks for the advice!

Now I've ordered some NGK BP5ES spark plugs per the forums' recommendation. I've been going through the website and watching tons of videos, mainly from Kent Bergsma at MercedesSource, and it seems like I'm getting weak spark in addition to a rich mixture. I bought some copper Autolite plugs a few months back because they were the only immediately available option with twist off caps, and I'm going to guess that they aren't providing a healthy spark.

Now I'm at a point where the car runs slightly more smooth than it did when I first posted (thanks for the help on that you all!), and it seems like it will be going strong with the addition of new plugs and serviced or replaced fuel injectors!

I'm cutting it very close, but my goal is to have the car running well by May 3rd, which is the date of a large car show at a college I (briefly) attended in McPherson Kansas. I originally planned on driving the car almost 1,000 miles to the show and back, but I'm coming to my senses a bit and now I plan on trailering it to protect it from the highway risks. Hopefully we can make it!
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: Cees Klumper on April 15, 2025, 17:24:43
Don't expect too much from new spark plugs if the ones they replace are also relatively new and, more importantly, not fouled. If you have weak spark it may have another source.
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: cjpoulos on April 15, 2025, 17:53:30
I think the main issue with my current plugs is that one or more of them is faulty - I may or may not have knocked two of them off the workbench late one night... They foul very quickly as well, which I'm currently going to blame on the mixture issues and whatever may be causing that. I've ordered an injector tester/cleaning kit from MercedesSource, so I'll start chasing the final fuel issues there. I think between that and the new NGK's, we will be in good shape!
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: sens on April 15, 2025, 18:27:45
If you have a multi-meter you could:

1/ Test the spark plug between the thread that goes into the block and the tip coming out of the ceramic tube. Resistance should be very, very high, infinite.
2/ Test between the same tip and the point where your cap fits on the plug. Should be around 1100 Ohm
3/ Test the wires including caps. Should be around 0 Ohm.


If you clean a fouled plug and sand a little the spark points, you should have a good spark.


Now if this is OK, I would do the split linkage test to see if you are realy running so rich. (I think you do)

Good luck.
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: twistedtree on April 16, 2025, 11:24:47
Another test of the CSV is to remove it from the manifold, but keep the fuel pipe connected.  Then turn on the ignition and let the fuel pump run a bit.   Look for any leakage of fuel from the CSV spray nozzle.  If it's dry, then you know it's not continuously over fueling the engine.
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: sens on April 16, 2025, 12:19:37
Spot on!!

That is a very good test to make sure the CSV is OK!!

Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: cjpoulos on April 16, 2025, 13:26:47
That is a great test. I did all the tests mentioned and it turns out that my CSV is working very well, no leaks and it's not stuck open or closed. I think the initial spray at start up is just adding unnecessary fuel because of how rich the mixture already is, so it runs a bit better with the CSV disconnected.

The car will start and run (a bit roughly) every time now! Dwell is set to 36 degrees, points are at .012, and I gapped the plugs down to .027 from .031, which seemed to help a lot - did not think that it would make a noticeable difference, but I'll take it.

Now I'm just going to clean the injectors and throw the new BP5ES's in - the NGK BP5ES 7832 are available on amazon now for anyone who's had trouble finding them. Make sure to buy the 7832 part number, those have the twist of caps (7732 BP5ES plugs have a fixed cap that threads into the ceramic bit).

Almost there!
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: sens on April 16, 2025, 13:51:45
Well you are msking real progress!!
You can exclude your CSV.

On my 280SL I had one plug (No4) that fouled. (see post) The others were ok.

It was solved completely by setting the valve clearance correctly (was far to high) and cleaning the injector No4. It had a bad spray pattern.


So I would check the injectors as soon as you receive the kit!

Please let us know!

Good luck!
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: cjpoulos on April 19, 2025, 21:16:06
Update - she’ll run now! I did not expect those spark plugs to make such a difference. Unfortunately, the BP5ES-11 plugs I received were the 7732 version that don’t have twist off terminal caps like the 7832 part number. They were mislabeled online. I was able to carefully grind down the terminals and thread them, and it worked great. A little unorthodox, but I’ll take it for now.

I haven’t received my injector testing/cleaning kit yet, but the injectors seem to be working fine after see it run like a normal Pagoda this morning.

Despite the good news, the problems persist. I now have an oil leak coming off of the crossmember just behind the oil pan. Any insights on what may be leaking? I haven’t seen this before so I’m a bit stumped. Could there be a leak from the FIP?

I’ve never seen a true “one step forward, two steps back” situation until I bought my Pagoda last year - but still, I couldn’t be happier with it.
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: sens on April 20, 2025, 10:20:08
Oil leak can be a lot of things.

Is it black/braun oil? Engine.
Or red? Stearing system.

Valve cover gasket leaks sometimes a little on my engine.
But also FIP is possible.

Give your engine a good clean and look where the leak starts.
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: cjpoulos on April 20, 2025, 19:36:06
It was just the oil inlet for the FIP. Must have forgotten to tighten it all the way when I installed it.

Got my first drive ever today! 1.1 miles down my road haha. All we need to is to fully sort the rich mixture and buy some new tires - mine are from ‘72. Thanks for all the help guys!
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: sens on April 21, 2025, 06:23:02
Great!!
Enjoy your nice car!!!
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: cjpoulos on April 24, 2025, 04:15:49
I was able to test all six injectors last night. They all seem to be releasing around 230psi, but I don’t think they’re very healthy. None of them are failing to atomize the fuel, and the spray pattern in general is very nice. However, 4 of 6 injectors are not holding pressure and they continue to release until the pressure drops to about 100psi. It’s a constant spray until they reach that low point. Does anyone have some insights on this? Does this warrant an injector replacement or do I need to do a better job of cleaning them? I’m guessing that the constant spray is not a great sign :)

It will start and run without trouble now, but after a split linkage test I’ve been able to verify that it runs very rich. Sometimes the car does not want to drop below 2,000rpm and it will idle there until I shut it off - I’m not very thrilled with this. Adjusting the idle air screw does nothing for the car at this point, presumably because of just how wrong the mixture is. The FIP rack moves with ease though, so I’m glad I won’t have to free that. The car also has trouble moving under load at times. I’m obviously not out cruising in it, but even pulling in and out of the garage can be a seemingly impossible task when she enters these bouts of rich-running-rage as I’m now calling it.

Thanks guys!

Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: sens on April 24, 2025, 07:41:01
Did you read this? Might help...

https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=37588.msg274764#msg274764

A very simple way to lean your mixture is to remove a shim under the barometric compensator.
Keep good track of the changes you make!

https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Engine/AltitudeCompensator
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: cjpoulos on April 25, 2025, 01:58:28
Very good thread. I was able to use some fine metal polish to get the injectors working well. 5 of 6 injectors chirp and hold pressure pretty nicely, the last injector is functional but doesn’t hold pressure as well as the others. That didn’t fix my issue though! Still running very rich.

I’ve taken the shims off of the WRD, and ensured that the rack is free. When the car got up to running temp, I noticed that the WRD was cold and so are the inlet and outlet lines - could this be the real issue? I do have a small coolant leak from the coolant bypass at the front of the cylinder head, so maybe the water isn’t circulating properly. Any ideas?
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: sens on April 25, 2025, 07:17:13
Very good news that you saved 5 out of 6 injectors. $$$! Keep on trying for the last one! You know how to do it!

About the warm running device: that is definitely a problem causing your issue!
If the WRD is cold, it will give more fuel and more air to the engine, supposing that the engine is cold. This causes the engine to run very rich, in your case even when the engine is hot.

One remark:
I suggested to remove a shim from the Barometric Compensator, not the WRD!
Removing the oval shims from the WRD makes the mixture leaner only during warm up. So I would put them back!

I would try to find out why there is no coolant flow through the WRD. It could be an obstruction in the device itself. Try disconnecting it and look if you observe flow.


Good luck!!
I am very curious about your observations!
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: ja17 on April 26, 2025, 05:54:48
If the coolant lines going to the WRD are not getting hot when the engine reaches temperature, you may have a plugged coolant line! The small diameter steel tubing can corrode and get plugged internally. Do investigate ASAP before making more modifications to the injection system.
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: cjpoulos on April 26, 2025, 17:35:11
Alright, so the cooling system is my task for today. I haven’t let the car run since I noticed that the water wasn’t flowing properly. I need to replace the small brass bypass line at the front of the head because that’s leaking, and I removed my heater core bypass and put that back to normal after doing a light flush of the core itself.

I believe I have the FIP tuned properly now. I put all the shims I had removed back, bench tested the WRD thermostat, and now a split linkage test shows that adding more air or fuel when the linkages are split stalls the car out.

Based off of how the engine sounds, I’m thinking that this is now down to a good ignition tune up (maybe the distributor needs a thorough evaluation), and another going-through of the cooling system. The revs at idle still bounce from about 600 - 1000 revs with no noticeable pattern (at least to me), and it continues to stumble with higher revs. I have set the dwell to 38 degrees now. I’ll let you know what I find!

Thanks!
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: sens on April 26, 2025, 19:17:59
You make good improvements!

Is your WRD getting hot now when the egine is hot? And does the air suction on the WRD stops when hot??
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: Cees Klumper on April 27, 2025, 02:25:34
I recommend you install a 123 electronic distributor/ignition.
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: cjpoulos on April 27, 2025, 07:46:22
It was the distributor! I’m happy with my 051 for now, and I’m planning to keep it because it’s in really great shape - the car only has 14,800 original miles and although it was sitting for over 25 years, it’s in incredible shape and almost all of the original parts have been very nicely preserved and “easily” serviceable.

Today I disassembled the entire inner workings of the distributor and found that the plates/weights inside were, simply put, sticky. I cleaned all the parts and greased what needed to be greased and that made an absolutely massive improvement. Idle will bounce from 800 to 1000 RPM, but after about 1100 RPM it’s unbelievably smooth - beautiful sound, not a single stutter, and zero vibrations!

Now I’ll chase down the idle issue, fix my water leak, and replace the tires from 1969… and then perhaps we’ll have the first real drive since the late 1990’s!
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: sens on April 27, 2025, 09:42:03
Congratulations!!!
You did it! 
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: cjpoulos on April 29, 2025, 18:45:28
Very happy!

We have more issues! The car refuses to climb hills, which is very unfortunate because my house is situated at the bottom of two hills... I'm guessing this is due both the mixture and ignition. A split linkage test shows that we aren't running too rich, so I'm thinking the its a simple ignition problem (yay!).

To be fully honest, I messed with the vacuum advance rod a couple of times (bad idea probably), and I'm wondering if that is where my issue is coming from. I had to turn the distributor counterclockwise all the way to get the most smooth performance from the engine, so perhaps the advance rod needs a turn or so?

Thanks for all the help guys - I think this counts as another Pagoda saved!
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: Cees Klumper on April 29, 2025, 20:29:02
It is important to set the ignition timing per specifications, just the right amount of advance will make a significant difference in the amount of power the engine makes. Similar to all the adjustments really, of fuel flow and pressure, fuel/air mixture throughout the operating range, and so forth. I know you know this already, but just responding to your comment about turning the distributor 'all the way'.
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: cjpoulos on April 30, 2025, 02:15:54
I definitely agree. When I first got the car started in June of ‘24 and all the adjustments were correct, the engine noise was very smooth and I believe we’re very close to getting back to that point. Unfortunately, there has been a lot of work I’ve had to do that gradually brought a some things out of spec, but I’ll dig into the vacuum advance adjustments tonight and set all that correctly.

I’m 18 and although I’ve had quite a few vehicles for my age, the mechanical bits of this car are definitely more intricate than what I’m used to. At this point I’ve spent months in this engine bay, so all the systems and parts are making sense now! The w113 has been my favorite car since I was about 5 when my parents bought me a Pagoda pedal car, and I had an insane stroke of luck when I was offered the opportunity to purchase my 280 - so I really appreciate all the help with getting her back on the tar!
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: Bshaunessy on April 30, 2025, 03:15:18
CJPOULOS:
  Thanks for your posts of your journey.  It’s great to follow as a young Mercedes 280SL affecionado gets to know his car!  Your 1969 280 SL is a marvel of engineering….and way beyond a 1969 Chevy or Ford.  But as a consequence , EVERYTHING must be tuned "just right".  The tech manual on this forum is invaluable for just that,….tuning her right.
  Good luck and persevere and in short order she will be purring like a kitten and you can drive her with pride knowing YOU got her there!
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: Jack the Knife on April 30, 2025, 04:32:09
You're eighteen? No kidding. And I thought I was the youngest pagoda owner in the world. Good for you.
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: lagolag on April 30, 2025, 06:59:29
As I have some issue below 2000 rpm I found these two video clip that might be helpfull to do a proper set up.
https://youtu.be/F6sxlOFmoYw?si=GX4cXG7SbsUhA0f_
https://youtu.be/cOLeyZtfoqk?si=YbIGTuI07qzucv0t
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: sens on April 30, 2025, 11:37:10
Hi again!

If you don't have one yet, buy yourself a (used) stroboscopic lamp to set the timing correctly.
That is a must before doing anything else.

Is your WRD getting hot when the engine heats up?


All the best!

Halvor
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: cjpoulos on May 02, 2025, 00:23:36
Thanks guys! Very proud of this car!

The WRD is pretty cold, and the car stays rich even at temp. Maybe the thermo pod is plugged up?

There’s a bit of a “burble” in the exhaust note, a bit of soot, idle bounces between 700-900 revs, and when the linkages are split, the intake can travel down a bit less than an inch (maybe 3/4in) before the car stalls (it will stall with any added gas during the test). The coolant hoses going to and from the heater core are hot, but pipes to the radiator are seemingly only getting hot from the blocks heat.

I’ll check the thermostat and see if I can find any blockage in the other areas. I replaced the water pump about 2.3 miles ago (or about 9 months ago haha).

Thanks guys!
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: Jonny B on May 02, 2025, 03:42:54
Will you be making the trek to PagodaFest in Knoxville in September?? I am sure everyone would like to meet you and see the car!
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: sens on May 02, 2025, 06:13:53
Hello!

You make good progress, but you are not there yet.

I would start by adjusting your timing with a stroboscopic lamp.
Make sure it is set correctly.

Obviously there is an obstruction in your cooling circuit.
The radiator and the WRD should be too hot to touch when the engine is warm. That is not the case…
You could flush the cooling system with water and see if dirt comes out.

Good luck!
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: cjpoulos on May 02, 2025, 13:37:27
Will do, I'm having my mechanical buddy come out to help me with it - I'll keep you updated.

Halvor you seem to have the right thinking! Water isn't flowing, and the WRD can't adjust the mixture to compensate for the engine temp. I'm curious how that effects high range running - will a WRD that stays in the "rich position" cause the car to run imperfectly through the entire rev range, or does it only effect a lower range/idle?
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: sens on May 02, 2025, 14:25:13
I know a little on the Pagode, but you ask the right questions!!!

The WRD adjusts the mixture when cold (more fuel and more air) to get a higher RPM.
But indeed only at idle to approx 1500 RPM.
At higher RPM's it has no effect.
The shims under the Barometric Compensator will influence the mixture for all RPM's.

I would really solve your coolant flowing issue, because running the engine with an unknown obstruction somewhere is not a very good idea.
Once you solve that, the WRD will start to work correctly.

All the best! You will get there!!

Halvor
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: cjpoulos on May 05, 2025, 02:03:56
Little update.

The WRD hoses leak coolant when I remove them, but it isn’t getting hot. I’m going to pull the thermo pod bit and clean it out to see if that’s causing the lack of flow.

The idle has smoothed out quite a bit. I realized that the three leftover washers I had after pulling the head were not oversights, but they were the three round shims for the WRD. Luckily, they were the only spare parts I had, and they made the ole girl idle 70% better.

I used a timing light on the balancer and it looks like the ignition timing is working properly. I set the timing at 6 degrees ATDC, and the advance looks to be working properly.

I think it’s narrowed down to a fuel issue now (plus the water flow bit).
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: sens on May 05, 2025, 05:55:59
Hello,

Timing should be 38 dgr. BTDC at 3000 RPM.

Try that, but be careful.
3000 RPM is a lot!

Are the round shims you mentioned the small ones in the WRD?
Not the oval shims under the WRD?

All the best!

Halvor
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: cjpoulos on May 05, 2025, 17:00:28
Yes, they were the smaller round shims for the WRD. I have two oval shims in place at the moment. I'm going to do a valve adjustment and check the new valve seals tonight because plugs 4 and 5 are a bit oily.

I'm going to put a lower temp thermostat in as well because the one I have currently opens at 192F, and knowing the situation with this car I think a lower temp will be beneficial. Water IS flowing through the thermo pod, and water is also either flowing through or "sitting" in the upper hose to the WRD. What directions does the water flow through the WRD? Maybe a higher pressure back flush will help clear the channels out?

Once things are put back together I'll verify the advance at 3000 RPM. Is 6 degrees ATDC the correct setting at 800 RPM?

Thanks!

Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: sens on May 05, 2025, 17:41:19
I would advise not to change too many things at the same time.

First try to solve your coolant flow issue. There should be a good flow through the WRD to make it too hot to touch. If not do a flush or back flush and look for the plugged tube.

Around 8 dgr ATDC is about OK at 800 RPM, but I prefer to set it at 3000 RPM.
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: cjpoulos on May 05, 2025, 19:27:16
I've definitely learned by (limited) experience to go one step at a time! I'll finish checking on things under the valve cover and verify timing from there.

Also, I figured I'd show you the car in question. Purists may be a bit stunned... The original owner did the work in 1970.
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: sens on May 05, 2025, 20:07:26
Nice!!!


Halvor
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: Bonnyboy on May 05, 2025, 21:37:01
Diidn't the car have lake pipes on it when you got it?  Have you switched over to a stock exhaust system? The reason I ask is that my car had a straight pipe / blue bottle on it when I got it and it didn't like to idle.  I put a stockish setup on it and made just a few adjustments, got the cold start valve working and replaced the springs on the distributor and it settled down to an idle. 

 
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: Jonny B on May 05, 2025, 21:46:16
Post a few more shots of the car - this group just loves to see photos of Pagodas!

Great job, keep it going.
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: bracurrie on May 06, 2025, 13:36:03
Ignition timing is an old subject for me.  I took a shortcut because my retarding system failed and I haven't been able to fix it. I simply set the timing as if the retard system wasn't there after completely disabling it.  The distributor timing at the higher RPMs are valid either way because the retard system would have been switched off at those engine speeds. Once the distributor timing was set the trick was to get the idle speed back down to 700-900 RPM range since there was no retard to bring it down at idle. This I did by adjusting the idle mixture and idle air.
For you and your 051 distributor you may already be there but I thought you might find the attached data from the BBB factory manual interesting.
Good Luck.
Brad
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: cjpoulos on May 07, 2025, 17:35:15
Gentlemen, I think she's ready!

I'm not too proud of this bit, but I realized that I set the intake valve clearances at .030, NOT .003. I am very dyslexic, but that's a massive difference! I have never seen one of these cars sound and run as smooth as this one does now, I could not believe how smooth it was. No rattles, taps, shakes, pops, bangs, and you can't even hear the valves at all. I'm sure this is jinxing things, but it runs perfectly now. I also fixed the flow issue with the WRD. Must have been an air bubble, because it politely disappeared when I drained and refilled the cooling system again. It may also have had something to do with the 160 degree thermostat I installed, who knows.

I did a thorough inspection of the friction surfaces, rocker arms, springs, keepers, etc. Everything looked great, this thing barley has break-in miles so it's nice and pretty under the valve cover.

Thanks for all the help guys, I'm sure I'll find more issues to bug you all about in the (near) future!
Title: Re: ‘69 280sl - Rough Idle/Rough Running
Post by: sens on May 08, 2025, 06:20:49
Waaauw!
That is fantastic news.
Enjoy your beautiful Pagode!!!