Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: greatfinds on January 02, 2025, 20:41:00
-
Happy New Year to everyone. Thank you for the responses on the Data Card. One more question: There is a stamp on the Data Card dated July 9, 1970. Is this a 1970 car? The seller states it's a 1971 model.
Thank You,
Curt
-
Some info here: https://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/USModelYear#ModelYear
Does it matter?
There is a question of production vs. registration date. I am sure the members from the US will fill in all the information.
If you check here:
https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Main/W113ModelData
the model year 71 first VIN was produced in May 1970. Your car was produced, as you have it, in July 1970.
-
Pawel, I cannot find anything that says Model year 1971 started May of 1970. I do see, however, that it was supposedly registration on or after October 1, 1970 and VIN 18,506
Then there is the ongoing debate what the date stamp on the data card says. Usually it is in one of the fields "Übernahmetag" means transfer day, "Zulassungsdatum" means registration day. Neither one is the production day. "Übernahmetag" may be close to it. Still, in the case of my car the stamp says "Zulassungsdatum" and it is the same date as the title issue day by Mercedes Benz.
-
Mike, the VIN 18506 was produced in May 1970 - you can see it in the list of changes (I also provided link to it) or check it with the production statistics we have. Then production of the model year 71 started in May 70. I think.
As for the date on the stamp - yes, we discussed it. I think at least for Ubernahmetag is good proximity of the date the car left the factory.
It is not specified on the datacard in question, which date it is. VIN numbers, however, match July 70 production.
-
By the time a car produced in July of 1970 finally made it across the pond and landed in a dealer's lot here in the US, it very likely would have been titled as a 1971 model.
My 230SL was produced in February of 1966. When it left the plant, it likely spent time in an adjacent holding yard before being transported to the port, where it likely spent more time in a holding yard before being loaded on a ship to cross the pond. Once unloaded at the port of entry it would have sat in a bonded holding yard until it cleared customs. Once released to the US importer it likely sat in another holding yard awaiting release to be shipped to the selling dealer, American Service Center in Arlington, Virginia, who delivered it to the first owner, Mr. Southworth, in August of 1966. He told me in 1989 that he had special ordered the car from American Service Center in the same color combination as the 220SE Coupe he bought from them in 1959 and traded in on the 230SL. He said he had placed the order between Thanksgiving and Christmas of 1965.
American service Center was still a Studebaker dealership in 1966 and one of the very first Mercedes-Benz dealerships in the country. If I remember correctly, 1966 was right about the time that importation of Mercedes-Benz vehicles was transitioning from Studebaker Packard Corporation to Mercedes-Benz USA. I expect MBUSA had probably streamlined the importation and delivery process somewhat by 1970, but even today it can take a month or two for a vehicle to arrive in the US from Europe once it is produced.
-
Seems like many 1970 models get labelled 1971 models by sellers hoping to get an extra buck. In my opinion, this is a 1970 model. I could be mistaken, but I thought that the 1971 model year began on October 1st, 1970.
-
Well, I am sticking to what we have in the wiki. It says registration October 1st. Which means production in May 70.
I recall we had this letter from MBUSA to dealers explaining classification does not go (like in the case of the US producers) by launching next year's model late summer/autumn the previous year. Mercedes went by registration date, not really distinguishing model years.
-
I agree with John, it’s 1970. So for discussion, a Pagoda comes off production line in July 1970 set for European market, and right behind it is a Pagoda set for US market, both came off production line the same day, in Europe the Pagoda is classified as a 1970, however because it takes so long to reach the American market, and as the American car manufacturers do as a market strategy and as a advertising gimmick, they want to call October the new start date for next years models on sale ( in this case 1971). So if the Pagoda did not make it American showrooms until after October first, then they are going to title it a 1971 model. Dealers do not want inventory of last years models on their lots for too long after October first, because they have to discount them. Do you think they want to discount a newly imported SL? In the 70s the American system of selling cars was much different then in Europe, where model changes were not every year. I think that is why MBs became so popular here in US was you could drive their cars for years and they were still the current model. So your neighbor should think you had a “new” MB. Back then the mind set of American car consumers was I need to trade in every three years (banks would have loaned only for three years, so when car was paid for, let’s trade). In Europe the European cars were respected, well cared for, and thus a European family would keep the car ten years or more. New ball game now, with leasing and loans out to seven years, and the new car/truck prices it’s a mixed bag.
-
I agree with John, it’s 1970. So for discussion, a Pagoda comes off production line in July 1970 set for European market, and right behind it is a Pagoda set for US market, both came off production line the same day, in Europe the Pagoda is classified as a 1970, however because it takes so long to reach the American market, and as the American car manufacturers do as a market strategy and as a advertising gimmick, they want to call October the new start date for next years models on sale ( in this case 1971). So if the Pagoda did not make it American showrooms until after October first, then they are going to title it a 1971 model. Dealers do not want inventory of last years models on their lots for too long after October first, because they have to discount them. Do you think they want to discount a newly imported SL? In the 70s the American system of selling cars was much different then in Europe, where model changes were not every year. I think that is why MBs became so popular here in US was you could drive their cars for years and they were still the current model. So your neighbor should think you had a “new” MB. Back then the mind set of American car consumers was I need to trade in every three years (banks would have loaned only for three years, so when car was paid for, let’s trade). In Europe the European cars were respected, well cared for, and thus a European family would keep the car ten years or more. New ball game now, with leasing and loans out to seven years, and the new car/truck prices it’s a mixed bag.
Don't know about much of other countries in Europe, but in Germany, a car that is titled in a certain calendar year, i.e.: Jan 1 through Dec 31 is designated a car model of that year. There is no such thing as "model year". My car was titled and first registered on December 16, 1970 in Germany. There it was always considered a 1970 280SL. If I get this titled here in the U.S. they may title it as a 1971.
-
Does the car in question have a hardtop rear window defroster with a switch below the ashtray?
-
Does the car in question have a hardtop rear window defroster with a switch below the ashtray?
It seems like it does. Option Code 249 indicates that.
-
Yes it does.
-
Many 71 models had the rear defroster. Rare on earlier cars.
-
I have a 70, Euro, March delivery, 69 production with window defroster. Could be some indication, not a rule confirmation I think.
-
Interesting discussion. For what it's worth, my 1970, VIN 16925, is date stamped May 1970.
-
:) Mine VIN 16726 is stamped March 1970.
-
Good topic!
I have a "similar" situation.
My car was registered in California in 1964, so was labelled as "64 230 SL.
However the VIN is 000358, which, per the link by Pawel, was produced in Aug 1963.
When I look for replacement parts, only the "early" '63 items are the correct matches.
So, often I call my car a 1963 model, despite the registration. I don't think that's too misleading.
Curious as to what others think?
Thanks for the interesting discussion.
Marty
-
Good topic!
I have a "similar" situation.
My car was registered in California in 1964, so was labelled as "64 230 SL.
However the VIN is 000358, which, per the link by Pawel, was produced in Aug 1963.
When I look for replacement parts, only the "early" '63 items are the correct matches.
So, often I call my car a 1963 model, despite the registration. I don't think that's too misleading.
Curious as to what others think?
Thanks for the interesting discussion.
Marty
Hello Marty, i guess it depends who's asking, insurance companies and probably government agencies want the registration date, if you tell them it's different from the build date, they'll just get confused
For the sake of servicing, repairs and spare parts, it has to be the build date, as many production changes may have taken place between the two dates, which may be the case with your car
As far as i'm concerned your car is a 1963 model
-
The 200 car, two month difference between Pawel and my cars suggests an approximate 100-car-per-month build rate.
-
Good topic!
I have a "similar" situation.
My car was registered in California in 1964, so was labelled as "64 230 SL.
However the VIN is 000358, which, per the link by Pawel, was produced in Aug 1963.
When I look for replacement parts, only the "early" '63 items are the correct matches.
So, often I call my car a 1963 model, despite the registration. I don't think that's too misleading.
Curious as to what others think?
Thanks for the interesting discussion.
Marty
Mercedes did not work by years or model years as far as spare parts are concerned. They worked by VIN and/or engine numbers. I noticed that only sometimes, more often towards the end of production, but only sometimes it coincided with years or model years.
-
Thanks everyone for your thoughts!
In my head it’s a “63, but for gov registration, etc, I’ll call it a “64 :)
Take care,
Marty
-
The 200 car, two month difference between Pawel and my cars suggests an approximate 100-car-per-month build rate.
With the total production of about 50,000 Pagodas over an approx 8 year-and-a-bit period that would come to an average of some 500 cars a month?
But maybe just not in that particular period.
-
Interesting discussion. For what it's worth, my 1970, VIN 16925, is date stamped May 1970.
Hello, according to the stats in the technical manual, your car and Pawel's car were both built in March 70, so your stamped date of May, could be the delivery date
-
Here's a typical advisory letter issued by M-B regarding model years. I have copies of these letters from 1959 through 1963, but nothing from the 1970s.
-
From what I gather from discussions about this is, that in the late 60s/early 70s Mercedes had adopted the "model year" designation. For a 280SL, we definitely have a model year cycle for U.S.cars.
Not relevant for Europe as most countries there register and title a vehicle by calendar year.
-
That letter is not at all clear. For example, it says "during that period" without specifying the period this is referring to.
Even more confusing (to me at least) is that then the letter says that cars sold "during that ??? period" will carry the Registration Year designation of 1964" which would suggest that the car was registered in 1964 even when it was in fact registered in 1963. And what I think Mercedes meant was that they would mimic the US practice of having the 'model year' be earlier than the calendar year. I think even a Chevy that was sold and registered in October 1963 would be 'called' a 1964 Chevy but its registration year would be noted as 1963, not 1964.
Why oh why.
-
Here's my 2 cents....My car was ordered May 12 1968 was built in July 68, put on a boat and arrived in Long Beach CA in early September. When I took delivery on Sept 18, It was registered here in California as a 69 model as it still is today. Since it was really a "68" car, it did not have the mandatory headrests as were required for later '69 models so on the window sticker there was a credit of $71 for "Omission of Head Rest Restraint". The dealer told me it was the first 69 280SL registered in CA (I'm not really sure, but that is what he told me) and to me, that is what it is, a "1969 280SL" :)
John
-
FWIW, by 1972, M-B had added "REG. YR." to the window stickers.
-
. Since it was really a "68" car, it did not have the mandatory headrests as were required for later '69 models
John
Headrests were required for all cars PRODUCED after January 1, 1969. So, even so called "1969 models" made in december of 1968 did not have to have them.