Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: ja17 on August 01, 2005, 10:02:10
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Hello Group,
"Arjun" drove his Pagoda 230SL from New York to the Ohio Tech Session. On the way home it seems his clutch has gone out. He is at repair shop off Interstate 80 in northwestern PA. (Dubois Area). He is leaving the car for repair and return for it when finished.
Anyone who can offer any assistance in the area? He is traveling alone and is currently sorting out parts issues, and transportation back to NYC.
His car is a 5 speed standard.
Jim Villers, Micheal Eagan, Dan Caron, or Pete Lester may be able to answere some parts questions on the rare 5 speed. Hopefully the clutch parts are the same as the standard four speeds?
I have Ashish's cell phone number but probably should not post it here. Email me if you can help.
Thanks all.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Joe .... All of the clutch is standard stuff. The trans comes out and goes back just like the 4-speed. Any compenant shop should be able to replace the clutch.
Is he sure it is the clutch verses the slave cylinder or just running out of fluid?
Too bad it did not fail in Ohio .....
I will "help from a distance" if needed. My phone is 757-481-6398.
Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, 190E 2.3-16 Kompressor
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I am sure you will get good advice from the real mechanics on the board, but my word of caution having rebuilt the clutch on a '64 230sl: there are 3 versions of the driven plate and 2 versions of the pressure plate for the 230sl, just make sure to have the right ones supplied for the repair. Here is a pic from the BBB:
Good luck,
g
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) clutch2.JPG (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/enochbell/200581122437_clutch2.JPG)
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'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon
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Hello Jim,
Thanks much! I will relay the information. It sounds like the throwout bearing may have failed and chewed up the pressure plate. We will keep everyone up to date. It is nice to have good support when needed!
Thanks much.
Joe
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Thanks Jim and "g",
This is very helpful and the information has been related to "Arjun" (Ashish). He has found a decent repair shop. His repair person and Ashish will follow this thread for any needed information.
We will keep this "lifeline" open until his Pagoda is safely home again.
Ashsish is currently on his way back to NYC and hopefully will return soon for the Pagoda.
This string will be used by Ashish and his repair person for any needed infromation. He will keep us posted I am sure.
No Pagodas left behind!
Thanks!!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Joe ... We don't leave 190SL's behind ether. Here is a picture of Robby Ackerman and I replacing his clutch at a Holiday Inn parking lot in Great Bend KS when driving home from the Leadville convention. http://www.190slgroup.com/pic_stry/2001/lead_pics/images/ks_garage.jpg
Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, 190E 2.3-16 Kompressor
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Part #s may help:
Pressure Plate MB: 000 250 9604, Sachs:1882 217 131
Cultch Plate MB: 010 250 2603, Sachs 1861 515 336
Release Brg MB: 000 250 5115, Sachs 3151 133 331
Sachs have now rationalised the same clutch plate and pressure plate to fit all models of the Pagoda.
Unsure which release bearing goes in the 230/early 250
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Lower left brg with 2 clips came off the 280SL.
Lower right one is listed for the 230/early 250SL but it does not have the 2 small drilled holes for the 2 clips.
Would be interested to see what comes out of Arjun's car.
Anybody else have experience with these clutches?
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
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naj .... My 230SL throwout bearing had the wire clips. As I also recall, I pressed off the bearing from a carrier to replace it.
Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, 190E 2.3-16 Kompressor
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Thank you all for your kind help.
I made it to NY. The car is schedule to be fixed by Friday.
I have emailed this link to Jim's Custom Repair.
Thank you again,
Arjun
67 250sl
#2210
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Hello "Arjun",
I talked with your repair person in PA. today. I gave him my telephone number if he needs it and I will fax him some factory information on clutch installation in the morning!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Urgent Request!!!
Part needed for five speed! The transmission out put flange is bad on Arjun's 230SL. The splines are stripped out. Any help would be appreciated.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Sorry to hear Arjun had trouble, but glad for him that it seems to be a clutch problem rather than a problem w/ his 5-spd tranny. Gernold Niseus told me that parts for the 5 spd are just not available, here or in Europe & the only possible repair is a 4 speed transplant. Those remarks caused me to put synthetic ATF in my 5 spd. pronto! -JP-
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JP .... Some 5-Speed parts are available. I replaced my front main bearing; other bearings are standard and are very accessible from any bearing shop. I believe that Michael Eagan collected all available spares when support began to get thin. He is the "MAN" for 5-speed problems.
I also use Mobil 1 synthetic ATF in my trans.
Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, 190E 2.3-16 Kompressor
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Would anyone be able to help me to contact Michael Eagan?
Aashish
1967 250SL 5-Speed
New York, NY
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Aashish,
If you login to the forum, this should work:
http://www.sl113.org/forums/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=1130
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
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Hello Aashish,
As last resort, a good machine shop could rebuild that output flange (weld up and re-spline it). It also could be made from scratch.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Joe
That is exactly what was done.
Apparently the nut that holds the tail shaft and the transmission was installed incorrectly and eventually gave away.
I just got back driving the car 300 miles to NY. Its beautiful now.
Would do this all over again.
Thank you all again for your kind help
Aashish
1967 250SL 5-Speed
New York, NY
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Hello
Aashish,
We are happy for your safe return. You were very fortunate to have found such a resourceful person.
With David Pease's arrival in California, I believe all the Pagodas have arrived home safely under their own power. Quite a feat for these vintage machines and their owners!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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quote:
Originally posted by Arjun
Joe
That is exactly what was done.
Apparently the nut that holds the tail shaft and the transmission was installed incorrectly and eventually gave away.
I just got back driving the car 300 miles to NY. Its beautiful now.
Would do this all over again.
Thank you all again for your kind help
Aashish
1967 250SL 5-Speed
New York, NY
Aashish,
Glad they were able to make the part and get you fixed...
This is a good post to stress the importance of checking the rear flange bolt torque and lock when ever one is in there [ like flex change-out]..
...a most important warning sign:
If on sees that speedo starting to jump around, get right on to this check. It is not uncommon to see so many owners with this tip-off complaint and they just let it slide , thinking it is a speedo problem. On any 113 standard shift, this is a loose flange nut early warning sign.
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My speedometer had been jumping around for sometime.
The funny thing is that it is still jumping around albeit somewhat less.
???
Aashish
1967 250SL 5-Speed
New York, NY
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Okay, I want to learn from Aashish's experience. I purchased the special socket for the flange nut. Now, what is the proper torque?
Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe
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150Nm -108 ft/lbs
Which socket did you get?
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At Aashish' request, here are two photos of the part that fell off:
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Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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You can see that it had been serviced by the punch marks. That will do in a pinch, but the pin wrench socket and a torque wrench are the better way to go.
..and a new lock ring , if possible.
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quote:
Originally posted by ja17
Hello
Aashish,
We are happy for your safe return. You were very fortunate to have found such a resourceful person.
With David Pease's arrival in California, I believe all the Pagodas have arrived home safely under their own power. Quite a feat for these vintage machines and their owners!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
The "bravery" of Roman Bartl--another one of our members--should not be underestimated. Note that he was the one who arrived around noon on Sunday, after taking a red-eye from a trade show in Las Vegas, then hopping in his car and driving down to Blacklick with his business associate, Bernhard. A summary is in order:
1) An ex-pat Austrian living in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Stranger in a strange land??
2) Little knowledge about the 113's in general, but learning quickly
3) Little knowledge about his specific car, as he only had it for a few weeks, and didn't have any major trips with it.
4) No tools.
Thus, this Sunday drive to Columbus and back was the "shakedown cruise". I accompanied them back on Sunday night--good thing, too. At our first stop not an hour out of Columbus, I noticed a large amount of smoke coming from his engine compartment. We popped the bonnet and I discovered about 3 oil leaks, and it was the oil smoking. Tach cable fitting, valve cover, and at least one other place. We checked the oil, and alas, it didn't register any. We went a few miles to a gas station, got a quart, and this got him all the way home. A trip to Motorwerks last week, and they found and fixed a few leaks, cleaned the engine, and added a dye to the oil to track down some more after 500 miles. It's an ongoing project.
But he did make it home under his own power.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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Arthur,
Is this flange nut not a problem on the autos?
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
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BS,
It does not seem to be , but ..
Don't have a solid answer for you as to why , just seems to be the case.
If any auto trans guys here have had the same problems as many of the stick guys have had with this common problem , be nice to know ..
..prob has to do with autos upshifting auto under load ???
or, maybe even a better tail shaft spline fit ??
*An added note here .
Many order the pin wrench and it usually winds up the wrong fit .
Well , seems there are two different ones , so make sure before you order one..
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Dalton, the pin socket I bought is from SirTools.com. I can't remember the part number and there aren't any markings on it. It was the only one they showed. I originally got the tool part number from Naj. I believe he had purchased and used one so it must have been right for his car.
Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe
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Hello Bob,
The problem is a lot less likely on automatics. But I have seen it. It is ususually a result of improper installation of the slotted nut on the automatics after rear transmission seal replacement and/or flange replacement.
The brass speedometer drive gear for both the auto and std. transmissions has no key or spline and depends on the tightness of the nut to keep them from slipping!
On a standard transmission the tightness of the nut keeps the entire main gear cluster tight. If the nut should come loose so does the gear cluster, causing a bouncy speedometer (especially under acceleration and de-acceleration). Often some shifting problems will follow (slight nipping when going into gears or hard shifting). The problem on the standard transmissions is once the cluster becomes loose enough it will shift a key out of place and then just tightening the slotted nut may not completely solve the problem.
Bad synchronizers are usually blamed for the bad shifting, this is rarely the case!
The slotted nut should be checked for tightness when repairs provide an opportunity or problems occure. There is a sheetmetal lock plate for this slotted nut, which should be replaced at these times.
I will try to do a standard transmission "tour" soon, since there is little information posted on these units. Stay tuned!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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quote:
Dalton, the pin socket I bought is from SirTools.com. I can't remember the part number and there aren't any markings on it. It was the only one they showed. I originally got the tool part number from Naj. I believe he had purchased and used one so it must have been right for his car.
The one for the gearbox is M0029.
The nut on the diff is different and uses M0030.
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
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quote:
On a standard transmission the tightness of the nut keeps the entire main gear cluster tight. If the nut should come loose so does the gear cluster, causing a bouncy speedometer (especially under acceleration and de-acceleration). Often some shifting problems will follow (slight nipping when going into gears or hard shifting). The problem on the standard transmissions is once the cluster becomes loose enough it will shift a key out of place and then just tightening the slotted nut may not completely solve the problem.
Bad synchronizers are usually blamed for the bad shifting, this is rarely the case!
.............a Tour would be really usefull ! I tried to rebuild my tranny afew years back and it wasn't succesful! I had the speed o bounce problem, I had some noise and "Jumping" out of 4th !
I opened it and didn't see to much wrong, I replaced the bearings and synchro rings ...........I saw that key way you mentioned Joe...
but it still felt the same when I put it back together ! I later replaced the output flange nut and lock plate, having borrowed the tool from Naj.
I now see the speedo doing its trick again and I have a spare standard tranny which I want to rebuild then swop in ! Any info would be great here !
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
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quote:
standard transmission "tour"
While on the subject, is a 4 speed with floor shift from a 220Se same as a Pagoda box?
I was given one by a club member. Externally, it looks the same except the change speed lever on the top cover is horizontal instead if 'angled' downwards.
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
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quote:
Originally posted by Raymond
Dalton, the pin socket I bought is from SirTools.com. I can't remember the part number and there aren't any markings on it. It was the only one they showed. I originally got the tool part number from Naj. I believe he had purchased and used one so it must have been right for his car.
Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe
The problem one runs into with this pin socket is all the manufactures list them by auto trans type. No mention of manual , so this is the cause of the confusion...
So , guys sometime order the late K4C-025 one , when it is the earlier K4A -025 auto one that fits our manual trans nut.
So , whichever manufacturer one uses , make sure their listing is for the K4A/025 trans and it will be the correct stick one .
The pin for rear diff is the same for all swing axles, so one never winds up w/imcorrect one , as it is the only one...
You would think that they would mention this difference , but they do not..
If one has a late .044, the K4C-025 auto is correct. I believe that would be after the '69 break line..
It is not uncommon to see a posting where someone orders this tool and winds up with the one that does not fit ...50/50 chance, anyway. They then wind up making there own . .. which is way better than the punch technique :)
I think on the sticks , a little LockTite might be in order. too..
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Getting the end play set on the input shaft is what makes the trans shift smoothly. Any end play and the shaft moves before the syncro starts to work. This can cause the trans to jump out of gear but most of that is caused by a worn input shaft. The end where it fits into the pilot bearing can have no wear which is caused by a siezed pilot bearing and/or too much end play on the shaft. This movement can cause a deflection to occour on the main shaft which will sometimes make the trans pop out of high gear under load.
There are a number of small shims onder the front cover plate which need to be added to get the end play set to about .001''. I've seen them as much as .030'' or more.
Dan Caron's
SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
slbarn.mbz.org
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Hey Everyone...
Maybe this should be a new topic, and if so, do advise...but i read the part about the bouncing speedo needle and i have been told that the same problem exists with th evehicle i am currently investigating for purchase( 1964 230SL 4spd euro). Is there something else i should be looking for?
Thanks in advance.
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You know, I am quite sure my car was in much better shape before I started reading this board...
I also have the speedo needle bounce. Assumed it was the speedo, now I wish it was that easy. It is no problem when ambient temp. is cold (below 50 F) but it is sluggish when hot (not the car, the ambient temp.) The speedo works well @<40mph but in higher ranges is will fall off and show 10-30 mph less than actual speed, and it works accurately only under hard acceleration. Sounds like the speedo drive gear is slipping?
I'm goin' in. Should I have on hand shims for the input shaft or should I try first to just tighten the nut? I will replace the trans. mount while in there, are there other maintenance items I should attend to while I am at it?
Thanks for the advice,
Greg
'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon
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Hey Arthur and Joe,
Thanks for the replies.
I think SteveRen is right, this discussion should be a separate topic.
There is a lot of important info here that shouldn't be lost in an un-related discussion.
Greg,
don't despair!
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
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Dan.........when you say "pilot bearing" are you talking about the spigot bearing in the end of the crankshaft ??
(That ol' language barrier thing again ;) !! )
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.