Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: mdsalemi on August 07, 2024, 13:45:51
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Yesterday I had a long discussion with our long-time member Dave Gallon regarding coolants for the Pagoda. I’ll try to include facts only. I have ignored a lot of old posts on the matter that you’ll find on various MB forums such as MB World, PeachParts, etc. since some of these were old and were all talking opinions instead of facts—and could be talking products NLA or ones reformulated over the years.
Our cooling systems are truly multi-material. There’s brass/copper (OEM radiator and overflow tank); iron (block); steel (cover plates on engine) aluminum (head) and organic parts such as rubber hoses and seals. A very modern engine might be less with no copper/brass but plastic. I understand some modern Mercedes include a disintegrating additive pack which keeps the anti-corrosion additives going in the coolant. We don’t have this.
Here are some facts: the “modern” (meaning not in 1970) coolant specified for our cars from Mercedes-Benz was their own private label product, with the part number Q-1-03-0002. However that has been discontinued and is “NLA”.
https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/Q1030002.htm?pn=Q1-03-0002-MBZ
If you go to some of our usual suppliers to try and find that, you’ll see a note that it was replaced with Q-1-03-0004. That too, was made NLA:
https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/Q1030004.htm?pn=Q-1-03-0004-M22
What you are directed to as a replacement is one of the many products with “G48” in their name, so for example see this:
https://www.autohausaz.com/pn/Q1030004
So two issues arose in the discussion with this: first, is the Zerex branded G-48 the exact formulation as the prior Mercedes branded Q-1-03-0004? The other issue is that empirical evidence offered by Dave Gallon from his work at Motoring Investments (Brian Peters in San Diego for those that need a refresher) is that the -004 formulation (as opposed to the prior -002 formulation) showed some signs of corrosion on engines. You will note that there is reference to Mercedes-Benz approval 325.0 in some of these product listings.
https://operatingfluids.mercedes-benz.com/sheet/325.0
So from that 325.0 specification from Mercedes-Benz, you’ll see that “application for all passenger vehicles…prior to April 2014”. Sounds good. OK, now since Zerex (this is mostly for USA and North American members) is one of the most popular and readily available brands, and is on the list above, let’s go to their website, and scroll down to “European Vehicles” and you’ll see just three products: G-30, G-40, and G-48. The G-05 is listed under “Heavy Duty Vehicles”.
https://www.valvolineglobal.com/en/antifreeze-coolant/
The G-30 is an OAT coolant. The G-40 is OAT. The G-48 is HOAT. The G-05 is HOAT. All are EG based.
So was there any conclusion? No. If you go to the usual suppliers, you’ll get referred to the G-48. However, if you read the spec sheet on the G-05, that sounds fine too.
You cannot purchase (unless it's NOS sitting on a shelf somewhere) Mercedes-branded coolant at least in the USA, any longer. So you need to go with an available product. When doing mine recently I chose the G-48 since that was what I was pointed to. I could read the spec sheets on the G-05 and reach the same conclusions, however. One thing I did is buy the pre-mix, taking water quality out of the equation. Premix is mixed with purified and de-ionized water. BTW, if you look at the specs on any of these, at the 50/50 mix rate they seem to show a pH of about ~8.0. Slightly basic, not acidic.
What are all the differences? The amount of additives, silicates, nitrates, etc. I’m not a chemist so I don’t know which is any better than any other. Dave and I ended the conversations last night with my final word on it: the best coolant (like oil) is probably the one you change most frequently.
If anyone has more to add to all this, post away.
Sidebar for the chemists among us: if you go to that Mercedes 325.0 spec, you will see a lot of products with the number “48” in their name or description. What’s magical about this number?
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Thanks Michael. I looked and looked and still not sure which coolant is better for our 60s/70s MBs. G48 or G05? Maybe they are both fine but there has to be some difference.
I have used G05 for years with no complaints. Both are HOAT and therefore interchangeable. There is a good article from Valvoline that talks about coolants and includes the early IAT type which are not used by mfgs anymore. I believe that to be the "old green stuff".
BTW, as the article states, never mix OAT with HOAT type coolants. All the coolant internals will turn into a gel. Bad news.
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Hi,
"the best coolant is Heavy Water, Deuterium Oxide D2O, best from a cooling pit in a nuclear power station. Over time, the water acquires slightly radioactive isotopes such as strontium, calcium and aprillium, which not only give the water a bluish glow, but also keep its temperature at around 38 degrees over a half-life of 20 years. This means the engine is warmed up well before starting.
The diffusion coefficient is around 25 percent lower than that of distilled water, meaning: nothing evaporates. In addition, Heavy Water is almost inert, so you can save on any corrosion and therefore frost protection.
And the radiation? It's not an issue as long as you don't drink it, it waves off. The ultra-short-wave omega radiation doesn't even penetrate through radiator hoses.
Another side effect: There is no need for a final storage facility for the radioactive water and you can still sell it profitably."
...WRe
Source: https://oldtimer-markt.de/nachrichten/Die-Loesung-aller-Kuehlprobleme-Ein-Fan-sagt-Ja
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Hi WRe,
And you can buy this Heavy Water from a retail outlet ??
Or do you have to go to your local nuclear power station ;)
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"the best coolant is Heavy Water, Deuterium Oxide D2O, best from a cooling pit in a nuclear power station.
Source: https://oldtimer-markt.de/nachrichten/Die-Loesung-aller-Kuehlprobleme-Ein-Fan-sagt-Ja
While I don't speak a word of German even I can smell a post made on 1-April...
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Hi WRe,
And you can buy this Heavy Water from a retail outlet ??
Or do you have to go to your local nuclear power station ;)
Hi Ray, I thought the German obsession with heavy water ended with Operation Gunnerside in February 1943. I guess they still want it for peaceful purposes, like coolant in their cars?
I'll stick to G-48. No wait, G-05...
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Hi, my two Cents
we should ask ourselves why there is coolant in our cars. The answer: To dissipate heat. And how can this happen?
By having good contact with the heated surfaces and being able to dissipate the heat as well as possible.
As we are talking about a liquid here, it should have a low surface tension, contain little lime and have a low pH value.
Apart from other properties that affect the metallic surfaces (e.g. corrosion, frost protection) , we are talking about rainwater here.
...WRe
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Sorry, I,m confused now.
"We are talking about rainwater here". So it's not Heavy Water at all ?
How do I get my rainwater to glow blue.
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To each his own.
Manufacturers must use antifreeze because they have no idea where their cars will be in service and subject to freezing conditions
Water is a better coolant than glycol
I guess a number of Pebble Beach entrants and the Nethercutt and Leno collections must have been snookered like myself. https://www.norosion.com/history.htm
I offered my experience as just another data point.
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My son is a licensed nuclear reactor operator, I will ask him to next time bring me some of that cool radiant blue water ...
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Note: this topic was started about the specification of, and the NLA status of Mercedes-Benz branded coolants (anti-freeze) for the Pagodas, and then went on to offer some data on the recommended alternatives from Zerex.
The home-made coolant blend using an additive package and water as noted by others was split off into a topic in Research and Development, as this is the forum board for items not standard for our cars.
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My son is a licensed nuclear reactor operator, I will ask him to next time bring me some of that cool radiant blue water ...
Hi Cees,
before your son organizes "coolant" from a nuclear power plant you should look at my link. It"s not necessary to understand German.
;-) WRe
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There is something missing from this conversation. Antifreeze solution is made from 50% distilled water and 50% higher alcohol. It was discovered at the Kanawha river in Charleston, WV years ago when a chemical company was dumping it in the river as a by-product. Then, they started to market it as an antifreeze. The important two properties of this mixture is that it depresses the melting point in the winter to avoid freezing, and, it elevate the boiling point in the summer to prevent overheating. I do not think that heavy water can achieve these properties.
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I hope everyone realizes that the "heavy water" thing was just an April Fool's Joke!
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In August ! ! ! ???
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It fit's the theme so well! 8)
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Ok, Gotcha Gotme :-[