Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: Artkez on May 18, 2024, 05:59:02
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Hello
I am new member to the group and purchased 69 280sl about 6 months ago, from BAT. The car is very nicely restored about 8 years ago including full paint, interior leather and engine and trans out restoration. The top of engine was probably done, not sure if the bottom was done but most likely it was done
I have to say the past 6 months have been a challenging and unpleasant journey. First the Starter broke down and need replacement, and then 1 month later had to again be replaced as the starter failed again, Then a month later the electric fuel pump need replacement since after 30 minutes it would vapor lock and the engine would stop working and needed towing. During the first 3 months of ownership I probably towed the car at least 5 times to the mechanic.
The car would run ok seemed that the power was low and it seemed to run rich because you could smell gas from the exhaust. After a month I attempted to find a specialized Pagoda mechanic to be able to fine tune the engine so that it would be more powerful and less rich. I took this mechanic about 1 month and he attempted to play with the hot valve and attempted to adjust the linkage . The car ran worst and had even less power but it did not smell of gas.
I was not happy with this mechanic and I thought that I may need a new mechanic and I discovered a Pagoda mechanic that came to my house and attempt to get more power by adjusting the valves . After he adjusted the valves the clicking and tap tap noise was very apparent and the clicking was very loud and the car had less power. He came back the next day and redid the valves but the clicking was still there.
A few weeks later I found another mechanic that was more knowledgeable he adjusted the valves to speck but the sound was still there , he said to not drive the car as it could cause more catastrophic damage. He said they need to investigate the top of the engine then the bottom of engine to find the problem of the clicking noise and I would have to wait 2 months before he could see me,
2 days ago I found an older mechanic who was very sympathetic with my problem and seemed like he knew Pagodas . He proceeded to reset the valves, tightened all the rocker arms and repositioned a couple of misplaced springs and adjusted the valve cover so that the it will not hit the cam shaft and tested the compression after readjusting the valves.
He also said that the cam shaft looked great almost like new
After all this the click sound is still there he said that the sound is coming from the bottom of the engine , he said that the top is 100% perfect and the problem is coming from the Bottom of the engine and the engine needs to be pulled out.
He raised the car and the sound was much more noticeable from the bottom of the engine.
He thought it might be the rods or piston arms or crank shaft. He advised not to drive the car at all and only tow it. He thought it would take about 1 -2 months to fix it.
The compressions we all about 100 psi highest 108 low 98. The car does not smoke, no smell of gas, no blue or white smoke
So sorry about the long winded description but I really need some advise and help . Thank you !
Is there anything else that can be done rather than removing the engine ??? How else can you diagnose this problem ???
How did this happen ? it seemed like the very first time I adjust the valves with the amateur mechanic is when the clicking sound started. Can the Crank shaft be damaged by jacking up the car from one side and putting too much pressure while turning the shaft ??? ??
Does the engine need to go to a specialized overhaul mechanic shop or can a small time mechanic fix this ? If you pull the engine out should you do a overhaul ??
What should be my next step ? What does this type of fix cost ???
I am located in Los Angeles – So California area . Any recommendations ?
Arthur
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Hi Arthur
Sorry to hear of your troubles but this is the right place to lead you in the right direction. Many very knowledgeable people here.
Firstly the compression numbers are really low should be closer to the 170psi mark (maybe the valves are adjusted too tight?). (maybe that needs to be re checked after the valvues are adjusted correctly).
your clicking noise could be coming from the valve cover tower brackets. This is possible if the prior mechanic over tightend the 3 bolts on the valve cover. if this happense they will rub on the cam shaft and cause ticking noise. you can check this by removing the cover and where the 3 valve cover brackets are check if you have a clearance and it is not rubbing on the cam. (To fix this you will need to bend the towers back in position)
it may help if you post a video of the car engine running so we can hear what the noise sounds like. If its from the bottom of the engine and is rodk nock its a lot louder than at ticking noise from the cam.
What is your fuel pressure like? when cold the fuel pressure should be max .
Adjusting the values should not have caused the bottom engine noise.
One thing that is a puzzle is why the starter failed? also is it possible the ticking noise is related to an impropper install of the starter?
Regards
Pinder
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Hello Pinder
Thanks for the reply,
They did check for the valve cover rubbing on the cam shaft and they did bend the towers back so that it is not the cam shaft. He did say that the cam shaft was like new and in very good shape. The engine had been taken out of the car 8 years ago during the restoration, but i am not sure exactly what was done. The second starter failed because we greased the bendix too much. The car really starts nice and quick in cold and hot conditions.
Fuel pressure seems to be ok , but was never checked .
I will try to make a video but the current mechanic stated that it is coming from the bottom of the engine and not to drive it as it was very dangerous to the engine
I just feel very surprised , dejected and not sure how to take the next steps.
Thanks Arthur
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Hello, it is disappointing that you've had problems, don't let it spoil your enjoyment of the car, it's over 50 years old, so there will be problems along the way
As Pinder suggests, an audio of the tapping noise will help the experts diagnose it. In the meantime listen to the tapping on this post, does it sound anything like this?
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=37594.msg274888#msg274888
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I often ask new owners how much they paid for their car. This helps to give me an idea of where they are financially on their car. If the car needs 30K worth of engine and mechanical work it's a good idea to know if it will be a sound investment. At a level like that, it's getting into restoration and not so much maintenance.
You have very low compression and an engine knock; no amount of tuning will fix that. :(
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Hi Bob
Thats a great idea i will post a video of the sound on Monday, but it sounds nothing like the one you mentioned. It is more apparent and constant and increases with the RPM
I'll do a HD video
thanks
Arthur
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I often ask new owners how much they paid for their car. This helps to give me an idea of where they are financially on their car. If the car needs 30K worth of engine and mechanical work it's a good idea to know if it will be a sound investment.
Hi Dr Benz
Thanks for your reply , i really appreciate your help . My son and i are partners in the car and we are into it so far past 6 months since we purchased it on BAT , for a little over 100k, ha ha that does not include the towing ......
i will post a video of the sound on Monday ,
but do you think that the improper unilateral jacking up of the car while doing the valve adjustments and putting improper pressure and torque on the crank shaft ??
Can anything else be done ?? maybe remounting the engine or remounting the transmission The transmission was always funny, it would shift hard and always a little late
Truly appreciate your help
Thanks Arthur
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The jacking up will have 0 impact on the engine, don't worry about that.
Since the tapping noise only just started and you say the car ran well before the various mechanics got their hands on it, it may not be something serious (although it might be - just odd that it wasn't there before recently).
Looking forward to the video, I am sure that will help us all get a better idea of what might be the issue.
Just a thought, it may be pinging due to too much ignition advance, who knows.
I would not entrust this engine, if it does need a rebuild/repair, to any local mechanic; I would send it off to Metric Motors who are one of the few specialists around. They are located in Canoga Park, CA. Although theoretically any good mechanic should be able to do a rebuild, there's too much at stake to take chances and a Metric Motors rebuild will add value to the car whereas a 'no name' mechanic's will not nearly as much. But let's hope we don't need it!
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The jacking up will have 0 impact on the engine, don't worry about that.
Looking forward to the video, I am sure that will help us all get a better idea of what might be the issue.
Just a thought, it may be pinging due to too much ignition advance, who knows.
o Metric Motors who are one of the few specialists around. They are located in Canoga Park, CA. Although theoretically any good mechanic should be able to do a rebuild, there's too much at stake to take chances and a Metric Motors rebuild will add value to the car whereas a 'no name' mechanic's will not nearly as much. But let's hope we don't need it!
Cees
Thank you I really appreciate the referral to Metric Motors, i will contact them on Monday and Also i will get the video and post it.
I will touch base soon, i noticed that you are in Los Angeles -- ha ha we need more Pagodas in LA
Thanks Arthur
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Hello
This is a continuation of the problem i am having with my new ( 6months old pagoda 69 280sl) Please help with diagnosis' Do you think it is coming from the top or bottom of engine and what do you recommend ???
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/8IUOZDLiJyo?feature=share
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/N0B5BvmYmzw?feature=share
https://youtu.be/yX6S-i54Vk0
Below is the summary of the events leading up to this status"
Thanks Arthur
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I have to say I don't hear anything alarming. Maybe valves ticking, or even injectors.
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I merged the threads again...
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It almost sound like an exhaust leak at the header. Seems louder on the top end than the bottom
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Exhaust leak is indeed possible, that can sound the same as a valve tick.
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Exhaust leak is indeed possible, that can sound the same as a valve tick.
Cees , Pinder
Thanks for the feedback
I think the sound from the computer is not as strong as it is in real life. They listened with a stethoscope and they think that it is louder in the area of #3 and #4. I think they will try to open it up and if it needs a full rebuild i think we will go with metronics motors in SO CAL
Thanks i'll keep you informed Arthur
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That maybe the best option. It also sounds like rod knock. Maybe the engine got starved of oil or some like that.
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That maybe the best option. It also sounds like rod knock. Maybe the engine got starved of oil or some like that.
Hello Pinder, Cees and Peter
Well i think as Pinder was correct and dead on with the diagnosis but too bad you could not be my mechanic.
The engine did not have the proper amount of oil to the engine. We noticed the knock in the lower part of the engine, we decided to take it all apart and see the problem .
Many mentioned that the noise seemed like a valve problem and it seems that the lack of oil really resulted in a metal to metal grinding noise.
I have attached a picture of the oil line and it seems like there is a large Kink in the line probably starving the engine of about 80 % of needed oil flow.
i check the oil pressure gauge on the dash and it seemed normal, i wish there was a way to see how much oil was really getting to the inside of the engine due to the kinked hose
I can not imagine how this kink developed or when it happened ?? I have also attached pictures of the current condition of the opened engine, the knocking sound they say was coming from the looseness of the piston in their cylinder . Ironically the bearings in the rods and the main bearing all look like new. Cam shaft look new as well.
I almost wish that we could get a new oil hose and put the engine back together and see if the knocking goes away.
Our current decision is to send it to Mike at Metric Motors and let him do his magic and then hoping that my mechanic can put it back together, ( He seems very confident that all will be great)
I am so sorry that we could not find the faulty oil hose damage sooner
Thanks for all you comments and advise, really appreciate it
Arthur
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Its a shame you have to do this but now at least you know it will be done right. be sure to document as much as you can. it will help in the future for proof of work done via pictures / receipts etc.
Regards
Pinder
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Its a shame you have to do this but now at least you know it will be done right. be sure to document as much as you can. it will help in the future for proof of work done via pictures / receipts etc.
Regards
Pinder
Yeah that's true , after we got over the shock now we look at it as an investment and it should just be perfect and we can enjoy it in that restored state.
Thanks for the support
Arthur and Steve