Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tom on July 12, 2005, 11:20:41
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Having some work done on the project car (Red 1970 280sl). Paint, mechanical, upholstery, etc. Question for the group:
I am going for the euro look, so I am thinking about no bumper guards, euro lights and no side markers. Anyone think I should keep the side markes with the euro look?
Thanks,
Tom
1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic (restored & enhanced)
1971 280sl Tobacco Brown (low mileage stock)
1970 280sl Deep Red (Project Car)
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I'll bet if we asked Paul Bracq we know what he'd say -- stick to as close as possible to the way it was originally intended to look.
My vote is to delete them.
Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220
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Hello Tom,
I like the clean look without side marker lights also.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Tom,
I'd delete them too, but be sure to do a welding job to fill in the holes left behind.
Walter
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Definitely no side marker lights ... especially if the other US market markings are going. Here's an impression:
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And could not resist showing off my new car at the same location:
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Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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Hey Tom,
When I had my chrome work done I had them fill the holes for the bumper guards. They should go. I could also do without the side lights for that clean look. If you decide to put them on atleast have the front ones blink when that side blinkers are on. That way they have a purpose anyway.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Tom,
If you want the "Italian" Euro look, you need to add the directional repeaters on the front side fenders like I have on mine. These were required on all Italian imports as well as the old style rear lenses with red/amber. The new SPAL A/C blower works great. Still need to go in for a frint end alignment though
George Des
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A few years back , a friend and fellow member here sent me a picture of his 113 with the side markers .. This was when the Computer Paint Programs just came out.. I think it was called Paint Brush or something.. So , we dabbed the curser in the body color and painted out the side markers and sent it back to him , saying "Now we like it "
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Tom, personally I would ditch the side markers. It's a much cleaner look without them.
1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.
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Ok, no side markers. Thanks for the input.
1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic (restored & enhanced)
1971 280sl Tobacco Brown (low mileage stock)
1970 280sl Deep Red (Project Car)
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One more vote, ditch the side lights.
Jonny B
1967 250SL Auto
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom
Having some work done on the project car (Red 1970 280sl). Paint, mechanical, upholstery, etc. Question for the group:
I am going for the euro look, so I am thinking about no bumper guards, euro lights and no side markers. Anyone think I should keep the side markes with the euro look?
Thanks,
Tom
1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic (restored & enhanced)
1971 280sl Tobacco Brown (low mileage stock)
1970 280sl Deep Red (Project Car)
Tom, let me weigh in here with my 2 cents. Keep it consistent. If you are going for an ALL-EURO look, then make it all-Euro, with not a whit of visible US spec. That means all the lighting, bumper guards etc.
If you leave even one visible US spec item on, it will look like an unfinished kluge or someone who didn't know what they were doing, or someone who ran out of money, or like so many other of these cars we see and pick apart....
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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Michael,
You raise an interesting point. Are we talking pure aesthetics here or is there another issue like resale value or the need to be technically correct for concours showing?
Reminds me of that blue 5-spd 280 SL that Hatch had (which, incidentally, doesn't feel so expensive any more compared to what we're seeing these days.....)
That car was a Euro car, but had been restored with all the classic US add-ons like a/c, bumper guards, sidemarkers, etc. Though it was a beautiful, typical Hatch-quality car, it always rubbed me the wrong way. To Michael's point, it felt like they were trying to pass it off as something it wasn't.
In Tom's case though, we're talking about going the other way and making a US car more European.
I still say you should delete the sidemarkers, but there will certainly be telltale signs that it was a US-spec car.
I can't imagine Tom cares though. I think this was purely an aesthetic question. Plus he could always decide to add all the things he's deleting at a later date.
Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220
P.S. How about we compromise -- keep just one sidemarker light. Okay, just kidding :)
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I guess I can understand the feelings on the various sides of this issue ... to modify U.S.-version cars in order to return them to the Euro look, etc.
Personally, I rather like the U.S, look (headlights, side lights, bumper guards) ... I've heard it said they somehow make the car look "tougher, more aggressive" ... although the sleekness of the Euro look is, IMHO, fine too.
For the foreseeable future I believe I'll keep my 280SL's U.S. features. I believe that's the way the car was built, and my personal opinion is that it looks good. Eye-of-the-beholder, I suppose.
But what about air conditioning? Weren't most A/C units (i.e., Frigiking) on these cars dealer-installed in the U.S.? And if so then could that mean we should remove our A/C units if our cars didn't leave the factory with them? If so, I'm pretty sure my wife wouldn't agree.
Oh, and what about whitewall tires? I don't know, but I wonder how many European cars at the time were running white walls. I don't think too many, because I recall being in Germany in the early 70s and having a friend there say only Americans or Germans of questionable orientation would ever use whitewalls.
BTW, 35 years ago the dealer did an ugly job with a cutting tourch on my car in order to make room to install the compressor for the Frigiking unit. We recently attempted to clean up that lousy work from 35 years ago when we upgraded all the A/C components.
Tom in Boise
'71 280SL 4-spd, signal red w/lt. tan interior, restored/enhanced
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Just to add to this--there is no one Euro look. Cars destined for the Italian market have the round directional repeaters that are common items on all Italian cars of that era--Fiats, Alfa, etc.--these were required by Italian Motor Vehicle safety laws and probably still are. They were made by a number of suppliers. Also, the tail light lenses on the 230SL's had an amber outter area--I believe the French and Australian versions also had these. In the many years I spent in Europe, I never recall seeing an a/c equipped version though. The French version may even have also had a yellow headlight bulb, but I'm not sure. Point is--there is no one Euro Pagoda version. The repeaters on mine coupled with the tailights and the 5-Speed ZF readily identify it as an Italian import
George Des
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FWIW -
I have been fortunate enough to have met and interviewed Paul Bracq a few times, and the very issue of Americanizations of his vehicles came up in discussion. Interestingly, the first time it came up we were admiring a gorgeous W109 300SEL 6.3, until he pointed to the inboard turn signal indicators (bullet-style) and said "this is wrong!" very emphatically. As it turned out, even he as the designer of the car wasn't totally aware of all of the little detail changes that had to be made to the cars to comply with US regs.
As we talked more about it, and as Douglas speculated earlier, he by far preferred his own clean versions of the design, but admitted that these detail changes were interesting at the very least - especially the stacked headlights on the W108/109 cars and the US-style Pagoda headlights, and added to the character of individual cars.
He did know abut the side lights, though, and hated them.
;)
-Reed
1969 280 SL Silver/Blue Tex (enroute)
1982 240D Midnight Blue/Parchment - 108K
ex- 1971 300SEL 6.3
ex- 1984 300DT
ex- 1994 E420
ex- 1990 300CE-24
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I believe in general when people are referring to a Euro look, they mean no bumper overriders (did away with mine years ago and plugged the holes in the bumpers with antenna caps; barely noticeable), no side marker lights and euro rather than two-piece headlights. The other things (Italian turn signals, rear lights, the extra labelling on the dashboard, the soft rather than hard pockets on the inside doors etc.) are less of a worry because they are much less obvious and don't interfere with the design of the car like the other features do.
Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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<<He did know abut the side lights, though, and hated them.>>
A fellow 113 friend told me he could just envision the designer simply flipping out when they slammed those on top of his beautiful work of art..like putting glasses and a 'stach on Mona-Lisa..
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Arthur .... I remember how much you disliked my side lights .... You even sent me a "photo-shopped" image with the lights removed. I searched for the photos but they are too old to find on Mercedesshop..
Yes ... remove them. (I will remove mine next paint job).
Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, 190E 2.3-16 Kompressor
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quote:
Originally posted by Douglas
Michael,
You raise an interesting point. Are we talking pure aesthetics here or is there another issue like resale value or the need to be technically correct for concours showing?
Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220
P.S. How about we compromise -- keep just one sidemarker light. Okay, just kidding :)
Hi Doug et al.
Since I seem to be one of the few members of this specific group (not the 113 community in aggregate)who is interested in Concours showing, one might assume that this is my logic for the consistent look I suggested. This isn't the case directly.
What I find disconcerting, in a word, is "kluge" work. While we may talk about all these things we like to do, want to do, or have done to our cars, let me suggest that most of us looking to buy another 113 would be more impressed with originality then with anything else. Our posts here prove it.
When you get your hands dirty trying to fix a problem or even do routine service, and you are following the book, you'll be darned happy if your car matches the book. If you are trying to solve a lighting problem on your car, and your book tells you one thing, but you see or have another, it can be a problem. If someone somewhere along the line has fitted the "incorrect" cylinder head on your motor, and you go to buy parts, you might find yourself with some issues. This kind of malfeasance in repair makes you crazy. Personally the Euro look isn't that more of an appeal to me then what I have, but if someone wants to get rid of the bumpers, side markers, etc. so be it--just go for a consistent look.
In a former life I did all kinds of work including many an engine transplant, tranny work etc. on a variety of cars including Toyota, Datsun, MG, Austin, etc. and ran across my fair share of Mickey Mouse mechanical work with wrong parts, etc. and I vowed not to do this when working on, or paying someone to work on my 113.
As for Paul Bracq, let's remember he's the stylist--who sculpted the car in clay. He's very far removed from the manufacture. Often times the artists do one thing, but the engineers have to build it and things change--practical things, as well as compliance with a myriad of local statutes, not limited to USA!
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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Here is a photo of my car before restoration with bumper guards, US headlights and side marker reflectors. The second photo shows the same car with these items removed. Everyone can draw their own conclusions, personally I'm pleased with the decision to make these changes.
(By the way, I'm back. Two weeks in Costa Rica followed by a week fighting off Dengue Fever - got bit by the wrong mosquito. Congrats to Douglas and Hauser on the new additions and to Michael for your concour success. A lot happens around here when you disappear for a few weeks).
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) LF before restoration 6.04.JPG (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/Ed%20Cave/2005713174934_LF%20before%20restoration%206.04.JPG)
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Ed Cave
Atlanta, GA
1971 280SL
1973 911S
2004 A4 3.0
2006 GS430
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Hi Jim,
Yes , I remember .. it was all in fun and you were a great sport about it..
If I remember correctly, that is one of our fist meetings and there have been many enjoyable ones since..
It was actually a friend who had the Paint program and I sat in amazement as he re-did your car right in front of me.. wish it was that easy in Real World, huh???
Don't know if you saw the post down a little in this thread , but I did mention it..
.. the exception to the rule is your car has a ZF/5 , so you can have any kind of lights ,hanging anywhere you want, even Xmas Tree lights, and the car is will still be Cooooool...
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Arthur ... No, I had missed that post. I looked for the pictures; I found the un-edited version but not the "beautiful" rendition.
I really prefer a "top down" board where the oldest post is on top and the newest on the bottom. Unless you catch every posting, it is awkward to "catch up" with older postings on an existing conversation. I guess that I am just a creature of habit with the vBulletin software.
Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, 190E 2.3-16 Kompressor
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<<I really prefer a "top down" board where the oldest post is on top and the newest on the bottom. Unless you catch every posting, it is awkward to "catch up" with older postings on an existing conversation. >>
Boy , I couldn't agree more .. it is awkward as hell.
I belong to several Forums and this sure does take some getting use to..
..I think I may have a copy of that pic.. if I find it in a file , I will jpg it to ya...
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quote:
Originally posted by JimVillers
I really prefer a "top down" board where the oldest post is on top and the newest on the bottom. Unless you catch every posting, it is awkward to "catch up" with older postings on an existing conversation.
:D Incentive to keep up instead of catch up! :D
We talked about this and felt that with the other method, you would always be scrolling down in every thread to find new posts. We were trying to elimiate excessive scrolling.
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
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I recently joined a Volvo forum which has the top-down approach, and I noticed how much more I like our approach here - so, yes Jim, I think it is very much about what you're used to. But all in all, as Rodd indicates, we did think about it and I think the advantages of bottom-up outweigh the disadvantages.
Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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Just my 2c worth !
I think that items like bumper guards, US headlights, whitewalls are all things that can be changed by an owner at any point. You could even have a "US" kit or a "Euro" kit and change back and forth whenever you wanted with just a few hours work !
The side marker deletion requires a bit more than that and I think if anyone has the opertunity to remove them they should take it !
Last weekend we had a large car show here in Ireland and our Mercedes club stand had a former prize winning silver 280SL Euro, and beside it we had an immaculate restored 280SL US version in the identical colour combination, silver with blue interior. The owner of the US car deliberately bought a US car as he preferred the look. When we had the two side by side they really looked like two different models, and I grew to like the little details on the US version, probably because we never see them here so being different it stood out. Having said that I will keep mine EURO !
Also we see a lot of W111/112/108/109's over here equiped with the twin stacked headlights, they look great, but every time I see one with the "goldfish" bowl headlamps it really stands out for me !
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
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<We talked about this and felt that with the other method, you would always be scrolling down in every thread to find new posts. We were trying to elimiate excessive scrolling.
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I hear ya..
The other groups have a last thread click so you do not have to do any scrolling .. if there is any extra scrolling , it is with this system.. if one comes into an existing thread , he has no idea what has been said til he scrolls down to the first reply and then reads them back up..but that works too..
No complaint, I just work around it.. maybe if all the other forums had it this way, I would be more comfortable.
I always try to look at all the previous post on any group I tech on so that I do not post what someone else has already answered anyway..
It seems the other system is less prone to this..as a lot does not get read b/c the last post is always listed directly after the first.
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Arthur ..... It seems like we are in the definite minority. I just find it awkward to read a posting and then scroll up to read the next posting. If the post is long, it is scrolling down to read and up to find the next post. Like you, I try not to repeat anything that was mentioned without referencing the previous post. I will also say that I prefer the feel of vBuletin and the manner that images are shown. This forum software just feels "klunky".
Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, 190E 2.3-16 Kompressor
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KLUNKY .. a good discriptive choice..
I purposely used Awkward as not to infer correct/incorrect, but rather to discribe the "Feel" of the navigation of a thread , specially a lengthy/many reply one.
I can only compare it to reading a book, Front page to Back page,top to bottom....
without having to go to a back page somewhere in order to understand what is meant on the 3rd page..
.. but , I accept being in the minority..and prefer it.
The info is here and that is the important part.
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What are the laws in your state regarding the removal of originally required equipment? Some states that have inspections might bust you for removing the side marker lights.
That said, I have an early 280 built in 1967 and sold as a '68. The side markers are merely reflectors with no electrical hook-up. I am having the tiny screw holes filled while the car is being painted. Florida doesn't do inspections any more and I doubt the average cop will figure out the reflectors are gone. However, I am keeping the bumper guards and American headlights because I like them. I am adding a right-sde mirror too because I want one.
And, I find I do a tremendous amount of scrolling because of the bottom-up listing. It's annoying but this site is too far along to change it now.
Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe
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quote:
Originally posted by Raymond
What are the laws in your state regarding the removal of originally required equipment? Some states that have inspections might bust you for removing the side marker lights.
That said, I have an early 280 built in 1967 and sold as a '68. The side markers are merely reflectors with no electrical hook-up. I am having the tiny screw holes filled while the car is being painted. Florida doesn't do inspections any more and I doubt the average cop will figure out the reflectors are gone. However, I am keeping the bumper guards and American headlights because I like them. I am adding a right-sde mirror too because I want one.
And, I find I do a tremendous amount of scrolling because of the bottom-up listing. It's annoying but this site is too far along to change it now.
Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe
As I wanted a slightly more modern look for driving safety (remember that's why the Feds mandated this stuff anyway, like it or not!)I actually replaced the reflectors on my early '69 with markers, changed to amber directionals in the rear (and netted about $500 in the process from someone dying for all red)and changed the front headlamp assemblies to the final version which carried the wiring for the front markers. All this stuff was standard in June 1969 about 6 months after my car was made in January. I don't think any policeman anywhere keeps this kind of detailed production info, even in places where there are inspections. If anybody wants to change to more modern or less (production wise); or to a Euro-look it probably won't matter. Remember sealed beams are no longer a requirement in the USA but they were during the production of our cars.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored