Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: ctaylor738 on December 22, 2022, 17:01:29
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Thought these might be of interest. From EZPowerSteering.NL. The price is about 2150 euros, plus shipping your column to them, and back.
Cheers,
CT
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Ever since the industry went from hydraulic to electric power steering, steering recalls have risen through the roof! There is hardly one marque that did not have one.
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Resized the parts picture.
I have no horse in the race, but I think it's an option worth considering. It would be interesting to hear from someone who has installed this or similar setup.
Cheers,
CT
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It would not be a simple conversion. It would be easier for a car that does not have any power steering. Supporting a manual steering system with electrical column power steering will be an improvement, but if you have P/S, you will have to overcome the higher mechanical resistance of the disabled power steering gear in order to gain anything. Personally, I never saw a good reason for electric power steering over a hydraulic system.
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I know this system from when I has a 1936 Alvis.
Many Alvis cars of the 30s and 50s have had this Dutch system fitted successfully in the last few years.
It was good as there are few other options for those Cars, and The steering was really heavy, until you got the car moving.
Merry Christmas
Paul
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great option for those w/manual steering.
Was PS an option on our W113s?
Thankfully mine has PS.
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P/S was always an option on all W113s. Option price in Deutsche Mark (at model introduction) was 230SL: 550 DM, 250SL; 550 DM, 280SL: 510 DM
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great option for those w/manual steering.
Was PS an option on our W113s?
Thankfully mine has PS.
It adds 30 kg though..
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It adds 30 kg though..
Yes, if you wanted to take your SL racing, you would have to be concerned about the hp/kg ratio. You would not have ordered a hardtop (maybe not even a soft-top, a Kinder-Seat or a radio. 8)
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I don't think that you would be able to accommodate the EZ system under the dashboard of a 113. I fitted electric power steering to a Jensen CV8 ( Chrysler 383) which had far more room under the dashboard than a 113 and it was still a squeeze to fit it in. I used a Corsa B (GM) electric column
which is more compact than the EZ together with a controller which gave diminishing assistance as speed increased. When the system was completely switched off the car drove as before the mod .
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For a couple of years now I have been considering adding electric power steering to my restored non-PS 230SL. I have reached the age and physical condition to need it. The production "monster" steering wheel is no longer big enough (a bad joke, but true).
I have no personal experience with what follows, but there is an antique car restorer in St-Hyacinth, Quebec, a few kilometers down the St-Laurence River from Montreal (east of Montreal, Quebec), on the south side of the river, who installs a system similar to the EZ Power Steering Kit. He has installed it in a 280SL, a 190SL and a 540K as well as lots of other cars. His name is Andre Fitzback and he owns and runs Fitzback Garage. His web site is https://www.fitzbackgarage.com. The site has an English language option. The system that he installs is made in France by https://easydrivefrance.com. There are several choices, depending on the car's needs.
There is a lot of information on his web site, including a list of the cars on which he has installed the electric PS, and he has some videos on youtube (fitzback garage). The one that shows and describes the steering column modifications is 19 minutes - 27 seconds long and very detailed, although only in French. It does, however, have a subtitle option in the settings, but also only in French. At least it can be paused to look up words not understood in French. I also suspect that living so close to Montreal, he probably speaks English as well. I have not yet talked to him, however. I don't know what he charges to install but he advertizes the 12V kit for $1,980 canadian, which is worth $0.75 US per $canadian. For those financially challenged, it's about $1,500 US before taxes.
I'm still trying to decide what I will do. His garage is about two hours drive from where I live.
Tom Kizer
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Tom,
If it were me, I would choose to retrofit the MB system. All the parts are still available at reasonable prices. Only real task would be to modify the steering column shaft.
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Hi Dirk,
I have considered retrofitting a production hydraulic power steering system but finally resigned myself to a steering column electric system or nothing. The hydraulic system appears to me to be: 1) available only piecemeal and hard to find, 2) more expensive unless made up of used parts, 3) heavier, I suspect, and requires a lot of attention to the steering column. The previous are mostly my impressions, not facts known by me. I don't even know what the hydraulic system would cost, but the pieces are expensive and I would probably be nickel-and-dimed to death by having to search out parts that I didn't even know I would need.
To me, the work on the steering column shown in the Fitzback Garage youtube video and even on the EZ Power Steering website seems pretty straight-forward, and probably not too difficult for most back-yard mechanics. I could even find a local shop to do the final welding for me if I prepared and pre-fitted the parts properly. I don't have a welder and probably would screw it up if I did have one.
This electric power steering project would certainly be simpler and less fraught with risk than was the center-console air conditioning system that I designed, fabricated and pieced together for integration into the dashboard controlled heating and ventilation system of my 230SL.
Anyway, I'm still undecided but it's on my wish list. All I'm missing right now is courage and the determination to start.
Tom Kizer
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All your points are very valid, Tom.! The column EPS is really the easiest way to add P/S to a vehicle that does not have it.
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Regardless of what one thinks if the idea, there must be a BIG reason for the explosive direction change in steering technology of the worldwide auto industry (no pun intended) - MONEY!
Tom Kizer
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I had electric power steering on my former Audi a7 and like many others hated it. There was no sports feel to the steering. Not sure if that’s common in all electric steering units or just the A7.
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Regardless of what one thinks if the idea, there must be a BIG reason for the explosive direction change in steering technology of the worldwide auto industry (no pun intended) - MONEY!
Tom Kizer
I worked for a company that was heavily involved in hydraulic power steering and here is what we saw:
First, it was an engineering innovation thing. Engineers who work on new systems get all wet in the armpits when something new comes up and they create a push to bring it into production, whether it makes sense or not.
Then a major driving point was fuel consumption. The hydraulic pump had been criticized for decades for creating parasitic losses during the time it was not needed, i.e.: highway driving without steering. There were attempts to incorporate a electrically controlled clutch to switch it on and off, but the response time for when it was needed was a problem.
Finally, electric power steering could demonstrate a 5% fuel consumption improvement when the vehicle was submitted to the CAFE cycle to put the fuel consumption on the sticker. And this was deemed to be a selling point. You have to consider the following:
The CAFE cycles are run on a dynamometer. There is no steering involved, Consequently, the EPS system showed lower fuel consumption than HPS as there is no pump. As soon as you start steering, electric power steering is as bad in power consumption as hydraulic. The whole thing is paper issue and clever marketing. Very much the same that we see now with a whole EV vehicle versus ICE.
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It's also a simpler system. One alternator can drive steering, fans and what not. I have a 2015 Ford Expedition with electric steering. Isolation from road feel is a feature, and honestly an improvement over the previous model I had with hydraulic PS.
Recirculating ball PS is still the most driver friendly system.
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I emailed Fitzback Garage near Montreal and got an immediate answer back from André Fitzback. I plan to relicense my 230SL as soon as I can legally drive it without snow tires here in Quebec (March 15), and drive down to his garage for a day-trip. He offered to give me a tour and show me a few cars he has done with the electric power steering and let me experience it. He has done a 280SL but wants to see my 230SL with the added console with integrated AC, cruise control and other stuff. He wants to be sure that my suggested 10:00 or 11:00 o'clock orientation of the P/S motor from the driver's seat will work before selling me a kit. The pre-COVID19 price was $1,980 Canadian. The Post-Covid price three years later is $2,100 Canadian or about $1,530 US now. He says I'll love it. We'll see.
He seems like a nice guy. I'm looking forward to driving down to his shop (about 2 hours). I'll provide an update in March.
Tom Kizer
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I have electric power steering in my 2008 Volvo C70 and it works great. Many classic cars (including vintage American muscle cars) are being retrofitted with these Volvo electric power steering units from the junk yard, lots of forum posts and youtube videos on the process.
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Cees, is the Volvo electric power steering an electrically pumped hydraulic power steering system? It sure looks like one in internet photos. The EZ system and the EasyDrive system are steering column shaft torque electric motor assist, like the Prius, as I understand.
Tom Kizer
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Hi Tom - I don't know how it works on the Volvo. If it's the way you describe, I suppose it's a 'hybrid' system, where just like the modern throttles there is no longer a mechanical link/input to the steering as that has been replaced by an electronic impulse that then operates the hydraulic pump? Just guessing here, in any event it seems to be a popular and probably relatively inexpensive way to convert manual to power steering.
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I don't think the Volvo system is an electro-hydraulic system. These designs were intermediate designs and retained a hydraulic-assist steering gear. The only thing different to a conventional hydraulic system is that the pump is driven by an electric motor and the two are in a self-contained unit with the reservoir. These systems were popular where it was difficult to drive the pump directly by the engine.
There is always a mechanical connection in all e-steering systems. Unlike with an e-throttle, legally it is required to have this connection in case of an electrical failure. The electric motor is an "assist", just like the hydraulic pump was. If it fails, you can still steer, albeit with a higher effort.
The only "easy" and relatively "cheap" conversion from manual steering to electric is an electric column assist. It contains an electric motor and a gear drive at the steering column to provide assist. It retains the manual steering box and all linkages.
There are two different electric steering systems: The column assist and the rack assist which contains a linear motor to help move the steering rack in a rack and pinion steering design. I am not aware of an electric assist in a recirculating ball gear, like it is used in our W113s
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From everything I have found on the web, the Volvo system uses a hydraulic power steering rack and an electric motor driven hydraulic pump and hoses. Not an engine mechanically driven pump. I think I would prefer an electric motor assist on the steering column. For me, the key word to avoid is "pump".
Tom Kizer
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Having 90% decided on installing electric power steering on my 230SL, including discussing a mid-march upcoming meeting with the garage owner who will sell the kit, or install it if the car owner wants it done, I have started on a necessary cleanup of the driver's foot well volume. When I reassembled the car during the restoration, I added a center under-dash console, rear stereo speakers, front and rear cameras wired to a monitor in the console, air conditioning with controls and vents in the console, cruise control with the switch pad in the console, a cold start valve manual push button and a circuit for independent driver/passenger courtesy lights on the under-dash cover near the hood release. All those things added to the wiring that seemed to want to converge in the area around the steering column under the dash, exactly where the electric steering wants to go. I just hid it behind my new hand-made under-dash cover out of fear of not being ready for Meeting of the Clans II coming up two days after I finished the wiring in 2019. I never went back and cleaned up the wiring. Almost three years of Covid19 pandemic and recovery from a Coronary and pacemaker surgery distracted me. I'm embarrassed for the garage owner to see my birds' nest of add-on wiring so I'm making it really neat and organized before I go to visit him in March. That will also finally convince me that I really do have room to add the power steering system. The wiring is "soft and movable stuff" but I want to be sure there is room to work around the "hard and immovable stuff", like brake and clutch pedals and the things they operate that Mercedes placed there. I think it will be OK but I will know for sure in a day or two. In March, When it's all done and power steering is installed, I'll update or add a new thread to provide photos and things I've learned during the project. It's now time to go back to work.
Tom Kizer
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When I reassembled the car during the restoration, I added a center under-dash console, rear stereo speakers, front and rear cameras wired to a monitor in the console, air conditioning with controls and vents in the console, cruise control with the switch pad in the console, a cold start valve manual push button and a circuit for independent driver/passenger courtesy lights on the under-dash cover near the hood release.
I would have just bought a newer car. The quirky old simplicity of the Pagoda is what makes it fun. But, to each their own! I hope you're enjoying your modifications.
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When I retired in 2001, I found that I missed doing automotive engineering so I restored a Ferrari 365 GT 2+2, then, when finished, discovered that it was worth too much to drive it. A few hours of driving cost a few days of maintenance, repairs and detailing. I sold it and started on the basket-case Pagoda. This time I made it a really nice driver with all the modern features. I followed Jim Villers' philosophy of making everything reversible. I saved all the old parts. And yes, I love my AC, stereo, Cruise Control, and Cameras (to save the bumper chrome).
Tom Kizer.
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Is there a problem with the standard power steering on our Pagodas that I don’t know about?
Last I checked an OEM rebuilt pump is less than $300. Plug and play. That’s less than an oil change on your daily driver new Mercedes at a dealership.
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I think this discussion was brought on because of the conversion of a manual steering car to power steering. I don't think that it would make sense to convert from hydraulic p/s to e-p/s - unless you want to convert the whole car to an EV.
The only problem you could have with the hydraulic pump is a shaft seal leak or a lack of performance due to contamination and a sticking flow control valve. When I had the engine out of my 280 in 1987 I still worked for Vickers at the time. I took the pump to work and asked the guy who ran the lab to "rework" it. After testing it, he refused to do anything other than putting a new shaft seal in.
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I was going to try to price out the production system, but after realizing that I would have to pay not only shipping (out here to the boonies, mostly from Europe and the U.S.), then adding in the core charges, since mine is non-P/S. then adding the Quebec sales tax and VAT on internet purchases (another 15%), just that pump without a reservoir and a rebuilt P/S steering gear, the price was already well over $1,000 without installation. Car parts are getting way too expensive.
Tom Kizer