Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: AdelaidePagoda on May 23, 2022, 09:29:57
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Great result! USD$225,000
Early 250, very original condition, rare 5 speed, low mileage, lots of options, great color combination, well maintained with full provenance and matching numbers.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1967-mercedes-benz-250sl-40/
Over priced, underpriced or great investment?
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Overpriced by about $100K at least. But what do I know. Many other fine Pagodas sold in the $50K range on BAT recently.
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A Pagoda 5 speed will run at AUD$300,000+ here in Australia so from an Australian perspective it appears to be a reasonable price, but ours are RHD so even harder to find and has some bearing on prices. Not so sure on the good investment though.
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I followed this auction. interesting result. What always amazes me about BaT is, that people ask very basic questions about a vehicle which prove that they know very little about them, but then shell out bids in excess of 100K for it...
Overpriced?.. I could not tell. It depends a lot for who. For me, yes. But if you buy a solid 250SL 5spd and have it brought up to the same condition as this car, you would probably spend that much.
Underpriced?..Hardly. Don't think it was a "steal"
Great Investment?... Not for the buyer, but for all of us who own a lesser car, because it will make the value of ours go up.
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I also watched that auction and got the impression right away that the car was especially well preserved original and cared for with FSH , original owner and 5 spd.
It seemed all the comments were very positive and almost reverential ( save for Cees ) with the price jumping high right away.
There is another " perfect " condition red 250 SL for sale I saw. It had a big spread in The Star even, a while back. But that has been bouncing around on the market for almost 3 years at a quarter million bucks $$$ and remains unsold. Now I think it's with Motoring Investments . That seemed comparable to this BAT sold car to my amateur eye , but still remains unsold.
Yes, prior to this Pagodas seemed to be selling in the $50 - 60 K range on a regular basis.
jz
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Speaking as a long-term 230 owner, I think an early 250 is just about the perfect compromise between the nice early details of the 250 and the hardier engine of the 280. Of course, a European 280 is ideal (there was a very nice example at the AACA Nationals this past weekend), but this car stood out with a really nice color combination and great documentation. And it seems the market is mad for 5-speeds.
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Lots of money just for that extra gear.
Can buy 3 decent 280SL stick shifts for that. And get them converted to a Getrag 5-speed.
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Reflection on this nice 250SL.
Strange that a so well kept and well documented car has a aftermarket fuel cap!
The original fuel cap with the Benz Star is the icing on the cake!
Would also expect to see white wall tyres to justify the final price.
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Overpriced! Absolutely. Even in this economy. For that money, buy a 4-speed 113 and then you'll have enough money left over to buy a brand new AMG GTC! 8) 8)
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so, controversial comment I'm sure...... A manual Pagoda? Any manual Pagoda. Personally i dont get it. Perfect Automatic car but any manual Merc I have driven I have hated. Pagodas are not sport cars after all, just elegant grand tourers .
In fact apart from a "boy racer" sports car I would say Auto is the answer. Seems strange to me that having put men on the moon 50 years ago, but we still have to wiggle a stick around every few minutes to make a car go forward.
I'm sure lots of people will say otherwise. Personal choice of course.
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[whispers quietly] agreed.
Caveat… if i was on a track or gloriously empty twisty roads, I’d want a manual. Or a Motorbike. >:(
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...A manual Pagoda?...I'm sure lots of people will say otherwise. Personal choice of course.
I'm perfectly happy with my automatic. Automatic on anything. With all the traffic everywhere, shifting is just an annoyance...tell me anyone who enjoys a manual shift car in stop and go traffic and I'll tell you someone isn't being honest.
I drove one of those elusive ZF 5-speeds once and came away with "I can't believe what all the fuss is about". I'll have my automatic, thank you.
With 6-10 speed automatics being the norm these days, all computer controlled they shift better than most people do. Maybe not an F1 driver, but they are not most people.
A standard transmission offers little in the way of added fuel economy these days, they are that good. So it's really as you say, personal choice. Vroom vroom. Have fun no matter what you choose. On a Pagoda there's something for everyone. On a modern daily driver, very few can be had without an automatic...
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Since I was a kid I have always loved European cars over US models. US cars seemed big and brutish tanks compared to the svelte euro coupes that drove and handled so well. The used euro sports cars in the 70's and 80's were cheap and disposable and exotic. I'll bet I had a dozen different models over those years - from Saab 96s to Sunbeam Alpines and Rover 2000TCs and Alfas, VW bugs ,then I had a Porsche and Bimmer phase.
Hence I drove manual transmissions for the first 10 years of my driving life and I loved it. But now I am down to only one manual trans car- my 250 SL with all the others being euros albeit auto trannies. I don't drive my pagoda in traffic or stop and go situations. I drive it a lot on curving mountain roads near my home ( as JamesL opines ) where downshifts and 2nd to 3rds never fail to put a smile on my face. It is just so much more engaging.
Sterling Moss's pagoda was a stick shift. That's good enough for me.
Hey, that made me remember - what ever happened with that fellow that thought he bought Moss's 230 sl or some such ? Recall he posted here a year or two ago ?
jz
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Why are ZF 5 speeds so valuable? Because they're rare, with less than 2% of all cars built. And, unlike a ski rack or some other option, it's something that's actually useful. You can put a different 5 speed in your car and it can improve the drivability but it's still not a ZF. This is the one option that sets all other 113's apart, and whether you like them or hate them, the real money says otherwise.
I spent a couple of years in the early 90's looking for a 5 speed, back when few even knew about them. Was I wrong to do that?
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Four years ago, I replaced the 4-gear box of my '71 280SL with a new ZF 5-gear box (from the recent rerun). The first four gears of the two boxes are virtually identical so there is no real difference in acceleration/performance. The significant (to me) advantage of the 5th gear is (relatively) relaxed cruising at highway speeds: 3,200 vs 4,000 rpm at 70 mph. Of course, this also can be achieved (at a fraction of the cost) by changing the rear axle; however, in a way it is a compromise.
Regarding the 1967 250SL BAT sale, it seems overpriced to me. Less than a year ago, a fully restored at a high level (original) ZF 5-speed 280SL (silver on black leather) sold at about $175K.
Lakis Akylas
1971 280SL, anthracite gray metallic (DB172) on light gray MB tex, ZF 5-speed, limited slip differential
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so, controversial comment I'm sure...... A manual Pagoda? Any manual Pagoda. Personally i dont get it. Perfect Automatic car but any manual Merc I have driven I have hated. Pagodas are not sport cars after all, just elegant grand tourers .
In fact apart from a "boy racer" sports car I would say Auto is the answer. Seems strange to me that having put men on the moon 50 years ago, but we still have to wiggle a stick around every few minutes to make a car go forward.
I'm sure lots of people will say otherwise. Personal choice of course.
Paul, if you do not get the allure of the stick you likely never will. As you say, personal choice.
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I am with Paul and the others who vouch for an AT in the Pagoda. I do have manual transmission cars, my Corvette ZR1 has a ZF 6-speed, my 914-6 has a 5-speed, but I look at the Pagoda differently. I do not try to explore the limits of road handling and going fast in the SL. The whole suspension design with that terrible "Pendelachse" does not want me to go fast on a curvy road and frequently change gears. One other major issue is the clutch. It is a friction part and as such has limited life. As a shade-tree mechanic with limited means of changing the clutch myself in the garage, I do not want to do this. Each to his own. As some said, the Pagoda is not and never was a performance sports car and does not need a sports car transmission.
One side note: Many new non-manual transmissions are really not true "automatics" but "double clutch" designs, thus manuals that shift automatically.
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This discussion about the automatic transmission in a Pagoda reminds me that the best reason why the shift quadrant is "backwards" compared to most floor mounted automatic transmission quadrants is to make a manual shift from 4th to 3rd seem just like a 4th to 3rd shift on a manual transmission equipped car. A Pagoda may not be a performance sports car but it is rewarding to drive and does respond well to spirited driving even with an automatic transmission.
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Someday I hope to drive a Pagoda with a good working automatic - just to compare.
The last two automatic Pagodas I drove had issues with the transmission so I suggested that they get the transmission looked and and apparently both work great now. One guy was driving his car with a bad tranny for 5 years and thought that they just drove that way. Once he got it fixed he said it was like a totally different car but he sold it before I could try it out.
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The auto trans on a 113 works in conjunction with the engine. If the kick down linkage is not working the car will drive like a dog - a very old and lazy one.
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Apologies for some more off-topic content in this thread:
I found that, in addition to the kick-down being important, there is also a lot of variability between our cars in the point at which they will shift down under load. My own car for example would shift down fairly easily when I applied more throttle, or when there was say a small hill to climb. But, after the rebuilding of the engine, that changed quite a bit and the car became 'lazier', necessitating a lot more throttle, or even applying the kickdown switch or manually downshifting to get the same result. My conclusion was, since I had not touched anything on the transmission, that due to the rebuild there was more (or less, but likely more) vacuum being created in the intake plenum that the auto trans also connects to. So that, to get back to the same shifting characteristics, I would likely need to tweak the modulator that is on the trans. One of those things on my 'once I find the time' list ...
I still maintain this car sold for $100K more than it's worth, objectively and rationally. So to me it's a '$100K irrational premium'.
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Every now and then a particularly nice pagoda with a nice colour, zf box comes to BAT and the buyers go a little bonkers and get carried away. Happy days for the seller, probably on a tropical Island celebrating his/her 100k surplus windfall on a completely overbid car! Still, give it another 20 years and the new owner should break even......!
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5 years tops, not 20 years. With the increasing prices of MB parts, we are already knocking on the 225K door right now as far as restoration costs.
It may come as a shock to some but there are buyers out there who know what certain rare cars should sell for. The car sold for that price because someone was willing to pay that much for it.
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Agree with Dan on this one. A respected restorer whose name is mentioned here often told me recentley that any nut and bolt from the ground up Pagoda restoration is now in the $250k USD range and 3+ years due to the availability of parts.
Not just cars, but anything house, furniture,, is only worth what someone is willing to pay, and someone is willing to accept.
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Prices for CE vintage cars will take a nosedive in about 5-6 years when the push for EVs will further increase. The number of people who will be in the market for a gasoline powered car, especially vintage and collector cars will drastically decrease, mainly made up by those who do not drive but just keep them in storage/museum. And by then, most of them have what they want. If you are trying to make big bucks, sell as long as the prices are up. It will not last.
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Prices for CE vintage cars will take a nosedive in about 5-6 years when the push for EVs will further increase. The number of people who will be in the market for a gasoline powered car, especially vintage and collector cars will drastically decrease, mainly made up by those who do not drive but just keep them in storage/museum. And by then, most of them have what they want. If you are trying to make big bucks, sell as long as the prices are up. It will not last.
I'm not so sure about that. Electric cars have a place but I'm not the least bit interested in them. Vintage cars will always be collectable and unlike real estate, they can be moved to where the market is so they make good investments.
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Not so sure prices will drop. Try buying a 100 year old steam traction engine showman. More expensive than a pagoda. So perhaps we have another 50 to go before the price drops.
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I really wish you guys would be right, unfortunately, you are not. If your window is 5-8 years, you need to sell in that time frame to get a decent return. Parts supply and dealer support will completely try up. MBZ Classics has a liquidation auction already.
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As long as there is a demand and money to be made, there will be suppliers regardless of MB's involvement.
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MBZ Classics has a liquidation auction already.
It would be unwise to draw any conclusions whatsoever from the story of MBZ parts.
Imagine you collected a few parts for old Mercedes, and some of them were quite valuable. Now imagine, those valuable parts were not one or two, but in the hundreds, and surrounded by thousands of very rare parts, along with common used parts. Multiply that by a large number, place it into a massive warehouse in a state that has the highest rental rates in the USA. That's what MBZ bit off when they bid on a massive collection of parts. The amount of parts involved was staggering beyond imagination, and thus simply dealing with it all was a costly logistical nightmare.
They were underfunded, couldn't raise investors, couldn't get an SBA loan.
Even the liquidation is going to be a long and painful process.
This is a blip; an anomaly for which there is no equal. Don't draw conclusions from this.
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It is just another example. They are not the only ones. How many of you have encountered suppliers that do not offer parts anymore?
If you guys think the rise of EVs is not going to affect vintage car demand and prices, I hope you are not holding on to a short rope.
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It would seem that you're preaching to a choir of non believers. :)
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Might as well throw my 2c in as I consider myself unbiassed in the Automatic vs Manual debate.
I currently own both (Manual & Auto 280SL's) and I also owned a manual 250SL for many years and have driven ZF 5 speed 280SL's.
I so wanted to love the manual Pagoda as I love driving manuals.........but I must concede, that the best transmission IMO for the Pagoda is an Auto. The manual Pagoda could have been so much nicer if they had a better gearbox with better ratios. First gear is near useless and none of the gears make for a sporty change (nothing like my Alfa's).
I actually prefer driving my 190SL through the hills than the manual Pagoda - if only they used that transmission! The 250SL was quite enjoyable through 2nd and 3rd on country roads, but you can almost get the same enjoyment by manually shifting your Automatic.
I also found the ZF 5-speed to be almost the same as the 4 speed except for the 5th gear / overdrive, which is rarely used (by me anyway).
I have cars that I prefer to drive and those I prefer to look at - the Pagoda has always been my overall favourite and the one I drive the most (especially the Auto)
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I took my car to London today and hit a stretch on the 401 doing 4,000 RPM in 5th gear. The speedo said 140 KPH which is probably pretty close to what it was doing. In my car the 5 speed really works but then it's no ordinary 230SL.
If the auto is working properly it can also be a nice option.
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For sure Dan - your 'Red Rocket' is beautifully set up to be driven.
Here's another 2cents from me - my favourite Mercedes engine (hands down) the 3.5L in my W109.....oh so smooth, and has quite useable power/torque given it is a small V8 and 50+ years old.
The Pagoda is perfect for me....even it's imperfections, and as a purist, I keep my cars 100% stock.
However, how nice it would have been if a 3.5L was a factory option on a Pagoda..... (with air suspension perhaps)
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It is just another example. They are not the only ones. How many of you have encountered suppliers that do not offer parts anymore?
Yes, suppliers have come and gone over the years. When I restored my car, some of the top parts suppliers well known in the MB restoration community were Active Auto, Megaparts, Lyco Engineering, Star Quality Parts, Miller's and more. The only one I know of still around is Miller's after a few years of going quiet, almost folding, and finally being revived by new owners. I don't think any of this has to do with EVs.
The treasure trove of MB parts that MBZ ended up buying was simply way too large for a small operation to deal with; financially and logistically. I'm sure it could have been bought by others more seasoned in the business with deeper pockets, but even they probably saw the challenges. The owner/seller didn't want to deal with parting it out themselves; it would have left them with probably 80% of the parts and their goal was to move the goods out.
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Mike Simon, may I ask you your definition of " nosedive ". I want to be sure I understand.
If you mean classics will lose 50% of the value they have gained during this recent 5+ (?) year bubble, then I could agree with you.
But if you are predicting a real "crash" then I must also disagree.
jz
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I think the age group of the buyers has an important bearing on the price. With the exception of the more rare or special ones, cars tend to start losing market/buyers after around 60 years . The sought after or dream cars "of our youth " start losing appeal as the next generation moves onto their generation's sought after cars. I would Imagine the average age on this group is likely +60s . How many of us would get excited or go after a car from the 1940s or 1950s? A friend in his 70s recently sold an impeccable late 50s jaguar saloon car ( MK 1 or something like that ) and he was surprised to see the lack of interest/market versus 15 years ago when he sold the other one.Of course as referred before excluding rare or special cars that will command huge prices. I'm not sure our Pagodas are sufficiently exclusive to keep the interest of a large number of 30-40 year olds that will keep prices up.
Again always exceptions both in age of buyers or age of cars and some will always be seen as a business opportunity.. But generally I believe we are seeing the last generation of "mass appeal" for pagodas . 70s and 80s cars will be the next lot to start rising in attention and thus prices. Of course I have no proof or solid evidence to back this , just a feeling and some observed patterns locally. If they will drop 20% or 50% I don't have a clue. But can't see this value curve keep going up. I just sold my pagoda last week and so I may be unconsciously looking for an excuse to justify something I may regret having done ...
Cheers
Pedro
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Every time I hear an argument as to why Classic Car prices should drop in value - I can easily mount a converse argument as to why they should continue to rise. So far the 'rise' argument tends to hold true.
(we've all the heard the argument that combustion engines will extinct soon....... I say they will be more exclusive /desired)
I'm 56 years old. I bought my first Pagoda at the age of 44. To be honest I had no idea what one was - they were before my time and I don't recall ever seeing one in my youth. If I did see one as an 18y.o in 1984, I doubt I would have been impressed. I caught the Pagoda bug from my wife who is eleven years my junior - clearly they are before her time also.
I drive my Pagoda most weekends with a group of enthusiasts. Two are older than me and two are younger. Tomorrow I am meeting a Pagoda owner who is much younger.
I guess Beauty knows no boundaries :)
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It would seem that you're preaching to a choir of non believers. :)
Dan, I try to avoid to "preach". I also do not have the desire to be right all the time and thus attempt to "hammer my point home" with ever new arguments. As I said, I wish I was wrong here. I own almost 20 classic vehicles - 3 of them cars and 17 Motorcycles. What I see is the coming decrease in regular street use for these and consequently a decrease in desirability by a decreasing "fan base". I am poised to sell most of it withing the next 5-8 years, maybe earlier. Sure, there will be those who hoard gas-powered vehicles (and steam powered machines), but these people are a small minority and at a certain point their demand has been fulfilled.
Yes, JZ -zak - the term "nosedive" may have to be clarified or more clearly defined, but for a car that was produced in 40-50,000 examples, values of $250k or more will no longer be there.
Parts suppliers will disappear, fuel will become more expensive and more difficult to get and people who know how to fix problems will become extinct. Just look at some of the recent car brands and models that have been made obsolete. You may think they should be collectible but they are not.
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If values are the question for our Pagodas, and a window to sell them for top money, I say sell and the. Put your money into a new 2023 Corvette. It by far is the best deal price wise for sports car. Those that have a nicely restored SL could get $100k plus in todays market, and pay cash for new Corvette, and have money left over.
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Interesting discussion. I would agree that now is a good time to cash out if that's what you want to do. These bubble values won't be sustained, in my opinion forever.
The special/rare cars are a different market then our pagodas, sans maybe the quarter $ mil concours winners. Our cars are in a lesser price level so any whipsaw effect is minimized.
Will the MB Classic center ever stop supplying the parts for ours and the other classic MBs ? I cannot see it happening. It seems too lucrative.
All my kids love the car and classic cars in general, so I see a continued interest.
I don't see the EV market and gas prices have an outsized effect on the classic market.
The classic car market is like the weather ....
jz
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Will the MB Classic center ever stop supplying the parts for ours and the other classic MBs ? I cannot see it happening. It seems too lucrative.
jz
As long as they have a decent amount of parts to sell, they will. But that is the issue. If you compare what was available ten years ago and is NLA now, you see where the trend goes.
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For those worried EV’s may crash Pagoda prices, I have hedged my bets! 😀 It is like time travelling every time I swap cars