Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sphe on May 23, 2005, 10:27:23
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Well it's summer again for me, and so I thought I'd start my log back up. For those of you who don't know, I'll catch you up. My previous thread "Restoration Has Begun!" gives the details. My dad and I are restoring his 1965 230sl. We've cleaned it up, got the motor to turn over with the starter, done some serious body work, and cleaned and sludged the tank. This is where we are now. Our strategy is as follows (comments & suggestions always welcome!)
1) Attach tank to car
2) Fill tank with gas
3) Turn key
4) See what happens...
If everything starts up ok, we figure we'll tune the linkages a little bit, but then get to work on the brakes... cause they are non existant. Goal for the end of the summer is to be able to get this puppy moving safely! (aka being able to stop)
Eugene
1965 230SL, Max Speed: Zero
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You may want to consider having the fuel tank relined. You can use the search feature to find out more information about what others have done in this regard. This will ensure the tank stays in good shape in the interior. There are all kinds of gremlins that can crop up from small particles of stuff in the fuel tank.
Jonny B
1967 250SL Auto
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Thanks for the tip! However we did already line the tank. And you are right, it was amazing what kind of debris came out of that thing.
Eugene
1965 230SL, Max Speed: Zero
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Another fuel related item, is to make sure all the vent lines by the filler neck or clean and open, including the metal pipes, and connectors hoses. There are plenty of strings on that on the site, just use the search feature to pick them up, try fuel odor, gas odor, or similar
Jonny B
1967 250SL Auto
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I think it's time... If the weather's good this evening and things go smoothly we're throwin on the tank, hooking everything up, putting some gas in, and turning the key. We'll see what happens. Hopefully nothing will blow up.
Eugene
1965 230SL, Max Speed: Zero
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Before you do this, I suggest turning the engine by hand a few revolutions to make sure engine timing is not a potential problem (if it was possibly altered). Good luck, hope it's one of those "only took two turns before she fired right up!"
Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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I've turned the engine by hand before a few times, even with the starter motor. Everything sounded really good. How would i tell if the timing was altered?
Anywhoo, didn't get to the point to get it started. Got the tank on, and connected all the hoses. But the fuel sender was a little rusty, and we decided to put a little time into cleaning that up really nice. And we needed to put the fuel screen in the bottom of the tank and we accidently painted the bolt shut (damn). So once we open that up we'll be good to go. I estimate 1 or 2 more evenings of work. It should be started within the week! Possibly monday!
Eugene
1965 230SL, Max Speed: Zero
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I was just concerned that the engine timing (movement of pistons and valves etc) could be out of whack. Sounds like that is not an issue. Good luck on getting it running, a very exciting couple of seconds that will be.
Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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Someone once told me I should make a gas/oil mixture for the first start up... should I really do this? Is it ok not to? and what exactly does it do?
Eugene
1965 230SL, Max Speed: Zero
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Hi, Eugene,
Check this:
http://index.php?topic=1979,additives
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
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From what I undesrtand from that link, that our man Rodd doesn't suggest putting oil in the tank. So I'm thinkin that I dont need to...
Eugene
1965 230SL, Max Speed: Zero
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No need to indeed. Just make sure your oil pressure pegs (goes to the maximum value on the dial) when it starts running.
Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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Well. I'm still alive.
We filled the tank with 2&1/2 gallons of premium gas. Turned the key. The starter was turning the engine over but the engine wasn't firing. We tried this a few times. Depressing the gas pedal while starting didn't do anything. Car was turning over beautifully with the starter :o). But having the gas tank and everything hooked up hasn't changed anything so far. We're planning on looking into the distributor cap making sure everything is clean and such. What else should we look into? One major thing im curious about is if gas is getting to the engine. How do we test that? Did I even put enough gas in?
Eugene
1965 230SL, Max Speed: Zero
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And a sidenote, the car will start if the linkages are a little out of wack right? or at least I'll notice that the car is getting gas... cause it's possible the linkages aren't in the write positions.
Eugene
1965 230SL, Max Speed: Zero
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The owners manual indicates that if the tank was allowed to go empty, you need to put n an appreciable amount of gas to enable the car to start. I don't have the exact quantity handy, but I would go ahead and put in maybe 10 gallons.
Sometimes cracking the fuel lines at the injectors makes it easier for the gas to reach them ('bleeding the lines'). This way you will be able to tell whether gas is getting to the injectors. You should check to see whether you have a spark: take one spark plug off, put it on a spare splug and while cranking, hold that against earth to see whether it sparks. Are you sure the timing is correct?
Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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Well.
put 6 gallons in. It was recommended in the manual to put in at least 4. And still nothing. We took the hose off the output of the gas pump. Tried running it. Nothing. Hose to the pump has plenty of gas in it.
Uh oh.
Frozen fuel pump.
Eugene
1965 230SL, Max Speed: Zero
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Is the pump wired the right way, the polarity may have been reversed !
I assume the pumps runs ? You can hear it hiss with the ignition on ?
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
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Unfortunately no. There's no hiss. And im assuming, since the pump worked fine last time it ran (8 years ago) the polarity should be fine. The pump doesn't make any noise.
Eugene
1965 230SL, Max Speed: Zero
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quote:
Originally posted by Sphe
Unfortunately no. There's no hiss. And im assuming, since the pump worked fine last time it ran (8 years ago) the polarity should be fine. The pump doesn't make any noise.
Search this site for "rebuild fuel pump". You shouldn't have to spend too much money.
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
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what about the pump fuse?
number 4 I think, checked that?
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
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Im sure that's good, power was going to the pump.
Eugene
1965 230SL, Max Speed: Zero
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Maybe JA or The Doc can weigh in on this one...I seem to remember something that someone once told me about having to reset a fuel pump? That something inside needs to be reset if certain conditions existe(d) and it can mimic a dead fuel pump? Because I suffered some fuel related issues (not the pump, however) this came up...Of course I could be dreaming...
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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Eugene,
If you've got power at the pump and its not humming, it may be best to take it off and remove the bottom cover to have a look. The impellor may have seized up.
There is a filter screen in the inlet pipe adaptor and a one way valve on the outlet. These should be cleaned up too if you go this far.
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
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Eugene,
Is the pump the large OLD style pump or the small New style pump? They look similar but the new pump has the outlet pipe pointing almost vertically while the old style pump has the outlet pipe almost horizontal.
Normally you can hear the pump motor spinning.
I see you are sure there is voltage to the pump. If the brushes are worn out there will be no circuit through the pump.
The fuel pumps can be rebuilt. I have only done the large old style pump but George Des on here has rebuilt many new pumps.
On the inlet side of the pump there is a fine mesh filter and on the outlet side is a non return valve.
The filter can become badly blocked and not allow much fuel to pass.
It can be cleaned without having to remove it from the pump itself.
If the rubber pipe from the tank to the pump inlet is not horizontal (with no sagging) the pump will have trouble priming.
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
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We have checked the contacts of the pump. There is definitely power to the pump, and no hum. The pump did warm up when we were trying to start the car. It actually got quite hot. Which gets me thinking there's a motor try to move an impeller that's seized. Our local mechanic says it might be possible to free the impeller my taking a hammer and tapping the fuel pump to free up some debris, and I have emailed George Des on trying to take it apart and free up the insides.
We'll try the tapping thing today, and if that doesn't work, we'll try to take the bottom plate off, hoping the bolts aren't frozen as well.
Eugene
1965 230SL, Max Speed: Zero
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Oh, and it's s small pump, "new style" i guess.
Eugene
1965 230SL, Max Speed: Zero
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Hot damn. Well we sheared all the bolts off the pump. So I'm bringing the pump in to work, and we're going to drill the holes out and re-tap the holes. We did one hole already, and its lookin ok.
While my boss and I do this, my dad and I decided to begin looking to restore the inside of the car. Starting with the doors and seals. So that when we clean, it will stay clean. At this point we clean, and the car re infests itself with insects and spiders and dust and water.
Also I have pictures which shows the work on the back panel completed last summer, I will post those pics tonight.
Eugene
1965 230SL, Max Speed: Zero
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Before and after working on the back panel of the car. That's my smiling face by the way.
Eugene
1965 230SL, Max Speed: Zero
http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/Sphe/20056272233_Before.jpg
http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/Sphe/200562722529_upload1.jpg
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The pump is alive again! I want to say a thousand thanks to George Des for helping me with the pump. and another thousand to my boss at work and his Drill press. The pump is spinning now. I have to get the rest of the screws out and tap it. Then we'll throw it back on the car and start her up! Hopefully that was the only thing wrong.
Also I took some pictures so I'll make a fuel pump mini-tour on another thread.
Eugene
1965 230SL, Max Speed: Zero
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Eugene,
I know there are a lot of us non-expert folk watching your endeavor and silently cheering you on. I am also sure that many of us wish we had a son like you. Good luck, young man!
Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder
Sarasota FL; Alsace France
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Hey Trice, I wanna thank you for letting me know! It makes me feel good knowing that is a small gathering of "fans" if you will, that are rooting my dad and I on!
Eugene
1965 230SL, Max Speed: Zero
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Sorry for the delay! I sorta lied before, the pump was not quite alive... it was spinning but in mounting the bottom plate, the motor would seize again. In talking to George Des, he recommended a new o-ring. Now i had my doubts... how could mercedes rely on 1/32 of an inch for the pump to run properly?? Well, never doubt the master. Got a new o-ring, sprayed the impeller with a lil wd-40, and the pump is shooting gas again! Ooooh man, I'm rediculously excited. I could be 24 hours away from starting the car!!!
So, tomorrow, we mount. We start. And we see what happens. Again, a thousand thanks to George Des for walking me through this. It really is a much better alternative to a new pump.
And on a side note, I envy all of you with garages to work in. I hate working on gravel. I dont like spiders, and the quality of our work area depends on how nice a piece of cardboard we have, lol. Not complaining, just making sure all of you with a garage appreciate it. ;)
Eugene
1965 230SL, Max Speed: Zero
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So. We connected the pump. Turned on the car. Pump was spinning, but nothing was happening. So we disconnected output hose from pump. No gas. Put more gas in. No gas. So I thought, "hey maybe i have to prime the pump." how to prime the pump you ask? by putting your mouth over the tank and blowing! duh! Well I felt stupid, but it sure as hell worked.
So. We connected everything, turned car on. No start. We checked fuel filter, no gas. There was a hose loose! So tightened that sucker right up.
So. Turn on car. Gas into fuel filter. Engine still does not start!
So what now? We checked the spark plugs... but not sure if we did it correctly. If we did do it correctly, we're not getting a spark. We tested two ways. Taking the plug off the spark plug, and holding it close to the block, no spark between plug and engine. We also tried putting the spark plug in the cable, and seeing if that will spark, no spark. What do we fix then?
Lets say we were getting a spark. How do we check to see if fuel is getting to the engine properly? And if fuel is in fact getting there, what else could be wrong?
Well we made progress, so that's all i can ask for.
Eugene
1965 230SL, Max Speed: Zero
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When you check for spark with the spark plug in the wire, you need to hold the tip to ground (engine block) as well or it won't spark. How you can tell whether gas is getting to the cylinders is you will get wet spark plugs and there will be that gasoline smell that, by now, you must know only too well, coming from the cylinder when you remove the spark plug to check its condition. Maybe also fuel smell from the exhaust. Another test for this is to prime/bleed the fuel lines from the injection pump to the injectors, by cracking the lines loose where they connect to the injectors. Then turning the engine with the starter should pump fuel to the injectors and, with the lines slightly loosened, you should see the fuel reaching the injectors. When I reinstalled my engine last year, I did not have to do this but it may be worth a try. One other problem which could prevent the engine from starting of course is if the ignition timing is too far off.
Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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I tested the spark plugs the right way now, and almost unfortunately, i get a spark. All arrows are pointing to the fuel injector now. I removed one of the lines where it connects to the injector pump, spun the motor, and no gas game out. Damn.
I followed part of JA's post, and removed the bolt covering the end of the rack. I screwed a bolt in there, and it didn't budge. Moved the linkage, no movement. Turned over engine, no movement. I guess next step according to his thread is to try to make those plungers move by removing the check valves. Is there anything else that could be wrong? Maybe it's not hooked up right electrically? How can I make sure the plungers are making the pump freeze?
Eugene
1965 230SL, Max Speed: Zero
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Hello Eugene,
It sounds as if you have a classic example of a stuck rack in the injection pump. I will go through the pocedures which have always worked for me. First of all, the 230SL injection pumps do not have the ball check valves as do the 250SL and 280SL.
You can remove the six 19mm fittings on the injection pump and you will find a spring and a tappered check valve which can be removed. Keep the parts in order so they can be replaced to their exact same cylinders in the pump. With the tappered check valves removed the plungers and their cylinders are exposed. Soak everything inside down with a good penetrant. A stuck rack is usually caused by rust in the injection pump cylinders and plugers. If you turn the engine you can view the plungers in the injection pump moving up and down. If you have any which are not moving up and down then the plunger is stuck to it's cylinder. Try tapping down on the top of any stuck plunger. Be gentle a wood gulf tee or brass rod may work. It sould be small enough to fit onto the small plunger. Continue exercising and freeing up the plungers. When the plugers are all free the rack should also become free. Keep us up to date.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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I have heard the most amazing sound in the world! The sound of my car running. For just a half a second, true, but none the less, running. It was not in fact a stuck rack in the injector. The solenoid on the back was not getting power, therefore not letting fuel into the injector. I need to replace the relay that gives power to this solenoid.
Now, this is where i really need you guys. Where the heck can I get new relays for this car? And even more importantly for now, where is this relay located.
Eugene
1965 230SL, Max Speed: Zero
P.s. for clarification the relay im interested in locating/buying is the one that controls the "fuel cut off solenoid" and the solenoid that lets gas into the intake manifold
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Eugene,
you're touching on a moderately complicated part of the injection system now. First, your car should not have a fuel cut solenoid, those are only on later US-spec 280 SLs. It should have a cold start solenoid on the injection pump, though. Also the cold start valve on the intake manifold. These are controlled by the forward-most relay on the d/s inner fender. But it doesn't end there.
They are also controlled by either a thermo-switch, or thermo-time switch (depending on the year, they more or less the same thing, but one has a time cut-off and the other doesn't). At any rate, if the thermo-switch is bad, the solenoids won't operate even if the relay is good.
This whole system has been a favorite topic of discussion, so fire up the search function and start searching for things like "cold start valve", "CSV", cold start system, thermo-time switch, thermotime switch, TTS, cold start solenoid, cold start magnet, and any variations you run across in your wanderings. Study everything, there will be a quiz. Also, although the systems are generally similar, there are some detail differences between the 230 and 280 systems. Good luck and happy hunting.
George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual
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I have done all the reading I can on these solenoids and relays. I now have a few, more educated questions.
1) The solenoid on the back of the fuel injector. What is it's official name? Is power applied to it only when the car is starting? Or does the solenoid stay open while the car is running? I was under the impression that this solenoid lets gas into the fuel injector giving me the impression that it stays open all the time.
2) Where exactly is the TTS? I've read some things but it sounds like people are a little confused. ;)
3) (off topic) What are the dimensions of a correctly fitting battery?
Eugene
1965 230SL, Max Speed: Zero
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Another few questions after a confusing afternoon...
We tested the relay. It works. When we start the car, it worked once for a split second, and then stopped. If the TTS is bad, will this prevent the relay from functioning?
This is where i really get stumped. The solenoid on the back of the Fuel injector. Using a multimeter, it appeared that both poles were grounded. Connecting the two leads on the multimeter to both cables shows a connection between the two ends!? and same on the solenoid. I am really really stumped here.
Eugene
1965 230SL, Max Speed: Zero
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Eugene,
It sounds like the short running you are getting is coming from the fuel that is being injected by the cold start valve on the intake manifold. Have you cracked open your fuel injection lines where they go into the intake side to see if any fuel is getting to the fuel injectors themselves. If not, try cranking the engine with these losened up to determine if the fuel is making it at least that far. I have doubts that the solenoid magnet on the back of your FI pump is the major culprit here. There are plenty of posts on this site concerning the FI pump and how to diagnose its faults. Try doing a search and follow some of the sage advice that others have already posted. Good luck
George Des
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quote:
Originally posted by Sphe
I have done all the reading I can on these solenoids and relays. I now have a few, more educated questions.
1) The solenoid on the back of the fuel injector. What is it's official name? Is power applied to it only when the car is starting? Or does the solenoid stay open while the car is running? I was under the impression that this solenoid lets gas into the fuel injector giving me the impression that it stays open all the time.
2) Where exactly is the TTS? I've read some things but it sounds like people are a little confused. ;)
3) (off topic) What are the dimensions of a correctly fitting battery?
Eugene
1965 230SL, Max Speed: Zero
1. It is called the Cold Start Solenoid and It does allow additional fuel but only during START.
2. On a 230sl there is a small external housing just behind the Injection pump. It has a metal pipe (rubber hose goes to Inj pump thermostat housing) coming out the top and it also has the temperature probe and the TTS sticking up with wires (that go to the CSV relay) connected to it.
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
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quote:
Originally posted by Sphe
Another few questions after a confusing afternoon...
We tested the relay. It works. When we start the car, it worked once for a split second, and then stopped. If the TTS is bad, will this prevent the relay from functioning?
This is where i really get stumped. The solenoid on the back of the Fuel injector. Using a multimeter, it appeared that both poles were grounded. Connecting the two leads on the multimeter to both cables shows a connection between the two ends!? and same on the solenoid. I am really really stumped here.
Eugene
1965 230SL, Max Speed: Zero
The reason the CSV relay doesn't work a second or third time is that the heating element of the TTS has increased its internal temperature beyond 35C. Wait a while and it will fire again.
You can test the CS Valve (inlet manifold) by applying 12V from the +ve battery to the terminal. The CSV earths through it case. It should click loudly.
From what you say I think your "CSV electrical system" is working OK.
What you did to the CSS (inj pump) was a test for continuity ... sounds like it is ok too.
Clip the +ve test lead of the multimeter (set the meter to 30 volts DC) to one of the terminals of the cold start solenoid and the other multimeter lead to earth. Then watch it during start up, you should see approximately 12volts which comes from the contacts of the CSS relay.
Whether the solenoid is working or not I don't know. You may be able to hear it work.
The CSS pushes on the rack inside the Inj pump causing it to supply more fuel during start-up. Sometimes the rack becomes stuck.
Do you have a Service manual or a Haynes Manual?
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
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Yes I do have a Haynes manual
Eugene
1965 230SL, Max Speed: Zero
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Oh, my head... here's an update.
Well boys, it looks like my dad and I messed up something big time. A few wires are seemingly grounded. We had a little accident, and in trying to fire the CS solenoid, i connected the poles in reverse, and melted the ground wire. Now the wire (black with pink stripe) going to the positive of the solenoid appears grounded. And the wires that i believe are going to the TTS also appear to be grounded... this isn't good. We stripped back the insulation to try to find wires melted to the ground, and no luck. I just dont get it... im frustrated beyond frustrated.
Some divine intervention might help.
Eugene
1965 230SL, Max Speed: Zero