Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: Zazozazo on September 04, 2021, 06:24:50
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Hello all
I am interested in buying car with Vin 113044-10-012502
I need confirmation in which country this car was first registered and also body and hard top original colours together with upholstery and soft top colours.
It is a 280 SL with manual gearbox and many items of the 230 sl model , namely the door cards and the rear lights.
I wish to know if this is correct
it is a nut and bolt fully restored car.
Thank you
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You'll need to buy a data card from your dealer (€150) and then join here as a member so you can decipher it.
Or, for a fee, I'll do it. :D
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Hi!
You cannot tell the information you are looking for from the VIN number. All that VIN is telling is that your car is 280SL, LHD, manual transmission. I can add that mid-range sequential number 012502 may indicate 1969, second half.
The answers to the questions you are asking are part of the Datacard and also Paint Code Plate that is located in the car on the lateral chassis member, left side, next to relay bracket, screwed to the body by two screws, body color.
Datacard can be obtained from the dealers or from the Classic Center based upon proof of ownership. It costs ca $150.
Decoding information for the Datacard and for the paint Code Plate is part of Technical Manual on this site, you need to be a Member to access it.
I would like to encourage you to become a Full Member here - it is a small investment, but will give you access to all information needed and all expertise needed for an owner of a Pagoda. I think you will have a lot more questions about the car - all info on originality, how particular parts and assemblies should look like etc. - you will find there.
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If one googles the VIN lots of photos are available of the car. The data plate does not seem to be shown. Some elements look like a USA car ( headlight switch plate, defrost sign on heater levers). Carpet looks like square weave so this might be what you meant by 230 elements. If this was a USA car, they have changed door pockets added a VIN plate in the engine compartment, headlights, etc. — common changes to make it European
Hard door pockets are not only 230 as euro cars kept hard pockets even for later cars- if this was a USA car, then pockets have been changed to euro.
Without a data card and without seeing the data plate, no one can be certain.
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Thank you to all
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee3Dvmf79AQ
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Nice car! I do not suppose she would win a concourse, I think too many "non-conformities", but a nice one.
And: :) shock absorbers caps upside down! :)
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I would agree that it’s a nice restoration with a few aspects keeping it from being historically correct. That said, the paint, soft top and interior color choices are unique and I think work exceptionally well. Some of the most beautiful hubcaps I’ve ever seen!
The one puzzling aspect, and so easily rectified, is the lack of chrome exhaust tips.
Certainly, at the price that the seller has it listed for, it should come with its data card! As a potential buyer, I would definitely request that be provided.
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I would take a closer look...
Upholstery on soft top compartment lid (whatever this material is), carpet on the left hand side of the tunnel...
But again - looks great! I wonder if it is original upholstery/paint combination.
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Wrong (chrome) rear view mirror (August 1967 change?)
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Green 280SL interior would originally have green multi loop carpet.
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Wow thank you all , there are some high level connoisseurs here ;-)
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Wrong (chrome) rear view mirror (August 1967 change?)
Yes, Euro car by looks but with defrost label, wrong paint job behind grille, strange colors of the PS reservoir and coolant lines (maybe light), etc.
Clearly the restorer was not a Full Member here! If they were, they would finish the car better.
Normally - no big deal. For concourse winning - I am not sure...
Nice car!
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It's a nice car but if you want it to be what they say it is plan on spending some money correcting the errors. There are quite a few things that are the wrong finish that in total might take about a week to sort out. For you own comfort you should verify the paint color and interior color. By far the most important thing on our cars is the condition of the body shell. Never buy a car without having an expert in these cars look it over.
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Thank you
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This car makes a quite nice impression. I think the colour is more the 467H Sandy Beige, than the 462H Tunis Beige?
In the engine compartment I noticed some few additional things- missing the black plastic pads above the shock absorbers, or the colour of the coolant tank.
And the last thing what we do not know is the engine? Is original? Or an M130 limousine replacement?
But if the engine is still original all this are minor mistakes in my opinion. Like it was said before it takes few days to fix it.
So as usuall all is about the price? I could not find any information about the price. If you need some price information from the German market as indication please let me know.
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I do not think these pads you mentioned were used on 280SL...
Yes, i also noticed the colors of some of the parts under hood is strange. Thought it was the type of light there during shooting...
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Asking price is €159K
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It looks that, the price is also on the concourse level. As already was here said before for this price, they have to show you also the Data Card. Please ask them also for engine number and for sure we can help you to read this data.
BTW you can get on German market similar frame off restored 280SL Pagodas for much reasonable prices.
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There is a guy in Bosnia that does beautiful cars for around that as well. He is on Facebook. Safet Krupic: https://www.facebook.com/safet.krupic I believe his cover car is for sale right now.
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Thank you for this.
I will be armed with all this information before I make contact with the seller.
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You are talking about spending considerable amount of money here. I would make sure a proper pre-purchase inspection is done. Yes, it costs money, but...
There are about 10k things to be checked there. By someone knowledgeable and familiar with this type of car.
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Thank you Pawel. This will be done but it does not mean that I should not come here first and get as much insight from knowledgeable people like you ;-)
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Some of the members here get hung up on factory correctness. That is one type of 113 enthusiast (I'm one).
But, the 113 also lends itself (like the 190 SL) to some exquisite, personalized restorations. I've noticed the European restorers work with far more latitude in their finishes, mostly to add bling to the engine bay. The 113 is a great looking, very drivable and reliable (when properly restored and sorted) vintage car to be enjoyed by purists and those that just love the car for whatever reason. It will never be a classic, losing points in a collection for not being 100% factory correct.
While some members refer to Concours restoration, but not factory correct, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not aware of any 113 specific Concours judging. I know there's MBCA judging, but I'm not sure those guys know all the ins and outs of the 113. I don't think THIS club has a Concours judging where the knowledge of members here would really certify correctness of a restoration.
All that said, the car looks beautiful and if it rings your bell, it'd be hard to go wrong. Biggest issue, is it just a pretty car? Too many are gorgeous but don't run or drive worth a ****.
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Very good point Seb ( about the engine )
There is a mark on the engine 280 SE\A . I
Is this a 280 SL engine ?????????
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Very good point Seb ( about the engine )
There is a mark on the engine 280 SE/A . is this a 280 SL engine ?????????
No, no no, do not go this avenue. Casting on cylinder head is complicated, no need to get into this here. The SLs had that mark. What you need to check is the engine number. Become a Full Member - it is all there in Tech Manual.
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The original Pagoda Engine you can recognize only by the engine number- it should be 130.983-1x-xxxxx (version with 170PS) the limousine had the Numbers 130.980-1x-xxxxx
As Pawel said there were different castings- and as far I know the SE/A was for America, so version with lower compression. I think Pawel is an expert in this field? Also the fuel injection pump were different for Pagodas and the limousine and also for American Market with the Y letter on end and for the European market.
If you are attending to buy a Pagoda the best what you can do now is to become a full member and get direct access to the data base. All knowledge you can find there. And I tell you from my experience is the best place in the world.
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I think Pawel is an expert in this field?
Forget it. I just did a study trying to help out one of the Members.
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SeB,
This is how it was advertised at a previous seller:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee3Dvmf79AQ
Chassis Nr: 113044-10-012502 Engine Nr: 130983-10-004836
Exterior :Tunis Beige metallic
Interior : Green leather with correct beige carpeting.
Soft top : Green / Hard top : Tunis Beige
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If this is indeed its engine number, it is ok for a Pagoda and it is manual. Datacard is a must.
I see the green carpet with green leather combination - but who knows! Maybe it was ordered in beige.
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According to the number this engine is a Pagoda engine. You can check in the data card if this engine with this number was mounted to your Pagoda?
Due to the fact, that I have also a Pagoda in the same color I know, that the green leather was combined with silver (180H) and the two gold colors 462H and 467H.
But without the data card you can not check all this numbers.
What I can also recommend to you is the book written by G. Engelen about the Pagoda ( is in English and German).
Is very interesting story and you can find also all the data there.
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Forget it. I just did a study trying to help out one of the Members.
But Pawel I remember, that I was reading quite interesting study, what you made about all the Cylinder Heads. I think and recommend to put it here on the Wiki?
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Aha! Cylinder Heads! I can chime in. 280 SE/A is NOT a US version and is NOT low compression. It is also NOT exclusive to SL. Almost all 2.8l M130s had this head - among others. Like 280 SE/SL, 280 SEL/SL or even just plain 280.
I have at least one of each of these. Only one I have not encountered is 280/SL. There is no rhyme nor reason for which head with what marking ended up on an SL
The only way, like Pawel said, to id a 280SL engine correctly is by the engine number 130 983....
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I think that the first version of the M130 had only the 280 stamp?
But for all the other stamps is there any logic?
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Thank you SeB
The datacard, I will ask for tomorrow
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It has been determined that the car is a US first registration sent with a German type engine, Original colours are white and beige leatherette.
This will impinge heavily on the price.
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When that car was new, you could not register a car in the U.S. with an engine that did not comply with U.S. emission regulations. I find it hard to believe, that the car had a "German engine" spec.
Although, the basic bare engine was the same, there were many additions to make the car compliant.
And yes, it is correct that the early 280SLs had a "280" only head casting mark. This is in line with the "square" combustion chamber/head gasket. It changed in 1968/69.
As for the other versions, our limited knowledge does not explain any logic behind the use.
The head on my car is original to the car and rather rare. I first thought the marking was on late cars but I found cars with higher serial numbers that had more common heads.
So far, I have encountered (heard of) only two other cars (worldwide) that had the same head. One in the U.K (SL) and one in Denmark (SEL)
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But how you can recognize if the engine was European or US Spec?
I am not en expert, but as far I remember you can recognize the configuration only by the type of the fuel injection pump?
The European Pagoda engines had the Pumps with the end numbers R21, R23 and R25
and the US Spec Pagodas had pumps with the end numbers R20Y, R22Y and R24Y. With the additional solenoid and the better fine tuning possibility to fullfill the US regulations.
In the data card you can find also the country/dealer code- so based on this you can see who ordered the car and in what specification
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Perhaps you can apply the cylinder head coding, at least to some extent. Different number on camshaft I guess, as well.
The market is also on the Paint Option Plate - the one next to bracket for relays. Ask for a picture of it.
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Both the FI pump type and the camshaft could be good indicators whether it is a US or Euro spec engine.
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Zazozazo,
I believe that the presence of the heater and ventilation "instruction" plate near the controls indicates it is a chassis for the US market.
But, a picture of the plate under the hood, driver's side (on this car) near the windshield washer pump, will tell us for which market this Pagode was originally intended.
Good luck to you !!
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Iconic, yes it is a Us example , now stated by the owner. Thank you