Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: rbouch8828 on August 29, 2021, 20:40:19
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This was a discussion topic about a year ago, but I’ve just returned from a local show with some questions, so I thought I’d open it up again.
I was given a deduction for my “kick panel” speakers, saying they were “Non-OEM” but my speakers are the ones that are dealer installed using the Mercedes instructions and diagram showing where to cut the hole and how large to make it. Since the dealer installed ac does not get a deduction why would the speakers?
Another one that surprised me was a deduction for what they call a “polished valve cover”. When I removed my engine from the engine bay I cleaned it, but I never polished it. I just used a sponge and cleaning fluid to get the grease off, but I never did any polishing. The valve cover still has some unevenness to it as you would expect from that type of cleaning. So, I am at a loss to understand where they could possibly have seen a “polished” valve cover.
They gave me a deduction for an “incorrect rear view mirror” but later explained that was a mistake because they had compared my mirror with the one on Gernold’s 230SL.
The other 12 items are correct and understandable. I have no quibble with them. I just couldn’t understand these.
Anyone have thoughts or rules to offer?
Best,
RB
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Why don't you ask the judges?
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They are gone and you are here.
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As far as I know, there were two rear view mirrors, but maybe there were slight variations, I don't know. The older style was all metal, polished chrome shell, and the newer one had a satin finish stem and a black plastic back. To see the latter on an early 230SL would be wrong, to see a polished chrome unit on a later 280SL would be wrong as far as the MBCA judging standards go, which is "as delivered".
No deductions are made for safety items. So, if you changed your all red tail lamps on a 230SL to amber/red, should be no deduction. Should be no deduction for seat belts either--regardless of what kind. Added markers instead of reflectors on an early 280SL? No deduction.
Your valve cover is a mystery. There's no mistaking a fully polished aluminum casting--it's a lot of work. Many of us know that there was ONE made that way on special order for the late Frank Mallory who fell in love with the look when he saw a show car on a stand, and ordered it from the factory that way. Others have emulated that, such as the late Frank Cozza of the MBCA. It may get a minor deduction...but that is very clearly distinct from a cleaning, even an "invasive one" using an aluminum cleaner which is a strong acid; it will leave the valve cover with a "fresh out of the mold" look. See the attached for my engine rebuild from Metric 20 years ago. Clearly that's what they did, but they did NOT polish it.
There's a photo of Frank Cozza attached, and he has the air intake manifold and the valve cover all polished up nice. It's not a great or detailed snapshot, but you can see...
Our cars DID come with speakers from the factory if so ordered. But at that time, factory radios and speakers were quite costly. A dealer could make a lot more money on a client by installing a Blaupunkt Frankfurt instead of factory ordering the costly Becker Europa. The speakers from the factory are quite small, maybe 4"? I've only seen them a couple of times, they are not common. If yours didn't look like originals, and you didn't have a companion Becker stereo to match, I could see a deduction there. And, if the radio isn't a Becker, always a deduction. Beckers are the only radios supplied by the factory.
Some get annoyed at a Concours and an experience like this may leave a bad taste. I always took it as a learning experience. The only time I got annoyed was when some people intentionally fooled the judges; like at the 2005 Gemuetlecheit in Mansfield, Ohio, when a well known restorer beat me by a small margin because of his totally fabricated "deep fake" battery. It was no different than mine but tarted up to look like an old "tar top". Aside from that I always learned something, and if there was a question I went back--like you are doing here--to research it.
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Thanks for the photos. I don’t have one handy if my valve cover, but it isn’t much different than yours.
I’ve attached a photo of the kick panel speaker cover. These were the speaker covers that came with the 4” speakers that the dealers installed. I don’t know if you could order them from the factory. I know there was a Mercedes instruction sheet telling you where to cut the mounting hole and how large to cut it.
My radio is a Becker radio.
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Sure looks like the same speaker (even if a reproduction or not the same manufacturer) that would have been a factory install.
Should not have received a deduction. Neither should your valve cover if only cleaned and not polished.
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I am expecting that this topic should result in a lively discussion. I know there are members who feel it is unrewarding to show a car and rather just enjoy driving etc while others enjoy the Concours camaraderie.
Unfortunately, too many times, whether it's not being able to garner enough volunteers or simply model judging ignorance, shows result in much "annoyance"
Unfortunately every Concours has their own "rules" whether its provenance that carries weight, or "we've decided that the car boot will not be judged."
There also is a usual ignorance in differences between 230/250/280Sl (I have been dinged for having sub-frame covers,which are proper for my 230sl)
There are many options available that were dealer installed and a judge should know what these are if judging "as built" to appropriately judge an entrant
Too many times judges are bamboozled by entrants and unfortunately usually there is no recourse. A good example would be having cocoa mats in the foot-wells rather than the appropriate rubber mats as they "look better." Most also don't know the different carpets by model etc.
I guess the only answer might be "Oh Well" but I am very interested in the expected dialogue.
Lets hear your input
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I don’t think anyone can know it all. The W113 has some pretty major breaks in production that don’t coincide with the 230, 250, 280 breaks. I Think the trick going forward is to find any documentation you can showing original cars or brochures showing your points.
I am pretty sure these are the original style speakers. The covers do not screw on rather they snap on. Your’s may be later unless you can find a brochure showing your specific cover.
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Judges. ::) The main reason I have stopped to take any of my vehicles to any show. 8)
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I am expecting that this topic should result in a lively discussion.
Lets hear your input
I'm a veteran (with my car of course) of a number of Concours d'Elegance. With the exception of the MBCA Concours d'Elegance, that were once held to a bit more rigorous and ordered standard than they may be today (when there were regular national events, and our friend Peter Lesler was usually the chief judge) most of the Concours were employing "French Rules". An excerpt from a recent Boca Raton Concours for an explanation:
The Boca Raton Concours d’Elegance has changed the style of judging this year to French Concours Rules. This means that we rate the cars on the visual impact they make - the so-called "wow factor". Other criteria such as the car’s condition, authenticity, restoration, rarity, and historical importance are also considered. The main factors are the car’s style, beauty and elegance. There is no such thing as the perfect car, so Concours judges form an opinion of the car they feel is the best at the show on that particular day based on a set of criteria. The French term Concours d’Elegance means “competition of elegance.”
My car has been shown at Eyes on Design, Concours at Cranbrook, Meadow Brook Concours, Concours of America, and the Cincinnati Concours d'Elegance, all notable Concours events. It was invited to an early Hilton Head Concours, but did not attend. All of these Concours employ the aforementioned "French Rules", and because of the class of entry in each of them, I never expected to "earn" anything but a participation ribbon. In the various classes my car would be entered in, typically some version of "Post War European Open Sports" or something like that, it would be unlikely to beat a Gull Wing or 300 SL--ever. In ones without the European designation, I didn't expect to win anything when up against, say, a very rare Porsche (only 26 made), a BMW 507, or the last big-block Corvette to roll off the line. Though anything is possible and times do change, my opinion is that a Pagoda isn't going to win much of anything in a high end, French Rules Concours. So, be thankful if you are merely invited to one, and enjoy the experience. I enjoyed each and every one, met wonderful people of all kinds and saw fabulous cars. If you go to such an event with the expectation of "winning" something, you will, in all likelihood, be sorely disappointed. Have an attitude adjustment and just enjoy the day!
You may love, hate or be totally ambivalent towards the MBCA, or the equivalents in other countries, but it is these entities that produce the marque-specific Concours, generally as part of a larger event. In a Mercedes only Concours, with trained judges, that's where you will perhaps learn more about your car if you haven't done so already here on the forums. My car was entered in a number of them, and has earned first, second, third places. Dan Caron also took my car once (unbeknownst to me!) to a Mercedes-Benz Club of Canada Concours, where it won First Place. My car has also won Best of Show in at least one event, maybe more.
When the MBCA would plan national events, they were done 18 months in advance. Part of the planning was always properly planning for the Concours event, generally an event held on a Sunday. Months before the event, the Concours committee got together some model specific experts from the local chapter or adjoining chapters (for example, people from Cleveland judged events in Michigan) and a Concours judging class was held. I went to two of them, taught by Peter Lesler with assistance from others. There was minutia on models to go over, and rarely was the club short of an expert on the Pagodas, the 107s, Gull Wings, etc. Guides were prepared and the judges worked in teams. I worked with Joe Alexander and Jon Bernardi at some events, both of whom were judges as I was. (you never judged your own car).
As time has passed, the national events have all but disappeared; the Concours judging training with it, seemingly at least. The expertise has gone with it. In all cases where my car was judged, I was there, and had the ability to explain things to the judges (even on the French Rules events).
Now that I have my car back after a nearly 2-year vacation while I moved and work was done on it, if I see some events to participate in, I probably will. I doubt that there will be any MBCA events worthy of my attention, and I'm not a member any more anyway. They'd have to be events with significant European presence, as cars like ours get lost in events rich with American Muscle.
One thing I can tell you--French Rules, or Mercedes-only: detail and cleanliness. If you haven't been through the process, it's challenging. Everything--each nook and cranny needs to be spotless. Chrome needs to shine, paint needs to glow at its best. Everything must work. Remove all the non-judging items from the car, including mats and almost everything in the trunk. Chrome polish, detail spray, swabs, compressed air, various cleaning and treatments are all necessary to make your car shine. No dust, no dirt, no corrosion, no rust--these kinds of things need to be addressed. If you don't like that level of detail and cleanliness, a show isn't for you. If you don't mind that level of work, and can enjoy the day without going home with a prize, you'll have a great day.
And if you think the MB-only events are too nitpicking for your baby, be thankful you don't have a Porsche or Ferrari and are not attending the PCA or FCA national events with their Concours. Those marque-only events make the Mercedes events look like a cakewalk. Their expertise doesn't seem to be fading away; there's a LOT more people with a LOT more in-depth knowledge than can be typically found for Mercedes.
All my trophies and prizes? These dust collectors are in boxes somewhere in my office... ;)
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Thank you for taking the time to explain, I am sure it should be very educational to many.
In my original posting I referred to "not judging the boot" - that actually was at the Hilton Head Concours my car was at. (I had applied for the fun and was surprised to be accepted) That is a very large and varied show (also well organized) My Class included from 190-280SL.
As you also mentioned, I never anticipated garnering any reward but really enjoyed the automotive enthusiasts, and really large crowds there. My highlight actually was having Peter Lesler go over my car and spending time with the then MBCA Pres and Treasurer.
I anticipate the same fun at the Audrain Newport Concours in October that was lucky to be accepted for.
However I have to agree that judging has lost its authenticity, including many M-B only events. I don't fault them as "volunteerism" seems to be disappearing and its understood the difficulty of recruiting knowledgeable judges. In many cases local judges don't even know or understand the subtle differences of a 230 vs 250 or 280SL. Or many times, judges are expected to jreview a wide array of models
I have to agree the pleasure of entering a Concours is terrific, however it's also fun to be recognized for your work.
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However I have to agree that judging has lost its authenticity, including many M-B only events. I don't fault them as "volunteerism" seems to be disappearing and its understood the difficulty of recruiting knowledgeable judges...however it's also fun to be recognized for your work.
Remember, in "French Rules", judging really hasn't lost it's authenticity; it never had it to begin with. In the marque only, the judges should have been through a judging school and would learn a rudimentary knowledge of some of the differences between the three Pagoda models. And yes, for certain, with volunteerism and even joining anything on the wane, it's more challenging to put on a show. For some of the MB only Concours, (which in the USA would only be MBCA) often the organizers are scrambling for entrants. Only one entry per class gets first prize; 2nd and 3rd often are miffed for one reason or another, and those not getting anything can range from "hey that was fun!" to "what a waste of my time, these stupid judges don't know anything".
To provide an example of how interest has changed, for the MBCA Starfest in 1992 which was held in Phoenix and before my time with the club, over THIRTY cars from the Detroit area (most with a second driver or spouse) drove the 2,000+ miles, stopping in Illinois and St. Louis picking up additional members and cars along the way for a massive MB caravan. By the 2005 Gemuetlecheit we put on in Detroit, we barely had 20 members from the local section show up, and we were begging for cars for the Concours. Interest ebbed so low that by 2009, the Detroit group had not enough interest to host...and 2005 was the last national event hosted. Today, nobody is hosting and last I heard the MBCA is hiring an event planner to put on the next show. How far volunteerism has sunk...very low. We here at the Pagoda Group are quite thankful that we do have interest in getting together and since the early days of the PUBs and the early Euro events (none of which were "official events" but tangentially related to our club) to the last two major events, Charlottesville and PagodaFest San Diego, we've been blessed with a great spirit here in the club.
Famous American comedian Groucho Mark was once attributed as saying "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member." That's what's happening to many clubs for many things around the world today.
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Would it help if you had some documentation on you on some of the details you know from now on will be questioned?
If you do not have a radio on the data card as factory option and you have Becker manual on stereo installation with screws - would it not help the dialogue?
I am totally not into it - concourse and judging. I understand the frustration, but I am equally far from thinking "stupid judges" .
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I'm a veteran (with my car of course) of a number of Concours d'Elegance. With the exception of the MBCA Concours d'Elegance, that were once held to a bit more rigorous and ordered standard than they may be today (when there were regular national events, and our friend Peter Lesler was usually the chief judge) most of the Concours were employing "French Rules". An excerpt from a recent Boca Raton Concours for an explanation:
The Boca Raton Concours d’Elegance has changed the style of judging this year to French Concours Rules. This means that we rate the cars on the visual impact they make - the so-called "wow factor". Other criteria such as the car’s condition, authenticity, restoration, rarity, and historical importance are also considered. The main factors are the car’s style, beauty and elegance. There is no such thing as the perfect car, so Concours judges form an opinion of the car they feel is the best at the show on that particular day based on a set of criteria. The French term Concours d’Elegance means “competition of elegance.”
My car has been shown at Eyes on Design, Concours at Cranbrook, Meadow Brook Concours, Concours of America, and the Cincinnati Concours d'Elegance, all notable Concours events. It was invited to an early Hilton Head Concours, but did not attend. All of these Concours employ the aforementioned "French Rules", and because of the class of entry in each of them, I never expected to "earn" anything but a participation ribbon. In the various classes my car would be entered in, typically some version of "Post War European Open Sports" or something like that, it would be unlikely to beat a Gull Wing or 300 SL--ever. In ones without the European designation, I didn't expect to win anything when up against, say, a very rare Porsche (only 26 made), a BMW 507, or the last big-block Corvette to roll off the line. Though anything is possible and times do change, my opinion is that a Pagoda isn't going to win much of anything in a high end, French Rules Concours. So, be thankful if you are merely invited to one, and enjoy the experience. I enjoyed each and every one, met wonderful people of all kinds and saw fabulous cars. If you go to such an event with the expectation of "winning" something, you will, in all likelihood, be sorely disappointed. Have an attitude adjustment and just enjoy the day!
You may love, hate or be totally ambivalent towards the MBCA, or the equivalents in other countries, but it is these entities that produce the marque-specific Concours, generally as part of a larger event. In a Mercedes only Concours, with trained judges, that's where you will perhaps learn more about your car if you haven't done so already here on the forums. My car was entered in a number of them, and has earned first, second, third places. Dan Caron also took my car once (unbeknownst to me!) to a Mercedes-Benz Club of Canada Concours, where it won First Place. My car has also won Best of Show in at least one event, maybe more.
When the MBCA would plan national events, they were done 18 months in advance. Part of the planning was always properly planning for the Concours event, generally an event held on a Sunday. Months before the event, the Concours committee got together some model specific experts from the local chapter or adjoining chapters (for example, people from Cleveland judged events in Michigan) and a Concours judging class was held. I went to two of them, taught by Peter Lesler with assistance from others. There was minutia on models to go over, and rarely was the club short of an expert on the Pagodas, the 107s, Gull Wings, etc. Guides were prepared and the judges worked in teams. I worked with Joe Alexander and Jon Bernardi at some events, both of whom were judges as I was. (you never judged your own car).
As time has passed, the national events have all but disappeared; the Concours judging training with it, seemingly at least. The expertise has gone with it. In all cases where my car was judged, I was there, and had the ability to explain things to the judges (even on the French Rules events).
Now that I have my car back after a nearly 2-year vacation while I moved and work was done on it, if I see some events to participate in, I probably will. I doubt that there will be any MBCA events worthy of my attention, and I'm not a member any more anyway. They'd have to be events with significant European presence, as cars like ours get lost in events rich with American Muscle.
One thing I can tell you--French Rules, or Mercedes-only: detail and cleanliness. If you haven't been through the process, it's challenging. Everything--each nook and cranny needs to be spotless. Chrome needs to shine, paint needs to glow at its best. Everything must work. Remove all the non-judging items from the car, including mats and almost everything in the trunk. Chrome polish, detail spray, swabs, compressed air, various cleaning and treatments are all necessary to make your car shine. No dust, no dirt, no corrosion, no rust--these kinds of things need to be addressed. If you don't like that level of detail and cleanliness, a show isn't for you. If you don't mind that level of work, and can enjoy the day without going home with a prize, you'll have a great day.
And if you think the MB-only events are too nitpicking for your baby, be thankful you don't have a Porsche or Ferrari and are not attending the PCA or FCA national events with their Concours. Those marque-only events make the Mercedes events look like a cakewalk. Their expertise doesn't seem to be fading away; there's a LOT more people with a LOT more in-depth knowledge than can be typically found for Mercedes.
All my trophies and prizes? These dust collectors are in boxes somewhere in my office... ;)
All this being said, maybe you can also tell us what a Full Classic is.
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All this being said, maybe you can also tell us what a Full Classic is.
We all know Dan, that you *cringe* when anyone uses the term "Classic". Or actually you are a strict Classic guy and cringe with people banter the word classic about when for cars, it's really only Classic. For the uninformed here, it's all about the capital "C".
https://www.classiccarclub.org/approved-classics
Note that this discussion has nothing to do with "classics" but simply Concours; the thread title is "Judging Pagodas", and mostly to do with our cars at Concours. Some call Pagodas classics, but not they are not Classics. Sorry, we're not on the list...
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Thank you, Michael, for adding that link. This is all new information to me and it’s nice to know. I’ve attended Pebble Beach four times…just as a spectator. I always assumed those cars were “Classics”. By this classification, the Pininfarina 230SL, would NOT have been considered one? Is that correct?
To get back to the original question Roland had, I understand his frustration. He has worked fastidiously to get his car back to stock condition only to have points deducted for things that were correctly done and original to his car. I would second the notion to ask questions of the judges. Take the tact of wanting to learn, rather than to argue. Bring all the documentation you can. You paid an entry fee and as an exhibitor part of this process has to be to learn. I judge two very different types of competition. I appreciate being asked genuine questions and moving the sport forward by encouraging new exhibitors. When an exhibitor becomes combative, however, I shut down and refuse to engage.
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We all know Dan, that you *cringe* when anyone uses the term "Classic". Or actually you are a strict Classic guy and cringe with people banter the word classic about when for cars, it's really only Classic. For the uninformed here, it's all about the capital "C".
https://www.classiccarclub.org/approved-classics
Note that this discussion has nothing to do with "classics" but simply Concours; the thread title is "Judging Pagodas", and mostly to do with our cars at Concours. Some call Pagodas classics, but not they are not Classics. Sorry, we're not on the list...
No, not so fast. We are talking about showing cars at a Concours. A real Concours has Full Classic cars and the best of show is reserved for only those cars. If we are going to talk about accuracy in judging, part of that discussion revolves around automotive history and Classic Cars from the late '20s and '30s are what that story is all about. 113's are a different story and are not classic cars.
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Hi Dan,
reading the verbage on the Pepple Beach Concours d'Elegance web site I don't think that the organizers agree completely:
The Pebble Beach Concours d’Elegance is the flagship of Pebble Beach Automotive Week. Begun in 1950 and now considered to be the world’s premier celebration of the automobile, this is a can’t-miss event for every car enthusiast.
Each year, the finest collector cars gather on the 18th fairway of Pebble Beach Golf Links to compete to be named Best of Show — the ultimate award for automobiles. Experts critique their elegance, technical merit, and history.
Looks like you must own a "collector car" to be invited. But if you only got one Classic car most likely they'll not classify you as a collector. ;)
The decision by a yearly "expert" committee on the flavor of the different "classes" is not very transparent - would you classify a Porsche 917 as a "Full Classic" car?
https://pebblebeachconcours.net/participants/entrants/
This Wikipedia paragraph offers a reason for the class list selection rational:
".. the Pebble Beach Concours is understandably the province of silver spooners, shopping mall developers, 2019's Best of Show winner owned by a Hong Kong billionaire, if drawing the merely wealthy, and dedicated enthusiasts and those individuals and businesses that cater to their interests". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_Beach_Concours_d%27Elegance
The "concours" closer to home doesn't seem to bother what car you have as long as you pay the entry fee: https://lajollaconcours.com/motor-car-classic/#Format
[Funded in part by the San Diego Tourism Marketing District Corporation with City of San Diego Tourism Marketing District assessment funds]
It is clearly a marketing tool to get you to San Diego and perhaps lose money at the Casino. :o
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A 917 is truly a very wonderful car but it's no full classic. Full classic refers to theera of car building, mostly being pre WW2. I'm not making up the definition, it's already been around since 1952 and I'm saying that regardless of what's called classic today the stuff from the 50s and 60s don't make the cut. There were lots of great cars built during that time period but the vast majority were mass-produced and built on assembly lines so they simply don't qualify.
Yes, I do cringe when I hear someone call a modern car a classic. Mostly they don't know any better but I'd expect more from owners of higher-end cars like a pagoda. Either people want to be aware of automotive history or they make up their own. I ask, what's it going to be?
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There's CLASSIC and there's VINTAGE. The 113 is Vintage.
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No, not so fast. We are talking about showing cars at a Concours. A real Concours has Full Classic cars and the best of show is reserved for only those cars. If we are going to talk about accuracy in judging, part of that discussion revolves around automotive history and Classic Cars from the late '20s and '30s are what that story is all about. 113's are a different story and are not classic cars.
Dan, you are so WRONG here on many levels. First, read the thread title and go back to post #1: this topic is about JUDGING PAGODAS and was specifically started by our friend Roland who was questioning why, in a marque/model Concours, he was "dinged" for a polished valve cover and for having "aftermarket speakers" when in fact his valve cover was just exceptionally cleaned, not polished, and the speakers he has are about as accurate as you can get unless they were OEM from the factory. If he HAD a polished valve cover and Jensen 6x9 dual cones mounted in the back, that would be different, but he was trying to follow the rules and did an exceptionally good job at it. He was questioning those "dings" and trying to fully understand the judging process. I'm hoping that my explanation of the MBCA judging standards and process (sounds like he was at one of those events) helped him understand that his own assessment was correct and the judges probably wrong. Next time, if he isn't soured on the concept, he'll tell them directly. I'm far from the only person in our group who has been a trained MBCA judge, operating in a team on 113s, on more than one occasion, but the rest of them are silent.
What I did bring up in judging standards is the so-called French Rules, and one Concours definition. Don't expect a set of judges to know the nit-picking details of W113 accuracy. It'a about the "wow factor" and they said it themselves. All of those major Concours in the USA follow their own version of the French Rules.
What you first did is bring up your old and tired argument about Classic vs. classic. Just because a small subset of the population (there isn't even full, universal agreement within the AACA and CCCA) wants their own definition of "Classic" (they've been turned down by the USPTO, I believe) doesn't make it universally true. If you look at that list, and understand their process, sounds like a bunch of snobby old white haired white men sitting around deciding on the merits of one versus another...note that there are classics on the list that are "pending"; if the definition is so clear, there's no discussion. The reality is, of course is that there is debate. While they sit wherever, and debate whatever, the car selection committees of the various Concours and shows meet and select cars they think will bring something to the show. The list isn't relevant. For most shows, you can invite yourself, or submit yourself for invitation. Others, such as Pebble, they must come to you. Ask to be invited and it will never happen. Snobbery at its highest level. There's even a long wait list for volunteers to work Pebble...while others may scramble for help.
But this thread was NEVER about the definition of Classic, and nobody even mentioned it in this thread until you did.
Then, in your retort, you now bring up the definition of Concours, and there too, you are wrong. Read the history of Concours anywhere you choose. Literally translated, "Concours d'Elegance" is "competition of elegance" and these shows or competitions date back long before cars were invented. By your own incorrect definition, none of the major Concours in the USA could or should be called that; maybe perhaps no Concours in the world. Do you think for one moment, that Pebble, Amelia, Concours of America, Hilton Head, Cincinnati, Greenwich, etc. ONLY invite those on "the list"? No. Not even close. The oldest automotive Concours d'Elegance, more correctly, Concorso d'Eleganza Villa d'Este in Italy, has concept cars, motorcycles and others. In 2019, their Class C had a number of cars from the 1950s (late) and 1960s, including a prototype Austin Mini-Moke Beach Car, a 1958 Fiat 1200 Spyder and a 300SL Gull Wing. So why are you trying to re-define what has already been defined?
Many of us are more aware of automotive history than you might know or give us credit for. For Pete's sake, if you live in the Detroit area for 35 years (as I did), and everyone you know works in automotive, you better get with the program. If dozens of people come up to any Pagoda at any car show and call it a classic, that's just fine. None of us who display cars at shows are going to carry the latest updated version of the *Official* Classic Car list and start "educating people" on how these beautiful cars they may be admiring are not classics. We take the compliment.
We're also not about to start telling all these various Concours throughout the USA and world how wrong they are.
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This whole thread with these elaborate explanations of different opinions just adds to my reasoning why I do no longer participate in shows. And I do have several vehicles which would sure qualify to be entered under a variety of scenarios. I have a sound dislike for people in blue blazers and straw hats strolling between precious metals set up by people who didn't contribute anything to the condition of their entry other than money. 8)
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Dan, you are so WRONG here on many levels. First, read the thread title and go back to post #1: this topic is about JUDGING PAGODAS and was specifically started by our friend Roland who was questioning why, in a marque/model Concours, he was "dinged" for a polished valve cover and for having "aftermarket speakers" when in fact his valve cover was just exceptionally cleaned, not polished, and the speakers he has are about as accurate as you can get unless they were OEM from the factory. If he HAD a polished valve cover and Jensen 6x9 dual cones mounted in the back, that would be different, but he was trying to follow the rules and did an exceptionally good job at it. He was questioning those "dings" and trying to fully understand the judging process. I'm hoping that my explanation of the MBCA judging standards and process (sounds like he was at one of those events) helped him understand that his own assessment was correct and the judges probably wrong. Next time, if he isn't soured on the concept, he'll tell them directly. I'm far from the only person in our group who has been a trained MBCA judge, operating in a team on 113s, on more than one occasion, but the rest of them are silent.
What I did bring up in judging standards is the so-called French Rules, and one Concours definition. Don't expect a set of judges to know the nit-picking details of W113 accuracy. It'a about the "wow factor" and they said it themselves. All of those major Concours in the USA follow their own version of the French Rules.
What you first did is bring up your old and tired argument about Classic vs. classic. Just because a small subset of the population (there isn't even full, universal agreement within the AACA and CCCA) wants their own definition of "Classic" (they've been turned down by the USPTO, I believe) doesn't make it universally true. If you look at that list, and understand their process, sounds like a bunch of snobby old white haired white men sitting around deciding on the merits of one versus another...note that there are classics on the list that are "pending"; if the definition is so clear, there's no discussion. The reality is, of course is that there is debate. While they sit wherever, and debate whatever, the car selection committees of the various Concours and shows meet and select cars they think will bring something to the show. The list isn't relevant. For most shows, you can invite yourself, or submit yourself for invitation. Others, such as Pebble, they must come to you. Ask to be invited and it will never happen. Snobbery at its highest level. There's even a long wait list for volunteers to work Pebble...while others may scramble for help.
But this thread was NEVER about the definition of Classic, and nobody even mentioned it in this thread until you did.
Then, in your retort, you now bring up the definition of Concours, and there too, you are wrong. Read the history of Concours anywhere you choose. Literally translated, "Concours d'Elegance" is "competition of elegance" and these shows or competitions date back long before cars were invented. By your own incorrect definition, none of the major Concours in the USA could or should be called that; maybe perhaps no Concours in the world. Do you think for one moment, that Pebble, Amelia, Concours of America, Hilton Head, Cincinnati, Greenwich, etc. ONLY invite those on "the list"? No. Not even close. The oldest automotive Concours d'Elegance, more correctly, Concorso d'Eleganza Villa d'Este in Italy, has concept cars, motorcycles and others. In 2019, their Class C had a number of cars from the 1950s (late) and 1960s, including a prototype Austin Mini-Moke Beach Car, a 1958 Fiat 1200 Spyder and a 300SL Gull Wing. So why are you trying to re-define what has already been defined?
Many of us are more aware of automotive history than you might know or give us credit for. For Pete's sake, if you live in the Detroit area for 35 years (as I did), and everyone you know works in automotive, you better get with the program. If dozens of people come up to any Pagoda at any car show and call it a classic, that's just fine. None of us who display cars at shows are going to carry the latest updated version of the *Official* Classic Car list and start "educating people" on how these beautiful cars they may be admiring are not classics. We take the compliment.
We're also not about to start telling all these various Concours throughout the USA and world how wrong they are.
Imagine, some kooky hick from the backwoods of rural Ontario knowing anything at all. You, of all people, should know what a real Classic Car is. The fact that too many today seem to get this wrong and continue to pepetuate this doesn't change the facts nor take away that you don't care. You just have to be right about everything, don't you? :)
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This whole thread with these elaborate explanations of different opinions just adds to my reasoning why I do no longer participate in shows. And I do have several vehicles which would sure qualify to be entered under a variety of scenarios. I have a sound dislike for people in blue blazers and straw hats strolling between precious metals set up by people who didn't contribute anything to the condition of their entry other than money. 8)
I'm only talking about one thing; what's a real Classic Car. Everything else in this conversation is someone else's take on things.
I've seen this happen at some car shows. Someone gets parked where they don't want to be, gets questioned about something on their car, or they don't win anything and they go away in a huff. There are lots of politics at high-end car shows; even low-end shows have it and maybe even more because it's all good ole boys running it.
The 600 we took to COA should have easily won over the other 600 that was also there. Each car had its own fine points but our paint and bodywork was nearly perfect. The other guy won because he hauled up from Florida and was well known in the Concours circle so I suppose they felt obliged to give him the nod. I saw the situation for what it was and still thought it was a great day. If I took that car to any other regular show most of the spectators wouldn't even have known what it was. Many people I talked to that day had never actually seen one.
At any rate, it was nice to have spectators who actually knew what it was and showed interest in what we brought. I could have given two shits about what the judges thought.
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There are lots of politics at high-end car shows; even low-end shows have it and maybe even more because it's all good ole boys running it.
True dat. If you have your car judged, understanding the subjectivity and potential politics, then you can learn and enjoy. I judged for years and have been judged, I do understand the dynamic.
For those seeking a judging outcome for affirmation of their money or effort/skills spent, they may well be disappointed, justifiably or not. Same as if they are affirmed. The judging result may or may not have a real relationship to the car.
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Gotta jump in here. I have been judging at MBCA for quite some time, and there is always room for interpretation. There is no way that everyone can know about the details of every car. I am reasonably knowledgeable about the Pagodas, but if in doubt will usually defer to the entrant. For the speakers mounted in the kick panels I would not deduct a point. I also would not deduct for seat belts. For the rear lights I would deduct if the lights are not correct for the year. Yes, they are not as bright as today's lights, but they are still workable and useable for today. The judging standard for MBCA is "how it left the factory" with the allowance for safety.
Regarding the ongoing discussion about "Classic" Dan is fully correct in that there are very specific rules for ACCA etc for what a "Full Classic" is. The best compromise I have seen is to use the word "classic" with the lower case "c" for the generic term of "classic car". It is just kind of silly to get all hung up on using the generic term.
Judging for MBCA (I judge and teach judging for MBCA) and we try to be as objective as possible.
If the entrant can produce evidence for something different than what we think, I am more than willing to understand what it is, as it will help me to become more knowledgeable about the cars. But I do want to see the evidence.
As for the "politics" I really try to avoid that as much as possible (very, very difficult, to avoid fully). I really don't care if a car was trailered, driven, flown in, or set in place by transporter beam. It is how the car presents versus other cars on the day of the concours.
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Imagine, some kooky hick from the backwoods of rural Ontario knowing anything at all. You, of all people, should know what a real Classic Car is. The fact that too many today seem to get this wrong and continue to pepetuate this doesn't change the facts nor take away that you don't care. You just have to be right about everything, don't you? :)
Dan, you are simply not listening.
Go back to post #1, and tell me what Classic vs classic, and second, your interpretation that a Concours has to be ONLY for Classic (notice the capital C) cars brings to Roland's issue. The first may be generally accepted, but not from everyone. The second about your interpretation of Concours is simply NOT TRUE. Don't shoot the messenger Dan, I don't make this stuff up. You go tell Pebble or Ville d'Este that they are not Concours because they don't only have cars from the list. Come on, Dan. The discussion of Classic vs. classic added nothing to Roland's issue, and just brought up some kind of history that many believe, but not everyone. Your bit about what a Concours is doesn't make a whit of sense, and simply doesn't hold true for any Concours mentioned here which is a sound representation.
It has nothing to do with "me being right"; I'm stating some facts. The facts are correct.
And before you start answering and quoting again, Dan, go back to the beginning: JUDGING PAGODAS. Do you have something to add to Roland's situation?
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Gotta jump in here.
THANK YOU!
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Thanks, Johnny I agree with you. Has there been any attempt to set in place a judging standard for 113 cars? Taking into account all of the variables one would find it could be an interesting exercise. Perhaps the basic requirements first and then finer points as we go along.
I guess until we start having events that include Concours judging it will have to wait.
Club cars that I've seen judged usually went into street driven and Concours. Good chance to learn and teach at the same time.
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Thought Id throw this into the discussion. It is an excerpt from an online posting from the Audrain Musuem in Newport explaining a new class at their Concours in October:
“This year, at the 2021 Concours d’Elegance, which takes place on October 3rd, we will be reintroduced to the Luxury Class… The Luxury Class, as all others in the Concours, will be judged by a panel of well-informed, international automotive experts. They will follow what is often called "French" judging. This will involve determining how each entry exemplifies the true meaning of the category in which it is placed, be it history, sport, and for this class, luxury. Of course, originality and condition are very important, but how the car draws us in to make an emotional connection is equally interesting.”
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Dan, you are simply not listening.
Go back to post #1, and tell me what Classic vs classic, and second, your interpretation that a Concours has to be ONLY for Classic (notice the capital C) cars brings to Roland's issue. The first may be generally accepted, but not from everyone. The second about your interpretation of Concours is simply NOT TRUE. Don't shoot the messenger Dan, I don't make this stuff up. You go tell Pebble or Ville d'Este that they are not Concours because they don't only have cars from the list. Come on, Dan. The discussion of Classic vs. classic added nothing to Roland's issue, and just brought up some kind of history that many believe, but not everyone. Your bit about what a Concours is doesn't make a whit of sense, and simply doesn't hold true for any Concours I know about.
What are you going on about? Best of show has been traditionally reserved for Full Classic cars. All other cars are either judged or are on display but are still part of the Concours weekend. I've been to Meadowbrook several times and COA three times; did I see something you didn't see?
You supplied the list of Full Classic cars and now you deny their existence?
Either I haven't explained myself well enough ( even though others seem to get it ) or you're incapable of understanding complex issues. Was I wrong to think that you know about everything?
Rolland was upset because he didn't feel as though the judging was fair at an event he went to. I don't think it was fair either but no one can change that now. I think his point was well taken and received an adequate response from other members. Or did I not get that either?
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Thought Id throw this into the discussion. It is an excerpt from an online posting from the Audrain Musuem in Newport explaining a new class at their Concours in October:
“This year, at the 2021 Concours d’Elegance, which takes place on October 3rd, we will be reintroduced to the Luxury Class… The Luxury Class, as all others in the Concours, will be judged by a panel of well-informed, international automotive experts. They will follow what is often called "French" judging. This will involve determining how each entry exemplifies the true meaning of the category in which it is placed, be it history, sport, and for this class, luxury. Of course, originality and condition are very important, but how the car draws us in to make an emotional connection is equally interesting.”
Sure. These events are constantly changing in an attempt to keep the show fresh and interesting to as wide an audience as possible. All of the cars on the field are part of the overall experience be they Full Classics or American hot rods from the 50s.
When we went to the 50th-anniversary event, I French judged all the cars present and it didn't take me too long to see the nicest one there. Ray Hays green California Coupe is still the finest example I've ever seen to date.
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Allow me to wade in here and offer my opinion. Just kidding. I am not going near this one.
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I never go to pubs or clubs that have "Bouncers" on the door because I refuse to subject myself to the scrutiny of those unqualified to do so.
I've never attended a judging event but I suspect I wouldn't like it for the same reason. ;D
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I refuse to subject myself to the scrutiny of those unqualified to do so.
I've never attended a judging event but I suspect I wouldn't like it for the same reason. ;D
Great statement! My sentiments exactly.
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Years ago when attending a concours show with the local Jaguar/MG club I put my freshly restored MGB into the Judging class. My freshly restored car got last place in its class with a 73 points out of 100. I was shattered - all that money spent and I didn't even come close to placing. Once my ego was better I went over the list of demerits, read a couple articles on the art of judging and decided that I really didn't care to ever have any of my cars judged ever again.
Several years back I was invited to put my Pagoda into a judging class at a local car show and declined saying that judges probably didn't know enough about the Pagoda to give justice to the cars. I later overheard two guys talking about my car and another pagoda beside. The one guy said that my car was incorrect as all 280sl's came with bumper over riders and soft pockets on the doors. I didn't even try to correct him, he turned out to be one of the judges.....
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Years ago when attending a concours show with the local Jaguar/MG club I put my freshly restored MGB into the Judging class. My freshly restored car got last place in its class with a 73 points out of 100. I was shattered - all that money spent and I didn't even come close to placing. Once my ego was better I went over the list of demerits, read a couple articles on the art of judging and decided that I really didn't care to ever have any of my cars judged ever again.
Several years back I was invited to put my Pagoda into a judging class at a local car show and declined saying that judges probably didn't know enough about the Pagoda to give justice to the cars. I later overheard two guys talking about my car and another pagoda beside. The one guy said that my car was incorrect as all 280sl's came with bumper over riders and soft pockets on the doors. I didn't even try to correct him, he turned out to be one of the judges.....
I've been a judge at three 190SL conventions. I thought I knew a lot about 190SL's before I did this and I learned a lot from others just by working alongside those who knew more. Each part of the car was judged by a two-person team and there were three or four cars that we worked on. This probably took us about two hours to do all four cars and then the six teams all got together to compare notes on which was the best car. It was a fair system and I didn't see any funny stuff or favoritism.
When we started someone said, " Let's not be too anal about this." Someone disagreed and said that we had to be or they'd all score 100 points. When we finished, the right car won and the fourth-place car owner agreed that he needed to do more work. From what I heard, he fixed any objections and returned to other shows until his car finally took first place. Judged fairly and honestly, it's a way to bring your car up to factory new standards. The judges are supposed to be there to help you not criticize your car. If they don't know about something it's up to the owner to point it out but all of this is mostly about club-level events. Other multi-car shows tend to use French judging as they wouldn't have the time to look closely at hundreds of cars.
All of these elements provide an education in one way or another. Some go away with a positive review and others not so much.
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This is as it should be, and I am sure entrants were happy with the time taken to carefully review their car with a common set of standards.
Unfortunately, many times other factors are considered whether purposely or subliminally e.g. a professional restored car "must be correct, must be the best " etc.
Maybe a good rule would be to go over the judging sheet with each entrant to explain the "whys," which is not usually done. Some times a score sheet may be provided after but with no explanation as to why a deduction. If an explanation is done, everyone would gain information and minimize a lot of frustration of both the judge and entrant.