Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: German Dude on April 22, 2005, 02:52:43
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Ok, so my daily ride is a Diesel. I cruise the German autobahn at about 120 km/h, 140 tops. At 140, it revs at about 3,000. Which means I am used to everything between 1,500 - 3,000.
In my Pagoda, it's a totally different ballgame. I have read a lot about the engine actually craving the high-revving, but I guess I want to hear it from the 230 SL-owners out there: Juergen, don't worry, the car can take it.
Not that I want to push the old lady into the 5,000 region, but sometimes, when accelerating uphill, I have to do 4,000. I know I may sound childish but it would certainly give me more peace of mind to hear from long-time Pagoda owners who have more kms under their belt than me (5,000 happy kilometers so far - and I want that number to go way way up...)
Thanks a lot,
Juergen
64 230SL #2933, 4sp, signal red, white hard top
93 Citroen XM station wagon
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Juergen, don't worry, the car can take it.
If you've got good oil pressure, good compression, engine in good tune and retorqued cylinder head. + No cooling issues.
I regularly exercise my engine to the red line in 2nd and 3rd gears.
Happy motoring
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
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I concur !
Everyone says these cars love revs ! I've done about 65,000 km in mine and regularly see 5000 when sprinting. Most of my driving is done at 3500RPM and it loves it !
Just make siure the motor is in good condition, good compression, good oil pressure and always fresh oil !
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
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I will add my concurrence. I do not drive mine as a daily ride, but when I do get it out on the road, after it is warmed up, I will push it to the shift points. The engine was designed to run and take the high revs.
Jonny B
1967 250SL Auto
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Juergen,
Your fellow countrymen designed the 113 motors to behave a certain way, and they do. When on "our" autobahns around here, I am consistently running around 4,000 rpm, around 70-75 mph. Sometimes bursts to 90. I was once in a car (An Opel Manta) that "threw a rod" and it did this at about 40 MPH which was a low enough RPM not to cause concern. The car was not driven hard.
Don't "frame" the rpm "issue" with your knowledge of other vehicles. A large diesel engine on a ship might turn 300 RPM at cruise. The Mercedes motor used to win the 1994 Indianapolis 500 by Al Unser, Jr. idled at 2,000 RPM, cruised at 12,000 RPM, and red lined at 16,000 RPM. All by design. Different designs, different engines, different RPMS.
Many of our members can't or won't embrace this, and to that end there are those that change the rear axle ratio, or add an overdrive transmission--all to reduce the cruising RPMS which apparently buys some peace of mind, and perhaps a few less dB of engine noise as well.
Juergen, don't worry, the car can take it.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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That's what I wanted to hear.
Thank you, gentlemen. My day has been made.
Good weekend to all - and happy motoring.
Best,
Juergen
64 230SL #2933, 4sp, signal red, white hard top
93 Citroen XM station wagon
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Michael It's not that we "can't or won't embrace this" It's why run at 4000 RPM if you don’t have to, common sense tells us that less RPM is less engine wear, Remember MB did offer a 5 speed in these cars for a reason. :(
Mike Halleck Who drives his Pagoda faster at less RPM 8)
Chesterfield Mi
71 280SL
68 250SL (parts car)
94 E320 Coupe
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I've done 40,000 km's in the Pagoda so far, mostly at or around 4,000 RPM's, with regular long (1,000 km round-trip from Amsterdam to Stuttgart for example) drives averaging around 4,300 RPM's (140 KPH). I've also taken the car to close to the redline, with no worries, except I need to replace my timing chain one of these days!
Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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I have an opinion or two (of course...)
I would say its perfectly normal to run these cars at 3500-4000 in 4th gear if they are kept well-maintained. Mine purrs at about 3500 (70MPH) and has plenty left if I need it.
However, pushing it to the redline or even over 4000 in the lower gears strikes me as scary. These puppies are 40 years old and not real cheap to rebuild. I tend to treat mine a little bit gingerly -- partly out of respect for the moving parts -- and partly because getting there is often way more fun than being there....
So slow down folks and enjoy the ride!
James
63 230SL
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Hello Juergen,
It is a fact that Mercedes Engines are designed to run at continuous red line, unlike other manufacturer's engines which are designed for short bursts at red line only.
The important factor here is that the engine is in good health. Good oil pressure and a good timing chain is important. A history of good maintenance is also re-assuring.
I have watched these old high mileage engines perform at Mercedes Club track events for over thirty five years, run hard in competition. They are amazingly tough and reliable. The cars which are run and exercized hard and maintained well over the years seem to be the best running and healthiest today!
I can speak for my own experiences in competition and years of driving behind these engines. I have never pampered a healthy Mercedes engine. I have never seen a catastrophic engine failure due to high rpms on a healthy Mercedes engine, even above red line!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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One other consideration is torque and horsepower. At which RPM an engine peaks out is a major design concern and the reasoning behind the gearing in our cars. When you raise the gearing you can rob some performance and make the car sluggish. As this is one of the reasons for the demise of our little engines design, Americans wanted big lumbering pushrod motors using cubic inches to obtain power and to kill handling. It would only make sense for someone to consider making their car better by lowering RPM's at cruising speed. I personaly think the engine was made to rev and really likes it. You could change gearing but their are tradeoffs. One is throttle response and another is acceleration. Some who have Americanized their cars feel more confident and claim the car runs better. I think if this were so the original design would have geared these cars up. I think then you would need to enlarge the engine and change the cam to develope power at a lower RPM. Check where these cars develope torque and where a stock 350 V8 develops torque. That is the magic number. Run these cars and begin to hear the music these engines make when under power. Don't worry these cars can take it, your not dealing with a big American V8 with soft metal cams as in every Cheverolet made from early 60s until 1985, those engines can't handle the revs and you will eat cams {stock} in no time. Our cars can take it.
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Cees,
quote:
I've done 40,000 km's in the Pagoda so far, .....
... except I need to replace my timing chain one of these days!
Why does your engine need a new chain after only 40K km?
Did you not replace it at rebuild?
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
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Well,
I admit it: Although I am a low-rev kind of guy by trade, I can't help but love the way the Pagoda sounds when you rev it up a bit. It's a feeling of pure, unadulterated excitement. Top down, windows down, you get the feeling you're riding a rocket - going 80 km/h.
Cees, I will keep my eyes open for a Dutch Pagoda, screaming down the left lane of the A3.
Juergen
64 230SL #2933, 4sp, signal red, white hard top
93 Citroen XM station wagon
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I can't wait for all that nice engine work that will be coming along soon. Even a fairly worn out engine will run pretty well up to a point and then let go.
I have several '' death rattle '' ( just like flower pot, this one is my coppy right too ) pistons that I'd be happy to show all you guys who think you can push 40 year old engines. Once you get to a certain amount of cylinder wear the rings will crack and break. They all do this eventually even though they seem to be running normally before this happens. High shift points and prolonged RPMS will break the rings.
Only rarely will a conecting rod bearing let go and if main bearings get too loose they will spin in the block. This addds to machining costs as the block must be aligned bored to fix this.
Low or uneven compression along with lowering oil pressure is a sure sign of engine wear. Drive something like this hard and it will break eventually. You can drive them at high speed IF everything is in good shape but any failure at high speed will destroy your engine. I rarely take mine over 4,500 RPM. And it's new.
Dan Caron's
SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
slbarn.mbz.org
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I don't know if I'm getting my point across, Yes these engine's will take high RPM, But high RPM will wear them out sooner,use more gas,and increase your maintenance requirments, And why use it just to go down the freeway at 75mph. I'm sure the standard gearing in these cars was a cost/60's tech/compromise, and It aint the 60's no more. :)
Mike Halleck Who loves to see 6000rpm in the gears, but not 4000 rpm cruising
Chesterfield Mi
71 280SL
68 250SL (parts car)
94 E320 Coupe
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DO IT :) DO IT :)
You are sooooo lucky in Germany to burn rubber!!!!
I hope (one day) when the old girl is rebuilt to come over to Germany come see my Friends in Koln to just floor it!!!!
The first time I ever did over 100mph (160 kph) was one sunny Sunday morning taking the Barnsdorf/Koln Autobahn with my exchange students father in an Opel Rekord way back in 1973 Wow!
Juergen Let the old lady rip If she can do it go for it.....
Regards
Malc
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Poor Juergen!
Well we have JA17 saying the engines can take it and Dr. Benz foaming at the mouth for engine rebuild jobs! Ain't that a hoot! Sorry, I can't resist, it's long overdue time for a joke:
Captain Kirk/Joe Alexander: "Full Warp Speed, Scotty! Take the M130 to 6,000 RPM!"
Scotty/Dr. Benz: "Captain, the engine! She can't take it!"
We all have our opinions, but it should probably be acknowledged that those of us who don't mind the original gearing and say the engines can take it, ASSUME we mean an engine in good condition, w/o any piston slap, scored cylinders, bad bearings, worn timing chain, burned valves, or related engine issues. Operating any engine with these kinds of issues is a ticking alarm clock that will go off sooner or later, regardless of what RPM's you are running at 60MPH.
I dare suggest that if you have engine issues, you might be a little bit shocked to know that slowing down your engine RPM by alternative gearing scenarios will only slow down, not prevent, the inevitable. I honestly don't know how many RPM's are saved by these alternative gearing sceanarios, but don't think cruising at 3200 RPM versus 3800 RPM, for example, is going to buy you much time. But who knows? There are those that believe we are born with X number of heartbeats, and anything we can do to slow them down will extend our life.
Another thing to consider is what people are doing to these cars to achieve their lower RPMs. We all seem to be quite excited when we hear about a high price for a 113, be it at R&M, Barrett Jackson, or even a private sale. But, a 113 with a rear end from a sedan, a transmission from a Mustang and or any other such modifications only depress the prices. Originality, condition and rarity is what controls the pricing, not how many RPM's it turns on the autobahn.
Before exercising your wallet and hands on doing something to lower the RPMS (other then slowing down which is a good thing!) consider investigating just how healthy your engine is. Oil analysis, a look at the valves, leakdown tests, compression tests, etc. all can tell you a lot. If you've got 150,000 miles on the engine, maybe investing is a rebuild is money better spent? You have to make these modifications with full knowledge that you are doing it for yourself, and it will probably hinder, not help, the resale price if that interests you at all.
But the bottom line is this--if you want lower RPMS, do what you need to! Its your car!
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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Michael,
Your right at the end of the day it's Juergen's car so he can do what he wants... (Ta for the manual BTW - The old lady gets upset if I read it in bed and yes I am looking into flights!!!! :) )
I guess my feeling is that a car should be used, not wrapped up in cotton wool and only brought out on sunny days.
I spent 2 1/2 years (on and off) restoring a BMW 2002Tii which is the old lady's daily driver 60 mile round trips but she loves it, won't drive it in snow though [:p]
Juergen.... pedal to the metal
Malc :twisted:
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In the immortal words of Murray Walker (For you Brits on the board)
Go, Go, Go!!!!!
Malc :)
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Or in the words of Norton motorcycle racer Dave Croxford "I don't know how they work, I just get out on the road and screw'em down" 8)
Mike Halleck
Chesterfield Mi
71 280SL
68 250SL (parts car)
94 E320 Coupe
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quote:
Originally posted by norton
Or in the words of Norton motorcycle racer Dave Croxford "I don't know how they work, I just get out on the road and screw'em down" 8)
Mike Halleck
Chesterfield Mi
71 280SL
68 250SL (parts car)
94 E320 Coupe
AHAH! NOW perhaps, do we know where the "Norton" moniker has come from? Are you a Norton motorcycle fan? I have not a clue who Croxford is, but the quote is terrific!
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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Yes Michael I'v had 8 or 9 Nortons, still have 1 new one in a box :D , btw I put 5 speeds into a least 2 Nortons back in the day, Maybe that where my ? problem started.
Mike Halleck
Chesterfield Mi
71 280SL
68 250SL (parts car)
94 E320 Coupe
75 Norton 850 Comando Roadster
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quote:
Originally posted by norton
Yes Michael I'v had 8 or 9 Nortons, still have 1 new one in a box :D , btw I put 5 speeds into a least 2 Nortons back in the day, Maybe that where my ? problem started.
Mike Halleck
Chesterfield Mi
71 280SL
68 250SL (parts car)
94 E320 Coupe
75 Norton 850 Comando Roadster
Actually, Mike/Norton, your " ? problem" (your word ;) ) is that you chose to work on British bikes! Any mode of British transportation probably needs SOME modification to it...we all know the joke about Brits and warm beer, right? (Lucas Refrigerators) One dedicating themselves to British modes of transportation were forced to do things like transmission transplants, engine transplants, suspension transplants, etc. just to keep the darn things running. Does anyone remember the "points" on an SU fuel pump? Hydrolastic suspensions? The "two men and two hour" job of putting up the soft top on any British ragtop? A great MG, if there is such a thing, has had the lever shocks changed to conventional tube shocks. A Triumph Stag, if one can still find these things, is best fitted and generally better accepted with the Ford engine then with the abomination that Triumph called their V8. Is it any wonder why the British car industry, save for those GM :) BMW, VW, and Ford investments, just died?
BTW, between you, me, Mike Webster, Don McDonald, and a few others whose CARS I've found but whose names are elusive at the moment, we've got an emerging group of 113 owners in SE lower Michigan.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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Michael I'v also owned MGBGT's,TR4's and 6's,Sunbeam Tiger and a mini moke, as well as a hole bunch of other stuff. you forgot one of the real British car oddities, carburetors that you put OIL in.[:p]
Mike Halleck
Chesterfield Mi
71 280SL
68 250SL (parts car)
94 E320 Coupe
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Folks, just so we get back on the same page her regarding rpms: When I talk about revving her up, up (and that is way up) means 4,000. No higher than that for me - and that is plenty.
My Citroen has 270,000 km on it so far (just broken in) - and it is my true and honest intention to at least do 400,000.
Benz Dr. and Malc: I hear both of you. I agree with both of you. And as for me, I think 95km/h is a darn fine cruising speed.
Good weekend,
Juergen
64 230SL #2933, 4sp, signal red, white hard top
93 Citroen XM station wagon
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Hi Naj. So observant of you.
Joe and I discovered when we put the rebuilt engine back together in the summer of 2003, that the new timing chain I had bought was (way) too long. So we put in the one that came with the engine, "temporarily". I did buy a new chain last year, but have not yet allocated the time to put it in. Will do so shortly.
Since the rebuild, the engine has covered around 6,000 miles. Just tonite, I began doing the first major service since putting it into service, starting with the valve clearances. Some were a bit too tight. I retorqued the head first of course; it seemed a few bolts were a bit loose. I rounded off one of the valve adjuster nuts, so that slowed me down, I had to put in a better one. Taking the rocker arms off with the head installed is not so easy if you don't have a special tool like Joe made for himself.
I tried measuring compression but without an external starter switch it was rather difficult. The three cylinders I was able to measure came up to about 165 PSI. I will search old posts to find out how to make the external switch.
All spark plugs except for no. 3 were a nice light grey, No. 3 had some darker deposits.
I readjusted the front wheel bearings and, while the wheels were off, I lubed the front suspension and cleaned the brake discs with brake kleen; this can make quite a difference in braking performance in my experience.
Now that the valves are adjusted, it's onto the ignition and the air/fuel mixture. Hopefully later this week I can find the time for that, "she" has to go in for the annual safety check-up soon.
Sorry to stray so off-topic!
Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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quote:
Originally posted by norton
Michael I'v also owned MGBGT's,TR4's and 6's,Sunbeam Tiger and a mini moke, as well as a hole bunch of other stuff. you forgot one of the real British car oddities, carburetors that you put OIL in.[:p]
Mike Halleck
Chesterfield Mi
71 280SL
68 250SL (parts car)
94 E320 Coupe
Oh, yes--the good old "Skinner's Union" (SU) carbs. Actually had a set of 1.5" SU's ex '67 MGB (pre-smog)feeding the '66 Cooper S. Replaced the 42DCOE Weber which had a penchant for catching fire. Any self respecting British car mechanic keeps the SU carburetor oil in a tin right next to the imperial quart of Hydrolastic Fluid. Next to that would be a set of Whitworth sockets and spanners. On the same shelf is another box with a selection of SU carb needles for tuning the carbs. Not too far from this is a rubber mallet for the KO (knockoff) to take the wheels off of spoked Triumphs. Don't forget "+positive earth" cars...such fond memories.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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How about shock absorbers that you must check the oil level of and top up, kind of like a 230SL FI pump (only without the convenient dipstick!)? For those who have, or have had, older British cars, remember that "Positive Earth is a State of Mind!"
quote:
Originally posted by norton
Michael I'v also owned MGBGT's,TR4's and 6's,Sunbeam Tiger and a mini moke, as well as a hole bunch of other stuff. you forgot one of the real British car oddities, carburetors that you put OIL in.[:p]
Mike Halleck
Chesterfield Mi
71 280SL
68 250SL (parts car)
94 E320 Coupe
- Mike Hughes -ô¿ô-
1966 230SL Auto P/S
Havanna Brown (408)
Light Beige (181)
Cream M-B Tex (121)
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Hughes
How about shock absorbers that you must check the oil level of and top up, kind of like a 230SL FI pump (only without the convenient dipstick!)? For those who have, or have had, older British cars, remember that "Positive Earth is a State of Mind!"
What do you mean remember.....
My old MGA is still +ve earth and has lever dampers, SU's that eat more oil than the engine, and wirewheels with Knock offs!!
Funny thing about the KO is that although the car was originally exported and thus LHD the Knock offs were marked "nearside" and "offside" for RHD cars!
Still the most fun you can have at 30mph on a wet day! Like the old song "Slip Sliding away"
Malc :)
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And don't forget 2 6 volt batteries to make a 12 volt system ;)
Mike Halleck
Chesterfield Mi
71 280SL
68 250SL (parts car)
94 E320 Coupe
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Cees, you could have ground off a few links to shorten the chain. I do it all the time. Feed the chain in and join the two ends together - the right amount of slack will be taken up by the tensioner.
Oh, Mike?
I only foam at the mouth after eating Alka Selzter ~)
Dan Caron's
SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
slbarn.mbz.org
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Yes, the British used two six-volt batteries to make a 12 volt system. They pioneered 12 volt electrics at a time when six-volt batteries were the only kind commonly available! U.S. automakers were still using six-volt electrics well into the '60s...
quote:
Originally posted by norton
And don't forget 2 6 volt batteries to make a 12 volt system ;)
Mike Halleck
Chesterfield Mi
71 280SL
68 250SL (parts car)
94 E320 Coupe
- Mike Hughes -ô¿ô-
1966 230SL Auto P/S
Havanna Brown (408)
Light Beige (181)
Cream M-B Tex (121)
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Hello Cees,
Actually the new chain you recieved was not usable being too small, probably from a 280 carbureted sedan.
Yes Dan is correct, if the chain would have been too long it could easily have been shortened and used.
In the old days I used to buy original equipment new timing chain in 100 meter rolls with a pack of master links. I used a length chart I made to cut the new "bulk" chain to correct lengths. I always had a new timing chain for any Mercedes gasoline engine in stock this way. I could usually get about five timing chains from the roll.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Mike the one thing I loved about my MGBGT was that I could drive it like a mad man, redline in every gear, and still not be breaking the law. :D
Mike Halleck
Chesterfield Mi
71 280SL
68 250SL (parts car)
94 E320 Coupe
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Please don't knock the SU carburetors: I had them on my Jaguar XK120 and on my Mark VII. I would drive those cars at 200 km/hr on the autobahn. There was less traffic in the '50's. Because I installed the 3.27 rear end in my 280SL, I often push it into the higher RPM in 2nd or 3rd, usually when entering the freeway. We have these stoplights at some on-ramps. It's not unusual to push it to 5,500 rpm in second gear. It accelerates quite nicely, thank you. On the freeway I cruise between 3000RPM and 3800 RPM. That is 62MPH to 78MPH.
'69 280SL,Signal Red,007537,tired engineer, West-Seattle, WA(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/theengineer/20041031121053_Drehstern.gif)
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Hi Joe - I started wondering about it being too long or too short after Dan's reply. So too short it was. But I think 100 meters for 5 chains is a bit much?! ;-)
Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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Cees,
I thought you had enough engines to use up 100m.
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
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Oops,
Your right Cees, I meant 10 meter rolls of chain!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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No Naj, but 30 meters would just be enough!
Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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Chaps,
You are all missing the point re the wonders of British automotive engineering.....
Yes, SU carbs set up right are wonderful
Yes, lever arm shocks are cr*p
Yes, a Mini gave you powdered spine within 20 miles
Yes , Lucas deserves the title "Prince of darkness"
But.....
You could not hide in your shed/garage telling her in doors you were fixing the car if it all work all of the time....
Well that's my excuse [:p]
Malc