Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: getsmart on February 28, 2021, 06:11:47
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Hi all,
My frame up restoration continues and I'm at the stage of looking at the restoration of my manual steering box.
Having never driven the car and not much experience driving a Pagoda I'm seeking fellow Pagoda owners opinions of the feel of manual steering vs power steering and not just how much heavier the mnaul gearbox steering is but how much feel it has. If you've driven both kinds I'd be keen to hear on your opinions.
I hadn't really thought that I'd change over to power steering but still can at this stage. I guess there's nothing like driving a few though to really know.
If I was to convert, from my reading of previous posts on changeover I need the pump, brackets, belt and to shorten the steering column shaft. If anyone else has anythng to add please don't hesitate. Love this forum!!!! Or more precisely the willingness of all to share knowledge and help!!!
My 230sl is March 1964 build.
Regards to all,
Joe
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Hey mate!
I have both (p/s in the w111) ... Other than parking I really like the manual. I personally think the power steering is a little light. There much more feel in the manual.
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Hey mate!
I have both (p/s in the w111) ... Other than parking I really like the manual. I personally think the power steering is a little light. There much more feel in the manual.
Thanks Col, I had thought that yours was manual - appreciate the feedback !
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You didn't list it, but I am sure you know, you also need the steering box. I have never seen a manual steering SL, they are obviously quite rare and maybe limited to 230s, but you may also need linkages on the front axle from the steering box pitman arm to the knuckles. I am not sure, just worth checking.
If you dig up some contemporary test reports, you will find that they were mostly very positive about the power steering. They called it precise and having a good feel. Power steering is mainly a parking aid.. At higher vehicle speeds, the force required to turn the wheels decreases significantly and in a manual steering car, you may not miss p/s. The steering valve and torsion bar are usually tuned to consider this and there is less power assist around +/- 90° steering wheel angle.
If you are concerned about it at all, the conversion may affect the value. Which way, however, may be a point of discussion. While it is not original and it may reduce the value, a potential buyer may not consider it desirable to have a manual car. If you can find one, drive a p/s car and then make the decision.
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Although it adds some complexity and weight to the engine, power steering is desirable to most owners. All could be had with standard manual steering. The 230 Sls, by far, were the most common with manual steering. The different length of the steering column with manual or power steering seem to be the biggest hurtle to cross when doing a conversion. Most of the other components of the system are shared with other Mercedes sedans of the era. The other unique part used is the pitman arm on the steering box itself, which I believe is specific to W113 cars.
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Probably depends a lot on what the intent of the car is - show, transportation, or driving pleasure.
I have a manual, and like it a lot. Can't say that I have driven a power steering 113, but every other car I have driven with a power steering unit provides an altered road feel which I personally do not like. When I hop into the 230SL after having driven the '99 SL500 or the '89 BMW 6534CSi, I really appreciate how lovely and special the SL steering is (manual).
My whole car has been tuned over the years for pure driving pleasure. If that is not the intent with this car, other considerations come into play. If it is being restored for sale, likely best to cater to the average buyer / collector.
If you look at the model evolution over time, the initial 230SL was more light weight with less amenities - more a driver in my opinion. Later 113 versions added more goodies, padding, and amenities, and became more transportation elegance oriented rather than driver oriented. The 350SL gives a really good perspective of the overall direction Mercedes was heading with the SL line.
Not trying to talk down anyone's vehicle or use objectives with the 113. All are stunners, and everyone should use them as they see fit. One of the most beautiful and well built cars every made, from my perspective.
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My 68 280 was delivered in Europe with manual steering. I drove the car that way for the first three years of ownership. After an engine bay fire required major repairs I decided to do the conversion. Initially I regretted the change believing that the p.s. box wasn’t as precise. However it was later determined that the new box wasn’t sufficiently tightened down when mounted. Once that was corrected I was much happier with the change. I don’t really notice any loss of precision at speed and sure appreciate the power assist around town. I kept the original steering column just in case.
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I like performance, simplicity and light weight. So standard steering, standard transmission, no AC is fine with me. However, I am sure this is not the norm or the best for re-sale.
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Power steering is all about tuning. It can be light around center and hard at full wheel turn or the other way around or light all the way or hard all the way.
Usually there is an extensive research about key target customer profile. If the car is mostly intended for driving around town and "shopping" the tuning is different than for spirited, fast driving.
When Porsche decided to use power steering for the first time on a "911" platform, it was almost a necessity ins spite of the car being light on the front end. the cornering speeds were so high, it became too much of an effort to steer manually. Even for guys with burly, hairy forearms!
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I have owned my 280SL for over thirty years. Even though it is a late-production (12/70) example, it came from the factory with manual steering and I used it as such until about fifteen years ago when I had it converted to power steering. Parking with manual steering is difficult, particularly with the 205/70 tires I have. When tuned properly, power steering is excellent at all speeds, almost like a modern car. I highly recommend it.
Lakis Akylas
1971 280 SL, ZF 5-speed, power steering, limited slip differential, Anthracite Gray Metallic (DB 172) over light gray MB Tex
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My 08/70 280SL came with manual steering when delivered new in Canada. I have all the pieces to convert it to power steering and when finished the restoration it will have PS. I purchased the car when I was 30 and at that time it was no issue to park and drive but 30+ years later I am not about to fight with the car. The manual transmission in the car will always be in place.
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I like performance, simplicity and light weight. So standard steering, standard transmission, no AC is fine with me. However, I am sure this is not the norm or the best for re-sale.
I agree with Joe. I ordered mine this way and have never regretted it. Can't beat the feel when driving somewhat aggressively!
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Brilliant replies and perspectives, a big thankyou to all and this wonderful forum. I'll probably stay with the manual steering box for now.
Rgds to all, Joe
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I have had my manual steering W111 220SE Cabrio for 30 years and initially thought that parking was a beast but manageable thanks to the huge steering wheel. Fast forward 30 years and after a long trip involving lots of maneuvering in tight garages, I threw in the towel and decided to convert to an electric Japanese developed power system. No regrets, the car feels perfect at all speeds and I no longer dread the tiny European hotel garages. I guess that the tradeoffs to consider are drivability vs originality and cost. This is a decision all owners need to make for themselves. In my case, when the time comes to sell the car and I should lose a few 1000 Dollars or Euros because of the upgrade, it will not a consideration when compared to the increased pleasure I have had over the years. The upgrade is completely reversible by installing a new steering column and removing the motor, control module and wire harness. I am attaching a few photos sowing the visible parts of the installation. I also added a USB charger and put an original hazard switch there, rather than drilling the dash. I am still working on the aesthetics and will make a new underdash cover. The radio is also a leftover from the PO of 30 years ago, to be replaced soon.