Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: CromeYellow on February 02, 2021, 00:05:41
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The car has been pretty much been fully restored as far as engine rebuild and also re-coated, re-painted the underside and engine compartment. Put in about $7000. worth of genuine Mercedes parts along the way. I have avoided putting even one bolt into the car that wasn't brand new genuine Mercedes.
The mechanic I am working with wants $15,000. to redo the entire brake system and AC. This would be with genuine brand new Mercedes parts, and includes replacing pretty much everything A to Z according to the attached estimate. He says that between waiting for parts to arrive and the work itself will take eight weeks.
BUT - I understand that I could put in something like Cardone remanufactured parts and these would be the same as Mercedes genuine? Where can we get such parts.
Attached is the mechanic's estimate. If anyone in the Southern California area wants to do the job, send me a PM. I am being told that $15,000. is high.
Below are just a few of dozens of pictures I have of the process, which has been ongoing in earnest for about eight months.
(https://i.imgur.com/ZnSkiPDl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/j6eVAz6l.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/tQ9nZh3l.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/LJRsZPYl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/vAW6ekbl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/PP80VW4l.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/S7y0ALMl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ftylurbl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/as3uOH6l.jpg)
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Thanks for the great photos, will help me for orientations of several parts.
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I don't know about the AC system, but just a few years ago I bought all new ATE calipers for as I recall around EUR 1,000. Brake lines, pads, discs etc should not cost that much and the labor maybe a day at most? Master brake cylinder and booster may be pricey from Mercedes, but normal prices for those would be a few hundred. So figure $2,200 in parts for the brakes, and $800 labor if around $100/hr, so $3,000 for the brakes? I replaced the discs and calipers myself, not a complicated job.
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If this was my project, I would at least ask to have the estimate separated into parts, labor, AC and Brakes.
With the AC, a complete kit from Buds Benz is around $2500 not including the special pulley needed if adding a compressor but you are upgrading an existing system so the pulley is already there. The only thing practically reusable from an existing AC system would be the under dash bulkhead. If the evaporator does not pass a pressure test it should be replaced. If the evaporator gets reused, it must be properly flushed to remove any refrigerant oil from the previous setup especially if R-12 was used as the refrigerant.
Other components to replace are the condenser, compressor (replace York with Sanden Rotary), replace blower with new Spal, new hoses, drier, evaporator thermostat and expansion valve.
Additional upgrades worthy of consideration would be the Sedan Compressor bracket conversion and addressing the already hot running 280 engine temps.
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The background on this car, is that I am the first owner (at least, it has always been in our family, I am the second generation owner within the same family).
Some years ago I drove the car without enough oil in the engine and top part of the engine blew. Two mechanics and years later, the car was returned to me with many parts missing, the engine put back together not quite right, and this third mechanic did the work of figuring out what was missing, replacing all that with all genuine Mercedes brand new parts, and doing the complete engine rebuild and recoating and repainting of the underside after sand blasting and cleaning all the parts. It is in the process of looking great again.
The first two mechanics charged me very little, but accomplished less than nothing. This third mechanic has charge me real money, but delivered real results.
Because the car sat around so long, years, now 3/4 calipers are frozen, and the mechanic feels that it would be unsafe to do anything less than replace everything A to Z in the brake system.
As far as the AC, the hoses all cracked over the years of sitting idle, and he feels that that system too should be replaced A to Z, and converted to R134.
I don't want to put anything in the car that's not genuine Mercedes, and am willing to pay the premium. But I understand that Cardone sells remanufactured Mercedes parts that are genuine, at a fraction of the brand new price. How do I get these Cardone parts?
I don't have a problem with the complete re-do - just with the $15K price I am being quoted.
This guy has done a great job, but I think the project is getting over budget. Compared to how much he charged me for the more difficult and more time consuming work he did before, I think $15K may be excessive for replacement of brake and AC system.
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Rockauto sells front calipers rebuilt by Cardone. I could not fine rears so had a rebuild shop rebuild mine with Mercedes rebuild kit.
Fronts:
https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/mercedes-benz,1970,280sl,2.8l+l6,1193497,brake+&+wheel+hub,caliper,1704
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Hi,
to renew your whole brake system you need new callipers and brake disks with pads plus fluid and new hoses. Eventually new cover plates, brake lines and clamps.
Genuine parts are made by ATE, are available and will cost you not more than 2.000€ (see https://www.daparto.de/Ersatzteile/Mercedes-Benz-SL-Pagode-W113/2-1211-?kbaTypeId=931#category-1456-1456) and should be done in one day (maybe except the lines).
New brake booster (yours looks still good) and master cylinder will cost you 400€.
I would start with brake callipers which can be refurbished with new pistons and rubbers for 20€ each (see https://www.daparto.de/Teilenummernsuche/FRENKIT/257926?categoryId=1541&kbaTypeId=931). I've just done it last summer, no rocket science.
...WRe
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You've had a bad experience with two previous mechanics but you like this one.
the price does seem high but if you like him maybe you shpould just tell him that you're very happy with his work thus far and are a bit taken aback by the latest estimate and could he break it down so you can better understand what you're paying for.
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The first two mechanics charged me very little, but accomplished less than nothing. This third mechanic has charge me real money, but delivered real results.
I don't have a problem with the complete re-do - just with the $15K price I am being quoted.
This guy has done a great job, but I think the project is getting over budget. Compared to how much he charged me for the more difficult and more time consuming work he did before, I think $15K may be excessive for replacement of brake and AC system.
I think you found yourself the trustworthy mechanic. Keep the dialogue open and ask for suggestions. Probably you can address the A/C at the later date.
I bet you that 2/3 of the estimate is going towards it.
Channeling the resources towards the “rolling restoration” is perfectly understandable.
Good mechanics like to see the fruits of their labour as well.
Thank you for posting your progress pics.
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Too bad I don't live in California. I would do the job and send you to the Bahamas for a week for that money. I normally make a point of not messing with another man's livelihood but not only is his pricing suspect giving you what amounts to a one line price so you can't look anything up for yourself is really off putting.
Do your own math. Ate is the original OEM supplier for calipers, rotors, master cylinders etc. Mercedes front brake rotors are $400 each which is robbery. Most likely Brembo or Ate anyway (I prefer Ate) and they are $40 each.
https://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/SuperCat/5740_catalog.htm
If your goal is to retain as many of the original AC parts as possible and just convert it to 134a your costs would be a few hundred dollars worth of hoses, expansion valve and refrigerant. add four hundred to replace the original York compressor with a Sanden model. Labor 16 hours max.
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Actually this mechanic gives me all of the original receipts for whatever parts he buys, not to justify what he charges me, but so that I may have a record in case I ever sell the car. Also he sends me detailed pictures every few days, I have dozens.
And that is the quandary. I want to just write a check but $15K to redo the brakes and AC seems excessive. I am sure he will do a stellar job, I mean the detail he put into recoating and repainting the bottom of the car, engine compartment and such was exceptional. The paint he used was oil based which is the correct factory paint for this, and isn't even available in California, he had to get it from out of state, using connections. Most mechanic shops would not have done that, would have simply said, sorry, I am not allowed to use that paint in this state. He could have easily skimped on the recoating and painting process and the sand blasting and cleaning a dozen times and I would never have known it.
And then when it turned out that he had made a mistake and painted gold the engine parts that should have been cadmium plated (he assumed they were painted), he took them all out and went ahead and sent the manifold and valve cover in for aluminum polishing too, at the same time as the other parts for plating, and didn't charge me any labor for taking all those parts off and sand blasting to remove the paint, nor will he charge me for putting them back, because he recognizes that it was his mistake to assume that those parts were painted versus plated. All I know is this guy is treating the car like it's his own - his labor of love is apparent. But, I think I'm paying him for that he's putting a lot of time into the car, and for the fact that the car will be on his rack taking up a bay for eight weeks while overseas parts come in, versus just for the time spent doing the job.
The prior two mechanics were honest too, but didn't really care about the car. As mentioned, they charged me very little, but did less than nothing.
Anyway, while we are waiting for the parts to come back cadmium plated with the yellow chromate finish, and for the engine parts to come back alum polished, we have a couple of weeks. He is happy to have me take the car elsewhere, he wouldn't mind. But how much would I save going to a new mechanic is the question?
I am open to suggestions for a different mechanic in the Southern California area. But I am willing to pay the premium for all Mercedes parts, as that is what I have done so far. Every part in this car that was not 100% factory was removed and replaced with Mercedes parts during this restoration job, and to a certain extent, I suppose I paid this mechanic too for his time in finding the parts, at least that is how he justified marking up the parts 35% (he also drove a lot all over Southern California examining and finding parts some of which he accepted, some of which he did not).
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Dear W113 Pagoda Owners,
$15k for a complete brake and A/C job should be considered as an unlawful act; a crime. Even for the best of the best Mercedes-Benz meister in the world. There are many very honest and trustworthy shops around, many have great reputation, BUT many are simply steal your money!
Rockauto reman ATE (official MB supplier) brake booster is $115. ATE calipers are $35. MC is $50. Rotors are $40. Pads $20. Hoses are $20 each. Fluid $10. Lines are inexpensive. Shops add their markup. Supply, tools, rent, worker’s comp, etc, etc. Labor; 4-5hrs for me. (if you need to form the lines. A/C compressor is $200. Complete A/C and Brake job should not exceed (depending on location and the MB Meister working on it), $3-4-5k at the most. A valid reason for someone would pay the top dollar to an experienced MB shop is not only the quality of the workmanship, but also, they should have the knowledge to compete the job very safely and quickly.
If someone is asking for outrages prices, do the right thing, and post here for help and support.
I have seen many people buying lemon cars over the years, people take advantage of newbies, and offered my (free) help in the LA area.
I am now back to Birmingham, AL, however, always available for free consultation over the phone for any reason or just to say hi.
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I want to compare Apples to Apples. How much will someone else charge me to put all brand new 100% Mercedes parts into the car for complete replacement of brake and AC systems, is the question. His invoice lists A to Z replacement of everything, and if there is one thing I know about this mechanic, he will really do it. He really will replace every single thing end to end, and he really will use all Mercedes parts, all new.
He gives me all the original invoices for all parts he buys - not to back up what he charges, but for my records. My family knows the guy socially for thirty years. I wish I had gone to him first and not wasted a lot of years (and a small amount of dollars) with the first two mechanics, but somehow, that ended up not being the case. Time is money too.
This guy wants $15,000. for that.
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I just talked for a long time to one of the local restoration job mechanics recommended to me by someone on this forum. This mechanic didn’t think he would necessarily save me any money after I told him the price I was quoted, and recommended staying with the guy I am with. For one thing, he said that if I pull the car now it practically releases the current guy from warrantying the work he has done so far, as it might become hard to figure out who is to blame if something goes wrong later.
On the AC work alone, he said it could get into 30 to 40 hours of work, depending on what exactly needs to be done.
However, one thing he said that makes perfect sense is that ideally, would want to preserve as many of the original parts as possible, versus change them all, to keep the car as original as possible.
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You are clearly very comfortable with this mechanic. You trust him, know he will deliver quality, and then you have in addition a firm standard for using only Mercedes original parts - even when the same part, but in an ATE rather than MB box, could cost 80% less - you want the MB part. Some of us here believe the cost associated with these choices is (much too) steep, but no one can look inside your pocket book and, in the end, you have to be comfortable and that's really what matters. I have made some conscious decisions to invest in restoring part of our home in France, when I could have also just had it torn down and saved myself tens of thousands that I know I will never recoup if and when we would ever sell; that was a sentimental rather than rational decision. It sounds like your car will be as good as it can be once done, and I look forward to seeing that result.
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Just to make sure you are aware, there are no original Mercedes AC parts.
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I talked to him, and my uncle (who has known him for thirty years), talked to him, and he's adamant that everything should be replaced not rebuilt if he is to be the one doing the job. This mechanic has worked on Mercedes for fifty years. He says the engine runs so smoothly now that you can't even hear it or detect any vibration, I mean he took it apart and rebuilt it perfectly
Anyway, another thing I didn't realize is that it's not just a brake and AC job, he wants to replace much if not all of the clutch and clutch master cylinder, and related transmission parts, and that was included in the price too.
Anyway, I am paying him the $15K and the job will be done.
After this, I will have him repaint the car as he has a body shop too, and then someone will redo the interior completely. Besides the value of the car, the car means a lot to me as it has been in our family from my father to me. It was bought brand new from Mercedes in L.A. and remained in our family ever since.
The reason it got to this point requiring such a restoration, is mostly because it was left at the first mechanic I sent it to, in Northern California, for something like nine years it sat there (inside, protected, but just sitting there), and those guys didn't know what they were doing and lost a bunch of engine parts, sensors were missing, and they left all sorts of wires disconnected - including for example the power to the AC compressor, those wires aren't even there somehow they got lost. I was referred to them by a friend who is now upset that his referral didn't work out. It wasn't entirely the shop's fault, as in, 2 of the 3 mechanics who owned the shop actually died during those nine years, and the remaining mechanic ended up selling the building and closing the business, at which point he returned the car to me in the condition that led me to decide that I wanted it restored completely. That first shop charged me almost nothing, but did less than nothing.
Then I took it to a second shop, local to me, where the guy showed me a 280SE he had restored, so I figured he knew what he was doing, but after a year, and not much money but a waste of time, I gave up on him and took the car to this third mechanic who is my uncle's old friend, and this third mechanic has charged me real money, but delivered real results, and worked on the car diligently.
I'll have more pics and updates eventually.
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That will probably work out for the best, and at least saves you from the uncertainty of moving the car yet again. I guess his high price factors in some time-consuming problems that will inevitably arise in doing the job to their standard (and possibly some of the problems already encountered and overcome in the previous work). Mercedes' parts pricing creates a new and unfortunate reality for restorations (especially with 35% on top - that's steep). The 10x markup on brake rotors mentioned by Shvegel being a good example. As far as I'm aware the rotors don't even have a stamped star and part number for consolation. It is, however, surprising how low the prices for rebuilt brake parts are in the US. $115 for a booster rebuild and $35 for a rebuilt ATe caliper are definitely 'rock' bottom. I guess those rebuilds must be trustworthy, given the safety implications of getting it wrong. I just don't see how they can do it for the price. The people doing the work are surely not getting paid enough. Are they done locally or overseas?
Given that your car's paint and interior (from what little is visible) seem ok, maybe consider just cleaning and detailing, especially if the seat covers are good (internal padding can be renewed). The original materials are high quality and by now have some inbuilt history. New looks great but so too does old. I see now why good patina is valued. This wheel and hubcap, for example, which I initially thought looked rough, look great to me now. Which is of course why the Blockley company chose them to advertise their tire.
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Parts are starting to arrive as the job progresses.
(https://i.imgur.com/tLfFAlam.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/hyx65GFm.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/QWW6buxm.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/2UABYlum.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/jh9G9sLm.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/w8NJ2rMm.jpg)
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Engine parts came back from polishing / cadmium plating place.
(https://i.imgur.com/yF3fTo9l.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/qUIft8Ml.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/aIlia1El.jpg)
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Don’t want to ruin your day but.... I think spending $30 on membership and gaining access to the tech manual to get the correct finishes to items will pay for itself after you avoid one mistake.
Did you ask for your rocker cover and inlets to be polished? as originally not polished. Pity but i think peening will restore them
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Original MB parts in ATE and FEBI boxes? It's what I use and there's nothing wrong with them but I won't pay MB prices for them.
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Yes I asked for and paid for the valve cover and manifold to be polished. If I ever sell the car I doubt the buyer on that day is going to ask for them to be returned to beat up old looking condition. It's a one owner car (my father and I) so I suppose I may say that I am entirely responsible for it in all respects.
Nothing rebuilt is going into the car.
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Attached it the original style finish that vapor blasting will take you back to. Not beat up and dirty at all. Just nice smooth original finish. A buyer that appreciates all of the original MB parts you put into will appreciate the original finish more than polished. Vapor blasting leaves a smooth finish that cleans fairly easy amd does not require a clear paint finish to protect it.
Vapor blasting my valve cover cost me $30.
Of course if you like the polished look more that is what is most important.
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Well, the car hasn't been sold to anyone not since the day it was bought new from the dealer in L.A., and I don't have any plans to sell it. I understand what you mean.
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=21058.msg150218#msg150218
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=79.0
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=30259.0
I wasn't planning on clear coating over the polished finish? Should I?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-6_EpDh0jI
https://www.eastwood.com/exoarmour.html
(https://i.imgur.com/btLNqVfl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/dHEcpWxl.png)(https://i.imgur.com/RtyH1vSl.jpg)
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Also, do people typically restore the odometer to 0 after a complete engine rebuild and restoration? I read about one 280SL that was recently sold around $100K where the odometer had been reset.
As I recall the miles are 36000 or so right now. The car wasn't driven at all for over ten years of its life, and very rarely before that.
I am sure the best is to leave the odometer alone, but just wondering.
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Have you guys ever tried for our car the Brembo brake pads ? I want to replace my discs and pads and I’m wondering which one is the best choice . Ate discs and pads or Brembo ? I read a lot of very good reviews about Zimmerman brake discs , they have a really high quality coating . Which is the best combination in your opinion ?
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I wasn't planning on clear coating over the polished finish? Should I?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-6_EpDh0jI
https://www.eastwood.com/exoarmour.html
(https://i.imgur.com/btLNqVfl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/dHEcpWxl.png)(https://i.imgur.com/RtyH1vSl.jpg)
I would was told not to clear mine after vapor blasting. Clear can yellow over time and vapor blasting creates a smooth non porous layer on top. I would guess that your finish should be smooth enough to keep clean. You would want to use clear coat if you just bead blasted your aluminum as that opens the pores rather than closing them.
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The car currently has Pirelli P4000 tires
205/70 R14
The tires have almost no miles on them but have been idle for a decade so I will replace them.
Should I stick with the same 205/70 R14 size?
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The car currently has Pirelli P4000 tires
205/70 R14
The tires have almost no miles on them but have been idle for a decade so I will replace them.
Should I stick with the same 205/70 R14 size?
I wouldn't go any wider. Good chance of rubbing even with 205's.
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Lots of discussion here on the forum about tires and tire sizes. The search function is your friend. My personal preference is for a size closer to original tires.
Whatever you decide on size, don’t drive an inch on those 10 plus year old ones.
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I had those Pirellis and really liked them. After ten or so years swapped them for narrower Vredesteins, which look more correct, but I preferred the ride the Pirellis gave. Of course this is 20 years ago, so today the comparison could well be different. There was no rubbing with the 205 Pirellis.
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I did search a lot. So between the Vredestein 205/70VR14 and any other 205/70 R14 would there be any difference in size though? The Vredesteins are narrower than the same size Pirelli 4000?
Are the Vredesteins narrower than for example the, Michelin Defender 205/70 R14 ? These are T speed rated though, while the Pirelli 4000s were H rated I believe. The Vredesteins are V rated? That would be more than fast enough!
What would be the next size smaller down from the 205/70 R14, versus the original 185/80 HR14 ? 195/75 R14?
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The width is indicated by the first number: 205 means 205 mm wide (20.5 cm), 185 is 18.5 cm etc etc. So 205 Vredesteins should be exactly the same width as Pirelli 205's.
The Vredesteins I got are the original width, the Pirellis were only available (when I bought them 20 years ago) in 205 so that's what I got then. Although 205 did not look out of place on my car, I do prefer the original width, or at least not more than 195, but that's personal preference, as is whether to go to 15 inch wheels over the original 14 inch.
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What would be the next size smaller down from the 205/70 R14, versus the original 185/80 HR14 ? 195/75 R14?
I am using the 195/75 R14. This size is the closest to the original tire in diameter/circumference.
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The engine looks like the below pic now. He has finished the brake work and installed the new AC parts under the engine but now needs to work on the area behind the dash as well as either finding or having fabricated the AC hoses.
Along the way he replaced some other parts too, not related to the brakes or AC, which he felt needed to be changed, which is what I like about what he does. He doesn't just go in and fix one thing he addresses anything that looks like it should be replaced. It is a restoration job in progress.
(https://i.imgur.com/Ozzpd0Pl.jpg)
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Maybe somebody can help me out here. I keep looking at the pictures of - among other things - the polished parts posted on February 12 and for whatever reason, both the valve cover and the intake manifold do not look M130-983 to me...Why is is? Do I need new glasses...again??
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Yes I asked for and paid for the valve cover and manifold to be polished. If I ever sell the car I doubt the buyer on that day is going to ask for them to be returned to beat up old looking condition. It's a one owner car (my father and I) so I suppose I may say that I am entirely responsible for it in all respects.
Nothing rebuilt is going into the car.
I am sure that you know that the original finish on the valve cover and manifold was engineered to dissipate heat? Polishing negates this.
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Well....if they were "engineered" to dissipate heat, they would be black!
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Maybe somebody can help me out here. I keep looking at the pictures of - among other things - the polished parts posted on February 12 and for whatever reason, both the valve cover and the intake manifold do not look M130-983 to me...Why is is? Do I need new glasses...again??
I agree, looks different?
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The parts are original to this car. Maybe look different because polished.
The engine is original too, and its # is
130-983-XX-XXXXXX
Speaking from an engineering point of view, how would a part that is polished dissipate heat any differently from a part that was not polished? Aren't we talking about internal heat, not a function of sunlight bouncing off the surface?
Just another little thing the mechanic did was after the new AC compressor came in he noticed that it was "Made in China." It was identical to the one that had been in the car from Day One, but I guess some of these compressors are nowadays Made in China. He returned it and got the original made in USA compressor for the car, which was harder to find new, but he got it. He is being paid a flat rate by me and didn't get a penny more for seeking out and using the made in USA compressor. He's done it like that countless times during this process.
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Well....if they were "engineered" to dissipate heat, they would be black!
Not necessarily. I am referring to surface composition not colour. The original pebble finish offers much more surface area than a polished finish, thus better heat dissipation.
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Interesting thought.
I did find some discussion on that concept
https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polished-engine-vs-heat-transfer-and-performance/728409
but the difference, if there is any difference, seems to apply to internal parts. Again, I find it hard to swallow that the finish of an external part would affect the flow of heat going outwards, when it is not a moving part.
If there is any difference as to an exterior part's finish of this small size I doubt it could be measured?
And if you dig deeper, there are those who claim that
"a polished surface will reflect radiant heat energy better (like a mirror) and absorb less. Likewise once hot , that surface will not emit as much heat due to the polished surface. A rough cast surface however will absorb more heat energy (less like a mirror) but will also be a better emitter of the energy. Like I said, once heat soaked, it comes out a wash so is relatively inconsequential what surface finish the UIM (upper intake manifold) has."
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Interesting thought.
I did find some discussion on that concept
https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polished-engine-vs-heat-transfer-and-performance/728409
but the difference, if there is any difference, seems to apply to internal parts. Again, I find it hard to swallow that the finish of an external part would affect the flow of heat going outwards, when it is not a moving part.
If there is any difference as to an exterior part's finish I doubt it could be measured?
And if you dig deeper, there are those who claim that
"a polished surface will reflect radiant heat energy better (like a mirror) and absorb less. Likewise once hot , that surface will not emit as much heat due to the polished surface. A rough cast surface however will absorb more heat energy (less like a mirror) but will also be a better emitter of the energy. Like I said, once heat soaked, it comes out a wash so is relatively inconsequential what surface finish the UIM (upper intake manifold) has."
Maybe. Ever look at a tea kettle?
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Well here are the parts before polish / plating. Not exactly sure there is any engineering difference as far as surface area.
(https://i.imgur.com/u33laJkl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Re5e7rsl.jpg)
I think the polishing and plating I did changed the cosmetics is all. It is after all an exterior finish.
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Have you ever looked at air-cooled motorcycle engines? Those that used in racing or high performance have black cylinder heads and engine barrels.
I know it is hard to swallow for someone who has not been exposed to physics much, but black surfaces emit heat better than light color ones.
And of course, an increased surface helps also. That's why we have "cooling fins".
Engineers are usually concerned about performance. Marketing guys are concerned about looks. That's why we have polished parts.
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It's your car and as such, you can do it any way you like but I can see all sorts of incorrect finishes all over your engine bay. We probably shouldn't get into any sort of a protracted discussion about any of this. :)
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If it is ever sold, in another thirty or forty or fifty years or whatever, it will probably be the only one owner only, West Coast only, 280SL on the planet, with very very low original miles on it, so I doubt that buyer is going to pick any car over mine. Or it might just remain in my family and never be sold.
As I looked across the internet I saw a variety of different ways people had done the different parts, in a half century I am sure there will be even more variations, and even more discussions as to what is "correct." :)
In the meantime, exactly, it remains my car.
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... and just maybe, today some parts made in China are better quality than the same part made in the USA, or Europe or other places for that matter.
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Well the point was to replace the part with a part that was made in the same place as the original. Not just the same manufacturer and part, but made in the same place too. :D
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Interesting thought.
I did find some discussion on that concept
https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polished-engine-vs-heat-transfer-and-performance/728409
but the difference, if there is any difference, seems to apply to internal parts. Again, I find it hard to swallow that the finish of an external part would affect the flow of heat going outwards, when it is not a moving part.
If there is any difference as to an exterior part's finish of this small size I doubt it could be measured?
And if you dig deeper, there are those who claim that
"a polished surface will reflect radiant heat energy better (like a mirror) and absorb less. Likewise once hot , that surface will not emit as much heat due to the polished surface. A rough cast surface however will absorb more heat energy (less like a mirror) but will also be a better emitter of the energy. Like I said, once heat soaked, it comes out a wash so is relatively inconsequential what surface finish the UIM (upper intake manifold) has."
Precisely my point. Since these parts are under the hood, let's set aside the heat absorption and concentrate on heat dissipation, which is diminished on polished parts.
By all means, finish your car the way you like it. I only wanted to point out that certain cosmetic choices can have performance consequences. I work a lot on vintage motorcycles and I prefer to restore castings by vapour blasting or dry ice blasting, never by aggregate blasting. That's how they left the factory. I do not clear coat but use metal cleaners on a cold engine judiciously and when needed. Enjoy your SL - it sure is a beauty and has a great history.
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Well the point was to replace the part with a part that was made in the same place as the original. Not just the same manufacturer and part, but made in the same place too. :D
I get that, but then how do you know the new MB brake calipers, or any other new genuine parts, are still being manufactured in the same European country as back then? Could well be Hungary now, instead of West Germany then (which no longer exists as a country). And even if the country is still the same, how about the specific city/province etc. Or factory for that matter. I'm just happy with the best performing, best quality part at the lowest price, I guess I am simple that way ;-)
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Just a thought, and not to lead to a continued back and forth on this, but - why go to the trouble of trying to figure out whether a given part should be painted glossy or flat black, and then stick a bunch of parts into the car that do not belong in there?
Over time, the look of the engine compartment looking really good might not matter so very much to one owner who decided that glossy black looks better than flat, but the fact that a non-original-factory part was put in might make a world of difference to another owner.
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New AC compressor.
(https://i.imgur.com/C3NQ11hl.jpg)
Brake job in progress.
(https://i.imgur.com/RoxJBowl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/gvxfdgVl.jpg)
Entire exhaust system from manifold back being replaced.
(https://i.imgur.com/A41Luwyl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ezZzC7tl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/h4EOCr7l.jpg)
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I see you are using the old style York piston type AC compressor and "beast bracket". Nothing wrong with that although most prefer the newer rotary (Sanden) compressor. The rotary is efficient and less drag on the engine.
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All the parts on the car are being retained in original state as much as possible. For example the exhaust - there are other choices. The exhaust system put back on there is original, and it cost more than many variations that do not belong on the car.
The AC is being returned to whatever was on there when we (my father) got the car new in 1970, as much as possible.
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One of the new AC lines came in.
(https://i.imgur.com/aUQM4Dpl.jpg)
While he's working behind the dash I am having him remove all traces of the modern stereo I installed. Now I have to find the original it is someplace just have to find it. Or put one of those 280SL covers on it and forget about a stereo.
If I forget about the stereo entirely what should I do with the doors? I can't quite recall the way it is on the originals as far as speakers. I am going to restore the entire interior anyway.
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My understanding is a W113 was delivered with a stereo the Speakers were surface mounted onto the kick panels. They would not have been mounted on the doors. Having an underdash add-on AC system such as the Frigiking will likely limit options with what you can mount in or on the kick panel on the passenger side.
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Mine came with Frigiking and a Becker Europa stereo (USA), with no center dash speaker, and two Becker speakers in the kick panels
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All of the mechanical work has been completed. Along the way we installed this fan to keep the AC condenser cool.
(https://i.imgur.com/pOMavmBm.jpg)
I actually haven't had a chance to visit the shop yet as I am currently traveling, but he is keeping the car inside and safe for me until I meet with him and decide on the next steps.
Next will restore the exterior and interior.
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Did you install the electric fan in addition to or in place of the viscous fan?
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I'll find out later this month when I see the car. All I know is he sent me the picture of the fan along the way during the work being done, and said that the car was overheating when running the AC before he installed it, and that it is fine now.
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A couple of months ago I was in a very similar situation to yours. My dad purchased a new w113 in January of 1971. It was given to me a about two years ago after having not been driven for 5 years. I had the car transported to a shop in Northern CA. It is well known and well respected especially for its work on w113. Like you, I asked the mechanic to make the car safe and drivable while keeping it as original as humanly possible. One of the things I had done was everything to do with the braking system with all parts coming from the classic center. The total brake system replacement including parts, labor and taxes was slightly in excess of $5k. Knowing the cost of rotors, calipers, etc and labor, I thought it was fair. To my thinking, $15K for brakes and A/C is rather pricey! My thinking, however, is irrelevant...it all about how you feel about this. Do you feel you’re getting value for the dollars spent and are you happy with the work that’s been performed? If you are, then stick with this mechanic and continue to move forward. If not, I would look for help elsewhere.
I applaud you for your efforts this far. Taking a non running car and breathing new life in it is not only fun but in our cases shows respect and honor for our fathers.
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These guys are known for their caliper rebuilds.
No need to buy new when these guys will do it right:
https://www.pmbperformance.com/catalog.html
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Lots of foolish spending on this thread but hey, its only money.
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I am happy with the work done and as mentioned, I contacted one or two other mechanics who were suggested to me by others on this forum, and at least one of them stated outright that he would not save me any money and would probably end up charging more. More than 15K.
It's easy for someone to say that "I could have gotten it done for less," but take the car to someone who isn't willing to hold on it to for months on end while searching for all original parts (no rebuild), isn't willing to keep it always inside, and doesn't really address everything along the way as a complete restoration, not just a mechanic's repair, and at the end of the day you may find that you saved no money at all.
In any case, I tried with two previous mechanics. The first, charged almost nothing, kept the car a long time (years), and returned it to me in worse shape. The second, kept the car for a year, charged some, and accomplished nothing. The third, this one who has the 280SL car now, got the job done and addressed everything along the way as if it were his own car, not just something to be put back together for mere functionality, but something to be restored to showroom condition.
It is a one owner car (my father, and then I, have been the only owners - like lreppond's), and always on the West Coast, so I think it will end up being one of the more coveted 280SLs out there once restored completely. I have no plans to sell it.
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It’s surely nice to use original Mercedes parts if money is no object. However, most of these parts as you must be well aware are not made by Mercedes but by specialist manufacturers; such is the example of the ATE brake calipers and rotors which if you by from Mercedes you will get the ATE item at a 2 -3 times the price.
You are certainly doing a top restoration though, my respect….
Regarding AC restoration my opinion is to keep the evaporator for originality but you should replace everything else with modern day equivalents as has been suggested by others. That way you will spend the money and have an effective AC rather than spend more money to get something that is original but does not work well….
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I see little propensity to accept advice here even when the information supplied is more than sound. Almost every car I look at has what I'd call the owner's or restorer's interpretation of what they think everything should look like.
A lot of new MB parts won't even look like the originals or have the same finishes so that's a poor way to gauge originality but then almost everyone thinks that what they have is more than what it really is. One of the nicest restored cars I've ever seen, a green California Coupe, had all of the fine detail required that brought it up to number one level. I just don't see that here.
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Having read all this thread, i am not sure what is trying to be achieved here. Lots of discussion on originality then polished rocker covers and more discussion on heat dissipation, some discussion on adding a Sanden compressor for the air conditioner to relieve stress and improve efficiency vs the older compressors, discussion on buying parts from original factories etc and on getting the best 280 on the West Coast and then we get to the latter posts and have heat problems and adding non original fan to keep it all cool.
I agree with Dan, lots of dollars are being spent with a dubious outcome.
But as always said on the forum, its your car and you do what you want with it, but it appears you cannot have it both ways.
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I polished a couple parts but otherwise everything in the car is original, as in matching what was in the car before. As a one owner car it's not hard to trace what should be in the car. The car has almost no miles on it to speak of, so many of the parts were from Day One, and simply had to be replaced with identical, is all. Wasn't hard.
I discount what the people who claim what should be in the car have to say, unless they can really trace it back in a one owner vehicle.
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You never know these days what is original. I recently changed the original spark plugs on my SLK32 , 2002. The car is low mileage and I bought it new. The spark plugs were what was installed when the car was built new at the factory. I removed the first spark plug and it had a nice blue Mercedes Star on one side. On the other side it said "NGK" made in Japan. I bought some Bosch spark plugs for another car the other day and they were marked Bosch "made in Russia". I ordered some wheel hubs with wheel bearings installed for another job (modern Mercedes "E" class), they came from the dealer in Mercedes factory packaging. The wheel hubs were made by Mercedes and were complete with the bearings which were marked "made in Japan".
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Engine now running perfectly after all mechanical work completed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDeRpeCyzmw&t=0s
Pretty much everything has been replaced, clutch, entire brake system, engine rebuilt top and bottom, including any needed engine parts, AC system, etc.
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The story on the fan https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=32603.msg242762#msg242762 (https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=32603.msg242762#msg242762) - the engine was not actually overheating when the AC was run. However, a technician advised us that in these cars the engine will overheat if the AC is run in stop and go traffic, and advised adding this fan. Any testing now with AC running shows the engine running cool.
(https://i.imgur.com/h4tf6ZFl.jpg)
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Some touch up work remains underside.
(https://i.imgur.com/tugSCS6l.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/kFt7JpNl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/cT44GCql.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/fYzeOR4l.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/REbCeuel.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/uFP36VPl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3BADfs2l.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/WBtczOdl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/sxjTxDkl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1NzvHYFl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/nyAQzZIl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/hO8XjTMl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/HwKbPUGl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Rk0x3Cel.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/XIb1bg8l.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/RKQoQpWl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZOhkt0fl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/OKsZ1gEl.jpg)
That's all oil based paint used on the underside.
The car will now proceed to a complete restoration inside and out, including any needed replacement of chrome and trim inside and out, concours d'elegance level paint job, and replacement of upholstery and carpet.
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Would it not make more sense to have done the paint before all the drivetrain work went on?
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You mean the exterior body paint?
It took about nine months to do all the mechanical and rebuild the engine. (Keep in mind that the first two mechanics had done little or nothing, and the car was returned from the first mechanic with parts missing, in inoperable condition.) Actually a year, because after he was done I was busy and couldn't get to the car for a while and mechanic kept it stored, inside, as a favor. That's another thing I like about this third mechanic who completed the job and did it right - is that he has kept the car inside at all times, including waiting for me on my schedule, without extra charge or complaint.
Mechanical first, then cosmetic restoration.
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Forgive me. I live somewhere where cars rust, where, if there’s no rust you’ve clearly not yet looked hard enough. So painting the body without addressing any hidden tin-worm is futile.
Sounds like you’ve got this
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The pictures may be deceiving and I could be wrong but is that a rust hole filled with caulk on the forward seam of the driver side floor panel just left of the frame rail? I know that’s a common rust area and the caulk/dark around it just looks different.
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There is a little soot on the undercoating / thick oil based paint in one picture. Just soot, I wiped it off with my finger.
I noticed that the black paint in a couple of spots under the car on some pieces needed another coat. I pointed this out to him when I was under the car.
Not aware of any rust.
In any case, the mechanic is also a body shop (which is why he was able to handle re-coating the underside, and repainting the underside and inside of engine compartment after removing the engine and all parts, in addition to the mechanical work).
He has done repainting and body work on a couple of my cars in the past. Not concours d'elegance level work, but great work.
For my car he will be doing concours d'elegance level work. He painted a 1950s two-tone Chevrolet in complete Concours d'Elegance level work for one of the actors in the Fast and the Furious series some years ago, which included a lot of chrome replacement.
From what I understand, it's not just about whether the chrome is okay now - which most of it is, some of it isn't - he says that after removing it for the paint job, it will become evident whether it needs to be replaced. Same with for example the trim, such as around the window - the chrome looks fine, but the trim underneath has to be replaced. After all of it is removed, we hope the chrome will be fine and able to be reinstalled - if not, some must be replaced.
He will also supervise all of the upholstery / carpet / interior work and the car will not leave his shop, that way he remains responsible for everything.
I still haven't decided whether to install an original Becker radio and speakers or just pull all of that and install a "280 SL" plate and no radio at all. I suppose at this point might as well spend the money and install all original.
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Still in the repainting exterior / interior restoration phase.
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Getting close. Still a couple more months of work to do on the restoration.
(https://i.imgur.com/MSZx1GPl.jpg)
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Looking great, I bet you can't wait to drive it again!