Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Electrical and Instruments => Topic started by: 113gray on May 11, 2003, 07:08:52
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Hi Group- I made a discovery recently while trying to make my trunk light functional. I figured just a bad bulb (NO), bad switch (NO). Then lots of testing w/ multimeter, access to fusebox & beneath dash wiring to convert a simple bulb change to an afternoon's frustration. Finally traced down problem & solution which were one & the same! TRUNK LIGHT ONLY COMES ON WHEN THE PARK OR HEADLIGHTS ARE ON AT THE SAME TIME. Anybody seen this before? Why would anyone hook it up this way. I have 2 other old MB's & they work normally. Is it because my car is a Euro? -JP- '66 230SL Euro (Italian)
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I have a 66 230sl and the trunk lite is wired just like yours, it only comes on when the lights are on. Mine is a US version car.
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JP, i believe the earlier cars are wired like that.
Douglas Kim
New York, NY
#018260
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Thanks for replies. This is getting more & more interesting as I had assumed someone along the way had wired it for his own (?perceived) need. Your replies have confirmed that is not the case. The "Why" part is still unanswered. (German brain fart????) Did all 113s have this arrangement? How about other MB models of the era? -JP-
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JP
Thanks! I didn't know I even had a trunk light (we call it a boot in Australia) until I read your post. Actually I only found the light actuator switch when I was cleaning the car on the weekend but couldn't get it to work. Now I know why. By the way, as we speak a different language over here, here are some translations:
boot - trunk
bonnet - hood
mudguard or just 'guard - fender
gas - petrol
Mark
1965 230 SL
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what about:
wings = fenders
hood = softop
spanner = wrench
Douglas Kim
New York, NY
#018260
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This switching arrangement along with the 3 way switch on the interior light allow you to open a door or the trunk without a light blazing on in a situation you might not want a light to come on. Also if you were to leave your trunk open for some reason it will not drain the car battery. I thought of rewiring the trunk light to come on every time I opened it and realized it was correct the way it is
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my '69 280 sl----the light goes on when you open the trunk. Irrelevant of the rest of the lights or the rest of the car...!
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JP
My early 250 SL, Australian delivered, is wired the same.
It is original configuration.
Works just great, provides lots of light to the boot at night.
Bob(Brisbane,Australia)
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In fact, I read that early 230 SL were not equipped with an additional trunk/boot/maletero/Kofferraum/... ;) light, because such space for the luggage is illuminated by the back of the rear lights (they have an small window directed to that place). So it only works when the Park or Headlights of the car are "on".
It seems that later Pagodas continued that guide line!
Regards,
Albert de la Torre Chavalera
Barcelona (Catalunya/Spain)
Feb.'64 230 SL Euro 113042-10-002432
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Well, thanks to all respondents. Obviously, there were wiring deviations available at that time which could not be tolerated on today's production lines. Some of our 113 trunk lights operate as do all others I have encountered in a lifetime of 70 + years, that is, one opens his/her trunk & the light comes on. In this isolated instance however, we see examples of this light being available ONLY when the head- or parking lights are also on. A bad, although interesting, idea as demonstrated by little or no modern survival of such an notion. I enjoyed reading your posts & following your thinking on the subject. That said, it's time to relegate this weird phenominon to bed & to history. -JP-
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My 67 230 is wired like this too, found that out when I discovered there even was a trunk light.
It's odd.
-CD-
1967 230SL, 113.042 10
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My 68 280sl is wired the same way, ie the trunk lite only comes on when head or driving lites are on. It never bothered me as I wouldn't need light in the trunk if it were not dark and the other lights wern't on.
inspectorgm
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Hi JP,
Jumping in late on this one...
My trunk light comes on when I open the trunk, with or w/o the main lights on. I have a '71 model (6/70 prod date).
Very interesting how they are different!
Bob
bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320
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Anyone think of carrying a flashlight in thespare tire rap?
Bob Geco
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I do carry a flashlight in the car at all times, a small one in the glove compartment. My trunk light ('69 280 SL. US spec) used to come on when I opened the trunk, whether the lights were switched on or not, until recently the switch gave out. I need to pick up a new one since I was not able to fix the old one.
Bob - in the spare tire cover I keep things like spare exhaust hanger donuts, one liter of oil, a rag, that sort of stuff ...
Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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Wiring courtesy lights under the hood and trunk lid to only operate when at least the parking lamps are on is fairly common practice in Europe. I have a Merkur (U.S. version of a 1980's vintage German Ford Sierra) in which the under hod lamp only lights up when the parking lamps are on.
The trunk lamp only bacame available on 230SLs sometime in 1966. If you have the black plastic plunger on the decklid adjacent to the latch, the bulb is good, and the lamp DOESN't light up when the parking lamps are switched on, look closely at the wiring near the driver's side trunk hinge. The wires are subjected to excessive bending and flexing each time the trunk is opened and may have severed themselves due to the stress over the years.
- Mike Hughes -ô¿ô-
1966 230SL Auto P/S
Havanna Brown (408)
Light Beige (181)
Cream M-B Tex (121)
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Mmm
Interesting. I have a new bulb but my trunk light comes on not at all - headlights or not.
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quote:
Originally posted by Tosh
Mmm
Interesting. I have a new bulb but my trunk light comes on not at all - headlights or not.
Check the actual wires in the harness along the trunk hinge. They fatigue and break after all that usage.
I see the suggestion is already there in the post below!!
naj
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My 230 SL's trunk light only comes on with the lights on, too. My brother has two Chevrolets from the 60's. A '62 Impala 409 Sport coupe and a '66 Chevelle SuperSport (this car he's owned since new). Its the same with these cars as well. He claims that vehicles of the era were all this way. The thought being that the light in the trnk wasn't needed if there was sunlight outside! In addition, the easiest line to tap into was the one to the tailights which of course is only "live" when the headlights were on.
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OK - I have voltage at the hinge and I have voltage at the connection TO the socket/switch
I have no voltage through the socket/switch. It looks like it's been wet at some point. The push switch sits directly below the bulb socket and alongside that is what looks like a relay box into which the (2 inches of) cables are secured. That "box" looks like it's riveted to the rest of the assembly
It's now someone tells me that these (110 825 00 41) are NLA :( ;)
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quote:
Originally posted by Tosh
OK - I have voltage at the hinge and I have voltage at the connection TO the socket/switch
I have no voltage through the socket/switch. It looks like it's been wet at some point. The push switch sits directly below the bulb socket and alongside that is what looks like a relay box into which the (2 inches of) cables are secured. That "box" looks like it's riveted to the rest of the assembly
It's now someone tells me that these (110 825 00 41) are NLA :( ;)
Tosh,
These lamps are used in many other models: 107,114,115,108 etc.
Check with Dave Collins (retrodave111@aol.com)
naj
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Thanks naj
Would like to get it up and running before Brooklands. A trunk light will be crucial.... :oops:
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Regarding the trunk light only coming on when the parking lights are on, while I don't like this it does make sense in the cars with the early tail lights. In addition to the trunk light there is also the parking light that shines back into the trunk through the translucent portion of the back tail light assemblies -- if MB is going to use the parking lights as trunk lights it seems logical that any additional trunk lighting would also only occur when the parking lights are on. So my question is on later cars that don't have the parking light -> trunk lighting is there additional trunk lighting that is actuated by a switch, and is the trunk lighting still wired to only work when the car lights are on?
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Curiouser and Curioser
As mentioned... power at the hinge and then power at the light socket but not through the light socket.
Then I went from there, with power to socket through the live but not through the neutral - ran my voltmeter red at socket, black at hinge for full 12v but no voltage if both at the socket
So I ran a secondary cable, tested the socket end and all was well - indeed I even had light. I am awaiting the new socket
Then I tested it again and suddenly have no power at the hinge...
The fuse board looks fine and all lights etc work as they should. I wondered if there's some sort of cut-off switch - based on time the circuit is open but seemingly not. Is there a separate fuse for this light anywhere?
edit:
AHA!!!
Between the connectors at the hinge and the "trunk wiring loom" where all the cables join near the antenna the cables were wrapped in insulation tape. I unwrapped it and found that the neutral was whole (but the sheath was split) and the positive had another torpedo connector - so two of them in the space of 3 inches.... - which had come disconnected
Re-fix everything, re-wrap it and lo... I have power at the (non-working) socket
huzzah - a small victory! :mrgreen: Oh, and naj, dave has a socket. SLS/Mervyn at Jacksons don't.
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Scott:
On both a 1971 USA model and a 1969 Euro model, the trunk light came on when the truck was opened...had a pressure switch that released when the trunk lid came up. The light was on when the lid was open even if the lights were off and the key was not in the ignition.
If I was at a car show with the trunk open all day, I unscrewed the bulb.
Richard M, NYC
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Having the advantage of having both a 71 280 and early 67 250 side by side, I thought I'd help. 280 trunk light on all times, no interior light with tail light. 250 trunk light on with tail light and interior light from behind.
One can see the change to more cost saving materials in the 280 assembly (plastic) also. 280 first, then 250.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3050/2715315572_bc2978abb9_o.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3125/2715315610_c0110b0325_o.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3189/2714502111_aa2320f4b2_o.jpg)
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My solution to the broken trunk light loom. Makes for easy removal of the lid, if needed.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3097/2714501753_85e4fb79be_o.jpg)
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quote:
Originally posted by 280SL71
Scott:
On both a 1971 USA model and a 1969 Euro model, the trunk light came on when the truck was opened...had a pressure switch that released when the trunk lid came up. The light was on when the lid was open even if the lights were off and the key was not in the ignition.
Hi Richard - So my question still stands (since I don't know if a 1969 euro SL has the kind of tail lights that illuminate the trunk or the kind that is later...) My car also has a switch for when the trunk is open. Is it true that cars that originally had the old style tail lights (meaning that light comes through the back of the tail light into the trunk) _ALSO_ were cars that had the separate trunk light only operate when the lights were turned on. OR at some point in time did MB just decide to make the trunk light switch hot always independent of the light switch position, and independent of what type of tail lights are on the car...? I'm just trying to see if there is a correlation here or not... Thanks! Scott
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quote:
Originally posted by scoot
ALSO_ were cars that had the separate trunk light only operate when the lights were turned on. OR at some point in time did MB just decide to make the trunk light switch hot always independent of the light switch position, and independent of what type of tail lights are on the car...? I'm just trying to see if there is a correlation here or not... Thanks! Scott
They all have the switch operated trunk light in the lid, to my knowledge. That's where the wires following the trunk hinge go to in my picture below.
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quote:
Originally posted by thelews
They all have the switch operated trunk light in the lid, to my knowledge. That's where the wires following the trunk hinge go to in my picture below.
According to 230 SL parts book, the switched trunk light was introduced from 042 012467.
Prior to that you had the little windows in the back cover of the rear lamps.
naj
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Goes to show what I know (hence my hedge)! One always has to be careful of "free" information (opinion). Thanks for the clarification.
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quote:
Originally posted by naj
According to 230 SL parts book, the switched trunk light was introduced from 042 012467.
Prior to that you had the little windows in the back cover of the rear lamps.
Clarification: Prior to that AND AFTER THAT you had the little windows in the back cover of the rear lamps until the rear lamp style was changed to the type with the plastic backs. So my questions still stands: Does the transition from the switched trunk light being hot only when the lights are on TO the switched trunk light is always hot correspond to the switch from the old-style tail lights to the new-style tail lights?
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I'm glad I read this series. I thought my trunk light didn't work. I switched on the head lights and the trunk light illuminated. I have a 1965 230 SL.
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Inspired by this historic thread , I investigated and found a light and switch unit in the lid :) - but the wires had been cut and taped over at the loom, and the other half pushed inside the lid :-[ !
I have reinststed them and I now have an operational "trunk / boot" light - albeit with a corroded switch that I must fix.
My car is RHD May 67 - an early 250 SL - it has the Plastic Light units, and the "Trunk/Boot" light is onlyn operational when the car lights are on.
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most German cars had this as standard...even my 1990 VW boot light only came on with the parking lights! Looks like they never changed this thinking...that you only need the light when its dark and you have the lights on...a bit Germanic!!:)
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So my questions still stands: Does the transition from the switched trunk light being hot only when the lights are on TO the switched trunk light is always hot correspond to the switch from the old-style tail lights to the new-style tail lights?
Scott,
Fairly correct. This was changed over some time during the production run.
Earlier trunk lights were illuminated by a grey-blue wire, and that indicates in the same way as instruments lighting: only illuminated when (at least) parking lights are switched on.
Later on this was changed to a red wire (with yellow and white marker lines) indicating it was/is powered by constant + without the aid of the parking lights.
I do not exactly know when this change was ... possibly with the change of the taillight design after serial no. 007938 but this does not mandatorily need to be connected to this change.
Parts list says that the main wiring harnesses and the tail lamp harnesses were changed during production (of 250/280) but the list does not indicate the exact serial number ...
I'll look this up in the Engelen.
most German cars had this as standard...even my 1990 VW boot light only came on with the parking lights! Looks like they never changed this thinking...that you only need the light when its dark and you have the lights on...a bit Germanic!!:)
Ahem, no.
Of cause, I understand you making "jokes" about "Germanic"ism or so... ;)
... that's fine
... but I don't think this is just true in this case.
Volkswagen always had some weird "money-saving" issues with this kind of equipment while MB performed that change already some 20 years earlier - and I believe BMW as well. ;)
Achim
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[Earlier trunk lights were illuminated by a grey-blue wire, and that indicates in the same way as instruments lighting: only illuminated when (at least) parking lights are switched on.
Later on this was changed to a red wire (with yellow and white marker lines) indicating it was/is powered by constant + without the aid of the parking lights.
I do not exactly know when this change was ... possibly with the change of the taillight design after serial no. 007938 but this does not mandatorily need to be connected to this change.]
Achim -
As I said my early 250 SL RHD has the plastic light units, but the blue/grey wire - powered with side lights.
Do you know where the blue/grey wire originates from in the car, the circuit diagram (2) shows it as Fuse (1), but this is not so for my car, and I would like to change it over at source so the light would always be available, rather than run a new cable through.
Thanks
Paul
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Hi Achim, yes, the comment was in was in jest, so hopefully no offence taken! :)
Scott,
Fairly correct. This was changed over some time during the production run.
Earlier trunk lights were illuminated by a grey-blue wire, and that indicates in the same way as instruments lighting: only illuminated when (at least) parking lights are switched on.
Later on this was changed to a red wire (with yellow and white marker lines) indicating it was/is powered by constant + without the aid of the parking lights.
I do not exactly know when this change was ... possibly with the change of the taillight design after serial no. 007938 but this does not mandatorily need to be connected to this change.
Parts list says that the main wiring harnesses and the tail lamp harnesses were changed during production (of 250/280) but the list does not indicate the exact serial number ...
I'll look this up in the Engelen.
Ahem, no.
Of cause, I understand you making "jokes" about "Germanic"ism or so... ;)
... that's fine
... but I don't think this is just true in this case.
Volkswagen always had some weird "money-saving" issues with this kind of equipment while MB performed that change already some 20 years earlier - and I believe BMW as well. ;)
Achim
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As I said my early 250 SL RHD has the plastic light units, but the blue/grey wire - powered with side lights.
Do you know where the blue/grey wire originates from in the car, the circuit diagram (2) shows it as Fuse (1), but this is not so for my car, and I would like to change it over at source so the light would always be available, rather than run a new cable through.
Hello Paul,
Unfortunately these changes are not all accompanied by corresponding official Mercedes wiring diagrams. :o :o
Basically the early taillight versus late taillight assembly does not necessarily has to do anything with the separate trunk light located in the trunk lid. ;)
If the wire for your separate trunk light is grey-blue this indicates the older style wiring and as such the trunk light's illumination only with (at least) parking light on, but no independent operation.
In this case you must follow the reverse direction of the grey-blue wire within the harness, and if I am not wrong here it should go to fuse no. 7 instead of no. 1.
Now you need to find _that_ grey-blue wire on fuse 7 and not mistakenly disconnect the grey-violet (grey-purple) wire (which goes to the instruments lighting). Disconnect only the grey-blue wire from the fuse box (which goes to the trunk light) and redirect it to fuse 1 or (better) a separate fuse.
That should do the job.
Good luck,
Achim
(wiring harness aficionado)
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Thanks Achim,
Is this a job accessed from inside the car footwell ? or can the fuse box be easily removed from the engine compartment side, to give easier access to the wireing ?
I have just overhauled the drivers side under dash / footwell cover , and found access in the footwell / pedal area quite difficult !
I found a lot of posts about the under dash covers, could not find them in the WiKi - I am doing a lot of "Previous Owner Neglected" jobs at the moment, and take pictures as I go, so I hope to learn to how add to the WiKi this Winter - and hopefully add some content.
Paul
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Is this a job accessed from inside the car footwell ? or can the fuse box be easily removed from the engine compartment side, to give easier access to the wireing ?
Hello Paul,
Sorry please for the late answer.
Answer to your 1st question is yes. :o
Answer to your 2nd question is ah no. :(
I have just overhauled the drivers side under dash / footwell cover , and found access in the footwell / pedal area quite difficult !
Not only you. It _is_ a pain. Sadly...
You can unscrew the fuse box from the engine bay side after removing its lid and seal. Push the fuse box carefully towards the underdash compartment. Then you have a little more access.
Only possibility I see ....
Good luck! ;)
Achim
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Thanks Achim,
I am not so agile as to want another session in the footwell - so Plan "B" then,
I am fitting an additional power socket in the "trunk" so I will run an ignition switched live for that, and a fixed live for the trunk light at the same time.
Keep well
Paul