Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: prefervintage on April 26, 2020, 17:23:19
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I was just reading another post on car values, and the subject of insurance came up...Aaron H in the U.S. wrote this "The sad part about Hagarty is that they allow people to insure their cars for whatever price they want. Also known as an agreed value policy. So say you insure your car for $80,000, but in reality it's only worth $20,000. Hagarty will allow you to insure it for $80,000, but when a total loss is deemed after an accident, Hagarty will not pay the $80,000 to you. They'll only pay within a median range of what the car is worth. They've gotten caught up in court several times regarding this, and every time they've lost and had to pay the full amount of the policy. They are extremely corrupt. For insurance use J.C. Taylor or Grundy."
I'm insured with Chubb and have an agreed to value of $30K which I feel is low.After I get the paint and body redone this summer, I'm looking have it appraised, and to increase the agreed to to $80K. I've heard Chubb is fair about this. I never heard about a bait and switch with Haggerty, which is good to know.
What have others experienced in making an insurance accident or total loss claims with their classic cars? It would be interesting to hear what happens in other countries...
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Mine is insured for a $56 premium a year, liability only. When I first bought it, I insured it 'full coverage' but then had to get it appraised every X years etc. Too much hassle. I think I have saved maybe $20K in insurance premiums over the years. Of course if it gets stolen, it's gone. I never insure anything I can afford to lose, which includes a hobby car like this.
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I have quite a few "classic" (sorry, Dan Caron) vehicles, both cars and motorcycles. They are all insured with a mainstream, regular insurance company. The insured value is based on a value estimate by a dealer or other authority. I have to provide pictures every two or three years and update the insured value.
For the motorcycles, it is a flat rate for every $100.- of value. The premiums for the cars are assessed differently.
My experience is that discussing insurance rates is an absolutely useless endeavor. premium rates vary for the same insurance depending on where you are in the country.
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I have quite a few "classic" (sorry, Dan Caron) vehicles, both cars and motorcycles. They are all insured with a mainstream, regular insurance company. The insured value is based on a value estimate by a dealer or other authority. I have to provide pictures every two or three years and update the insured value.
For the motorcycles, it is a flat rate for every $100.- of value. The premiums for the cars are assessed differently.
My experience is that discussing insurance rates is an absolutely useless endeavor. premium rates vary for the same insurance depending on where you are in the country.
Hey, no problem, as long as you recognize that there is a difference between classic rock and classical music.
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I use American Modern Property & Casualty Insurance Company through Barlow Insurance in Corona, CA.
Overall very satisfied, but they do insist on having a proper garage.
I'd be interested if anyone knows of a low cost carrier for limited use coverage WITHOUT comprehensive cover that I could use for some less valuable cars in my "collection".
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I posted a reaction to this thread some time ago, but somehow it was moved (?) to 'archived posts'.
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I posted a reaction to this thread some time ago, but somehow it was moved (?) to 'archived posts'.
I don't know what happened but I merged it back in here...
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So say you insure your car for $80,000, but in reality it's only worth $20,000. Hagarty will allow you to insure it for $80,000, but when a total loss is deemed after an accident, Hagarty will not pay the $80,000 to you. They'll only pay within a median range of what the car is worth. They've gotten caught up in court several times regarding this, and every time they've lost and had to pay the full amount of the policy. For insurance use J.C. Taylor or Grundy."
My experience was solely related to Michigan which is, of the 50 United States and its territories, completely different than than the rest, in so many ways...
When I first went to get collector car insurance back in the year 2000 for my Pagoda, the ONLY company I could get insurance from was Hagerty. That's because they--being based in Michigan--understood that vast numbers of Michigan residents including most management at all the auto companies (way beyond the big three) didn't own cars. That's right; we had (in my case through my Ford-employed wife) management lease vehicles which were either self-insured by the car company, or insured by an insurance company hired by the auto company. So, for well over 10 years at that time we had not owned or insured a car in our name. (N.B. For those wont to snarky comments, we paid plenty for the car leases, they were not free. They were discounted of course, but still cost plenty.)
That poses a problem when collector car insurance mandates proof of other insurance and a car for use as a daily driver. None of the others I checked at that time could wrap their heads around this management lease concept, but Hagerty could. We needed to get a letter from HR deeming we had management lease vehicles available to us.
Now, fast forward to 2019. Our insurance, even with Hagerty kept going up, up and up. That's even AFTER we got a reduction with a partial waiver of the MCCA* assessment when I moved my registration to "Historical". So, I went shopping around (this time, we owned cars as my wife retired) and Grundy was clearly a winner in the rate category. I have agreed value with them too. I don't know how this all works but Grundy, like Hagerty, appears to be an agent, not an insurer. I don't recall the name of the insurance agency on the Hagerty policy but it wasn't Hagerty. On the Grundy policy its the Philadelphia Insurance Company, or PHLY.
Another factor that one should worry about is the companies that require an appraisal. That could easily cost well into the hundreds of dollars, and negate any insurance savings. That made me reject some carriers.
It's no surprise that ANY insurance agent or carrier would lose an "agreed value" argument in court; you are paying a rate based upon that agreed upon value. It's not as if you paid for a $20,000 value, and are claiming $80,000 at time of claim; your rate was based in a large part upon the agreed value. I do know that some insurance companies will target certain owners/cars when there is suddenly a large jump in value. Maybe you restored the car? They'll want some proof of that value change.
Because of the Covid crisis, the local DMVs are closed and re-locating the Pagoda's registration, title and insurance from my old state of Michigan to North Carolina will just have to wait until I can do this without issue. We managed to get our daily drivers switched as priority one, once we had an address, driver's licenses, and just before the *&^% hit the fan with the virus. Our regular daily driver insurance dropped by well over 50% in the move here.
*MCCA Assessment: this is a flat fee assessed onto each auto insurance policy in the state of Michigan to fund the "Michigan Catastrophic Claims Association, a quasi-public entity that takes over when injuries exhaust the primary insurance. Michigan is the only state/territory that has completely unlimited payments for catastrophic injuries with no cap. Current MCCA assessment per vehicle is $220.00 per year per policy. For collector policies it's $44.00
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My experience was solely related to Michigan which is, of the 50 United States and its territories, completely different than than the rest, in so many ways...
When I first went to get collector car insurance back in the year 2000 for my Pagoda, the ONLY company I could get insurance from was Hagerty. That's because they--being based in Michigan--understood that vast numbers of Michigan residents including most management at all the auto companies (way beyond the big three) didn't own cars. That's right; we had (in my case through my Ford-employed wife) management lease vehicles which were either self-insured by the car company, or insured by an insurance company hired by the auto company. So, for well over 10 years at that time we had not owned or insured a car in our name. (N.B. For those wont to snarky comments, we paid plenty for the car leases, they were not free. They were discounted of course, but still cost plenty.)
That poses a problem when collector car insurance mandates proof of other insurance and a car for use as a daily driver. None of the others I checked at that time could wrap their heads around this management lease concept, but Hagerty could. We needed to get a letter from HR deeming we had management lease vehicles available to us.
Now, fast forward to 2019. Our insurance, even with Hagerty kept going up, up and up. That's even AFTER we got a reduction with a partial waiver of the MCCA* assessment when I moved my registration to "Historical". So, I went shopping around (this time, we owned cars as my wife retired) and Grundy was clearly a winner in the rate category. I have agreed value with them too. I don't know how this all works but Grundy, like Hagerty, appears to be an agent, not an insurer. I don't recall the name of the insurance agency on the Hagerty policy but it wasn't Hagerty. On the Grundy policy its the Philadelphia Insurance Company, or PHLY.
Another factor that one should worry about is the companies that require an appraisal. That could easily cost well into the hundreds of dollars, and negate any insurance savings. That made me reject some carriers.
It's no surprise that ANY insurance agent or carrier would lose an "agreed value" argument in court; you are paying a rate based upon that agreed upon value. It's not as if you paid for a $20,000 value, and are claiming $80,000 at time of claim; your rate was based in a large part upon the agreed value. I do know that some insurance companies will target certain owners/cars when there is suddenly a large jump in value. Maybe you restored the car? They'll want some proof of that value change.
Because of the Covid crisis, the local DMVs are closed and re-locating the Pagoda's registration, title and insurance from my old state of Michigan to North Carolina will just have to wait until I can do this without issue. We managed to get our daily drivers switched as priority one, once we had an address, driver's licenses, and just before the *&^% hit the fan with the virus. Our regular daily driver insurance dropped by well over 50% in the move here.
*MCCA Assessment: this is a flat fee assessed onto each auto insurance policy in the state of Michigan to fund the "Michigan Catastrophic Claims Association, a quasi-public entity that takes over when injuries exhaust the primary insurance. Michigan is the only state/territory that has completely unlimited payments for catastrophic injuries with no cap. Current MCCA assessment per vehicle is $220.00 per year per policy. For collector policies it's $44.00
Interesting. The Service Ontario offices here were almost all closed which meant no one could renew their tags. Most offices remained open on a limited basis for car dealers so they could transfer titles but the general public was locked out. What they did to remedy this problem was to waive all new license tags until the danger passes. You would still need to have had current plates from the previous year though. Since this is only a deferral it's not believed that any revenue would be lost.
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It is appalling that insurance companies can do this to their customers. Thank you for your honest feedback about the insurance companies.
But now I am even more confused about which company to choose, I want to insure my car. But I don't want to overpay for insurance. My friend when he bought a new car was very worried about it, and any scratch-like stain drove him crazy. So he went to https://www.car.co.uk/motor-insurance. They helped him find the perfect insurance plan. They have a special insurance plan for first-time drivers. I think that's just what I needed. What do you think?
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As I once said to an insurance agent, " What I really need is insurance to protect me from insurance companies."
Oddly, he only smiled; no laugh always means you're right.
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To the original title of this post - I think (collector) car insurance will be very different from country to country - what applies in the UK almost certainly will not apply in the US, in Australia etc. I think it's very much a local market and I don't really know any insurance company that offers car insurance in different parts of the world (although there are pan-European insurers, and pan-United States carriers etc).
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I think it could be interesting to compare terms, either to help each other find a better solution, or just for the sake of it.
My insurance company is Allianz. I pay 560€ per year with a 4000km/yr limitation. No compensation for self inflicted damages, but otherwise insured for external causes and theft (with a 1300€ deductible) and road assistance.
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...I think it's very much a local market...
Local market, indeed. God bless or curse the actuaries...
I know in Michigan your zip code, and even your neighborhood within your zip code can make a huge difference in your insurance premium. I suspect it's the same everywhere, just some places worse than other.
Some firms won't even write in Michigan because they have an "all comers" law; you sell all your insurance products to anyone and everyone, or you don't do business in the state. An insurance company cannot "cherry pick" what products to sell to what people in what zip codes or neighborhoods. Else, they'd narrow down the offerings to only selling insurance to those living in the safest areas who never make claims.