Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: Por911t4 on April 28, 2019, 18:46:53
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Firstly thanks for the add . Long term Porsche owner (7 x 911’s) moving across to a Pagoda ...
Having put down a deposit on a ‘66 SL230 I’d like to ensure that it’s a matching numbers car . Yes I should have done this prior to placing a deposit (!) .... however, where will I find the engine number of the above year / model . On the block somewhere ?
Once I’ve concluded matters later in the week I’ll post pics ....
Many thanks again
Barry (Glasgow)
Scotland Uk
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Hi Barry, and welcome to the other side of Stuttgart
Engine number is on the block, have a look in the tech manual in the engine section for the basics and location
You’d need a data/build card from MB t get the engine number and chassis number as it left the factory. That’s your check
Though swaps are more rare than in the Porsche world as the cars had easier lives!
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I placed an arrow in the picture. Mine is also a 1966 230SL. You have to get the data card to check the number.
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I wish this obsession with "matching numbers", which comes from the American Muscle Car scene would go away. I am dealing with vintage classic cars a lot and a ton of people with more money than understanding just don't get that this is not something that necessarily excludes originality. Especially in rarer European cars or small number exotics. Sure, if you have an engine serial number high in a particular model run sitting in a chassis with a low VIN for that same model, it is unlikely that it is the original pairing. Then again, so what...?
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I too believe what Mike is saying. The US muscle car market needed matching numbers because it prevented people from buying "Clones" of high performance cars that were originally low performance models that had a larger engine installed. For our cars it doesn't make much sense because all versions of a particular model year carry the same engine. In fact the sedan SEL versions had the identical engine with a different number stamp.
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And I wish people would quit calling the Classic Cars.
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Barry, as per the advise of James here is where you have all the info about all sorts of numbers on plates related to the car:
https://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/Start
and about engine in particular:
https://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/EngineNumber
In the Technical Manual you also have a chapter on pre-purchase inspections.
I would ask the vendor about the data card and pictures of all plates in the car so that you can figure out what is offered vs. the numbers. Ask also for the picture of the engine number on the block.
I am not sure what are the rules now, but in the past you could not get a data card until you were an owner. So if you are sent a picture of the engine number, for now you are only able to determine (without the data card) if the type of engine in your car is the right one.
As other Members indicated - engine swaps are relatively common and swapped engine may or may not be the most important factor here - up to the owner. A lot of those swaps are dealer made with new engines from factory delivered as spare part. Well, you may always use this point as negotiations argument.
You have several Members on this site from the UK who can help navigate around Mercedes Classic world there in the UK...
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And I wish people would quit calling the Classic Cars.
??? ??? I will, Dan, if you tell me what you mean?
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??? ??? I will, Dan, if you tell me what you mean?
I've been through this enough times not to take the bait. Look up ACCA and get then back to me.
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Sorry, I am too recent of an addition to the forum. Don't even know what "ACCA" stands for. ???
But I did some reading in past posts and I think I know where you are coming from.
My PoV is when you deal with older, collectable vehicles, it depends very much on the specific model whether a certain term to describe it, applies.
I usually differentiate between "Classic" and "Vintage".
A "Classic" is no longer produced, was -maybe - produced in low numbers and due to its rarity and value it has become somewhat desirable among collectors, hobbyists and enthusiasts.
A "Vintage" is mainly of a certain age regardless of actual numbers originally made or still out there. This may not necessarily be a desirable vehicle for most.
I am not including American made cars in this, as that market is totally screwed up and there are too many fakes and plastic repops out there. Personally, except for the occasional Corvette, I stay away from them as you cannot possibly be an expert in everything that is out there.
So, the terms "Classic" and "Vintage" can be applicable simultaneously to a specific vehicle model, or they can divide a model range over the time it was produced.
The perfect example is the air-cooled Porsche 911. All are most certainly "Classics" while "Vintage" I would only accept for the pre-964 models.
And to make it more annoying, some people in the "scene" even use the term "Neo-Classic".... ;D
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Or "youngtimer" - from Germany, which i like to describe things like the 964, 993, 190E, Quattro, 205GTi, early Golf etc etc. Old and treasured, as opposed to just old
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Sorry, I am too recent of an addition to the forum. Don't even know what "ACCA" stands for. ???
But I did some reading in past posts and I think I know where you are coming from.
My Prov is when you deal with older, collectable vehicles, it depends very much on the specific model whether a certain term to describe it, applies.
I usually differentiate between "Classic" and "Vintage".
A "Classic" is no longer produced, was -maybe - produced in low numbers and due to its rarity and value it has become somewhat desirable among collectors, hobbyists and enthusiasts.
A "Vintage" is mainly of a certain age regardless of actual numbers originally made or still out there. This may not necessarily be a desirable vehicle for most.
I am not including American made cars in this, as that market is totally screwed up and there are too many fakes and plastic repops out there. Personally, except for the occasional Corvette, I stay away from them as you cannot possibly be an expert in everything that is out there.
So, the terms "Classic" and "Vintage" can be applicable simultaneously to a specific vehicle model, or they can divide a model range over the time it was produced.
The perfect example is the cooled Porsche 911. All are most certainly "Classics" while "Vintage" I would only accept for the pare-964 models.
And to make it more annoying, some people in the "scene" even use the term "Neoclassic".... ;D
A lot of people believe these things and just because people believe things doesn't mean they're true.
Before the second world war, there were basically two types of cars produced. Antique cars and Full Classic Cars. Built during the classic era of car building these were mostly hand built high dollar cars. Think Auburn, Cord, Duesenburg, Pierce, Peerless, Packard, Marmon, V12 Cadillac, and large number of European high end cars. MB S, SK, SSK, 540K, 500K and a few others come to mind. There is no way someone could mistake a Full Classic for an antique car like a model T or model A. It's all about the era in which they were built and how they were made.
After the war, the ACCA ( Antique and Classic Car of America ) formed in 1952 to save what was left of these cars - long before a 1968 Corvette was ever built. In response to the growing number of post war car clubs and car enthusiasts, a new club was formed called the Milestone Car Club of America. This covered everything from 1947 until 1972. A number of MB cars were recognized such as 220 Cab A, 220SE Cab and Coupe, 220 S Coupe and Cab, all 300 cars, 6.3, 600, 190SL, 111 coupes and cabs, and 113's.
I don't know if this club is even active or still around but the bar was set a long time ago as far as what's in and what isn't. The ACCA is still active and every year new cars are voted on and added to the list. This is not my idea of how things should be, it's the way it really is.
The whole idea of "Classic" is so bastardized anymore that anything older than a toddler would qualify. It's almost meaningless these days. One day, during a discussion I was in ( imagine that ) a guy asked me if I had ever heard of Classic Rock. I said yes, and it's not the same as Classical music - those are two very distinct and different things. I think of Full Classics and Milestone Cars in the same way. Everything else is just old cars and used newer cars. :)
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The OP (original poster) had no idea what he was getting into when he asked a simple question.
Barry,
You should know that there are some Pagoda owners that do care about an original engine still being installed in the vehicle they are buying. The same engine that it had when it left the factory in that car ..... I love it !!
It just gives me a warmer feeling about a car if I know that either some one took care enough of the car to not kill the engine, or they cared enough about the car to have it rebuilt instead of scrapping it.
MikeSimon, you call it an obsession. It is not an obsession to all of us. Just a factor with varying degrees of importance depending on who you are talking to. There are many factors that make a car good or bad and that it just one piece of data.
By the way, is your engine in your Pagoda the same one that it had when it left the factory decades ago?
Some people like matching numbers, some don't care.
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I look at it in one simple way.
When people start bidding 50K more at auction for a numbers matching 113, then I'll say it makes a difference. Until then, as they say in Canada, it doesn't mean SFA. ;)
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I think "matching numbers" is a somewhat misleading term in itself. For the 113 there is no such thing as "matching numbers", i.e. the serial number of the chassis is "matching" the serial number of the engine. That would mean, my 280SL with a chassis serial number of 22774 would have an engine serial number of 22774. Just not possible.
My engine is still the original engine as it left the factory and it is 15405. Who wants to confirm that these are "matching numbers". Based on what?
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The Data Card will have all the information needed to identify the exterior and interior colors and materials, hood, trunk lid, soft top boot, hard top, engine, transmission and rear axle originally installed by the factory. It may also mention which brand of tires and battery were fitted at the factory. For someone focused on "matching numbers," the serial numbers from all the identifiable principal components of a Pagoda would match those listed on the data card.
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The Data Card will have all the information needed to identify the exterior and interior colors and materials, hood, trunk lid, soft top boot, hard top, engine, transmission and rear axle originally installed by the factory. It may also mention which brand of tires and battery were fitted at the factory. For someone focused on "matching numbers," the serial numbers from all the identifiable principal components of a Pagoda would match those listed on the data card.
Yes, they would. However, if your engine was replaced under warranty, the MB dealership was instructed to stamp your original engine number into your new block. So much for original numbers, eh?
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After the war, the ACCA ( Antique and Classic Car of America ) formed in 1952 to save what was left of these cars -
I found two clubs:
- http://www.aaca.org, the Antique Automobile Club of America
- https://www.classiccarclub.org, which appears to be the club you are referring to in your post
What is really interesting is what the Wikipedia Article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_Car_Club_of_America) on the Classic Car Club of America says about that club (and I quote):
"The CCCA is considered to have invented the term classic car, which was coined to describe the vehicles covered by the Club's interest. While the term is nowadays used to describe any interesting old vehicle, many in the US consider it only properly used to describe vehicles considered eligible for the CCCA. This may be considered analogously to the correct usage of 'Classical music' to mean only from a specific historical period, even though many people use the term to mean any orchestral work.
Today the CCCA has only 2,500 members, about its membership in the 1970s. While many were and are genuine enthusiasts, many are more interested in perpetuating myth, legend, inaccuracy about old luxury cars in order to feather their nests, making a killing at the next Barrett Jackson or Leake auction.
The CCCA should never be considered the final arbiter of what is or is not a halcyon automobile."
So I consider my Pagoda a classic car! ;)
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I think we lost the original poster on this. Maybe scared him off...
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Ha ! No Im here folks alive and well . Apologies for the slow reply (I’m the OP) and thank you so much for the extremely detailed replies . Bearing in mind I’ve been heavily into 911’s for 20+ years and after all this time I’m moving into pastures new hence my impending Pagoda arrival . The Porsche world is anal about matching numbers hence my question and apologies if this seems odd asking this in Pagoda circles. I fully realise the wealth of knowledge available in a resource such as this and I fully intend to get further immersed in this as I have with 911’s over the past two decades . Great to be part of it and thank you so far .
Regards
Barry
Scotland Uk
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You ask questions, and we answer. well...... at least usually we do. ;D
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Yes, they would. However, if your engine was replaced under warranty, the MB dealership was instructed to stamp your original engine number into your new block. So much for original numbers, eh?
I guess the mechanics that replaced my engine under warranty didn't get those instructions. No numbers stamped, just blank.
John
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The replacement engine that was put in my car has just the part number for "280sl Manual Euro replacement engine". The guy at the parts desk was telling me the number wasn't possible but eventually found it the number in a scan of an old parts book. He figured my original engine probably suffered from "excessive oil consumption" and after 60,000 miles and probably a blow up they just replaced the original with a new engine out of the crate.
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. The Porsche world is anal about matching numbers
Barry
Scotland Uk
Barry: It is much easier (and more common!) to "mix and match" components in a Porsche 911 powertrain than it is in a W113 SL. That's probably why 911 owners and potential buyers are "more anal" about correct numbers. The huge variety of flat sixes from original 2.0L to 3.6/3.8L and their interchangeability in addition to generations of 901 transmissions makes it very tempting to swap powertrains to "upgrade" older cars. I wouldn't think that is the case with the Pagoda. Also, bear in mind that the SL usually was driven significantly different by previous owners than a used 911 would have been not requiring more frequent engine repairs/replacements.
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Many thanks gents for all the great feedback . I’m delighted to see such enthusiastic feedback and passion for the Pagoda . I’m collecting the car on Friday around 300 miles from home ....heading off early with my trailer. I’ll post some images cover the weekend when she’s tucked up here at home . Thanks again
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Pics will be required
I assume you frequent DDK for your early Porsche needs