Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: Ed Cave on February 01, 2005, 21:20:48
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The biggest problem with a nicely detailed engine bay is the unrestorable discolored plastic component or two that now stick out like a sore thumb.
The capsule shaped, coolant expansion tank presents that problem for me and that is where I'm looking to you all for help. My car, being a 1971, has the plastic tank which I assume was once white, rather than the rust brown color it is today. I've found a replacement from MB, a mere $556, [:0] but am not in the mood take it up the tailpipe as I obviously would if I paid that much for a simple plastic part that makes a replacement sunvisor look cheap. I've looked around at some of the parts suppliers websites but see no indication that these are available from them.
So here are my questions. Does anyone know:
:?: If it is possible to restore one of these to like new condition? (doubtful)
:?: If it is possible to purchase a new one for a reasonable price?
:?: If the earlier black ones are available?
:?: If the black (steel I assume?) ones are considered 'accepted' substitutes on a '71 model and is that a good, logical solution?
OR
[:0] Is this the color it is supposed to be?
All other thoughts and ideas are greatly appreciated. Thanks very much.
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Ed Cave
Atlanta, GA
1964 356C
1971 280SL
2002 SC430
2004 A4 3.0
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my late 71 is metal not plastic
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You can definitely find an older black one out there used and easily restore it.
Personally, I know the plastic ones are rare and "correct" and all on a late-model car, but like so many things, it's just one of the ways these cars were cheapened over time. I prefer the old brass "football." Besides, when it starts to leak, you can have its seams repaired, unlike a plastic reservoir.
Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220
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i guess i got the wrong one???
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Plastic should be production after Aug of 1970.
The metal football was started with start of 250sl production.
They were painted black, but are brass.
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Interesting points here.
My '71 280SL also has the black painted brass football expansion tank...not plastic.
But this raises a question. My 280SL has always been registered as a '71. However, the tab in the driver's door area, and the VIN, indicate the car was produced in July 1970. My MB people here tell me that anything MB makes after June is always listed as the following year model. I've always been told, and all the documents indicate, the car is a '71 model. But is it really if it was produced in July 1970?
Tom in Boise
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There are production numbers and delivery numbers .. USA cars usually use delivery , as do some Euro. This can be seen on Data card dates.
As far as part changes and production changes/mods , they use production date and/or serial #.
Thats why you have a brass tank.
I have seen threads on this go forever...some use the date the car actually gets registered , even if its actual production date was a year off....
I have a friend who swears he has a '70 250sl...
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My car is built in october 1970 and has a black tank. It is nicely restored.
Gerard Wuisman
1970 280sl
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Ed, so sorry but you have to get rid of that plastic tank. With a freshly detailed engine this thing going to stick out like a sore thumb. Go with brass and save some cash!
1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.
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Isnt there a product specifically for cleaning up white plastic containers ?
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
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Thanks to all for good response and information to my questions. I suspect I will replace the plastic one with a brass one, painted black and use the money I save for something truly worthwhile, like maybe leather interior ;)
And, for what its worth, my '71 with the plastic tank was built in September of 1970. The original window sticker confirms it is a 1971 model.
Ed Cave
Atlanta, GA
1964 356C
1971 280SL
2002 SC430
2004 A4 3.0
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My 71 280Sl was also built in sept of 1970 and has the plastic tank which looks exactly like yours?
Ken G
1971 280 SL
Silver/red
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Tom wrote:
<<But this raises a question. My 280SL has always been registered as a '71. However, the tab in the driver's door area, and the VIN, indicate the car was produced in July 1970. My MB people here tell me that anything MB makes after June is always listed as the following year model. I've always been told, and all the documents indicate, the car is a '71 model. But is it really if it was produced in July 1970?>>
Tom, if your car is a US version, was originally retailed on or after October 1, 1970 and has a serial number of ...018506 or higher, it is a US model year 1971.
Klaus
1969 280 SL
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My 71 built in early Nov. 1970(xxx22425) has the brass tank? Dont know if it's OG or not. ;) could there have been a problem with the plastic tank, and Mercedes went back to the brass, or maybe they where just using up old stock.
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Klaus -- Yes, it's a US version and my serial number is 019298, so I guess the car really is a '71.
I've wondered about this for the longest time. Thanks.
Tom in Boise
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Ed,
My car is registered as a 1971, production of June 1970, in service date of October 1970. It has the brass tank. When I bought the car in June, the black paint was still partly on the tank. I cleaned off the black that remained, and it is now displayed in all brass.
Bob
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bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320
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my car # 023654 was built in jan 71 and the metal tank looks original
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This is a perfect example of what we always see when there is a crono on a change after a certain date or ser. #. The explanation always seem to be that no one is really sure if they have the original part or not [ in most cases], but I see this so much that I would think that the production change is made at the specified date, but anything on the line gets what parts are left in stock on the line from the previous order..so, if the factory gets an order to change the coolant tanks to plastic, they may get that order on a certain date , but more than likely , the cars coming down the line still get the previous part til they run out and then go to the new change.
I doubt they throw out the brass tanks and start using the new plastic ones, but rather keep running the line til the old ones are gone/used up and then replacement starts..
This may not be the case where there is a faulty part/design change,
as they would definately want to correct this immediately and discard the previous part.
This may/would explain why documents tell us after such and such a date , we are supposed to see plastic tanks, yet 10 guys after date post they have the earlier brass ones.
Always been a mystery to me...
?????????????
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I'd like to hijack this thread to ask about what seems to be a common stress crack that occurs in the same place on just about every 230SL round, flat style tank that I have seen. It appears on the top edge of the tank body adjacent to but below the raised square section where a label was placed and is usually about 1/4 inch long, parallel to the raised edge of the square section. Looking at the tank from the front this would be at about six o'clock. I have had both of the tanks that I own repaired (soldered - they're afraid to braize there to avoid warping the tank!) at least twice and the repair only lasts for a few hundred miles. Any ideas?
- Mike Hughes -ô¿ô-
1966 230SL Auto P/S
Havanna Brown (408)
Light Beige (181)
Cream M-B Tex (121)
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Based on the responses to this posting, it almost seems like they switched from brass to plastic and then either decided it was a bad idea or found another box of brass ones sitting around. [:0]
Gerard's car (built 10/70) and Norton's car (built 11/70) both have brass tanks but mine and kgear's (both 09/70) have plastic. If everyone has their dates and numbers correct, they went from being brass to plastic and back to brass again.
As Dalton suggested, this is just the kind of stuff that keeps us Pagoda Detectives on our toes.
Ed Cave
Atlanta, GA
1964 356C
1971 280SL
2002 SC430
2004 A4 3.0
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Ed.
My friend has a 1971 280SL and also has the plastic expansion tank. I read all the post here about the switch from brass to plastic and then back again. There was a nice brass tank orginal on Ebay that I missed. I donot know if you can get a new brass expansion tank from Mercedes-Benz any more. But considering the restoration work you put into you car ,If it were mine I would buy a new expansion tank and call it part of the cost of restoring the car.
I consider the fact that you can still get this part a amazing!
Sincerely
Bob Geco
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Hughes
I'd like to hijack this thread to ask about what seems to be a common stress crack that occurs in the same place on just about every 230SL round, flat style tank that I have seen. It appears on the top edge of the tank body adjacent to but below the raised square section where a label was placed and is usually about 1/4 inch long, parallel to the raised edge of the square section. Looking at the tank from the front this would be at about six o'clock. I have had both of the tanks that I own repaired (soldered - they're afraid to braize there to avoid warping the tank!) at least twice and the repair only lasts for a few hundred miles. Any ideas?
Use 95/5 solder .. Very strong for stress joints were low temps
have to be used.
- Mike Hughes -ô¿ô-
1966 230SL Auto P/S
Havanna Brown (408)
Light Beige (181)
Cream M-B Tex (121)
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Ed,
My car was built 9/70 and came with a plastic tank-at least at the date I purchased the car. It now has a metal tank, which I installed due to my preference for the black metal tank.
I would not rely on findings that suggest metal tanks were used by the factory after the factory switched to plastic. It was likely converted ("molested"?) based on owner preference or due to failure of the plastic tank, requiring a replacement with the more abundant metal tank.
Best,
Tom
1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic (restored & enhanced)
1971 280sl Tobacco Brown (low mileage stock)
1970 280sl Deep Red (Project Car)
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<<I would not rely on findings that suggest metal tanks were used by the factory after the factory switched to plastic. It was likely converted ("molested"?) based on owner preference or due to failure of the plastic tank, requiring a replacement with the more abundant metal tank.>>
One would assume that until you get a couple of post ,as we always do, that come from Original owners that dis-prove that. That was the whole point of my post.
And so, the mystery........
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Sorry...missed the point.
1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic (restored & enhanced)
1971 280sl Tobacco Brown (low mileage stock)
1970 280sl Deep Red (Project Car)
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Tom
Actually, I agree with you that I doubt they ever went from plastic
back to brass.
My thoughts are once the plastic got to the production line, they all got plastic..and continued to get palstic. So, if one had a brass after that point in time, it got there as yours did [ which I also think is a better idea/tank.]
I just think they did not get a plastic tank as archieves dates suggest, but rather they got them when the supply of brass tanks on the line were used up...rather than a specific date...
.. but . maybe not....
I prefer to see a brass tank on ANY 113, no matter what year is was made..............
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Arthur,
Seems logical that they would use up all old stock and then use the new specification. After all, in the case of the tank, it was likely a cost saving move and only makes since to use the remaining old stock before using the new stock.
On a slightly related topic, decals changed over time and are often in different locations. Further, paint colors for torque marks on bolts were not applied uniformly in terms of color. I think we (especially me) often think that there was more consistency than actually existed. Cars built on the same day might be very similar-even identical. A month later could be a different story.
Hearing from an original owner carries a lot of weight with me and I instantly defer to what that owner says as being the definitive word on what is original. But unless that owner was the only person to service the car over the last 35 years, they have lost the chain of custody over the car and can't be 100% certain in all cases that a part, wiring arrangement, hose clamp, etc. is true to the car.
Perhaps this is a partial explanation to the original owner mystery.
Best,
Tom
1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic (restored & enhanced)
1971 280sl Tobacco Brown (low mileage stock)
1970 280sl Deep Red (Project Car)
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Is a plastic tank interchangeable with a brass tank, with out any mods?
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My one-owner '71 280 SL (built 11/70) was delivered with a brass coolant expansion tank.
Bill Greffin
Chicago
#22375
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I think we might be on to something. Bill Greffin's production number suggests a November 1970 build and he states his one owner was originally delivered with a brass tank. That makes all three 11/70 cars referenced in this thread as brass tank cars.
Both 9/70 builds (mine and Ken G's) in this post are plastic. Now I agree our control sample size is limited but it has to get you wondering. And surely no one would switch out a brass one for plastic???
Personally, I think they thought they had installed the last brass one, switched to plastic, then stumbled across a big 'ol box of misplaced brass ones and figured, "Why waste 'em?".[:0]
It also starts to border on just how much it really matters.
Ed Cave
Atlanta, GA
1964 356C
1971 280SL
2002 SC430
2004 A4 3.0
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I think we should start a sub group for brass tank 11/70 cars :D
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And just to add absolutely nothing of any use to the conversation my 230SL has the indentical stress fractures that were mentioned !
Q. Are the part numbers for these Plastic & Brass tanks actually both 113 numbers, or was one also used elsewhere ?
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
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Edition C of the 250SL-280SL parts book lists only one number for the expansion tank, 109 500 00 49, which indicates it is not a unique piece for the 113 cars. There is no mention of plastic or metal.
Jonny B
1967 250SL Auto
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I have a 1970 here and it has the plastic tank and it's an original car.
These tanks were also used on 108 280SE sedans.
Daniel G Caron
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Originally posted by Mike Hughes
I'd like to hijack this thread to ask about what seems to be a common stress crack that occurs in the same place on just about every 230SL round, flat style tank that I have seen. It appears on the top edge of the tank body adjacent to but below the raised square section where a label was placed and is usually about 1/4 inch long, parallel to the raised edge of the square section. Looking at the tank from the front this would be at about six o'clock. I have had both of the tanks that I own repaired (soldered - they're afraid to braize there to avoid warping the tank!) at least twice and the repair only lasts for a few hundred miles. Any ideas?
- Mike Hughes -ô¿ô-
1966 230SL Auto P/S
Havanna Brown (408)
Light Beige (181)
Cream M-B Tex (121)
Have a '64 with broken support, but no leak. Is this common too?
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Hi Ed,
My tank (built 1/69) is the black-painted brass one--but HDPE or LDPE plastic tanks are probably the same material as the brake fluid reservoirs. If so, unlikely to restore it. The plastic changes over time with heat and with the fluid containment. It also "outgasses" the plasticizers that add some resiliancy to the material--which leads to cracks at stress points. I don't believe anyone has found anything that will bring this plastic back to it like-new white condition. Tom Sargeant of our group even soaked his brake fluid tank in a chlorine solution for many months with no apparent change in color.
I can't help you on the next three questions--it seems as if you have done your homework and found that YES a new tank is available and NO it isn't reasonable in price, and PROBABLY the one part number has been changed to plastic. There are many parts I have bought over the past few years from MB that are only available in the latest style and in some cases this isn't correct. For example, the auto transmission filler/dipstick tube WAS yellow CAD plated, now painted black. Brake fluid reservoir WAS straight, NOW sits at an angle. Brake booster vacuum line WAS fitted with a black check valve, now white. Fuel expansion tank WAS with brass fittings, now all plastic. It goes on and on... Mercedes is more concerned with providing a working part then with pristine correctness.
If $500+ is the target price, perhaps you could investigate having this tank fabricated in brass; you'd need someone with a "donor tank" to lend you. Here's a few places from my research list to start:
http://www.ifmetalworks.com/ Custom Brass Fabrication
http://www.allradiator.com/ Supplier of Radiator Parts--might point you to a fabricator of brass tanks
http://www.macsradiator.com/index.asp Custom/Vintage Radiator Fab
http://www.calwest-radiators.com/default.html Custom/Vintage Fab
Hope this helps. I don't know if the older brass tank crossed over to other MB models--it probably did--and in that case there are probably a lot of old sedans out there rusting in the fields (you who have the fields of them know who you are ;) that have a tank you could purchase OR at least one you could borrow for fab purposes.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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Michael:
Thanks for a good, comprehensive response. I may have misled you; it is the 'correct' plastic replacement that is $556, not the brass one. As far as I can tell neither are available from anyone other than MB. Spending that kind of money on a new plastic one that will undoubtedly discolor over time seems foolish.
And although I am not in the 'Wanted to Buy' forum, rather than start this whole topic over, I will stick my neck out just this one time and ask:
Does anyone have a good restorable brass coolant tank that they are interested in selling?
No need to respond here, just email me instead, please. Thanks very much.
edcave@bellsouth.net
Ed Cave
Atlanta, GA
1964 356C
1971 280SL
2002 SC430
2004 A4 3.0
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quote:
Have a '64 with broken support, but no leak. Is this common too?
......well my '64 has a broken front support too but again no leak ! Its the support nearer the front !
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
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Ed,
I've been studying your tank picture (as one does :oops: ).
That white painted dot below the wiper motor mounting plate - should it not be a black rubber plug?
Bit off topic, sorry.
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
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Here is the answer from Gernold on the expansion tank:
The plastic tank was installed from 8-21-70 to 11-16-70 VIN 20458 to 22306 per Engelen Book. All later cars had the Brass tank. Apparently the plastic tank was a trial run to study the plastic tank issue and when the initial production run was exhausted they did not want to make any more because the 113 chassis was already planned to be stopped. The brass tank stock was then used up to the end of production.
Best,
Tom
1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic (restored & enhanced)
1971 280sl Tobacco Brown (low mileage stock)
1970 280sl Deep Red (Project Car)
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Tom:
Thanks for connecting with Gernold to confirm my suspicion that the tanks were brass, became plastic and then became brass again. I was beginning to question my own sanity.
Even before reading your post I had pretty much decided to keep the original plastic tank in the car. The more I looked at it the more I began to appreciate the patina it has attained over the past 34+ years. The coolant tank (photo in original post on this subject) has a very consistent color to it that is really quite different than the typical yellowing of the other smaller fluid containers in the engine bay and the more I've looked at it the more I've come to actually like the way it looks
Now that I realize how rare the plastic coolant tank is I am confident that my decision to keep it is well founded.
Isn't it great how something can go from an eyesore to a rich patina in the length of one thread! ;)
Ed Cave
Atlanta, GA
1964 356C
1971 280SL
2002 SC430
2004 A4 3.0
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there you go
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If you are referring to the vertical support post that bolts to a bracket under the tank, this bracket can easily vibrate loose from the tank. This seems to be common. The bracket just needs to be soldered back in place.
quote:
Originally posted by Ben
quote:
Have a '64 with broken support, but no leak. Is this common too?
......well my '64 has a broken front support too but again no leak ! Its the support nearer the front !
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
- Mike Hughes -ô¿ô-
1966 230SL Auto P/S
Havanna Brown (408)
Light Beige (181)
Cream M-B Tex (121)
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Ed,
Do you have the part number for that plastic tank?
Thanks,
Tom
1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic (restored & enhanced)
1971 280sl Tobacco Brown (low mileage stock)
1970 280sl Deep Red (Project Car)
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quote:
If you are referring to the vertical support post that bolts to a bracket under the tank, this bracket can easily vibrate loose from the tank. This seems to be common. The bracket just needs to be soldered back in place.
....yes Mike thats the one.......and thats how I repaired it !
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
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I was very impressed brass expansion tank in the picture posted by pbossel. After removing the black paint, how do you go about making it look like that?
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Hello Andy,
When I bought my 113 a few years ago, the tank was peeling and looked ugly. To make my brass tank shine, I removed it and used a brass wire wheel on my bench grinder. I then used some metal polish and manually polished it with some rags. When I could see my reflection, I stopped.... scared myself[:0]!
Now I am in the process of having the black paint put back on the tank to bring it back to its original finish...
Bob :)
bpossel (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL / '97 E320
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/bpossel/200812561449_DSCN0989.JPG"])
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Every time I see an unpainted brass tank, it makes me cringe. I have never said anything because it makes the owner happy and it's their car. But to me, it sticks out like a sore thumb and detracts from the look under the hood. When I rebuilt my engine, I stripped and polished the tank and it struck me like bling on a mini-van. So I painted it.
To each his own, but the shiny brass doesn't appear anywhere else on the car and it won't stay shiny for too many years.
If the plastic really offends your visual sensibilities, there are special plastic paints that could render it black. I painted the plastic instrument panel in an airplane and it still looked new 10 years later.
Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe